Michael - The Great Album Debate

[SoCav]

first step outside the comparison audios - they are myopic in nature as they only focus on certain parts and certain words.

put jason malachi room 2 breath on play. close your eyes and listen till the end. forget vibrato etc and whether he sounds like michael or not. just pay attention to how he spaces his words. do you hear that he clearly separates his words? such as sometimes - you - need - to - step - outside - the - game.. continue listening the song. does it start to bug you in the end? do you get the feel that the spacing is annoying? finish the song

now play keep your head up. again don't worry about the voice , vibrato etc.. you are listening to the spacing. close your eyes. does it a lot more closely spaced? do you hear the ties the singer does? such as "shecries-s-s-sinside" listen to the end.. do you get that "easy flow" feel?

malachi - let me let go - again spacing.. do you hear the clearly separated words.

do I even have to write monster? it even sounds like it has been sung in one breath - I know it isn't and the faster up is making it feel like that.

listen to any michael jackson songs and you'll see that his words are more closely spaced and even tied to each other. for example he would be saying "ilove-e-you-u-more" like it's one word , that's what I keep calling "flow"

listen to any malachi songs and you'll see that his words are obviously spaced and his singing style sounds like " i - love - you - more" and have a stop and go feeling , lacking flow and seems like struggling

it's a overall feel you get and it's really hard to describe..

I'm hearing different techniques and different ability levels.

edited to add: you can even try justin timberlake's cry me a river and jason's acapella of it on youtube. if you compare jason's version you'll again hear that his words are more spaced then justin's are. and justin has flow and jason doesn't.

Thanks for explaining. As I said in my previous post, I really think that what you attribute to his vocal technique is mostly a matter of songwriting. I find most of the Jason Malachi songs I have heard extremely boring and part of that is due to what you describe as spacing here. A song like Let me let go for instance has such a slow, boring vocal melody. However, I do not think that is because Jason Malachi is only capable of singing in that style. It's just that whoever wrote that song is not able to pen a rhythmically interesting vocal melody.

An example of what you mention is:
http://youtu.be/w3vDkfEY5Vg#t=0m26s

But take the first line you hear here ("Let me know when he can't please you," if that's what he's singing).
http://youtu.be/RH2muJa_Ky8#t=0m48s

There are many lines in that song with a similar flow. So, from the same song, at 14 seconds:
http://youtu.be/RH2muJa_Ky8#t=0m14s

I do not see how the flow on a song like Monster is any more complicated than this. Thus, I believe Jason is perfectly capable of singing like this (perhaps he cannot deliver full songs with rhythms like this live, but he clearly can in a studio environment). It's just that his own songs are different.

Btw, I remember seeing a clip on YouTube ages ago of Jason Malachi performing a song called 'Stop Breaking My Heart'. I do not remember the song very well, but for some reason have the feeling that the 'flow' was quite similar to Monster. I just checked but could not find the song on YouTube anymore. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

 

[Arklove]

^^ @ Lovey....Exactly...The minute he sold those tracks, he betrayed Michael, in my opinion. IF they are Michael, they are in terrible shape, and the rush to register them isn't right. If Eddie is familiar with Michael's perfectionist tendencies, and his strong belief in his art and legacy, then he wouldn't have sold these tracks, but he did. He did wrong there, and I don't have any sympathy for Eddie, I just don't...

 

[StellaJackson]

The thing that gets me the most right now is the snorts. The singer makes the exact same snorting sound in several of the Cascio tracks that Jason also does in his own songs. It's the way he breathes. Yet Michael never made that snort in any music he has released in 40 years. Why for the course of 12 songs, which have no supporting evidence that they were recorded by Michael Jackson, and which didn't materialise until almost a year after his death, did Michael suddenly start snorting like Jason Cupeta? As well as sharing his vibrato, his pronounciation and his accent. And to top it off, he managed to make his voice sound 20 years younger. That, coupled with the excuses we've been given about all other takes being deleted, which has been proven to be a lie, as well as the other excuses should make anyone realise that there is something seriously wrong with these songs. Michael Jackson has the most powerful and recognisable voice in popular music, yet they had to run forensic tests to prove it was him? Disgraceful. People who believe these songs are Michael must surely realise that going ahead with their inclusion on an album, especially with all the questions being raised behind the scenes, and even more so upon the streaming of Breaking News, for which the reaction was extremely negative, was a huge mistake on the part of Sony Music. Especially when their are unquestionable and fantastic tracks like Slave To The Rhythm etc? I do wonder if the team at Sony who were behind this album weren't in actual fact just a room full of monkeys on typewriters. Actually, scrap that, it is an insult to monkeys.

 

[KingMikeJ]

As for Michael did not prefer to be filmed and Eddie is honoring a friend's wish. Do you seriously think Michael was proud of Breaking News the way it was and would have released it? I'm sorry. But, the whole album was not what Michael would have approved. We know it in our hearts. But, we let all our desire to hear "new" music justifies such posthumous releases. Michael's legacy does not depend on new music. If you think the Cascio tracks do nothing to damage Michael's catalog, that's fine. But, the Cascio tracks do nothing to honor Michael's near perfect catalog.

I don't think Michael would have wanted Breaking News, Keep Your Head Up or Monster released. I also don't think he would have wanted Hollywood Tonight, Much Too Soon, Another Day etc. released. If Eddie betrayed Michael by releasing these songs, then so did everyone else who worked on the "Michael" album.

 

[ivy]

There isn't new music. Just new production. It is the tempo of the entire songs that was increased. Not the vocals.

are you saying that there's no new music recorded? so are these people all went to Cascio's house in 2007?

Keep Your Head Up
Written by Michael Jackson, Eddie Cascio, James Porte / Published by
Mijac Music, Jab Me Music / Produced by C “Tricky” Stewart for Red Zone Entertainment, Inc., Angelikson, Michael Jackson for MJJ Productions, Inc. / Mixed by Jaycen Joshua for the Penua Project / Mix Assisted by Jesus Garnica / Background Vocals: Michael Jackson, James Porte / Additional Backing Vocals: Duawne Starling / Engineered by Brian “B-Luv” Thomas, Andrew Wuepper / Engineering Assisted by Jason Sherwood, Steven Dennis, Travis Harrington Stuart Brawley, Joe Corcoran, Drew Harris / Musicians: Jamie Wollam, Rudy Bird, Sean Hurley, Stuart Brawley, Joe Corcoran, Eddie Cascio, James Porte, Lamont “Monty” Neuble, Cameron Stone, Nicole Garcia / Drum Programming: Joe Corcoran and James Porte


Monster (Featuring 50 Cent)
Written by Michael Jackson, Eddie Cascio, James Porte / Rap Lyrics Written by Curtis Jackson / Published by Mijac Music, Jab Me Music, Curtis Jackson 50 Cent Music Publishing (admin by Universal Music Publishing) (ASCAP) / Produced by Teddy Riley, Angelikson, Michael Jackson / Mixed by Jean-Marie Horvat, Teddy Riley / Programming and Finisher: Teddy Riley / Background Vocals: Michael Jackson, James Porte / Kids’ Scream: Nigel and Naiden Maynard / Recording Engineer: Scott Elgin, Khaliq Glover AKA Khaliq-O-Vision, Quenton Gilkey (Assistant Engineer), Luis Navarro, Zachariah Redding (Assistants Engineer on the Rap) (Recorded at Boom Boom Room), Stuart Brawley, Glen Marchese, Joe Corcoran, Drew Harris / Rap Performed by 50 Cent courtesy of Shady/Aftermath/Interscope Records / Musicians: Rudy Bird, Joe Corcoran, Eddie Cascio, Stuart Brawley, Cameron Stone, Sharon Jackson, Orianthi courtesy of Geffen Records



Breaking News
Written by Michael Jackson, Eddie Cascio, James Porte / Published by Mijac Music, Jab Me Music / Produced by Teddy Riley, Angelikson, Michael Jackson / Mixed by Jean-Marie Horvat, Teddy Riley / Programming and Finisher: Teddy Riley / Recording Engineer: Scott Elgin, Khaliq Glover AKA Khaliq-O-Vision, Stuart Brawley, Glen Marchese, Joe Corcoran, Drew Harris / Assistant Engineer: Quenton Gilkey / String Session Recording Engineer: Reggie Dozer / String Session Assistant Engineer: Brandon Datoli / Voiceover Engineers: Myron Chandler And Dave Hampton / String Session: The Benjamin Wright Orchestra / Arranged and Conducted By Benjamin Wright / Musicians: James Porte, Stuart Brawley, Eddie Cascio, Joe Corcoran / Voice Talents: Stuart Brawley, Sandy Orkin, Stacey Michaels, Michael Lefevre, Lisa Orkin / Voiceover Producer: Michael Lefevre

 

[StellaJackson]

I'm talking about different melodies.

 

[Pentum]

I think Dorian is talking about what I called as "flow" before by saying "keeping up with the song"...

Pentum lets try something. From Monster. please tell me what lines are pasted over each other. tell me the cuts and where and how they are pasted over

You can look at them coming out the walls
You can look at them climbing out the bushes
You can find them when the letter’s bout to fall
He be waiting with his camera on focus

Everywhere you seem to turn
there’s a monster
When you look up in the air there’s a monster
Paparazzi got you scared like a monster, monster, monster

same from kyhu

She's working two jobs, keeping alive,
She works in a restaurant night and day,
She waits her life away,
She wipes her tears away.

Nice of you to pick these specific parts where it is most likely no lines overlapping, of course. Don't forget that Monster is sped up by + 6. Speed it down by - 6 and your "flow" disappears.
And flow in KYHU? Really? It's just ordinary singing... Where's the "flow" in Soldier Boy? I'm not the only one not buying this "keeping up with the song" excuse in this thread. Listen to all of Jason's songs, I'm sure you'll find a few where he doesn't "chop up words".

Remember that the Cascio songs are written by differenet people than Jason's former work. In Jason's songs, he just sings the songs like they first were given to him. Listen to Bigger Man and You Don't Have 2 Go writer's demo, you'll see that Jason sings exactly like the writer sings it. Maybe James Porte sung differently than the guy writing songs for Jason did, so Jason just changed his "flow"?

Again, I don't buy it.

Anyway, let's see. ()= overlapped.


ALL I NEED


"They must get another chance (we can do it again)"

"We draw closeee (closer and closer)"

"Go take a chance (and even though)"

"Even though (getting close)"

"Even though (we're almost there)"


MONSTER


"Within all you give, haaa (you give em your all)"

"Dont you, dont you like it (haaaaaa-aaaa, say you wanna be a star)"

"You wanna be a star (oooooh)"


STAY


"Do you really wanna stay (we can take it slow)"

"Do you wanna walk away (we can let it go)"

"Byeeeee (I'll be standing in the rain in case you change your mind)"

"I'll be standing in the rain in case you change your mind (She never thought she'd be here waiting on me)"

"hooo-ooooh (when you're in need)"

"I'll be standing in the rain in case you change your mind (Anything, oh, anything)"


BURN 2 NITE


"If we can drown again (If you can, touch me again)"

"My sole desire (A-cant nobody stop the thing we got)"

"It makes you wonder (a friend of mine)"

"Baby why play me like a toy (When you say, take me again)"


SOLDIER BOY


"Til he finds himself a (VIC) -tim of the game"

"Then leave you delirious (Hee-hee-hee)"

"Their mine (Dah, they leave you delirious)"


KEEP YOUR HEAD UP


Keeping a line (she works in a resturant night and day)"

She works in a resturant night and day (she waits her life away)"

"She wipes the tears away (she cries inside)"

"She cries inside (everytime she feels this way)"

"Everytime she feels this way (and she's dying inside)"

"I wish that love would come today (All you need is love)"

"Just give yourself a chance, find the circumstance (rise up to the game)"


BREAKING NEWS


"Just when you thought he was done (he comes to give it again)"

"He comes to give it again (they could put around the world today)"

"They could put around the world today (he wanna write my obituary)"

"You're thinking of, you're just indulge (just in indulge)"


WATER (and we only got a snippet or two - WOW)


"I don't wanna leave my baby alone (won't you leave us alone)"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Looks like I was right. There is a lot of copy pasted lines (overlapping) in the Cascio songs. I can safely say that this also happens a lot in the rest of the unleaked songs, and I didn't even mention the copy pasted words that are repeated in the songs.

Like:

"You can look at them coming out the walls
You can look at them climbing out the bushes Same with"

"He's like an animal
just like an animal"

"He's dragging you down like a monster
He's keeping you down like a monster"

The "Why"'s towards the end, the "me"'s towards and even more. And this is just in Monster (thanks to Geso for finding this a long time ago).

 

[Arklove]

I don't think Michael would have wanted Breaking News, Keep Your Head Up or Monster released. I also don't think he would have wanted Hollywood Tonight, Much Too Soon, Another Day etc. released. If Eddie betrayed Michael by releasing these songs, then so did everyone else who worked on the "Michael" album.

Perhaps you're right...Although there is a massive difference in the way those songs sound....HT, AD, BTM, and MTS all do not have questionable vocals and were finished with some dignity at least (besides Teddy's changing of the bridge in HT which was disgraceful in my opinion)....They are all Michael Jackson without a doubt...I don't believe Michael would have wanted songs that make him sound like a completely different person, an inferior artist and ultimately cause the type of controversy and numerous questions that has occurred.

If they can't treat his work with some respect, then I don't believe they should be released. Period. If Teddy were to have left HT alone, and used Taryll to recite MJ's original bridge, then it would have been more acceptable...Do it right and at least follow Michael's path, if he left one....Don't make something out of nothing....

 

[KingMikeJ]

Perhaps you're right...Although there is a massive difference in the way those songs sound....HT, AD, BTM, and MTS all do not have questionable vocals and were finished with some dignity at least (besides Teddy's changing of the bridge in HT which was disgraceful in my opinion)....They are all Michael Jackson without a doubt...I don't believe Michael would have wanted songs that make him sound like a completely different person, an inferior artist and ultimately cause the type of controversy and numerous questions that has occurred.

If they can't treat his work with some respect, then I don't believe they should be released. Period. If Teddy were to have left HT alone, and used Taryll to recite MJ's original bridge, then it would have been more acceptable...Do it right and at least follow Michael's path, if he left one....Don't make something out of nothing....

I agree, I wish the "Michael" album was never released. It was a lot more fun here before everyone was debating vocal authenticity. Was it worth it for 8 new songs (I'm not counting HMH and TWYLM)? I don't think so.

 

[Arklove]

I agree, I wish the "Michael" album was never released. It was a lot more fun here before everyone was debating vocal authenticity. Was it worth it for 8 new songs (I'm not counting HMH and TWYLM)? I don't think so.

I agree...it's not just the controversy and the fighting among fans...It's more for Michael's legacy and what he would have wanted...Yes, I know we all don't know what he would have wanted or not, but this is all just judging all past things he's said, done, his habits in the studio and just his overall mantra regarding his own art and legacy....It was his life and to have people tampering with his hard work is hard to swallow....I just wish some of these things could have been done with a bit more love, respect, and follow his path a bit more...These are producers who esteem themselves that they've worked with Michael in the studio and they are so proud and honoured..So, what I'd like to know is: If they are so proud and honoured to have worked with Michael, what exactly did that teach them then? What did that experience do for them? Because it doesn't show in the work they've released since he's died...At the end of the day, it's all words...If they brought anything back from their experience working with Michael, it would show in the love and care they put forth in the work they submit to release posthumously.

 

[dam2040]

And in all fairness, the whole thing about the song takes being destroyed was put through ONLY by Taryll Jackson. No-one else has supported that claim and there is no evidence to suggest that what he said was true.

Where are they then? If they do exist that is,

 

[Jesta]

Where are they then?

I don't know. A song vault, maybe? Heck, Eddie might have them personally. Even Taryll's claim may be true. I'm just saying that just because it's said by Taryll doesn't make it the truth. He's just one person in all of this.

 

[love is magical]

I don't think Michael would have wanted Breaking News, Keep Your Head Up or Monster released. I also don't think he would have wanted Hollywood Tonight, Much Too Soon, Another Day etc. released. If Eddie betrayed Michael by releasing these songs, then so did everyone else who worked on the "Michael" album.

In a sense, yes. No one is really doing what Michael would have wanted. As much as I love TII, deep in my heart, I feel guilty about it. Do I think Michael would have approved to have his rehearsal clips be released in such way? Not in a million years. He's all for creating magic. By showing us all the behind-the-scenes, the magic is somewhat taken away.

And, just becasue everyone else is releasing Michael's unreleased music doesn't make it more okay for Eddie to release those not-so-up-there demos.

 

[dam2040]

I don't know. A song vault, maybe? Heck, Eddie might have them personally. Even Taryll's claim may be true. I'm just saying that just because it's said by Taryll doesn't make it the truth. He's just one person in all of this.

True very true although I would probably trust Taryll over Eddie given whats happened

 

[dam2040]

In a sense, yes. No one is really doing what Michael would have wanted. As much as I love TII, deep in my heart, I feel guilty about it. Do I think Michael would have approved to have his rehearsal clips be released in such way? Not in a million years. He's all for creating magic. By showing us all the behind-the-scenes, the magic is somewhat taken away.

And, just becasue everyone else is releasing Michael's unreleased music doesn't make it more okay for Eddie to release those not-so-up-there demos.

I agree 1000000% It's the same with the DWT rehearsals

 

[Jesta]

True very true although I would probably trust Taryll over Eddie given whats happened

Fair enough, I'm just annoyed that some people take Taryll's word as the truth when he himself has not really given "evidence" in a true sense to back up his claims. Therefore, in my opinion, they're as baseless as the claims from people like Teddy and Eddie.

 

[SoCav]

In a sense, yes. No one is really doing what Michael would have wanted. As much as I love TII, deep in my heart, I feel guilty about it. Do I think Michael would have approved to have his rehearsal clips be released in such way? Not in a million years. He's all for creating magic. By showing us all the behind-the-scenes, the magic is somewhat taken away.

I agree that it is very unlikely that he would have released this if he were alive. We all know about his perfectionism, his desire to create magic as you say. But do we really know what Michael would have wanted to happen had he known that he would pass away at such a tragically young age? This can make a huge difference of course. Would he still not release it if he knew the documentary would help a lot of his fans in dealing with his passing, for example? I guess none of us will ever know...

By the way, I would not say Michael was necessarily against releasing demos/unfinished material. Look at the Ultimate Collection, it even contains demos to songs we had never heard before. Some songs have hardly any lyrics and Michael is just da-da-dee-dee-dee-ing along. Of course the major difference with the Michael album is that these songs were left untouched and were presented as demos. I just wish the work that is still to be released will also be untouched or that at least the original versions are released alongside the tampered-with versions. I guess there's only a small chance of that happening though..

 

[dam2040]

Fair enough, I'm just annoyed that some people take Taryll's word as the truth when he himself has not really given "evidence" in a true sense to back up his claims. Therefore, in my opinion, they're as baseless as the claims from people like Teddy and Eddie.

I agree, but what evidence could Taryll give?

 

[Arklove]

I just don't think it's too much for us to ask that posthumously, Michael's work be more respected. That's it. I don't necessarily believe his work should sit in a vault collecting dust...These works can help carry on his legacy and for his children. But it seems that Sony/Estate is just out to make the $$$ and then Michael's art and respect for it gets put on the back burner. That 'nature of posthumous release' is only a reality because people have dollar signs in their eyes and not respect for the artist's work...This in no way means we have to accept it, and if they want to continue to treat his work like this, then they won't be seeing much dollar signs in the long run, because you have plenty of fans who absolutely do not agree with this. So they lose on those sales when they could prevent that by releasing things of a respectful nature in done in a respectful way. It's not hard, because it's been proven it can be done the right way.

 

[dam2040]

^^^ Exactly. Imagine if there was no debate at all the sales of Michael would have gone up, Not amazingly but still

 

[MusicMan26]

If Eddie were to release some kind of proof that it is Michael, I would not have any bad feelings towards him. However, by not showing anything (and other questionable things like taking down the comparison clips) it only gives more credibility to my believe that it is Jason singing.

 

[analogue]

Taking down those comparsion clips further proves to me that those songs are fake, because it makes it look as i they got something to hide . If they say it is Michael singing then they shouldn't feel threatened by those comparison clips.

 

[dam2040]

^^ Exactly. Believers,why would they if they were real??

 

[KingMikeJ]

^^ Exactly. Believers,why would they if they were real??

For fun. :dancin:

 

[StellaJackson]

Even clips that didn't use Cascio material were taken down by the same people. For example, Tpi uploaded snippets from Beat It and such that he had melodyned in order to prove the notion that the vibrato was caused by melodyne was a lie. They were taken down too.

 

[KingMikeJ]

^Beat it was removed? That proves that Beat It features Jason Malachi, not Michael.

 

[StellaJackson]

^Beat it was removed? That proves that Beat It features Jason Malachi, not Michael.

It was removed because it proved the melodyne story to be untrue.

 

[KingMikeJ]

It was removed because it proved the melodyne story to be untrue.

Oh, I understand. So I'm guessing Eddie told you why it was removed then?

 

[StellaJackson]

Oh, I understand. So I'm guessing Eddie told you why it was removed then?

It was removed by jabme music. What other reason would they remove it? They went after anything that questioned the tracks. It is Brad Roberts, on behalf on jabme music that deals with that kind of thing. Nothing to do with Eddie.

 

[KingMikeJ]

It was removed by jabme music. What other reason would they remove it? They went after anything that questioned the tracks. It is Brad Roberts, on behalf on jabme music that deals with that kind of thing. Nothing to do with Eddie.

Sorry, my mistake. How did Brad Roberts tell you the reason that he deleted it? Did you email him and ask?