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Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins & Bush /Update Controversy surrounding autographs

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

quote:
Well you have a statement under the perjury of court that says Bravado took over 300 items to him in June and he approved 290 or so of them.


answer : show me the listing please.
and BTW, by contractual obligatrions, all these 300+ articles were branded AEG/BRAVADO, not Triumph. Simple facts.
 
They haven't listed what they took to him. It's the statement that Qbee copied

In or around March 2009, Bravado entered into arrangements with AEG Live, LLC (“AEG”) to serve as the merchandising company for Michael Jackson related merchandise in connection with AEG’s agreement with Michael Jackson for the then scheduled “This Is It Tour” of live performances of Mr. Jackson.

In connection with Bravado serving as the merchandising company for Mr. Jackson’s “This Is It Tour,”
Bravado created over 300 designs of Michael Jackson related merchandise.

Tom Bennett of Bravado presented all of those Jackson merchandise designs to Mr. Jackson personally in Los Angeles, California. At a meeting attended by Mr. Bennett as well as Mr. Jackson in early June 2009.

Mr. Jackson personally approved approximately 295 of the Jackson merchandise designs presented to him for creation and sale in connection with the This Is It Tour and the official Jackson merchandise website

so this is totally contradictory to your statement that Michael did not see or approve such designs.

and let me add this :

You are claiming that Bravado lied under oath - which is a perjury- that Michael had a meeting with Tom Bennett and approved items and Latoya is lying when she said "only two" was made for that TII tshirt and Michael "signed" it.

and a question

what are the chances of you getting definitive answers to that 4 specific questions? That'll end this debate for once and all.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Seems clear cut but goes against MB's character. Mind you, I think we've heard that one before ;)
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

what 4 questions ? send them in if you will.

When bennett presented these items [on paper] (I cast no doubt about this, please read my words well), again, no problem, but you have to keep in mind that contractually they ALL were AEG/BRAVADO. reread all the contracts and court doculents from 2009.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

and again, by june 14; 2009 : NO TII AEG/BRAVADO product approved by MJ.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Richard Lecocq said:
what 4 questions ? send them in if you will.
Click to expand...

It's already on the picture on your website. http://mjdatabank.com/mjjnews/wordpress/2012/12/05/michael-lee-bush-juliens-auction-la-controverse/

There's an email sent to them with very specific 4 questions. He replies with "manufacturing" date which in English means mass production and not a possible prototype or test marketing. In other words can you get them to accept or deny the possibility of a prototype for certain?

ps: I'll include a question to Michael Bush about the autograph issue especially the standee in our upcoming Q&A. We will see if he'll answer or not.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

LOL ok i see, well when he answered that the standee was manufactured AFTER MJ's untimely passing, that just discards all the other questions.
some may say it's logical, can't you [honestly] see this ?
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Richard Lecocq said:
LOL ok i see, well when he answered that the standee was manufactured AFTER MJ's untimely passing, that just discards all the other questions.
some may say it's logical, can't you [honestly] see this ?
Click to expand...

Well I love details and full confirmations. General statements with omitting details can easily be changed over time. I personally wouldn't place my bets on this vague statement.

however okay, so if it's absolute in your opinion then what is the next step? what is being done now that you have proved fraud?
 
ivy;3748450 said:
They haven't listed what they took to him. It's the statement that Qbee copied

In or around March 2009, Bravado entered into arrangements with AEG Live, LLC (“AEG”) to serve as the merchandising company for Michael Jackson related merchandise in connection with AEG’s agreement with Michael Jackson for the then scheduled “This Is It Tour” of live performances of Mr. Jackson.

In connection with Bravado serving as the merchandising company for Mr. Jackson’s “This Is It Tour,”
Bravado created over 300 designs of Michael Jackson related merchandise.

Tom Bennett of Bravado presented all of those Jackson merchandise designs to Mr. Jackson personally in Los Angeles, California. At a meeting attended by Mr. Bennett as well as Mr. Jackson in early June 2009.

Mr. Jackson personally approved approximately 295 of the Jackson merchandise designs presented to him for creation and sale in connection with the This Is It Tour and the official Jackson merchandise website

so this is totally contradictory to your statement that Michael did not see or approve such designs.

and let me add this :

You are claiming that Bravado lied under oath - which is a perjury- that Michael had a meeting with Tom Bennett and approved items and Latoya is lying when she said "only two" was made for that TII tshirt and Michael "signed" it.

and a question

what are the chances of you getting definitive answers to that 4 specific questions? That'll end this debate for once and all.
Click to expand...

The under oath statement says that they personally presented Mr. Jackson with 300 "MERCHANDISE DESIGNS FOR CREATION AND SALE" not that they presented him with 300 fully created items such as this standee.

http://www.rosespeaks.com/wp-conten...-Estate-Witness-Statement-Felix-Sebacious.pdf
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

if you can read the contracts and court papers YOU will SEE that all items BEFORE MJ's passing were ALL AEG/BRAVADO by CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS.
so you dreamin about a BRAVADO / TRIUMPH item envisioned in june 2009 is just desperate.
I told you I used to work for MJ Merch back in the day and have emails from that period when BRAVADO could not reach MJ.

I love it people are so narrowminded and think all these people were angels around MJ. lol
anyway, nothing of this will bring MJ back. so... think what you will, I have not only my opinion, but also my proofs and elements collevted throughout the years (regharding this matter and other "stories"....)

take care ;)

much respect,

RL
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

There are some other emails, but they are watermarked on another site, that are between Bravado and a fan and it says they are investigating as the standee was not made until after Mj died.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

ItsALLforLOVE said:
The under oath statement says that they personally presented Mr. Jackson with 300 "MERCHANDISE DESIGNS FOR CREATION AND SALE" not that they presented him with 300 fully created items such as this standee.

http://www.rosespeaks.com/wp-conten...-Estate-Witness-Statement-Felix-Sebacious.pdf
Click to expand...

the more you post proof, the more some people are blind

but also the more other realize and open their eyes.
let's move forward ;)
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Richard,

I have utmost respect for you but you'll benefit a lot if you don't insult other people. It just looks bad - for you.

I'm glad that you are confident that you have enough information and answers. There's nothing wrong in me asking for a lot more specific information. There's nothing wrong for me not having your connections, not knowing how credible your connections are and wanting more information that I can see other than simply your word. It's just normal. I understand you are special with connections and so on and apparently want to rub our faces in it but you shouldn't be this defensive when people are just simply asking for a more concrete confirmation from third parties that they can see for themselves.

Furthermore let me repeat again so what is accomplished here? You got your proof, uncovered a significant fraud and what are you doing about it? Nothing? These discussions on a fan forum means nothing IMO.

PS: I guess people also fail to see I haven't expressed a single opinion about whether the signatures are real or fake. Honestly I don't care either way.

PS 2: I also realize how everyone kept ignoring the "only two made" t-shirts Latoya showed and auctioned with a winning bid of $99,000 with June 25th date printed on it yet she claimed Michael signed. Is she lying too as it was only "designs" on paper apparently? And Michael hadn't approved anything by June 14? What now nobody has the balls to call her a liar and fraud too? Double standards?
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

The t shirt that LaToya held up doesn't appear genuine. It has Michael's date of death printed on it.

Pause the video at 0.36.

[youtube]PDznM9LEWRg[/youtube]
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

StellaJackson said:
The t shirt that LaToya held up doesn't appear genuine. It has Michael's date of death printed on it.
Click to expand...

I know and I have been saying that. :) Yet if you watch it, she says it was only two made before Michael's death, Michael signed it and they printed the dates and the celebration part (lower back) after Michael's death.

so either she's a big fat liar - that no one challenges- or she's confirming actual prototypes (not only designs on paper) being made.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

In that video clip, the shirt that Latoya showed does not seem to be an actual signature. When Michael wrote on fabrics like t-shirt material, it would look different, the marker would skip, get caught on the material. That shirt seems to display a graphic print of his signature, enlarged at that. I think she is just showing that Michael saw the DESIGN for that shirt and they placed his enlarged signature on the shirt. Maybe there were only two printed up like that with that photo and graphic print. Not sure, but I keep looking at it and the signature just does not look right for it being on a t-shirt.

Edited to say that maybe Michael signed the screen print, like the iron on patch (that would be on paper) and then they gently put it on the shirt. That might make more sense then because as the testimony said, he was presented DESIGNS, so Michael might have signed a screen print paper design IN HIS REAL SIGNATURE I MIGHT ADD (NOT LIKE THE STANDEE AND OTHER TOMPKINS & BUSH ITEMS) and they gently placed it on a t-shirt. Just taking a guess here as to how LaToya's item might be legit.
 
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

ItsALLforLOVE said:
Just taking a guess here as to how LaToya's item might be legit.
Click to expand...

You dared to take a guess of how the item can be legit? I guess the protocol requires me to insult you now by calling you dreaming, desperate, blind, narrowminded and so on.

For the record no I'm not trying to insult you, I'm just trying to use this as an example. There's nothing wrong in people discussing stuff and taking guesses in regards to how one thing might be legit or not. It's sad that some other people cannot tolerate even a basic discussion and cannot be respectful and feel the need to insult others.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I think a lot of people have not been open minded about these signatures because of one particular vocal messenger. Many fans have been discussing these autographs and researching the provenance of the autographs outside of this other person. I did my own research. I asked Michael Bush directly in person at Julien's about these autographs. This standee has the same autograph that we have been discussing, and for which I feel are NOT Michael Jackson's, for almost 1 month. So if this autograph could not have happened, then the other ones should be suspect as well.

I would love for this standee to be legit, but Bravado's quick response, previous testimony and my other readings and research, is clear to me that it is NOT possible to have been signed by Michael Jackson.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Richard Lecocq said:
if you can read the contracts and court papers YOU will SEE that all items BEFORE MJ's passing were ALL AEG/BRAVADO by CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS. so you dreamin about a BRAVADO / TRIUMPH item envisioned in june 2009 is just desperate.I told you I used to work for MJ Merch back in the day and have emails from that period when BRAVADO could not reach MJ.

I love it people are so narrowminded and think all these people were angels around MJ. lolanyway, nothing of this will bring MJ back. so... think what you will, I have not only my opinion, but also my proofs and elements collevted throughout the years (regharding this matter and other "stories"....)

take care ;)

much respect,

RL
Click to expand...
Myself or Ivy are not trying to take sides here but just get all the info we can..
Richard we are just asking questions becuase we didnt understand why you are so certain with just the one line reply to the letter as proof. There may also be a language barrier I dont know .. but please understand.

please dont call members or staff here narrow minded. :( we dont think every one who worked with MJ are angels. You know better than that. We are just looking for as much proof as we can becuase .. I for one dont want to cause undue harm to MLB or anyone without all the evidence. becuase we may miss something important and a mans life and reputation are at stake so we should be careful at least to find as much eveidence and truth as possible. Thats all.

For myself after seeing the whole court document and NOT before. Your info does seems very compelling. But alone with just the reply to the letter wrote it was not enough info for me to make any judgment. Thats why the more information the better. I just wanted you to bring what you could to the table... I also wanted to make certain beyond a show of doubt that there was No prototype of tha LA gear Standee.

Now I think I see what you mean as I read the whole statement on the court document. He states that Bravado had a deal with AEG for merchandising prior to MJs death and Bravado didnt go into an agreement with Triumph and the Estate untill august 2009 after MJs death. So it does seem to make sense that Bravado would NOT post the Triumph logo on any of their merchandise or prototypes before that time. But I still would be more satisfied if they could make a direct statement to that fact.

It seems logical based on what we have so far .. but it is not good news to my ears becuase I dont revel in delight as I have seen some doing if MLB did indeed faked this or any signature. He was once a dear friend and loyal employee and wrote such an awesome book for posperity for Michael. If true its goign to be heartbreaking to see it end on this sad note.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

As hard as it is to believe that one of Michael's long-term friends and employees will dupe his fans, that seems to be the case here :(
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

ItsALLforLOVE said:
I asked Michael Bush directly in person at Julien's about these autographs.
Click to expand...

what did he say?

qbee said:
please dont call members or staff here narrow minded. :( we dont think every one who worked with MJ are angels. You know better than that. We are just looking for as much proof as we can becuase .. I for one dont want to cause undue harm to MLB or anyone without all the evidence. becuase we may miss something important and a mans life and reputation are at stake so we should be careful at least to find as much eveidence and truth as possible. Thats all.
Click to expand...

this ! This is really important - at least for me personally. For some people it's too easy to make criminal accusations and curse and insult people. I personally want to see absolute and definitive proof before playing with a person's life and reputation.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Did anyone contact the estate about this? You would think they would be in the middle of this since it might impact MJ future memorabilia sale...

Obviously, he allowed the kids to select a few pieces to quiet down fans' growing anger ...and maybe to silence his own guilt.

Also, Was Julien contacted with Bravado's answer?...and IF this turns out to be a fraud case, who's gonna take this to the authorities?

Because Gaga's purchased of the costumes made headlines around the world, I am sure the press will have a field day with this.

With all the suspicions going around, I am glad that I have always paid dust to MLB. I never wanted anything to do with his book. his costume tour. His auction. From the get go, my gut feeling was this was fishy...and it has turned out to be a Grade A ****ery, like only people in MJ's entourage can cause.
 
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Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

ivy said:
what did he say?

He avoided my question which asked why they do not look like recognized MJ autographs. He said that Michael liked to sign. He signed stuff all the time. He said he signed stuff at Neverland for him. He said that people were jealous and that he had to let those people go because they were jealous and making up stuff. I listened respectfully as he avoided the question and just let the autographs speak for themselves.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

If the autographs are forged, I think the best people to make a case (and recover their money back) are the buyers themselves.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

ItsALLforLOVE said:
ivy said:
what did he say?

He avoided my question which asked why they do not look like recognized MJ autographs. He said that Michael liked to sign. He signed stuff all the time. He said he signed stuff at Neverland for him. He said that people were jealous and that he had to let those people go because they were jealous and making up stuff. I listened respectfully as he avoided the question and just let the autographs speak for themselves.
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The same vague answers. MJ loved to sign ish? I he serious?

He was drugged. He loved to sign stuff. Yeah... I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up with a big fat lawsuit against Julien's & MLB. Maybe he will finally produce that video of a drugged MJ signing autographs for Bush.

Poor Michael....
Click to expand...
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Oh my god.

I really, really, really hope the autographs aren't forged. Sadly, based on the evidence till now to me it looks they ARE fakes. I have a horrible feeling about this situation, I've had it since I first saw these autographs. I know we cant say anything for sure but... If it turns out to be true it will be sooo disappointing to know that even Michael's good 'friend' wasnt his friend. I loved the book, btw.

I'm not sure if I wanna know the truth, I'd really like to believe that there are some people out there who actually cared about Michael and not only his money. He really was too good to everyone..


:(
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

It makes me very sad that Michael Bush has decided to auction off MJ's iconic clothing. Both MLB and I know that it was MJ's wish to create a museum for these pieces. MJ spoke about this often to us. That is why MJ trusted MLB to hold on to these items."
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like i said before Karen's tweet made so much sense to me. So i am not surprise if Michael bush indeed forged Michael's autographs to legitimate his possession. I never believed Michael would gift his dresser such huge amount of clothes, iconic costumes that he well paid him to make.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

qbee said:

Now I think I see what you mean as I read the whole statement on the court document. He states that Bravado had a deal with AEG for merchandising prior to MJs death and Bravado didnt go into an agreement with Triumph and the Estate untill august 2009 after MJs death. So it does seem to make sense that Bravado would NOT post the Triumph logo on any of their merchandise or prototypes before that time. But I still would be more satisfied if they could make a direct statement to that fact.

It seems logical based on what we have so far .. but it is not good news to my ears becuase I dont revel in delight as I have seen some doing if MLB did indeed faked this or any signature. He was once a dear friend and loyal employee and wrote such an awesome book for posperity for Michael. If true its goign to be heartbreaking to see it end on this sad note.
Click to expand...

Now you start to get the point.
And also, I have been in touch with the merch people back then and still am, among others. I workd on many of the pre-AEG deals, so I know quite afex things about this.
So, if you follow what I publish, you should then know I am only releasing confirmed information. I have no time to waste with unconfirmed and odd stuff.
Now I wish some people here were more open to coll discussion when I explain SEVERAL TIMES, that TECHNIALLY, CONTRACTUALLY and also because of the whole timing, a BRAVADO/TRIUMPH item before MJ's death is just IMPOSSIBLE. And funny thing is the autograph in question on that standee is just like the many other ones some fans are suspicious about. Now, we all know many people prefered to fold their eyes during Michael's final days when he was frail, fragile and exhausted. Now that he is gone, I still think Michael deserves more than his fans trying to defend manoeuvres that are real prejudice to his legacy. But this is just my humble opinion. And it is also so easy to sound as being offended or insulted when I never intended to insult someone here (it is so different story whehn I curse, believe me lol).
Peace out, and get your eyes open.
Thanks.
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Perhaps I'm a bit slow on the up take here, but I'm interested where LaToya would have got those t-shirts from assuming they are genuine? Surely they would belong to the estate?
 
Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

so Bravado has been asked about these standee's and we are awaiting a confirmation from them correct?...what if they don't answer? Then what? I myself never thought that Michael "gifted" all these things to MB...BUT...I had to except what was happening with this auction because we couldn't stop it. I dont want to accuse a innocent man of forgery...meaning MB if he is innocent...but at the same time...we have ALL had a gut feeling about this..can we ALL be wrong?. The odds are not stacked that way IMO.
 
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