Michael - The Great Album Debate

[Chamife]

Some people have asked me whether I hear MJ on those tracks now, and I absolutely do : it's obviously MJ. It's all psychological : if the three Cascio tracks had come out on Invincible, nobody would be claiming it's not MJ singing. Which is not to say people would not be complaining about the quality of the vocals, which is a different issue. Are the vocals MJ's? Yes. Are they good MJ vocals? Not really, altough it depends a bit on the song.

No, I miss his musicality, which he had until the end. Little things that aren't there that should be there or things that are there, but shouldn't be there. Maybe nuances sometimes, but that makes all the difference.

We've talked about these differences very often.

 

[T.N.A.]

Some people have asked me whether I hear MJ on those tracks now, and I absolutely do : it's obviously MJ. It's all psychological.

Of course it's psychological. Pretty much everything is psychological. Especially when it comes to believing something. When you're told something that you're supposed to believe and regard as true, usually you're also given a couple of rationalizations and explanations for why you should either believe it or not. Your brain's immediate reaction is to believe the hypothesis that makes more sense, and not the one that seems rather 'improbable'. Your brain will basically try to chose the 'easy way' by going: "that makes more sense so it must be true".

'How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?' (Sherlock Holmes)

Now, what you deem as 'impossible is obviously up for debate...

 

[love is magical]

I don't remember who raised this point. But, I think it's very telling.

His/her point is somewhat like the following:

It's puzzling to hear that if Keep Your Head Up is put side-by-side with Butterflies and Speechless. The vocals of the three songs would sound so consistent that there is no doubt they are sung by the same vocalist.

Yet, if Keep Your Head Up is put side-by-side with a Jason Malachi song. The vocals of the songs would sound so inconsistent that there is no doubt they are sung by different vocalists.

That person must have a pair of very good ears in order to come up with the above conclusion. Or, it really comes down to our minds playing tricks with us...

For me, the quality of the vocals in Keep Your Head Up is closer to that of an amateur, than to that of one of the best vocalists of all time.

 

[love is magical]

i haven't post much here but thought i'd share this.
when BN first came out i was bussy with college and wasn't much online. the info i got was from MJFC where at the time was the only place i lurked for info and posted when i had time. before BN there was NO debates about the songs being faked. i listend to the song and actually LIKED it. but something was OFF. i'm tone-deaf and new to MJs voice, but the fact that he says his name in the song was odd to me. but as a fairly new fan who was i to criticize? i posted about liking it on FB and got nasty comment about it being fake.

i got on forums to see what was going on. both sids had strong arguments. i was confused. i told myself Soney wouldn't, Casico wouln't and the estate wouldn't! after listening more to MJ these songs sounds odder. are they fake? IDK! but i do believe MJ's voice (if it's his) is tampered with one way or another.

Thanks for sharing. I wish more people could share how they felt the first time they heard Breaking News, especially the people who didn't know anything of the controversy prior to listening to Breaking News for the first time, as these are the people who were free from the bias (or, seed of doubt).

P.S. Please excuse my DP. This forum simply doesn't like to be opened with Internet Explorer.

 

[Arklove]

For me, the quality of the vocals in Keep Your Head Up is closer to that of an amateur, than to that of one of the best vocalists of all time.

I agree....KYHU's vocals do sound amateur...(It's even worse in Fall in Love) ..That's one of the reasons why it's difficult to believe it's Michael...Even when he wasn't TRYING, he sounded professional...That's why he had a natural talent. As we've seen Michael in court, walking down the street, singing out spontaneously in TII...It all sounded effortless....The Cascio songs sound more forced and struggled, and don't showcase that same degree of effortless skill and 40 some years of experience....That's just my opinion...

 

[Garden]

Some people have asked me whether I hear MJ on those tracks now, and I absolutely do : it's obviously MJ. It's all psychological : if the three Cascio tracks had come out on Invincible, nobody would be claiming it's not MJ singing. Which is not to say people would not be complaining about the quality of the vocals, which is a different issue. Are the vocals MJ's? Yes. Are they good MJ vocals? Not really, altough it depends a bit on the song.

I hear 3 things here, 3 parts : a psychological, a technical (vocals/voices) and the aspect of time. I agree these 3 parts played their respective roll. About the vocals being MJ's. I think I hear his voice.. and moments when I'm not sure. Explanations that I read like the voice being not one but layers of voices to complete incomplete or weak vocals here and there... I think it could be a plausible thing to have happened. But I don't know anything of these technical stuff. Only it sounds plausible to me and in some circumstances I feel it can be acceptible. ^^^^^^@ Love is Magical, Yes Best Of Joy and Much Too Soon are so beautifull and intimit

 

[Arklove]

I hear 3 things here, 3 parts : a psychological, a technical (vocals/voices) and the aspect of time. I agree these 3 parts played their respective roll. About the vocals being MJ's. I think I hear his voice.. and moments when I'm not sure. Explanations that I read like the voice being not one but layers of voices to complete incomplete or weak vocals here and there... I think it could be a plausible thing to have happened. But I don't know anything of these technical stuff. Only it sounds plausible to me and in some circumstances I feel it can be acceptible.

I understand what you're saying...I agree that in some circumstances, it's acceptable....However, with the copy and paste work that has been done in these songs, it's not acceptable to me at all...Of course, we all understand that posthumous releases don't have the final blessing of the artist...That's reality and we need to accept that whether we like it or not...But the extensive copy pasting seems like it's done in a more sinister way, to fool the public, to cover up the fact that these songs are most likely completely from scratch....This is more than to just 'finish off the song'...Some backing vocals to flesh out the vocals, fine...I don't see an issue with that...But this is just over the top...IF it's Michael, it's so processed beyond recognition...THAT is what bothers me...If that's the way these songs need to be forced out in order to make it releasable, it's about making money, not about continuing a legacy that is worthy of MJ...These songs were better left in the vault then...Michael's integrity as an artist is far more important than fans' wishes for new material...

To me, this is where both doubters and believers alike can come together and come to the same consensus that what they've done here isn't right and doesn't respect Michael as the musician he was...

 

[Garden]

I understand what you're saying...I agree that in some circumstances, it's acceptable....However, with the copy and paste work that has been done in these songs, it's not acceptable to me at all...Of course, we all understand that posthumous releases don't have the final blessing of the artist...That's reality and we need to accept that whether we like it or not...But the extensive copy pasting seems like it's done in a more sinister way, to fool the public, to cover up the fact that these songs are most likely completely from scratch....This is more than to just 'finish off the song'...Some backing vocals to flesh out the vocals, fine...I don't see an issue with that...But this is just over the top...IF it's Michael, it's so processed beyond recognition...THAT is what bothers me...If that's the way these songs need to be forced out in order to make it releasable, it's about making money, not about continuing a legacy that is worthy of MJ...

I agree for a big part Arklove... For me the biggest problem is the fact that they didn't give us much (not enough imo) info from what ingredients they used in their "recipe". Had they given more transparancy, it would have been more acceptable, of course if they used understandable procedures for understandable reasons... But I know it is not usually done, giving your recipe = giving ideas to people with malicious intentions!! PS :"To me, this is where both doubters and believers alike can come together and come to the same consensus that what they've done here isn't right and doesn't respect Michael as the musician he was..." Yes, but hey, don't forget the "i don't knowers" , they can surely find themselves in such a consensus I think. I can. (Except : I don't know if it is not respecting the musician that Michael was.)

 

[Arklove]

I agree for a big part Arklove... For me the biggest problem is the fact that they didn't give us much (not enough imo) info from what ingredients they used in their "recipe". Had they given more transparancy, it would have been more acceptable, of course if they used understandable procedures for understandable reasons... But I know it is not usually done, giving your recipe = giving ideas to people with malicious intentions!! PS :"To me, this is where both doubters and believers alike can come together and come to the same consensus that what they've done here isn't right and doesn't respect Michael as the musician he was..." Yes, but hey, don't forget the "i don't knowers" , they can surely find themselves in such a consensus I think. I can. (Except : I don't know if it is not respecting the musician that Michael was, I really don't.)

Well, of course, I don't forget about the 'i don't knowers'...lol....I meant ALL fans alike

You're absolutely right about the transparency...Everything about these tracks has been so vague...To the Cascio's explanations, to Teddy's explanations, to the Estate's statement...They were such thin explanations that didn't actually explain anything, and left people STILL wondering what exactly went on in that studio in 2007...It's just not enough for me...

I mean, where are these forensic tests that were done? A PVC pipe? Vocals recorded in the shower? These aren't ridiculous things, and I'm sure very commonly done in studios, but to me, they're ridiculous to explain why Michael sounds like a different person...They're ridiculous reasons to explain why the pronunciations are not Michael, or to explain why everything that makes up his voice is NOT THERE in these recordings....

The very fact that they had to test these vocals forensically, or had to contact Malachi, shows to me that these songs shouldn't have been released....It's a no brainer...

 

[Garden]

Well, of course, I don't forget about the 'i don't knowers'...lol....I meant ALL fans alike You're absolutely right about the transparency...Everything about these tracks has been so vague...To the Cascio's explanations, to Teddy's explanations, to the Estate's statement...They were such thin explanations that didn't actually explain anything, and left people STILL wondering what exactly went on in that studio in 2007...It's just not enough for me... I mean, where are these forensic tests that were done? A PVC pipe? Vocals recorded in the shower? These aren't ridiculous things, and I'm sure very commonly done in studios, but to me, they're ridiculous to explain why Michael sounds like a different person...They're ridiculous reasons to explain why the pronunciations are not Michael, or to explain why everything that makes up his voice is NOT THERE in these recordings.... The very fact that they had to test these vocals forensically, or had to contact Malachi, shows to me that these songs shouldn't have been released....It's a no brainer...

Voilà! The little explanations they gave, whether these are ridiculous or not, I can't even judge, I don't have sufficiant information. Shouldn't have been released...?... that depends. We don't know the exact quantity and quality of raw vocals that were present, do we? Under and between the layers there may be precious pearls... pearls from no one else than our Michael Jackson... (I'm just brainstorming...and almost in tears)

 

[StellaJackson]

Half of the users here would be...without any speakers on their computers for a lifetime XD



Is this new?

No it is from January 2008. You don't think he'd dare show his face in public like that now do you?

 

[Arklove]

Voilà! The little explanations they gave, whether these are ridiculous or not, I can't even judge, I don't have sufficiant information. Shouldn't have been released...?... that depends. We don't know the exact quantity and quality of raw vocals that were present, do we? Under and between the layers there may be precious pearls... pearls from no one else than our Michael Jackson... (I'm just brainstorming...and almost in tears)

Exactly! You don't have sufficient information! Don't you think we should, based on the sheer vocals and the fact that no one knows who the hell is singing on a Michael Jackson album?

Under and between the layers may be Michael Jackson? I don't want to have to sift through the vocals to discover that he's actually there...I don't want 5%, 10%, 20% or even 70% MJ singing on an official Michael Jackson album....I want 100%....I don't think that's too much to ask...

 

[Garden]

No worries Arklove, I learned that you wouldn't attack me .
Yes, I understand and accept fully what you are saying.
Difference with me is, my weakness that I don't want to miss a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g that Michael sang... (unfortunately I'm not the only one in that case, which make easy victimes for consumer mis- or non-information... I'ld better keep quiet lol)

 

[Arklove]

No worries Arklove, I learned that you wouldnt attack me .
Yes, I understand and accept fully what you are saying.
Difference with me is, my weakness that I don't want to miss a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g that Michael sung...

Well, of course, we all want to hear everything he did....I just don't agree that in order for us to do that, his artistry needs to be compromised...

 

[love is magical]

Voilà! The little explanations they gave, whether these are ridiculous or not, I can't even judge, I don't have sufficiant information. Shouldn't have been released...?... that depends. We don't know the exact quantity and quality of raw vocals that were present, do we? Under and between the layers there may be precious pearls... pearls from no one else than our Michael Jackson... (I'm just brainstorming...and almost in tears)

The problem for me is that I no longer see the beautiful pearl after all the additional polishing and painting works.Lol.. Arky and I said pretty much the same thing again. I swear she's my long lost Canadian sister. :lol:

 

[Arklove]

The problem for me is that I no longer see the beautiful pearl after all the additional polishing and painting works.Lol.. Arky and I said pretty much the same thing again. I swear she's my long lost Canadian sister. :lol:

Exactly...and would Michael want that?

awww....you're cute :huggy:

 

[Garden]

Arklove and Love is Magical, you make me smile! Glad to have found many things we can agree on today, that feels really nice! :flowers: Thanx!

 

[love is magical]

^^likewise. :huggy:

 

[kreen]

The differences that people hear between the Cascio songs and other MJ songs, in terms of the vocals, can be attributed, I think, to three main elements :

1-The old « mind playing tricks on us » influence : it is IMPOSSIBLE for any of us to listen to any of the Cascio songs like we would any other MJ song. Despite our best efforts, we KNOW about the controversy, and we’ve known about it since BEFORE Breaking News came out, so the Cascio songs will always be in a different « drawer » in our mind than all of the other MJ songs.

2-The extensive use of James Porte on the songs. It’s entirely possible that they actually « doubled » some parts of MJ’s real vocals with Porte’s voice. I recall one particular song (was it Burn Tonight?) where as far as I can tell, MJ is not featured at all on the chorus. Which, by the way, is one more reason why the idea they used an impersonator is ridiculous : if they had, the impersonator’s voice would be featured on all the parts of all the songs. Unless he also died unexpectedly…

3- MJ himself not caring about the songs all that much, or certainly not knowing they’d ever see the light of day.

Regarding point number 2, a lot of people say that the songs should not have been released at all if they were so incomplete or so badly sung originally that they actually had to use a background singer’s voice to augment MJ’s. That’s a very good point. But on the other hand, let’s be honest : if none of the Cascio songs had ever been released or leaked in any way, and we learned just today that there are 12 incomplete MJ vocals sitting on Eddie Cascio’s computer, and that he only agreed to release them if they could be “produced” or “completed” with studio magic, would we just tell him to keep his 12 songs hidden forever? Or would we say, “sure, Cascio, do whatever you want to them, we just want to hear them.” I know I’d be the latter.

 

[KingMikeJ]

Some people have asked me whether I hear MJ on those tracks now, and I absolutely do : it's obviously MJ. It's all psychological : if the three Cascio tracks had come out on Invincible, nobody would be claiming it's not MJ singing.

I remember using that argument. I'll wait for you to bring up 2000 Watts at a later date.

Which is not to say people would not be complaining about the quality of the vocals, which is a different issue. Are the vocals MJ's? Yes. Are they good MJ vocals? Not really, altough it depends a bit on the song.

Doesn't that tell you that it's not Michael? Have you ever said "These are not good vocals" after listening to a Michael Jackson song? I sure haven't. I love his voice, and I'm sure you do too. Whether it's Someone In The Dark or Morphine, I just love listening to Michael's perfect voice. Perfect vocals.

My point is that I just don't understand why you are willing to believe Michael performed poorly on 12 songs in his career, and they just happened to be recorded at the same place around the same time.

 

[KingMikeJ]

Regarding point number 2, a lot of people say that the songs should not have been released at all if they were so incomplete or so badly sung originally that they actually had to use a background singer’s voice to augment MJ’s. That’s a very good point. But on the other hand, let’s be honest : if none of the Cascio songs had ever been released or leaked in any way, and we learned just today that there are 12 incomplete MJ vocals sitting on Eddie Cascio’s computer, and that he only agreed to release them if they could be “produced” or “completed” with studio magic, would we just tell him to keep his 12 songs hidden forever? Or would we say, “sure, Cascio, do whatever you want to them, we just want to hear them.” I know I’d be the latter.

I'd say; "Eddie, please release whatever you have. I know I speak for most if not all fans when I say that we just want to hear any unheard audio of Michael. If by 'studio magic' you mean hiring an impersonator to re-record this song to fill in uncompleted parts, you can keep your unheard vocals."

 

[StellaJackson]

So why did Michael change his accent for these songs only?

 

[qbee]

Yes thats what I want to know. Why would MJ change his dialect and accent the way he pronounced words for just the casico tracks on not any other tracks he was recording. These are the ONLY tracks were MJ's voice sound off foreign to us.

 

[love is magical]

Re Kreen's post about the hypothetical condition that Eddie would only release the demos with studio magic. I actually would tell Eddie to keep those scratch vocals/demos to himself if he's not willing to let people listen to the vocals the way left by Michael.

Using the Shakespeare sample again, if there was a newly discovered draft of never-before-known play that Shakespeare wrote while bathing in his bathtub, I'd like to read the untouched version as oppose to a version completed by a contemporary author.

Going back to the Cascio tracks, I'm extremely curious to why Eddie has such disinclination to release any type of evidence. If it's true that Michael recorded 12 songs in his basement, how could there be no single trace? And, what's wrong with the original demos? Why can't it be released the way they were? If the demos were in such a bad shape, is it really appropriate to release them?

 

[ivy]

So why did Michael change his accent for these songs only?

Yes thats what I want to know. Why would MJ change his dialect and accent the way he pronounced words for just the casico tracks on not any other tracks he was recording. These are the ONLY tracks were MJ's voice sound off foreign to us.

remember bumper's posts? I believe he said the different accent is only at some words and the most of them is too generic to tell either way. I also remember asking him if the accent difference could be attributed to Porte. I think accent / dialect is not conclusive either.

on a separate note:
I'll write my version later tonight

 

[marebear]

I have the Michael album and the 3 cascio songs are the ones I am not sure. The others I know and feel confident it's Michael. But those three I am not sure because I don't know if my mind is messed up with all the arguments I have seen or it's my instincts. When I hear Best of Joy I hear Michael. I hear Breaking News and I am not sure because of all the confusion. i feel confused.

Why would they put three fake songs on an album when they could have replaced them with something else? I am not sure what to believe because it would make no sense to put three songs that were not Michael. I don't get what that would accomplish. I find I don't listen to those 3 songs hardly but I do the others. I guess i don't get why someone would want to do that.

 

[StellaJackson]

remember bumper's posts? I believe he said the different accent is only at some words and the most of them is too generic to tell either way. I also remember asking him if the accent difference could be attributed to Porte. I think accent / dialect is not conclusive either.

on a separate note:
I'll write my version later tonight

I was only referring to the lead vocals. Take Fall In Love for example. There is no Porte on the verses but the accent is still not Michael's. That's before we get into the different pronounciation, snorts vibrato etc.

 

[love is magical]

Doesn't that tell you that it's not Michael? Have you ever said "These are not good vocals" after listening to a Michael Jackson song? I sure haven't. I love his voice, and I'm sure you do too. Whether it's Someone In The Dark or Morphine, I just love listening to Michael's perfect voice. Perfect vocals.My point is that I just don't understand why you are willing to believe Michael performed poorly on 12 songs in his career, and they just happened to be recorded at the same place around the same time.

I don't understand why Michael would lose his tremendous singing ability only in these 12 songs. Possible reason #1: He may be sick. Yet, he's well enough to do not one, not two, but 12 demos. Possible reason #2: These were scratch vocals. Okay, why would the Michael Jackson did scratch vocals on songs that were mostly written an sung by others previously? To me, it makes more sense for Eddie and James Porte to play the demos with vocals recorded to Michael. Possible reason #3: Michael wasn't trying. But, since when Michael needed to struggle to sound good? He recorded Fall Again while watching his children playing.

 

[qbee]

If there were any demos they could have been released as extras on the Album
I thought Eddie says only his version of the tracks is left. everything was destroyed or erased off his hard drive to make room ???? every musician who has comment that story says BS - No one would do that to MJ tracks. If this is What he stated, it's very suspicious .. so it calls suspicion upon the songs.

Too Much secrecy and him refusing to further speak about the songs ( Joe Vogel asked for a interview re guarding his segment on the Michael Album) for his book. He seems afraid to answer any questions at all about the songs, That draws suspicion.

I feel If he was confident about the songs it the process to produce them he wouldn't be afraid to speak on it. Like I said above his own actions draw more suspicion on the songs. I mean even if he came come forward to say I messed them up when I produced them .. would be better than silence.

Something is wrong with those songs whether it's MJ or not. The phrasing and pronunciation doesn't sound like Michael to me. The songs dont move me. I don't hear the Michael I know and love. I hear distorted vocals who ever they are from. We cant prove one way or the other. But My ears tell me No for the majority of the vocals on those songs. I somethimes think I hear a phrase a chorus here or there of MJ but hard to tell who is background who is MJ . Its sad when MJ songs feel sooo wrong. I've never had that happen before. I want to believe. Ive always wanted to believe. I just cant any more then I can believe he is alive.

 

[StellaJackson]

I have the Michael album and the 3 cascio songs are the ones I am not sure. The others I know and feel confident it's Michael. But those three I am not sure because I don't know if my mind is messed up with all the arguments I have seen or it's my instincts. When I hear Best of Joy I hear Michael. I hear Breaking News and I am not sure because of all the confusion. i feel confused.

Why would they put three fake songs on an album when they could have replaced them with something else? I am not sure what to believe because it would make no sense to put three songs that were not Michael. I don't get what that would accomplish. I find I don't listen to those 3 songs hardly but I do the others. I guess i don't get why someone would want to do that.

One word to explain how they ended up on the album: Incompetence.

Two words to explain why they were made in the first place: Selfishness and arrogance.

One word that covers the entire situation: Greed.

One word that everybody forgot when it came to putting this album together: Respect.