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Monster - The Great Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

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Re: Monster - The Great Debate

I'm not sure, but after the whole concert scandal, where they're records skipped and they couldn't continue the song, Fab and Rob had issued a statement saying they weren't the real singers, the record label and the manager of the group revealed the real singers with another album, the real singers stood in the background on the cover behind a Milli Vanilla lookalike. They were credited as the singers, group name and all, therefore, it didn't have to go to court, it was already revealed, the only thing that went to court was the consumers for their refunds from Arista.


One can assume, if someone wants to take a fraud case to court, the fraud has to be proven, same with written analysis, they compare a fraudulent letter with the real one. They then prove why the letter is fraud and sometimes, give an indication as to who it may have been forged by.

The thing is, many who've contacted these vocal analysts have been told the same thing, results can be subjective. If it's subjective, then in court they'd need more substance to prove fraud, what else would qualify, other than proving who the actual singer is?
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

Why should they regret them?

Screw the controversy. The songs themselves are amazing. I really want to hear Burn Tonight & Water.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

since even THE FANS didnt want this Cd to be no. 1 and some boycotted it, hurting sales and brand name, the estate definitely regrets it.

Some casual fans also stayed away.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

When Michael sang the word "water" in TII, I thought it just sounded like a singer calling for water. Singers and musicians use their singing voices all the time in little improvisations. I seriously doubt if the supposed "Water" song has anything to do with this little improv he did. Sheesh.

And I hope the estate will learn their lesson and lock up the Cascio tracks that remain unreleased.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

I really have no idea about what they are doing, but I wish they consider this carefully. The cascio songs, no matter what our opinions on them might be, didn't have a good impact in the fan base, and this bad impact was replicated outside the fan community.

The best way for the Estate to keep doing good business (for that is their reason to be) is to really take care of the fan base. Division is not good for us, neither for the Estate. I was very grateful to see them make a clear statement against Discovery and I was even more grateful when they acknowledged the pasion and hard work of fans. I want to see this a signal of them taking the fans opinions and actions seriously.

There has been such division, hate, anger, fights and bad words around these songs, that one can but have doubts about the use of these. Michael music always brought us together. Untill now.

And that is really sad.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

Until they can produce some sort of evidence to prove that it is really Michael on those Cascio songs, I think they should stay well away. Far too much controversy for what they're worth.
I'd much rather hear an album full of unfinished songs/demos that are obviously Michael than more controversial Cascio tracks.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

Miss_Dangerous said:
I'd much rather hear an album full of unfinished songs/demos that are obviously Michael than more controversial Cascio tracks.
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Co-signed.
I have already paid for unfinished songs, and I have no single problem to pay for any unheard unfinished songs MIchael left behind. But just as MJ left them. I don't need anybody's final touches on those. Michael left them unfinished, unfinished should they remain, imo.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Dunno if anyone's said this yet, but perhaps the reason Michael says 'stalkin' me' kind of strangely is because he says 'hauntin' me' right after, and he's trying to make them sound as similar as he can?
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Aniram said:
Dunno if anyone's said this yet, but perhaps the reason Michael says 'stalkin' me' kind of strangely is because he says 'hauntin' me' right after, and he's trying to make them sound as similar as he can?
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Because I am so interested in this I 'ld like to tell from my experience with watching and dancing to Michael, especially songs from BOTDF and INvincible (unfort can't watch the latter). I experience Michael as a singer-dancer-musician-diction-...-...-pantomime UNITY. I was never surprised when Michael made a word, a syllabe or vowel or tout court a sound.. that he made it sound different than what I heard on another song, at a specific moment in the "action".

I can't imagine the idea that Michael should sound all the time like people expect him to sound, especially when he had thrown off the harnass from OTW, Thriller and Bad singer a long time ago...
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Aniram said:
Dunno if anyone's said this yet, but perhaps the reason Michael says 'stalkin' me' kind of strangely is because he says 'hauntin' me' right after, and he's trying to make them sound as similar as he can?
Click to expand...

What is strange is that the 'stalking me' part is strangely sung only once. And that once is enough to hear that it sounds as if the singer actually was trying to obtain Michael's husk, which he fails to do. While in other parts of the song, when th esinger comes to the "stalking me" part, it sounds a bit more natural, but parallelly there's no slightest husk to be perceived. This leads me to believe that the singer is unable to sing fast songs with appropriate husk and accent in the same time.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

I'd be glad to hear more Cascio tracks, in my opinion they are Michael... not the best produced vocals but most definitely Michael.

However, not on an album, but rather released digitally.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

I think the estate should not regret to have released the Cascio tracks seeing how their Michael. I think the family being so against ruined the promotion for the CD.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
What is strange is that the 'stalking me' part is strangely sung only once. And that once is enough to hear that it sounds as if the singer actually was trying to obtain Michael's husk, which he fails to do. While in other parts of the song, when th esinger comes to the "stalking me" part, it sounds a bit more natural, but parallelly there's no slightest husk to be perceived. This leads me to believe that the singer is unable to sing fast songs with appropriate husk and accent in the same time.
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Despite the late hour I sit here with my headphones on and I listened to the "stalking me" part four times. "Stalking" he sings only 3 times if I am not missing the 4th one, but I didn't listen for counting ;). I heard nothing special the first 2 "stalking"s (hm didn't count good because also other words in that part, don't have the lyrics here now) but then I heard one "stalking" that he sings "fuller", beginning from a fuller s(h). But I don't hear any effort to create a husk that's not his. I don't see how this variation in "stalking" prooves something.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

Darth Sidious said:
since even THE FANS didnt want this Cd to be no. 1 and some boycotted it, hurting sales and brand name, the estate definitely regrets it.

Some casual fans also stayed away.
Click to expand...
Plenty of fans wanted the album to be number 1. In fact, I think it was just a vocal minority that didn't want the album to not do well.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

flutinggnee said:
When Michael sang the word "water" in TII, I thought it just sounded like a singer calling for water. Singers and musicians use their singing voices all the time in little improvisations. I seriously doubt if the supposed "Water" song has anything to do with this little improv he did. Sheesh.

And I hope the estate will learn their lesson and lock up the Cascio tracks that remain unreleased.
Click to expand...

I agree. It is like someone saying to you to "come," and you sing "come, come."
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

AnnieRUOkay89 said:
I'm not sure, but after the whole concert scandal, where they're records skipped and they couldn't continue the song, Fab and Rob had issued a statement saying they weren't the real singers, the record label and the manager of the group revealed the real singers with another album, the real singers stood in the background on the cover behind a Milli Vanilla lookalike. They were credited as the singers, group name and all, therefore, it didn't have to go to court, it was already revealed, the only thing that went to court was the consumers for their refunds from Arista.


One can assume, if someone wants to take a fraud case to court, the fraud has to be proven, same with written analysis, they compare a fraudulent letter with the real one. They then prove why the letter is fraud and sometimes, give an indication as to who it may have been forged by.

The thing is, many who've contacted these vocal analysts have been told the same thing, results can be subjective. If it's subjective, then in court they'd need more substance to prove fraud, what else would qualify, other than proving who the actual singer is?
Click to expand...

They compare a fraudulent letter with the "real" one to show the deviation from a control, isn't it? Thus, with a significant degree of deviation from the control, they can prove the letter is fradulent. But how does one go from there, to proving who forged the letter?

Assuming, they have a direct link to whoever might have presented the letter, but this presenter (the fraudulent one) is not the same as the forger (as in, the forger is a hired third party), how is one supposed to find the third party? Unless they have access to the presenter's transactions, I doubt any average civilian will be able to find the third party (once again, for all one knows, the third party could be a complete unknown, thus, even a slight indication might not help because one could end up picking the "wrong" third party and end up jeopardising the whole case).

Indeed, results from vocal analysts can be subjective, but I think the subjectivity comes from the degree of error one allows for something to be proven authentic.

I suppose it would be beneficial if one could provide additional evidence as to who the real singer may be, by comparing the results found in a Michael Jackson analysis and an impersonator analysis. Thus, either serving as a way to show the degree of similarity between an impersonator model and the controversial tracks, or showing the degree of deviation from a proper Michael Jackson model.

But just the same as before, with the presenter being Sony/The Estate, and the forger being whoever actually sang on the tracks, this task is extremely difficult, and the tactic itself could end up backfiring in the end.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

A solution could be to release them as iTunes bonuses for the next album(s), so those who want them could have them. But they shouldn't put them on the actual albums, if they want to spare themselves another controversy.

Personally, I'm curious to hear them, because I like what I've heard so far and I'd like to be able to make up my own mind about them.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

i just want to know what's wrong?
what could we do for michael?
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

Hopefully they've learned their lesson much too soon.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

I don't think they regret anything (McLain, Branca and who else). This requires people with feelings to happen. They just do business, that's all it is for them, they JUST DO.

Problem is they can't even do business right, so they may realise how stupid they are. By including the Cascio fakes they harmed the legacy of Michael Jackson both artistic-wise (he never sang like a goat, could interpret with emotion and could compose and produce songs until they sounded perfect) and sales-wise ("Michael" ain't gonna surpass 2 mill).

Not to mention they divided the fanbase (for good). Reminds me of the phrase "divide and conquer"
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

I recognise Mj in bits of the songs (for example the end of stay, bridge of breaking news etc), some of the lead vocals i cant honestly be sure. I do believe MJ was involved in the songs and so i welcome hearing what was being worked on with MJ at the cascio house in 2007. But, i would rather just one album containing all the songs called 'The unfinished sessions' or something with full notes and details as to what has been altered, where other singers are included etc.

That way fans who want to hear these tracks can, and those that dont want to can ignore the release without missing out on other MJ music.

That way when another album comes out with no cascio tracks all the fans can get behind it.

I do believe that MJs vocals are on the songs, I don't agree with fans who think that these are just songs with an impersonator singing all of it with no MJ involvement.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

They could put out one album with all the remaining Cascio tracks. That way they can finally rid themselves of the crap that's been associated with them and as suggested earlier, an online option.

The estate can't regret them too much if they haven't pulled the album yet or discontinued it. I see it quite regularly, that horrible thing. Whether it's selling or just sitting there not shifting copies (much like many actual good albums) is another question.

The thing was, I wanted it to do well. Under the circumstances it's come out as (three songs that aren't what they say they are, one mediocre remix and the claim that these are the final recordings of his lifetime) I don't want to support it. It's pretty bad that loads of people wanted to get me the album but being shocked at the fact NOOOO DON'T GET IT!!!! - they actually had it in their hand and then put it back. This is without me having my input.

That said, I'd like to hear the remaining nine to see if they're all fake. I'm not expecting much but I can always be surprised; and in this case shocked. I do hear MJ on very small parts of BN though.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

I hope they do the idea that someone mentioned by release them online. Then the people that want them can, people that don't won't and then future releases will hopefully be controversy free. :doh:
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

It would be a great shame if the songs have actually been real all along but the Estate/Sony end up being influenced by the mass negative reaction from what may well be a vocal minority (although I have no figures to hand, of course, and it's always hard to tell, not least as you never know the extent to which the non-believers are scaring away the believers on online message boards). I say this because I actually really like the Cascio songs from an independent point of view, ignoring the matter of whose vocals they are. BN and Monster have both grown on me and I've always loved KYHU.

It would be a shame not to hear them from that point of view, but then if the majority of the fans are against them, then maybe Sony/the Estate will come to the conclusion that the songs are more trouble than they're worth. I still don't get why so many people are so strongly of the opinion that they're so different from MJ's actual voice that they couldn't possibly be him. Who knows what happened in the studio? But obviously the powers that be have got many millions of MJ fans around the world they please, it's hardly just about me.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

MattyJam said:
Just to clarify, this thread isn't about your personal opinion of these songs, but about what you think the estate plan to do with the rest of them.

Do you think they will have taken onboard the opinions of the disillusioned fans and this whole thing will go down as a learning curve or do you think they will continue to stand by them and even release more Cascio tracks on future albums?

There is apparently 12 of them all in all, so someone somewhere needs to make a decision about whether the other 9 songs (including All I Need and Stay) should see the light of day or not.
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Depends what their motives are. I believe that there is a deliberate attempt to undermine Michael Jackson's legacy. I thought that when I first saw Tommy Motolla referring to himself as the 'shepard' and the 'gatekeeper' of Michael's back catalogue.

I then saw the Visions DVD and was appalled at the black borders around most of the videos. I then heard Breaking News and suspected that someone was deliberately trying to sabotage his legacy.

So does the Estate/Sony regret it? Depends on their intentions. If they are genuinely trying to do their best, then they must regret it as the feedback has been horrendous and their public image has taken a hammering. If, however, it has been a deliberate effort to undermine Michael Jackson then, no, they won't regret it.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

Arklove said:
They can go ahead and release all the songs they want....Just not on a Michael Jackson album...
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:clapping::clapping:
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

They will cause they want to destroy MJ's legacy. They leaked Breaking News to know if fans were stupid or not, they knew that fans aren't stupid. But they aren't defending the album (about the fakes for example) and not even promoting it.
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

Eric said:
Plenty of fans wanted the album to be number 1. In fact, I think it was just a vocal minority that didn't want the album to not do well.
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Well yes, but this small vocal minority did manage to get their voices out to the general public and to be honest, a number one position depends on the general public.

In my opinion it doesn't matter anymore what Sony does, because they have already ruined their chances. They screwed the most important release of the year, if not in the decade. They can't possibly clean the mess...
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

I think they should do a SEPARATE album with all the Cascio tracks for those who like to be molested in that way... :D :D :D
 
Re: Do you think the estate regret releasing the Cascio songs? Or will they continue to stand by the

samhabib said:
I believe that there is a deliberate attempt to undermine Michael Jackson's legacy
Click to expand...

This is obvious with the lack of promotion, as well...
 
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