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Murray Trial- Day 15 -October 21st

elusive moonwalker said:
My only concern re the missing iv is if u have a jurror thats of the opinion that if u cant physically produce the missing i.v line then im abit concerend about saying yes this is what happened. of course theres lots of other evidence that supports the iv been used and u have the testimony of murray hiding other evidence so its certainly believable that murray took the iv line. but u just try to look at all angles cause u can see the defence doing an oj interms of the glove not fitting ie there was no iv line found
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In OJ's case the glove literally did not fit. In this case you have one side saying that there was a drip however there is no line. You have the other side saying that the guy self injected but there are no prints on the bottles or anything for that matter. I think boil down two what story makes the most sense and is most likely to have happened and what makes the most sense
 
bouee said:
Showing that there had to be a spike, because of the tear in the propofol bottle. Then if there was a spike, there was a vented tube. The saline tube was not vented, had no propofol in it. So there was another tube, and it's gone. The way I understood Chernoff questions yesterday, I think we had a Flanagan moment : he got Dr Shafer to demonstrate that there had to be another tube. Chernoff asked too many questions. He was not as good as Flanagan, Flanagan is a lot clearer when he shoots his own theories, but hopefully Chernoff is getting there ...
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but remember that the defence claim that no iv was used at all. so as i asked earlier wrre there any other dip bottles found that had needle marks that the defence could say look this is the bottle murray used
 
If this jury finds Conrad Murray innocent then I am afraid a dangerous precedent will have been set and somebody else will die at home and that doctor will get off too. They need to nip this in the bud now.
 
I cant see how they will aquit. i noticed a few days back the judge gave the lawyers his instructions for the jury. do the lawyers get to have an opinion on the wording of it?
 
elusive moonwalker said:
but remember that the defence claim that no iv was used at all. so as i asked earlier wrre there any other dip bottles found that had needle marks that the defence could say look this is the bottle murray used
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The syringe tested positive for propofol (both syringes ? I don't remember), and there was a small empty 20ml vial of propofol on the floor. So yes, they could say that. But what was that other empty 100ml bottle with the tear doing there ?
 
Ok thanks. i guess the could say murray used that previously but why would u leave an empty bottle in the bag for days on end. the 20 vial was the one murray used to induce. so where was the one mj used? if there were no others then how can mj sekf injected
 
elusive moonwalker said:
Ok thanks. i guess the could say murray used that previously but why would u leave an empty bottle in the bag for days on end. the 20 vial was the one murray used to induce. so where was the one mj used? if there were no others then how can mj sekf injected
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Ithink 20ml = 200mg, Murray said 25mg, so according to Murray's lies there was 175 mg left.

Probably the reason why the defense goes crazy when they hear the word "vented tube".

And remember Dr Shafer scenarios about self injection, and possibly several self injections. Basically, in simple words, he was saying that self injection couldn't kill and leave such a concentration in the blood. To achieve this, according to his calculations, you need to keep injecting propofol before the patient wakes up.

Edit : at some point wether it was on previous nights or on 25th, the bottle with the tear was used. Where is the tube that goes with the tear ?

Milka posted a picture of Murray arriving at UCLA earlier in this thread, when you look at it, it's easy to have an idea where it could have been.
 
bouee said:
Milka posted a picture of Murray arriving at UCLA earlier in this thread, when you look at it, it's easy to have an idea where it could have been.
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Yeah, pretty easy to figure out where that tubing went? And once Murray left the hospital? Into a dumpster it goes. I wonder what ELSE was in those pockets? :ph34r:
 
Thanks bouee. you know i hate these days off cause it gives u to much time to think and to create senarios. i think i think way to much lol
 
elusive moonwalker said:
Thanks bouee. you know i hate these days off cause it gives u to much time to think and to create senarios. i think i think way to much lol
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Welcome , it's good to have day off after Chernoff, it takes time to sort out his mess...
 
So what concentration would be caused by 175? obviously not high enough according to shaffer and the max was 100 cause of the size of the syringe. did both syringes had lidocaine in them which reduces the amount further
 
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bouee said:
Milka posted a picture of Murray arriving at UCLA earlier in this thread, when you look at it, it's easy to have an idea where it could have been.
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The left pocket looks pretty "stuffed" and pretty heavy. Of course we don't know what's in there, but one can always assume ... also, it at least shows that these pockets are huge.
 
About the documentation (going to something simpler for my poor tired brain) logically murray wouldn't keep records. He'd be a fool to write down doing something so dangerous and reckless and provide written proof of what was going on. Why should he? Standard of care be damned. If he got away with this 'treatment' of Michael, the last thing he would want is anything that could fall into other hands. So to me it makes sense he would keep no records. When you're doing something wrong, you conceal it, not document it.
 
Exactly. he didnt want to tell the medics etc. let alone leave a paper trail.
 
cinzia said:
About the documentation (going to something simpler for my poor tired brain) logically murray wouldn't keep records. He'd be a fool to write down doing something so dangerous and reckless and provide written proof of what was going on. Why should he? Standard of care be damned. If he got away with this 'treatment' of Michael, the last thing he would want is anything that could fall into other hands. So to me it makes sense he would keep no records. When you're doing something wrong, you conceal it, not document it.
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Yes, that is exactly why there are no records. He was basically acting like a drug dealer (not saying that Michael was an addict, Murray just gave him all that stuff) and not like a doctor. Drug dealers don't leave paper trails.

P. S. Same thought, elusive - I hope the jury sees this too, it's very obvious to us here.
 
Milka said:
The left pocket looks pretty "stuffed" and pretty heavy. Of course we don't know what's in there, but one can always assume ... also, it at least shows that these pockets are huge.
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I agree, these pockets are huge.... The right pocket also looks like ... there's something there, but yes, the left pocket is pretty obvious, a lot easier to see on the court ovorhead projector
 
Milka said:
The left pocket looks pretty "stuffed" and pretty heavy. Of course we don't know what's in there, but one can always assume ... also, it at least shows that these pockets are huge.
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Almost anything could be in there? I.V. tubing, empty bottles of propofol, a land-line phone or two, and a notebook of incredibly damning MEDICAL RECORDS?

Maybe the LAPD should have collected this man's PANTS, as a a part of the evidence?
 
elusive moonwalker said:
So what concentration would be caused by 175? obviously not high enough according to shaffer and the max was 100 cause of the size of the syringe. did both syringes had lidocaine in them which reduces the amount further
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exactly, the syringe can hold 100mg maximum, so Dr Shafer didn't try a scenario with a higher number. His scenario was assuming there was no lidocaine in the syringe. According to him, even that wouldn't have killed Michael and left the concentration that was found.

So according to Dr Shafer, even if the syringe was ready, in the port, and Michael only had to push the plunger without leaving fingerprints, it didn't happen.
Makes you wonder why the defense doesn't want to hear about an infusion. We'll see what Dr White has to say, or if Chernoff adresses this in his cross, so far he hasn't asked anything about this scenario

I don't remember if both syringes tested positive for propofol
 
bouee said:
I agree, these pockets are huge.... The right pocket also looks like ... there's something there, but yes, the left pocket is pretty obvious, a lot easier to see on the court ovorhead projector
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Of course I'm just speculating and we will never know what was in there - but especially the left pocket looks quite "bulky". Don't know how to explain this, like when you put a lot of used tissues into a pocket. That's also what I would expect from a tubing, if you roll it up or just "squeeze" it together and put it into a pocket and it will then get more "bulky" again.
 
Yes Milka, I think you're speculating right, one of the phones, or both, are in the right pocket (pure speculation on my part)
 
Yes a lot of speculations.

Walgren knows what he must do to send Murray in jail. He already done the job in fact, Dr Schafer, Dr Steinberg and Dr Kamanger explained everything.

Walgren can still cross Dr Schafer. So next week after Dr Schafer, it gonna be all the stupid witnesses of the defence.

I hope it will be finish next thursday or friday, and after verdict!

GUILTY.
 
Autumn II said:
Almost anything could be in there? I.V. tubing, empty bottles of propofol, a land-line phone or two, and a notebook of incredibly damning MEDICAL RECORDS?

Maybe the LAPD should have collected this man's PANTS, as a a part of the evidence?
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Yes indeed and if cm had kept any records I doubt he would have left them in Michael's bedroom when he departed every day...he'd take them with him. IF he kept any sort of record I don't imagine it would be much more than X mg of drug Y at such and such time so it wouldn't require more than a small notebook. It would be ironical if he in fact did have some documentation which he thought would support his defense but now can't produce it because he threw it out!
As for the IV tubing, I kinda think he would have ditched it somewhere in the hospital. Go to the bathroom, put it in the trash, step into an empty ER room and put it in the biohazard trash...less risk than putting it in a dumpster. But it doesn't matter...it is gone. And very clever too to get rid of it. So he might have been in a panic but was still able to think how to save his skin. Or was the panicked appearance an act. Hmmm...
 
If this has been discussed I am sorry. I haven't been able to read the whole thread. I loved how Dr Shafer answered Chernoff when he said everything you have said is just your opinion. Dr Shafer says I believe I stated my name and that is a fact. But yes it is my opinion that lying to the staff at UCLA Medical Center is wrong.
 
I just manage to watch day 15 trial today. Seems like defence did not anywhere in challenging the science therefore, they attack Dr Shaffer. Dr Shaffer is very professional and to me appear very likeable and trustworthy.

The only dent the defence made is try to make it look like Dr Shaffer has a personal agenda trying to discredit Dr White which I don't think was his intention. He is truly disappointed with that Dr White advocated that MJ swallowed propofol. Walgren need to during redirect let Dr Shaffer read the whole paragraph of Dr White's letter. In addition, when defence is ridiculing Dr Shaffer that he undertake the human study to swallow propofol (seeming to imply again like Dr Shaffer was just doing it to ridicule Dr White), he needs to have Walgren re-direct and explain that he is doing the human trial just to be able to have data to support his advocating that FDA should not make propofol a control substance because of 1 person stupid action (Murray). He even swallowed 20mg of propofol before having the volunteer doing so just point to his believe. This is because FDA will only accept cold hard fact and data on human and not pigs, dogs, rats. This is important so as to erase the portrayal that defence is trying to paint Dr Shaffer as being perhaps "ungrateful" and trying to belittle Dr White, which is not true at all.
 
Autumn II said:
Maybe the LAPD should have collected this man's PANTS, as a a part of the evidence?
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Ha you have something here^^. If that happened we would not be hearing all these defense theories.

I remember sometime around 2009 someone suggested in a thread that they think Muarry knew Michael would not keep him, so he began giving him benzos to make him dependent on them. He could use this to pressure Michael to keep him on to help him with the problem. Sounds like a horrible plan, but after hearing Shaffer say that Muarry gave Michael the 2 drugs that have the same medical effect, my mind is straying to that possibility.
 
I believe the same thing. I think Murray was intentionally trying to get MJ addicted in order to keep himself on the payroll. I think I remember one of his girlfriends' saying that Murray told her that MJ was probably 'really missing him right now'. I believe it was Sade Anding. Murray was obviously trying to impress her
 
^^ Yeah I remember she did say that. I wonder what else Muarry said about his patient to others. He definitely was trying to impress these women by showing he had an important client, so it makes sense that he would do anything to keep that job. After hearing the expert testimony, I have come to the conclusion that all the actions he took, were planned: leaving Michael alone, not taking notes, not calling 911, not giving information, etc.
 
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