Monster - The Great Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

[mjjesamor]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

The same way you can't see mj's soul in these photos you can't hear it on those tracks.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Speak for yourself.

 

[Garden]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

As much as his eyes or other things are not right, on the Cascio songs the husk, the timbre and the accent are not right.

OK let me tell you how it is for me at this moment Bumper...
I can't get an objective evaluation, not by myself, neither from others... and the forensic reports are not here to read.

Actually I am waiting for "an ultimate Confirmation", Bumper.
People may find that ridiculous, and that's all right.

The more that people try to convince me, the more sceptical I get, that's my character.
But I am not stubborn to the point that I'll refuse to see the evidence that I finally will need to see when it comes to the point.

I've read, listened and compared a lot...
But I am not certain yet and my final conclusion will have to wait.

The problem with me is : I think I hear MJ but I do not know for sure if I can totally trust my perception (ears and evaluation what I hear).
The big reason why I can't decide is maybe that I doubt the objectivity of "hearing"... (yes my own audition but also in general!)

I don't hear something that would be "not-Michael"...
...however I admit I do not much hear his "best known" voice and sometimes I hear an unnatural sounding vibrato.

But parts of this perceptions/interpretations could be subjective...


I guess I am waiting for legally confirmed evidence in this controversy case...
I am looking for answers that are as objective as reasonably possible...

I'll stay with the official version untill I'll know better.

And when another truth comes out... whatever it is going to be will be.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

OK let me tell you how it is for me at this moment Bumper...
I can't get an objective evaluation, not by myself, neither from others... and the forensic reports are not here to read.

Actually I am waiting for "an ultimate Confirmation", Bumper.
People may find that ridiculous, and that's all right.

The more that people try to convince me, the more sceptical I get, that's my character.
But I am not stubborn to the point that I'll refuse to see the evidence that I finally will need to see when it comes to the point.

I've read, listened and compared a lot...
But I am not certain yet and my final conclusion will have to wait.

The problem with me is : I think I hear MJ but I do not know for sure if I can totally trust my perception (ears and evaluation what I hear).
The big reason why I can't decide is maybe that I doubt the objectivity of "hearing"... (yes my own audition but also in general!)

I don't hear something that would be "not-Michael"...
...however I admit I do not much hear his "best known" voice and sometimes I hear an unnatural sounding vibrato.

But parts of this perceptions/interpretations could be subjective...


I guess I am waiting for legally confirmed evidence in this controversy case...
I am looking for answers that are as objective as reasonably possible...

I'll stay with the official version untill I'll know better.

And when another truth comes out... whatever it is going to be will be.

Either way, be the songs by him or not, we need more proof than simply an "official" statement saying "it is him".

As MJ's fans know his voice and don't recognize it, sticking blindly by the official version isn't enough.

 

[Garden]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Either way, be the songs by him or not, we need more proof than simply an "official" statement saying "it is him".

As MJ's fans know his voice and don't recognize it, sticking blindly by the official version isn't enough.

Yes and that's why this has to be taken to Court for consumer fraud by those who think (claim) it is.
Many fans think they know the truth, but that isn't enough, it has to become the official truth.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Yes and that's why this has to be taken to Court for consumer fraud by those who think it is.
Many fans think they know the truth, but that isn't enough, it has to become the official truth.

You know very well that going to court is impossible. Do you have that kind of money to fight against huge music industry machinery for years and years? Let's be realistic.

Other than the court, we have our voices to protest, because if we don't protest we become passive and submissive to whatever they release, do and make us believe.

Sorry, but we're neither cattle to follow them blindly nor cows that they could allow themselves to milk endlessly.

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

People talk about soul, diction, and pronounciation as clues why it's not MJ. For me it's the tone of voice...it's completely foreign to me (until I heard JM).

 

[donalb]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Garden - I know what you mean. It's even more challenging due to the various ad libs from other MJ songs which are included in the tracks in addition to the Michael Jackson-like music they've created. I can understand why some people strongly believe the songs are geniune in spite of the "off" vocals. I would love to hear the original tracks to help make up my mind.

 

[Garden]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

"You know very well that going to court is impossible. Do you have that kind of money to fight against huge music industry machinery for years and years? Let's be realistic."

No not 1 person (unless very rich) but more persons together can do it.

"Other than the court, we have our voices to protest, because if we don't protest we become passive and submissive to whatever they release, do and make us believe."

Yes indeed. You believe more in the massive-protest way... I don't think it is the only and the best way. The final judges don't have to be people's opinion only. Until your truth is made official, yes many will already believe you but also many will not believe you. Because audition (perception/interpretation) is not an objective thing, and that's only 1 reason among other reasons.
I want the truth for everybody. I want it to be official.

But could it be that you don't believe in laws and justice? Justice was done to Michael in 2005... why not now?

The Murray case is much much more important.

But this vocals case has its importance too.
People can get together and sue.

"Sorry, but we're neither cattle to follow them blindly nor cows that they could allow themselves to milk endlessly."

Listen, just like you I am none of those.

 

[Garden]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Garden - I know what you mean. It's even more challenging due to the various ad libs from other MJ songs which are included in the tracks in addition to the Michael Jackson-like music they've created. I can understand why some people strongly believe the songs are geniune in spite of the "off" vocals. I would love to hear the original tracks to help make up my mind.

I know about the many added adlibs donalb!
"I would love to hear the original tracks to help make up my mind."
Me too of course!

I can understand people.
But I think if you/we/they so strongly believe that you are right and that there is a fraud and you think you have some evidence, the best way is to make it official, take it to court.

The way of opinion-forming or manipulating doesn't seem to me the right way to handle this at this moment in this case. There are sufficiently non-believers now, they could organize themselves to sue for consumer fraud.

Of course, when you can convince many others from your point of view it gives you much satisfaction...

 

[donalb]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Hey Garden, I think they might be a bit of a misunderstanding here. Like you, I haven't made up my mind yet about the tracks so I am definitely not trying to convince anyone either way. I was just saying that the ad libs and the music make it more difficult for me to know whether or not the tracks are authentic because it is difficult to solely focus on the lead vocals. Perhaps, the issue will indeed end up in court one day. We will see.

Fellow Belgian resident,
Donalb

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

[size=+1]If you want "evidence" about those vocals you need to advocate for Jacksons / MJ fans vs Sony for consumer fraud case. That's the only time Sony will be forced to "prove" the authenticity of the vocals.

We all need to understand how law works and "innocent until proven guilty" concept.

As far as the legal perspective goes Sony/Estate/ Cascio's are innocent parties and this is a legit Michael Jackson album. If you are claiming the opposite (that they are lying about the vocals, the vocals are of imposters etc) the burden of proof will be on you. Sony/Estate/Cascio's do not need to prove their innocence, other side has to be able to prove their guilt.[/size]​

Statement by Ivy


My only comment:
[size=+1]This is 100% true. And the only way to go!
Do it, if you want it.
And QUIT lamenting! It's repetitive & repetitive & repetitive & repetitive & repetitive...
How long do you want to go on?
Really do something about it. Because at the moment you're only doing BLA BLA BLA![/size]

 

[Garden]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Hey Garden, I think they might be a bit of a misunderstanding here. Like you, I haven't made up my mind yet about the tracks so I am definitely not trying to convince anyone either way. I was just saying that the ad libs and the music make it more difficult for me to know whether or not the tracks are authentic because it is difficult to solely focus on the lead vocals. Perhaps, the issue will indeed end up in court one day. We will see.

Fellow Belgian resident,
Donalb

Thanks Donalb. I understand our misunderstanding. Yes, it was not clear to me what your vision was. But that was not really the point for me. Sorry if my message made a confused impression!

I used the "you" form like when you say " you don't walk outside without a coat when it's freezing". I could have said "people" instead of "you". (communication/language!!)

Nice to meet you "Fellow Belgian resident" !

 

[Garden]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

But now, and I admit I added to it, I see here a whole series of posts that actually would be better written in The Album - The Great Debate thread. There these things are discussed.
Last posts here were not specifically about Monster.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

[SIZE=+1]If you want "evidence" about those vocals you need to advocate for Jacksons / MJ fans vs Sony for consumer fraud case. That's the only time Sony will be forced to "prove" the authenticity of the vocals.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+1]We all need to understand how law works and "innocent until proven guilty" concept.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+1]As far as the legal perspective goes Sony/Estate/ Cascio's are innocent parties and this is a legit Michael Jackson album. If you are claiming the opposite (that they are lying about the vocals, the vocals are of imposters etc) the burden of proof will be on you. Sony/Estate/Cascio's do not need to prove their innocence, other side has to be able to prove their guilt.[/SIZE]​

Statement by Ivy


My only comment:
[SIZE=+1]This is 100% true. And the only way to go![/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Do it, if you want it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]And QUIT lamenting! It's repetitive & repetitive & repetitive & repetitive & repetitive...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]How long do you want to go on?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Really do something about it. Because at the moment you're only doing BLA BLA BLA![/SIZE]

Do you see the irony of your post? While you are complaining your fellow MJJC members being repetitive, you yourself repeat the same exact statement from Ivy SEVERAL times.

We remember what she said. We don't need you to remind us.

Last time I check, this thread is called "Monster - The Great DEBATE (Cascio Controversy Thread.) This is a place for people to discuss their opinions. Be it repetive, be it blah blah blah... This is a place for people to have an open discussion. This is a thread Gary created for the people who have doubts to discuss about the controversy.

If you are so sick and tired of this thread, stay away from it. There are threads in this forum that don't interest me. I feel I have nothing to add to those discussion, so I don't click on them or leave a message. If this topic no longer interests you, why you come here and even leave a message?

 

[samhabib]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Do you see the irony of your post? While you are complaining your fellow MJJC members being repetitive, you yourself repeat the same exact statement from Ivy SEVERAL times.

We remember what she said. We don't need you to remind us.

Last time I check, this thread is called "Monster - The Great DEBATE (Cascio Controversy Thread.) This is a place for people to discuss their opinions. Be it repetive, be it blah blah blah... This is a place for people to have an open discussion. This is a thread Gary created for the people who have doubts to discuss about the controversy.

If you are so sick and tired of this thread, stay away from it. There are threads in this forum that don't interest me. I feel I have nothing to add to those discussion, so I don't click on them or leave a message. If this topic no longer interests you, why you come here and even leave a message?

Well said

 

[Graf]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Do you see the irony of your post? While you are complaining your fellow MJJC members being repetitive, you yourself repeat the same exact statement from Ivy SEVERAL times.

We remember what she said. We don't need you to remind us.

Last time I check, this thread is called "Monster - The Great DEBATE (Cascio Controversy Thread.) This is a place for people to discuss their opinions. Be it repetive, be it blah blah blah... This is a place for people to have an open discussion. This is a thread Gary created for the people who have doubts to discuss about the controversy.

If you are so sick and tired of this thread, stay away from it. There are threads in this forum that don't interest me. I feel I have nothing to add to those discussion, so I don't click on them or leave a message. If this topic no longer interests you, why you come here and even leave a message?

Well said!

 

[Kapital77]

Sam, the truth is near, we must continue fighting for the MJ music legacy.

[size=+1]
We all need to understand how law works and "innocent until proven guilty" concept.

[/size]

The innocent is Michael Jackson.

Sony & Cascio are saying that Michael Jackson sung those songs and we know it´s not really truth.

 

[Kapital77]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Edit...

 

[Vlens]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

[size=+1]If you want "evidence" about those vocals you need to advocate for Jacksons / MJ fans vs Sony for consumer fraud case. That's the only time Sony will be forced to "prove" the authenticity of the vocals.

We all need to understand how law works and "innocent until proven guilty" concept.

As far as the legal perspective goes Sony/Estate/ Cascio's are innocent parties and this is a legit Michael Jackson album. If you are claiming the opposite (that they are lying about the vocals, the vocals are of imposters etc) the burden of proof will be on you. Sony/Estate/Cascio's do not need to prove their innocence, other side has to be able to prove their guilt.[/size]​

Statement by Ivy


My only comment:
[size=+1]This is 100% true. And the only way to go!
Do it, if you want it.
And QUIT lamenting! It's repetitive & repetitive & repetitive & repetitive & repetitive...
How long do you want to go on?
Really do something about it. Because at the moment you're only doing BLA BLA BLA![/size]

I agree too! We have an album with tracks many believe contain are the real thing. It's not like we are questioning things... just enjoying something from MJ.
So we want to enjoy the album, but here, on these forums, you always see the same things, ALWAYS people trying to convince us with the same video's and the same arguments... we know it already!!!

Not saying you don't have the right to doubt it, but if i read this forum 3 weeks ago or now, still the same things from the same people comes out so i miss absolutely nothing.... It can't be the doubters don't have forensic experts to check out these songs. Let's begin with breaking news, where sony has given us the raw demo ... How come nobody does this?

 

[Vlens]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Edit...

Euhm, we? Nobody of my friends, family, ... know about the controversy. They heard the songs thought, and nobody said: well, that doesn't sound like michael. And i will be glad when someone from any side has prove, but i'm still waiting.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I agree too! We have an album with tracks many believe contain are the real thing. It's not like we are questioning things... just enjoying something from MJ.
So we want to enjoy the album, but here, on these forums, you always see the same things, ALWAYS people trying to convince us with the same video's and the same arguments... we know it already!!!

Not saying you don't have the right to doubt it, but if i read this forum 3 weeks ago or now, still the same things from the same people comes out so i miss absolutely nothing.... It can't be the doubters don't have forensic experts to check out these songs. Let's begin with breaking news, where sony has given us the raw demo ... How come nobody does this?

And no one is preventing you from enjoying the album. There are threads for each song on the album, where you can share your joy with your fellow members. Those threads just happen to be less popular. But, you know what, go bump them up. Leave a message, invite other to join the discussion. There are also other controversy-free sections in this forum - the news section, the let's talk about michael section and the michael in the mirror section.

When you come to a debate thread, you should be prepared to hear debate on the controversey; hence, the namesake, debate thread. Many people are still very passionate about the issues. Don't expect the debate to end soon. If this thread becomes boring for you, you are free to visit other interesting threads in this forum.

I don't see the point of people who knowingly come to a debate thread, then complain about it.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^^ Well said, love is magical...We just need/want to get to the bottom of this...

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Well said Love is magical.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Euhm, we? Nobody of my friends, family, ... know about the controversy. They heard the songs thought, and nobody said: well, that doesn't sound like michael. And i will be glad when someone from any side has prove, but i'm still waiting.

Are you friends and family fans of Michael? If they are fans, how serious are they? Casual fans or devoted fans?

If you show the pictures posted by Bumper earlier in this thread to your friends and family? Do you think they can tell the person is a impersonator, not the real Michael Jackson?

Familiarity of Michael's voice is a very important factor.

In a total hypothetical scenario, say the record label of Usher released a song sung by a Usher impersonator. I could be very easily duped and believe that's a song by the real Usher. I like Usher, but I don't really know the characteristic of his voice.

The majority of people who bought the album don't listen to Michael on a daily basis for years. The general public know Michael's voice, but they don't really KNOW Michael's voice.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Are you friends and family fans of Michael? If they are fans, how serious are they? Casual fans or devoted fans?

If you show the pictures posted by Bumper earlier in this thread to your friends and family? Do you think they can tell the person is a impersonator, not the real Michael Jackson?

Familiarity of Michael's voice is a very important factor.

In a total hypothetical scenario, say the record label of Usher released a song sung by a Usher impersonator. I could be very easily duped and believe that's a song by the real Usher. I like Usher, but I don't really know the characteristic of his voice.

The majority of people who bought the album don't listen to Michael on a daily basis for years. The general public know Michael's voice, but they don't really KNOW Michael's voice.

That was exactly my point when I posted the pictures. I am sure that not only non-fans, but also some fans who had never seen those pictures could be duped at least by the first and the third one.

 

[love is magical]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

That was exactly my point when I posted the pictures. I am sure that not only non-fans, but also some fans who had never seen those pictures could be duped at least by the first and the third one.

I have no doubt many fans could be duped. I remember seeing some of the E'Cass pictures left by fans at the memorial. Those fans are devoted enough to attend the memorial; yet, they thought those E'Cass pictures were Michael. So, loyalty is not the key factor. Familiarity is.

Some believers find it insulting that the doubters are questioning their familiarity with Michael's voice. Actually, we don't mean harm. We don't even question the believers' devotions and loyatly. One can be the most loyal fan ever, but does he/she really know Michael's voice?

 

[Arklove]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Some believers find it insulting that the doubters are questioning their familiarity with Michael's voice. Actually, we don't mean harm. We don't even question the believers' devotions and loyatly. One can be the most loyal fan ever, but does he/she really know Michael's voice?

This....I can't describe it better...I just wish people would really take the time to understand this...

 

[samhabib]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I have no doubt many fans could be duped. I remember seeing some of the E'Cass pictures left by fans at the memorial. Those fans are devoted enough to attend the memorial; yet, they thought those E'Cass pictures were Michael. So, loyalty is not the key factor. Familiarity is.

Some believers find it insulting that the doubters are questioning their familiarity with Michael's voice. Actually, we don't mean harm. We don't even question the believers' devotions and loyatly. One can be the most loyal fan ever, but does he/she really know Michael's voice?

Indeed. One of those pictures even found it's way onto a memorial stone at Gary, Indiana where the family visited.

There are loyal fans, that I know of, who are deaf. Who are actually deaf - they cannot hear. So it's nothing to do with loyalty.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Monster - The Great Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I have no doubt many fans could be duped. I remember seeing some of the E'Cass pictures left by fans at the memorial. Those fans are devoted enough to attend the memorial; yet, they thought those E'Cass pictures were Michael. So, loyalty is not the key factor. Familiarity is.

Some believers find it insulting that the doubters are questioning their familiarity with Michael's voice. Actually, we don't mean harm. We don't even question the believers' devotions and loyatly. One can be the most loyal fan ever, but does he/she really know Michael's voice?

That's also why I attempted to open a thread regarding the mother tongue of each fan debating here. This could have helped because each language has a particular range of frequencies. Some languages don't possess as many frequencies as others, and eventually some people don't hear some frequencies (e.g. accent, intonation, the msicof the language, etc.)

But the thread was wiped out.