Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[crillon]

^^This is the way I am looking at it. Michael leaves a will and dictates that the executors takes care of his mom (not exact words). They give her an allowance. When she needed money for Jermaine to pay off Alejandra, remember that child support issue from last year, Katherine went to the estate for the money. They did some creative accounting and gave her a loan, which I personally think was the money for Jermaine. They took care of the debt with the Koreans, as a loan. She asked for some money in a lump sum to pay off lawyers, some of them she used to fight the estate about the will. She got that. Now the estate can't have Katherine with a lot of bills while it is pulling in money. It will not look good. They are not really going to ask her to pay back any loans. Michael told them to take care of her needs.

If she claims she does not have enough money now, when she gets that big bill from Panish, in no way will she be able to pay for it. Her allowance is used up. Since her allowance is more than her personal bills, it stands to reason that her money is being shared with "we all know who." With a bill in the millions from Panish, she will have to ask the estate to give her some money. The estate will have to do it. Otherwise you will have Randy spreading stories about the bad estate having Katherine living in debt while Branca et al., rake in millions in fees. Michael's kids won't like that because they dote on the grandmother. It would be a mess. That is why it would be interesting to see what the next accounting looks like. I wonder how creative they will get this time. I wonder when Panish will present the bill? It might be around 10 million.

I follow your rationale and it makes perfect sense, but here's another way to look at it. Michael's Will--and more specifically, the MJ Family Trust--wasn't that open-ended. Katherine's portion is held in a trust with Branca & McClain as co-trustees and they have complete discretion over what amount of money she receives. Whenever she's requested additional funds above and beyond her allowance, the executors cleared it first with the court. Now I see that Branca/McClain might be intimidated by public opinion into granting her every wish, but at some point, they need to draw the line to protect assets for Michael's children. The AEG lawsuit & likely appeal present the ideal opportunity to set that limit.

Who's to say when this will end? She's influenced by her cubs and a stable of (likely greedy) lawyers who can find all kinds of lawsuits and ventures for her to become involved in and use Michael's Estate as a bottomless piggy bank. I hope Branca/McClain push back on frivolous or risky lawsuits and ventures initiated by Katherine, but likely driven by others, otherwise Michael's children ultimately will be the ones paying the price.

 

[jamba]

Thanks, Juror #27, for your great replies. Some of the things you witnessed must have been hilarious--like the judge reacting to Debbie Rowe's colorful language. And the conflicts between the 2 teams--at one point they were almost coming to blows (at least from the reports)--was that true?

I agree with you re Earley as a witness. I thought he really understood the addiction process and how hard it is to break that pattern and how hard it was for MJ when he had those injuries, medical conditions and pain issues that needed treatment.

So, maybe you could comment on 2 other witnesses--Prince and Metzger? Specifically, what did you think of Prince's testimony that he saw Randy Phillips grabbing Murray by the elbow? Also I think he said some men came to see MJ while he was away at rehearsal, including Phillips (if I remember correctly). As I recall, he was not sure of the date (understandable since he was 12 years old). I think he called MJ and MJ told him to offer them something. How did you, and the jury, feel about this testimony as far as the negligent hiring issue and AEG's alleged pressure on Murray was concerned?

What did you think of Metzger's deposition statement versus his live testimony in court? Did you think he was contradicting himself, or at least walking back what he said in his deposition? What was his effect on the jury in that he was the final witness for both sides.

Thanks--I really appreciate your sharing your thoughts and experiences.

 

[krikzil]

If u are in debt as CM and in need to pay expenses for your Family and AEG "reminds" u to do what u have to do to put MJ on stage becuase they pay your salary.....wouldn't u feel under pressure and be forced to act unethically because u have to give some sort of results to who hired u (AEG) ?

From my vantage point, it's clear Murray was more influenced by the pressure applied by MJ rather than AEG. Conrad knew it wasn't AEG that wanted him there. Look at events: Michael's getting sick, AEG is trying to figure out what's going on, Conrad obviously knows what's causing it and yet, despite the confrontation with AEG execs, he doesn't stop because Murray knew MJ would replace him if he said "no" to the Propofol. Regardless though, Murray is the one who CHOSE to violate his oath as a doctor and that's solely on HIM no matter who or what was pressuring him. (Many individuals have found themselves in far dire circumstances than Conrad's situation and they didn't resort to unethical and/or criminal behavior.)

AEG knew that MJ was NOT fine, instead of doing tests on MJ to be sure that everything was fine, as employers do to remove their liability, they welcomes CM (their employee) to do anything possible....with the results that MJ died....
AEG liability is always there. MJ died under AEG watch by the hand of a doctor that AEG hired.

What test? A physical would have shown MJ wasn't well but it wouldn't have uncovered the critical detail and key to his decline: the Propofol. Welcome anything possible? There's absolutely no evidence AEG would have sanctioned the Propofol insanity by Conrad either. Their reaction in regards to suspicions about Klein demonstrates otherwise.

Thanks to the verdict about "AEG Hired CM" there are legal grounds (much stronger than before) for the Jackson Family to have AEG liable , via an appeal and probably without even passing through a jury.

l

If it was that simple, the jurors wouldn't have had to answer any further questions and would have been instructed to go straight to assessing damages/percentages after answering "yes" to Question #1.

 

[Mneme]

Now I see that Branca/McClain might be intimidated by public opinion into granting her every wish, but at some point, they need to draw the line to protect assets for Michael's children.

The AEG lawsuit & likely appeal present the ideal opportunity to set that limit.

I hope Branca/McClain push back on frivolous or risky lawsuits and ventures initiated by Katherine, but likely driven by others, otherwise Michael's children ultimately will be the ones paying the price.

Probebly the executors at least will have to pay 75% of the attorneys bills because PPB were plaintiffs too.

Fact is this money will be missing for other things (i.e. IRS; catalogue debts).

What will happen if Mr. Branca's cashbox is empty due to Mrs. Jackson's unhesitating behaviour?
With sarcasm one could say "Now, in this case Branca has to sell the catalogue."
And I think about wheter maybe this is the actual intention behind Jermaine's/Randy's pushing for an appeal.
Maybe their calculation is 'if the catalogue goes to sell in mother's lifetime she will get 40%...'
Of course this is wrong but perhaps the both are thinking that?

But Mr. Branca will not let it.

 

[Mechi]

There's no more reason for the estate to pay more than for the childrens lawyer bills and KJs allowance... the rest can be payed by Janet or Jerm can sell his new car... we do not know.
Even though the Jacksons act like it for all their life, thankfully there's no given law Michael has to pay for the families sick spending all the time.
I don't think the executors will give an easy pass on the money.
They made also clear from the beginning what they've thought about this trial.

 

[Bubs]

My goodness; if this is true, they will bankrupt the estate. The lawyers already paid out in the millions. Don't Katherine and Randy see that this first loss means they get no money but the firm will get some payments. If they lose an appeal, again they get no money but the firm will get some payments. Basically the only people getting money are the lawyers.

They don't care as they are delusionals as how much Mj had debt. Randy said Michael's dept was $28 million and KJ testified:
Putnam: You heard about MJ having money problems?
Mrs. Jackson: I heard for years Michael Jackson was broken and he wasn't
Putnam: Did you ever ask MJ about having money problems?
Mrs. Jackson: No, because I didn't believe it. Because he wasn't.

What can you say for that?

I wonder when Panish will present the bill? It might be around 10 million.

Not to mention if AEG asks judge to order plaintiffs to pay their costs, so there is going to be a double bill for the estate.

 

[Bubs]

What test? A physical would have shown MJ wasn't well but it wouldn't have uncovered the critical detail and key to his decline: the Propofol. Welcome anything possible? There's absolutely no evidence AEG would have sanctioned the Propofol insanity by Conrad either. Their reaction in regards to suspicions about Klein demonstrates otherwise.

Frank Dileo wanted CM to do blood work on Michael after the 19th June episode
"The next day -- June 20, 2009 -- DiLeo left a voice mail on Murray's cell phone. "I'm sure you're aware he had an episode last night. He's sick. Today's Saturday. Tomorrow, I'm on my way back. I'm not going to continue my trip. I think you need to get a blood test on him. We got to see what he's doing?""

CM wasn't going to do it because he knew what would have come up. If AEG and others knew CM's treatment, wouldn't it be pointless to contact on CM and ask him to do bloodwork to find out something that they already knew?
Same goes with everything else, if they knew CM's treatemnt to MJ, why would they spend any extra time by sending any emails to anyone about getting masseuse, nutritionist, therapists....to Michael if they knew CM was the source of MJ bad condition.


About CM knowing that the pressure came from MJ, not from AEG. I think you are right. He knew AEG wouldn't care less who was MJ's doctor, as Gonga told to his request for 5 million was ridicilous and hung up, and then on behalf of MJ, Gonga told to CM that artists (MJ) appoved 150 thousands, so he knew who was his boss and ruled the roots.

 

[Allusio]

They don't care as they are delusionals as how much Mj had debt. Randy said Michael's dept was $28 million and KJ testified:
Putnam: You heard about MJ having money problems?
Mrs. Jackson: I heard for years Michael Jackson was broken and he wasn't
Putnam: Did you ever ask MJ about having money problems?
Mrs. Jackson: No, because I didn't believe it. Because he wasn't.

What can you say for that?

If so than it’s logical to think that now Katherine does not know much about the Estate debts\probate … IDK.

 

[Vici]

Id like to know juror27's impression of TJ and Taj Jacksons testimony.

Id also like to know the reaction/atmosphere in courtroom and among jurors when Debbie Rowe broke down over Paris Jackson.

Id like to know what you thought about the notes the kids wrote to their father and the homevideos that were shown. Did it somehow change your perception of MJ as a father?

 

[Mneme]

They don't care as they are delusionals as how much Mj had debt. Randy said Michael's dept was $28 million and KJ testified:
Putnam: You heard about MJ having money problems?
Mrs. Jackson: I heard for years Michael Jackson was broken and he wasn't
Putnam: Did you ever ask MJ about having money problems?
Mrs. Jackson: No, because I didn't believe it. Because he wasn't.

What can you say for that?

They regard the catalogue debts from a different point of view as you:

They heard and read in 2009 'that catalogue has a value of 1 Billion ore even more'.
They knew Michael owned a half of it. And they heard about Michael's debts about 400 Millions.
Because they couldn't read or understand Michael's will their conclusion was:
A half from 1 Billion = 500 Millions / 500 Millions minus 400 Millions = 100 Millions / 40% from 100 Millions = 40 Millions ===> 40 Millions are OUR money. At least! because Branca/Sony are lying about the high debts and it will be much more money what we will get.
This is a naive fallacy but I am convinced that was their calculation.

And some or many fans are calculating as the Jacksons.
Do you remember the agitation against Mr. Branca in 2009?:
"The will is wrong; branca has the will faked because he is with Sony in the same bed and he will sell the catalogue to Sony".
This rumour was en vogue in Germany for a long time (or it is always there). And this rumour was scattered systematically. It was delusional in this time; LaToya slobbered about "Michael is died for his catalogue and now blood is on the catalogue", Jacksons mouth-piece Carr wrote "there is a curse on this catalogue and it must have an end with this"; ...
I don't know wheter overall in the world but in Germany the campagne was very massive.
(if a member had a opposite opinion he "was a Sony-/Branca plant and on their payroll").

Now, today we can say "They had blamed Mr. Branca for what what they self wanted to do.".

 

[gerryevans]

Supervisors exist to check proper work of their employee and remove liability from the company to check if their employee do the right job. AEG did nothing in that sense. IMO AEG is liable

Love your scenario. Continuing with it, if you were the Supervisor, and you had an employee on your team that was not meeting his quota for your product, and you told his co-worker that the employee's inability to meet the quota will affect the co-worker getting a big raise and you make it the co-worker's responsibility to get the enployee up to par. The co-worker starts giving the low performing employee a drug to speed him up. You find out about this AFTER the employee dies from an overdose of the drug. Should you as supervisor be liable for the overdose? Should you have known as the supervisor he was giving it to him?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

The estate panders to katherine imo. it is not mjs job to pay for their child support.ect. its to make sure kj has a roof over her head etc. if kj then wants to get involved in money making scans regardless of the facts she is already loaded then thats her choice and she shoukd pay for whatever mess she ends up in

 

[Bubs]

They regard the catalogue debts from a different point of view as you:

They heard and read in 2009 'that catalogue has a value of 1 Billion ore even more'.
They knew Michael owned a half of it. And they heard about Michael's debts about 400 Millions.
Because they couldn't read or understand Michael's will their conclusion was:
A half from 1 Billion = 500 Millions / 500 Millions minus 400 Millions = 100 Millions / 40% from 100 Millions = 40 Millions ===> 40 Millions are OUR money. At least! because Branca/Sony are lying about the high debts and it will be much more money what we will get.
This is a naive fallacy but I am convinced that was their calculation.

And some or many fans are calculating as the Jacksons.
Do you remember the agitation against Mr. Branca in 2009?:
"The will is wrong; branca has the will faked because he is with Sony in the same bed and he will sell the catalogue to Sony".
This rumour was en vogue in Germany for a long time (or it is always there). And this rumour was scattered systematically. It was delusional in this time; LaToya slobbered about "Michael is died for his catalogue and now blood is on the catalogue", Jacksons mouth-piece Carr wrote "there is a curse on this catalogue and it must have an end with this"; ...
I don't know wheter overall in the world but in Germany the campagne was very massive.
(if a member had a opposite opinion he "was a Sony-/Branca plant and on their payroll").

Now, today we can say "They had blamed Mr. Branca for what what they self wanted to do.".

I had a good laugh at that calculation part, and I believe that is what they think
The amount of people getting accused being Sony/estate/AEG plant is unreal. I wonder if estate makes any money as they have some many people on their payroll

 

[shelly_webster]

Everybody who agrees with the verdict is an AEG plant right? Everybody who supports the Estate is an Estate/Sony plant.

So I guess it's fair to say everybody who are supporting the Jackson is a Jackson plant.

 

[krikzil]

Frank Dileo wanted CM to do blood work on Michael after the 19th June episode
"The next day -- June 20, 2009 -- DiLeo left a voice mail on Murray's cell phone. "I'm sure you're aware he had an episode last night. He's sick. Today's Saturday. Tomorrow, I'm on my way back. I'm not going to continue my trip. I think you need to get a blood test on him. We got to see what he's doing?""

CM wasn't going to do it because he knew what would have come up. If AEG and others knew CM's treatment, wouldn't it be pointless to contact on CM and ask him to do bloodwork to find out something that they already knew?
Same goes with everything else, if they knew CM's treatemnt to MJ, why would they spend any extra time by sending any emails to anyone about getting masseuse, nutritionist, therapists....to Michael if they knew CM was the source of MJ bad condition.

Yes, AEG and Dileo's actions as you've mentioned indicate they had no clue it was CM. AEG and DiLeo were assuming he was misusing the obvious choices (painkillers) and getting it from somewhere else (like Klein).

I mentioned a drug test though, responding to that poster, to point out that even if AEG had demanded that an independent doctor exam MJ, would routine drug panels have found Propofol? [I actually asked my pain management specialist, an anesthesiologist, if Propofol shows up in drug testing since we have random drug testing at work and he does sedate me with it for procedures. I needed to know if I'd have some explaining to do, as with other medications I take or have taken. He said, no.] Who on earth would have thought to run a specific tox screen looking for it? (Unless the person in question was an anesthesiologist or other medical professional exhibiting the tell-tale signs of Propofol abuse, that's unlikely.) Amphetamines, marijuana, benzos, cocaine, alcohol, opiods (Demerol), barbiturates, hallucinogens, inhalants, PCP and steroids are what they look for. So that doctor would have only found the benzos and Demerol.

About CM knowing that the pressure came from MJ, not from AEG. I think you are right. He knew AEG wouldn't care less who was MJ's doctor, as Gonga told to his request for 5 million was ridicilous and hung up, and then on behalf of MJ, Gonga told to CM that artists (MJ) appoved 150 thousands, so he knew who was his boss and ruled the roots.

Yes. I'm one who doesn't think MJ was some helpless being; I think Michael Jackson was a force to be reckoned with. I do actually think AEG applied pressure, but the pressure they applied on Murray was at cross-purposes to that from MJ.

 

[CherubimII]

It is easy so... to blame Michael Jackson when he is not here to defend himself.

 

[Neverland_Valley]

Everybody who agrees with the verdict is an AEG plant right? Everybody who supports the Estate is an Estate/Sony plant.

So I guess it's fair to say everybody who are supporting the Jackson is a Jackson plant.

Maybe, but the catch is that there is no such a thing like a "Jackson plant".

 

[Neverland_Valley]

I had a good laugh at that calculation part, and I believe that is what they think
The amount of people getting accused being Sony/estate/AEG plant is unreal. I wonder if estate makes any money as they have some many people on their payroll

They wouldn't need to pay that many people. Many of them could be representing their interests without even noticing it.

 

[TheChosenOne]

^^ Same could be said for Jackson plants! LOL!

 

[shelly_webster]

Maybe, but the catch is that there is no such a thing like a "Jackson plant".

Yes and there are no Estate and AEG plants either.

 

[Tygger]

Love your scenario. Continuing with it, if you were the Supervisor, and you had an employee on your team that was not meeting his quota for your product, and you told his co-worker that the employee's inability to meet the quota will affect the co-worker getting a big raise and you make it the co-worker's responsibility to get the enployee up to par. The co-worker starts giving the low performing employee a drug to speed him up. You find out about this AFTER the employee dies from an overdose of the drug. Should you as supervisor be liable for the overdose? Should you have known as the supervisor he was giving it to him?

This scenario in not what happened in this civil trial. Additionally there is no mention of the employer being alerted to the employee's decline under the co-employee's general care.

AEG inserted themselves into the doctor-patient relationship making it a three-party relationship. This type of relationship allows for conflicts of interest.

I understand that the jurors did not believe the doctor was conflicted. However, it does not mean that the doctor was not conflicted particularly by his employer. The verdict is their perception of the evidence.

 

[Neverland_Valley]

Yes and there are no Estate and AEG plants either.

I don't think so.

 

[krikzil]

LOL. What IS it with our fandom and "plant" accusations anyway? I've amassed quite an extensive resume in my 4 years, across the various forums. (Sony, Murray (!!!), LMP, Branca/Estate.)

 

[bluesky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQZSh4eM77Q&feature=youtu.be

 

[jamba]

People who didn't agree with this lawsuit being filed or the plaintiff arguments are labelled 'AEG fans' and 'AEG plants' because that is an easy way to invalidate their position. You don't have to debate the points, you don't have to use reason or analytic skills, you don't have to use logic--you just say--"you are an AEG plant."

This is a logical fallacy called an 'ad hominen" ('to the man'). It means you do not attack the argument, you attack the person making the argument. People who engage in this ad hominen logical fallacy are showing that they have no legitimate argument, so they resort to name-calling.

I need to point out also that the email where Gogaware said "we need to remind him who is paying him" was never seen by CM. In other words, that email is irrelevant.

This Judge above is unreal--he says that an employer is responsible for the criminal actions of the employee while he/she is engaged in work. However, this is not the case unless there was pre-existing evidence that the employee had committed the same crime before and that the employer knew about it.

 

[Tygger]

I need to point out also that the email where Gogaware said "we need to remind him who is paying him" was never seen by CM. In other words, that email is irrelevant.

If one does not believe there was a conflict of interest this email is irrelevant. For those who do believe there is a conflict of interest, this email speaks to AEG being aware of the conflict and encouraging it.

Do not concern yourself with this judge's view. He most likely did not review the evidence and is speaking purely from an emotional standpoint.

 

[Autumn II]

Personally, in the end, I don't think this verdict matters very much in the long-term? Michael's message was about global peace-and-healing, and help and protection for children, and that never, EVER, varied. I do think it is THAT that we should dedicate ourselves to now, to honor his legacy. . .

 

[xosweetseducingsighsxo]

Personally, in the end, I don't think this verdict matters very much in the long-term? Michael's message was about global peace-and-healing, and help and protection for children, and that never, EVER, varied. I do think it is THAT that we should dedicate ourselves to now, to honor his legacy. . .

One word: Amen.

That's what he would've wanted--The Jacksons always say they know him more than anyone else..so it's like, "then what are you doing this for?" He wouldn't want everyone knowing his personal..personal business, and he surely wouldn't want his children to get dragged through this fiasco. I'm officially through with the Jacksons (except Michael and the kids). With all this time I've got, I can be giving my attention to honoring his legacy.

 

[Victory22]

I'm done with the Jackson's also. I can't forgive them for what they have done to Michael and his children.

 

[crillon]

Probebly the executors at least will have to pay 75% of the attorneys bills because PPB were plaintiffs too.

Fact is this money will be missing for other things (i.e. IRS; catalogue debts).

What will happen if Mr. Branca's cashbox is empty due to Mrs. Jackson's unhesitating behaviour?
With sarcasm one could say "Now, in this case Branca has to sell the catalogue."
And I think about wheter maybe this is the actual intention behind Jermaine's/Randy's pushing for an appeal.
Maybe their calculation is 'if the catalogue goes to sell in mother's lifetime she will get 40%...'
Of course this is wrong but perhaps the both are thinking that?

But Mr. Branca will not let it.

The only reason Prince, Paris & Blanket were included as plaintiffs in the AEG lawsuit is because Katherine could not file without them being included. As minors, I seriously doubt they were involved at all in giving input to the decision to sue AEG.

I totally agree with you--the money used to pay Katherine's hefty legal bills is money that's diverted away from paying other more critical bills. I don't think for one minute John Branca will let this spending spree go too far and he'll rein it in. But, imho, now's as good a time as any! The Executors have indulged Katherine and her cubs long enough.