Coroners Report released - GRAPHIC CONTENT (Threads merged)

[daisy]

But what about this flumanezil thing?

 

[Beachlover]

You know, I think those were prayer beads. It would be divine intervention if they end up being the one thing that nails Murray's arse to the wall as far as time of death.

Now that would be a blessing.

 

[Beachlover]

But what about this flumanezil thing?

He should have mentioned that he gave benzos and from what I remember he did say he gave Flumazenil and no one here believed him.

I don't think it mattered cause it was too late anyway by the time it was given. I wish I understood more of the coroners report and forensic science.

 

[triniti]

You know, I think those were prayer beads. It would be divine intervention if they end up being the one thing that nails Murray's arse to the wall as far as time of death.

Yes, I also suppose that these were prayer beads.
You make excellant points...very, very good questions....and
Murray is falling into trap, no way...:clapping:

 

[Soundmind]

He should have mentioned that he gave benzos and from what I remember he did say he gave Flumazenil and no one here believed him.

I don't think it mattered cause it was too late anyway by the time it was given. I wish I understood more of the coroners report and forensic science.

yeah but they still did not find any flumazenil , we will have to see what explanation he has for the lack of flumazenil in mj's system .

 

[Beachlover]

yeah but they still did not find any flumazenil , we will have to see what explanation he has for the lack of flumazenil in mj's system .

They found it in the "Y" tubing which means he did inject it through that tubing. They found an open ampule in the room.

As I said before, I am not a forensic scientist and I don't know the full extent of everything.

I do know that from a completely scientific stand point, there are many things they might have tested for that have not been put on the report. We do know a lot of what they tested for and where they tested it, but there are a lot of other drugs that may have been in the liver that were not tested or not put on that report.

I don't know what explanations will come out if it ever goes to trial. I said once before I think it never circulated but I don't know that for sure. I don't know if it binds to the benzos and becomes 'void' on the reports. Only the forensic scientist would know this sort of stuff.

 

[Beachlover]

yeah but they still did not find any flumazenil , we will have to see what explanation he has for the lack of flumazenil in mj's system .

I don't think Murray needs to prove that. I think that part is the part of the coroner or the prosecution. It would be interesting to have been a fly on the wall in that room though....I'll tell you that much.

 

[wendy2004]

They found it in the "Y" tubing which means he did inject it through that tubing. They found an open ampule in the room.

As I said before, I am not a forensic scientist and I don't know the full extent of everything.

I do know that from a completely scientific stand point, there are many things they might have tested for that have not been put on the report. We do know a lot of what they tested for and where they tested it, but there are a lot of other drugs that may have been in the liver that were not tested or not put on that report.

I don't know what explanations will come out if it ever goes to trial. I said once before I think it never circulated but I don't know that for sure. I don't know if it binds to the benzos and becomes 'void' on the reports. Only the forensic scientist would know this sort of stuff.

A lot of other drugs? Uh...what makes you suspect that? What kind of drugs do you suspect may have been in MJ's liver? :blink:

 

[Beachlover]

I don't know what other drugs they may have tested for. They also didn't release the hair tox results.

As far as the liver goes, they didn't say how much of any of the other drugs were there either (the ones in the blood). They just didn't list the levels at all.

 

[Beachlover]

Oh, and for clarification. I am meaning that they would show continued use of Propofol or the other medications that were found at the bedside, etc. Nothing sinister here, just things that would aid them in determining length of use and I think they left these out on purpose not to give the defense any ammunition.

 

[Soundmind]

They found it in the "Y" tubing which means he did inject it through that tubing. They found an open ampule in the room.

As I said before, I am not a forensic scientist and I don't know the full extent of everything.

I do know that from a completely scientific stand point, there are many things they might have tested for that have not been put on the report. We do know a lot of what they tested for and where they tested it, but there are a lot of other drugs that may have been in the liver that were not tested or not put on that report.

I don't know what explanations will come out if it ever goes to trial. I said once before I think it never circulated but I don't know that for sure. I don't know if it binds to the benzos and becomes 'void' on the reports. Only the forensic scientist would know this sort of stuff.

yeah , it makes perfect sense :smilerolleyes: they publish only what Murray gave and withhold everything else , and you wonder why people here question you . Beachlover , you have been here for three months now , could you figure out a strategy to defend murray ? NO.

 

[AllForMJ]

Updated timeline...

1:30 am Diazepam 10 mg

2:00 am Lorazepam 2 mg IV

3:00 am Midazolam 2mg IV

5:00 am Lorazepam 2mg IV

7:30 am Midazolam 2 mg

10:40 am Propofol 25 mg

11:18 am - Phone call to Las Vegas office (31 minutes)

11:49 am - Phone call to a Las Vegas cell phone (2 minutes)

11:51 am - Phone call to Houston (3 minutes)

11:54 am - Left a voice mail message for patient named Bob Russell regarding test results (Minutes TBD)

12:05 or 12:10 pm - Murray runs downstairs and screams, "Go get Prince!" (According to Chef)

12:12 pm - Phone call to a Jackson associate at Neverland Ranch (1 minute / as being reported)

12:21 pm - 911 is called by someone other than Murray while Murray is performing CPR in an unusual way. (To hear Murray in background during 911 call, go to Youtube)

12:26 pm - Paramedics arrive at MJ's house

1:14 pm - Paramedics' approximate arrival time at UCLA Medical Center with MJ

2:26 pm - MJ pronounced deceased at the UCLA Medical Center after a team of doctors, including cardiologists, tried for more than 1 hour to resuscitate him.


NOTE: Murray would not sign death certificate

__________________________________

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION...

* June 25, 2009 was a Thursday

* Wednesday, June 24, 2009, was MJ's last rehearsal for "This Is It"

* Per MJ's dancer, Daniel Celebre, the June 24th rehearsal ended at 1:30 a.m.

* On June 25th, the dancers were all sitting in their dressing rooms ready to start rehearsals when they heard MJ had passed away.

* On June 25th, Travis heard the news about MJ while he was on his way to MJ's house to pick him up. MJ was expected at rehearsal at 1:00 p.m.

______________________________

I updated the timeline to include the voice mail message that Murray left at 11:54 am, and to include info Sloride provided on the time that MJ was expected at rehearsal on June 25th.

Also, Murray is now trying to tailor the timeline to fit his needs and that ain't cool. Each time his lawyers come out and changes his story, the situation only gets worse for him. He is painting himself into a corner. He should have been closely monitoring MJ and then MJ would still be here. Murray's biggest mistake is not the timeline. His biggest mistake was cutting MJ's life short.

 

[Soundmind]

12:12 pm - Phone call to a Jackson associate at Neverland Ranch (1 minute / as being reported

who ever told you that is a LIAR , and should be ashamed of himself/herself . That call was made to MJ's assistant at the time .

11:49 am - Phone call to a Las Vegas cell phone (2 minutes)

11:51 am - Phone call to Houston (3 minutes)

That was the voicemail betwenn 11:49, 11:51 . Bob's answer machine probably was not 100% accurate .

11:54 am - Left a voice mail message for patient named Bob Russell regarding test results (Minutes TBD)

That's the call he made to his girlfriend from Houston , it lasted 11 minutes , ended at 12:05 , then he called MJ's assistant , he was not at the mansion , he then called for Prince .

 

[Ohood]

Is it true that MJ had a swollen in his brain ??

 

[princessleia]

Is it true that MJ had a swollen in his brain ??

Yes, there was mild diffuse swelling of the brain and other things, but I don't know much about medicine so I don't know what exactly it means, from a bit of googling I think it could indicate both trauma or it could be simply the result of the brain not getting enough oxygen. Maybe someone with more medical knowledge can explain.

 

[bouee]

who ever told you that is a LIAR , and should be ashamed of himself/herself . That call was made to MJ's assistant at the time .

I had never heard about that call . Was it the call to Michael Amir Williams to get help ???

 

[bouee]

He is going to explain basic ACLS protocols and what should have been done was being done. Once the ambulance arrived he had everything he needed. There are no other drugs at the hospital that he didn't have at his disposal once they arrived.

Now, as far as why it was delayed as long as it was, I can't even imagine what he will say about that. It was too much of a delay.

What about the aortic balloon pump ?

 

[bouee]

11:18 am - Phone call to Las Vegas office (31 minutes)

11:49 am - Phone call to a Las Vegas cell phone (2 minutes)

11:51 am - Phone call to Houston (3 minutes)

11:54 am - Left a voice mail message for patient named Bob Russell regarding test results (Minutes TBD)

The serach warrants says 3 phonecalls (maybe it was phonecalls to 3 different numbers, I would have to read it again and I don't have the time right now), for 47 mn.

From 11h18 to 12h05 there are 47 mn, so according to the search warrants he was on the phone almost non stop.

 

[twinklEE]

yeah , it makes perfect sense :smilerolleyes: they publish only what Murray gave and withhold everything else , and you wonder why people here question you . Beachlover , you have been here for three months now , could you figure out a strategy to defend murray ? NO.

exactly playing devils advocate the entire time, I wish he'd go where he came from. Thruout these three months he's been trying to come up with every excuse in the book for Murray, poorly disguised as if he cares about Michael :smilerolleyes:

 

[Popescu]

12:12 pm - Phone call to a Jackson associate at Neverland Ranch (1 minute / as being reported)

who ever told you that is a LIAR , and should be ashamed of himself/herself . That call was made to MJ's assistant at the time .

Hi Soundlover, source please?

11:18 am - Phone call to Las Vegas office (31 minutes)

11:49 am - Phone call to a Las Vegas cell phone (2 minutes)

11:51 am - Phone call to Houston (3 minutes)

That was the voicemail betwenn 11:49, 11:51 . Bob's answer machine probably was not 100% accurate .

The information comes from the search warrant, which states what LAPD discovered. This is from Murray's cell phone records, and they are accurate times of both time of the calls, and of their duration. It most likely has nothing to do with the patient's answering machine. The voice mail lasts for 18 seconds.

11:54 am - Left a voice mail message for patient named Bob Russell regarding test results (Minutes TBD)

That's the call he made to his girlfriend from Houston , it lasted 11 minutes , ended at 12:05 , then he called MJ's assistant , he was not at the mansion , he then called for Prince .

This is NOT in the search warrant, unless... *and this is the point where I withhold my speculations and thoughts on this matter, since I'm not on the defense's side*

 

[daisy]

Hi Soundlover, source please?

The information comes from the search warrant, which states what LAPD discovered. This is from Murray's cell phone records, and they are accurate times of both time of the calls, and of their duration. It most likely has nothing to do with the patient's answering machine. The voice mail lasts for 18 seconds.

This is NOT in the search warrant, unless... *and this is the point where I withhold my speculations and thoughts on this matter, since I'm not on the defense's side*

I think this is serious. Remember all that this thread is public.

 

[Beachlover]

yeah , it makes perfect sense :smilerolleyes: they publish only what Murray gave and withhold everything else , and you wonder why people here question you . Beachlover , you have been here for three months now , could you figure out a strategy to defend murray ? NO.

Not sure what you are saying here. I am saying what I think and I think we don't have all the information for a reason.

I am not trying to defend Murray but when you say that Flumazenil was not given, and clearly it was found in the tubing, whats the explanation for that?

Just because you want to believe he didn't give it doesn't make it true.

 

[Beachlover]

What about the aortic balloon pump ?

What about the balloon pump? This isn't standard protocol and the hospital would not have done that first. That was a last ditch effort.

I already said 40 minutes was too long to wait.

 

[Popescu]

Beachlover, i am not attacking you in any way, but please explain the inconsistencies.
Thank you.

I didn't say they would know if he gave Propofol but they would know more about the condition of Michael and the condition of the room and the emotional state Murray was in at the time.

Pupils fixed and dilated means he was overdosed and you can still recover from this state. Hard to explain all the things they could have observed at the scene that would be helpful to the DA. As far as asystolic, this can happen within seconds too so you can't 'know' for sure when that happened.

And for the last time : "In medicine, asystole (colloquially known as flatline) is a state of no cardiac electrical activity, hence no contractions of the myocardium and no cardiac output or blood flow. Asystole is one of the conditions required for a medical practitioner to certify death." Pupils fixed and dilated mean the same thing. They worked on him for 40 minutes, because Murray insisted they do so. He was higher in rank.

What does that have to do with the 11.40 Propofol time line?

Well, thanks for the medical information here.

I had no idea.

Well, I can sit here speculating on several different reasons for delaying the time to the hospital, but I don't know if I am right.

I don't know if he had the foresight to even think about confusing people later on. Maybe he did and maybe its just a theory.

Its easy for me, many months after the event to look back and think what Murray may have been thinking but I have been in Code Blue situations myself and I don't think the same while I am in the middle of it. So...I don't know what he was thinking.

And then, you're quoting...

There is nothing to give to reverse Propofol. The treatment for not breathing and asystole (flatline) are identical. So, no, in this instance Murray witholding information didn't hurt anything.

To be honest, if they did give those drugs and still got no response, I am thinking it would not have mattered if they drove him there in 2 minutes.

 

[Soundmind]

Hi Soundlover, source please?




The information comes from the search warrant, which states what LAPD discovered. This is from Murray's cell phone records, and they are accurate times of both time of the calls, and of their duration. It most likely has nothing to do with the patient's answering machine. The voice mail lasts for 18 seconds.



This is NOT in the search warrant, unless... *and this is the point where I withhold my speculations and thoughts on this matter, since I'm not on the defense's side*

as for the call to MJ's assistant , CHERNOFF already said he called Amir , he told him he was not on the property and Murray had to leave MJ and ask for help .

the two mintues call was to Bob , whether it was a person or an answer machine on the other side , he was calling people , and he used his phone . They said THREE seperate calls that lasted 47 minutes between 11:22 and 12:05.
Bob gave them the message and he claim it was at a different time , the timing on his answering machine was probably not accurate .

 

[Popescu]

I re-re-reading the search warrant again, I'll get back to you on the calls. Sorry for mixing up your name!

Thing is, Murray ADMITTED he gave Propofol via IV drip, so buh-bye bolus theory. Page 12 of the search warrant.

 

[Beachlover]

Beachlover, i am not attacking you in any way, but please explain the inconsistencies.
Thank you.

And then, you're quoting...

Not sure what inconsistency you mean.

What I already said is that he was at the house for too long. They should have done basic ACLS immediately without delay. That part I understand; the not rushing out the door without giving those drugs first. Murray was a cardiologist and he knew to give them. The EMT's knew that too. They intubated him (got air to his lungs) which is VITAL. They gave the rescue drugs to get the heart beating.

When they had all this in place they should have left for the hospital. It should have taken 10 minutes or so, not 40. Maybe 15.

I am sure the EMT's know what happened at the scene and why there was a delay. We don't know that because we have never heard their side of the story here. Thats what I mean by we don't know everything.

This can incriminate Murray more than we know. I keep saying we don't have all the information because they don't want us to.

The interview with Murray at the police precinct was 3 hours. Do we know exactly what he said at that time? No. We only know what was on the search warrants. Not the whole conversation.

Again, I think the police know a lot more than we do. We are all being junior detectives but with limited information at our disposal.

This is why things can be so easily debated here. We don't have all the facts.

 

[Popescu]

Not sure what inconsistency you mean.

I mean that you were thanking me for the medical info, stating that you had no idea, but after a few pages, you have been in Code Blue situations?

I pointed this inconsistency earlier in this thread, you talked about ACLS after I provided the info, but you did not respond to that.

 

[daisy]

Not sure what you are saying here. I am saying what I think and I think we don't have all the information for a reason.

I am not trying to defend Murray but when you say that Flumazenil was not given, and clearly it was found in the tubing, whats the explanation for that?

Just because you want to believe he didn't give it doesn't make it true.

But I still don't understand why this would be a good explanation for Murray.

I can't imagine him saying: "Well, I really gave Michael Flumazenil, look, it's in the tubing! And I don't have any idea how it is possible that it was not discovered in Michael's system" :doh:

doesn't make sense, does it?

 

[Popescu]

as for the call to MJ's assistant , CHERNOFF already said he called Amir , he told him he was not on the property and Murray had to leave MJ and ask for help .

the two mintues call was to Bob , whether it was a person or an answer machine on the other side , he was calling people , and he used his phone . They said THREE seperate calls that lasted 47 minutes between 11:22 and 12:05.
Bob gave them the message and he claim it was at a different time , the timing on his answering machine was probably not accurate .

Yeap, the timeline is not in the search warrant, does anyone have a source for this?
Like, 11.51 (3 minutes, as reported). By whom? The LAPD definitely have them, since they had access to the doctor's cell phone records, but where do the times stated here come from?