Once again, he was using stimulants.
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What would you ask MJ based on his performances in This Is It
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Once again, he was using stimulants.
SmoothMJ
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You think MJ was the first artist to take stimulants!?
I'd be surprised if you could name one artist who hasn't used something before performing. Heard the latest about Prince?
Good god you do talk some nonsense.
SmoothMJ
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"Facts and testimonies", my arse.
As usual, you get to decide which testimonies are "facts" and which are not? I don't think so. Not for me.
You conspiracy theorists must be eaten up inside now millions of people have visual testimony of how well MJ was doing, as well as conclusive proof, via an autopsy, of the fact Michael was doing well for a man of his age.
Michael would still be with us today had CM done his job properly. Needing something to help you sleep, and then something to pick you up, doesn't make you incapable or on death's door, otherwise we would have no rock/pop stars alive.
This is going nowhere. Also, not this crap again :doh:
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chris123678
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I'm amazed at how some fans act when people disagree with them.
There is no conspiracy theory that people in this thread are bringing up.
The facts are that Michael needed a powerful drug, propofol, a drug only to be used in a hospital setting, just to sleep.
The facts are that in addition to this, he had several other drugs within his system.
The facts are that there are audio recordings of him clearly under the influence of drugs.
The facts are that Kenny Ortega grew concerned for his condition due to his frail appearance and incoherence during the June 19th rehearsal.
So was he ready to begin a 50 show comeback?
No.
mjawb2009
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I do think KO was being slightly overboard though. Yes MJ was in a bad state on June 19th but if things were as bad as Kenny said, how was he able to have better rehearsals at the Staples Center. I think MJ with reduced Propofol could perform better. Kenny was thinking as well about his own reputation if the show was a failure. Why would he put so much pressure on MJ weeks before in early June? It wasn't about MJ's health then, it was about his attendance at rehearsal. MJ didn't like to rehearse for the History tour , for example. If MJ was a no show to rehearsals it would reflect badly on Oretga.
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SmoothMJ
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Some of you are as bad as the tabloids. According to them he was 'washed up' in the mid 80's, he was 'dying' in the 90's, 'suicidal' in the early 2000's. Now according to some of you, he wasn't even capable of doing 50 shows in one location - despite the biggest motivation of all, his children.
Michael proved the critics wrong for 30 odd years, and he would have proved smoothGangsta and the other naysayers wrong as well, given the chance.
Michael proved the critics wrong for 30 odd years, and he would have proved smoothGangsta and the other naysayers wrong as well, given the chance.
Annita
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I don`t know why you blame Ortega. He was really the one who has MJ`s best interest in sense.
mjawb2009
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I don't blame Ortega , I think he did think of MJ's needs. I do think that everybody had their own agenda aswell though. The pressure of the tour effected everybody.
SmoothGangsta;4191923 said:
The very same crap by the very same users.
I think we should not really be surprised anymore by what these fans say (on that matter).
Also, it is really funny that one of the few sane voices in this community (like you) is constantly being called “naysayer”, or a “conspiracy theorist” (or whatever else) for just stating the obvious (but unpleasant) facts regarding MJ’s final days.
mjawb2009;4191940 said:
There was no way for MJ to reduce the amount of Propofol that he was taking during the preparation for his ‘This Is It’ shows.
Remember, for example, Debbie Rowe’s testimony (when she testified under oath as a witness) about MJ’s “very low pain tolerance”. Keep in mind that Propofol is used also as a strong painkiller, & MJ used that drug also for that purpose.
Taking these powerful drugs leads to a vicious circle with fatal consequences. The more you take them, the more increased dosages you need (each new time).
SmoothMJ;4191943 said:
According to some of us?
MJ himself knew that very well (that he was not capable of so many shows). For that reason, he never gave his consent to those 50 'This Is It' shows.
This also explains why everything related to the promotion of the ‘This Is It’ concerts (posters, official websites, etc) stated at that time categorically “10 shows”.
Honestly, I can hardly keep a straight face while reading some of the comments here (about MJ being “alert, in control and fully capable of performing”, or “there is literally no evidence to support that, other than tabloid propaganda”, or “people have visual testimony of how well MJ was doing”, & so on).
^Although in general I agree with you and appreciate your comments, MJ did indeed agree to something like 30 shows with the possibility of it being extended if AEG desired.
Ms. BlueGangsta
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IMO the entire problem with the convo is that both sides sometimes tend to go to far.
For example, Michael obviously wasn't in perfect health, but he definitely wasn't about to drop dead either, and I'm sure that the true answer is somewhere in between.:yes:
So while I think it's odd for someone to say Michael was as fit as a fiddle at the time I also side eye people that act as if he was falling apart at the seams too.:yes:
For example, Michael obviously wasn't in perfect health, but he definitely wasn't about to drop dead either, and I'm sure that the true answer is somewhere in between.:yes:
So while I think it's odd for someone to say Michael was as fit as a fiddle at the time I also side eye people that act as if he was falling apart at the seams too.:yes:
KOPV
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just to make clear Propofol is decreases consciousness - while that can be considered a sleep - that is not a true sleep state that allows you to reach all sleep levels.. that in itself has significant damaging effects when used for the purposes of sleep. physically and mentally damaging.. this also causes issues with memory. (Someone planning a concert set, that is the opposite of effectiveness) It also causes low blood pressure (stories of him being super cold) .. Without creating speculation of what MJ dealt with it can also cause seizures, blurred vision, hallucination, mental break down, depression, anxiety, irregular heart beat, loss of breath, ... list continues!
PS. This 10 vs 50 dates thing brings in too much speculation to really get 100% truth.. We do know Michael originally agreed to 10 shows, and it's very plausible to say AEG convinced Michael to do 50 (telling him how crazy tickets sold, fans want to see him, beating Princes record - another world record).. Basically persuading him into agreeing. Now this does not speak for what Michael believed or did not believe he was capable of doing.. We cannot argue what Michael felt the time of signing the contract for 50 dates simply because all of the stories we hear about him saying "They are going to kill me.." etc, was regarding how he was being pushed during rehearsals etc. (Which at the time would not have started yet). I could guess while signing Michael was excited and felt great about himself knowing that he still created that type of frenzy, and knowing each show was set a couple days apart probably eased his mind (AT THE TIME)
PS. This 10 vs 50 dates thing brings in too much speculation to really get 100% truth.. We do know Michael originally agreed to 10 shows, and it's very plausible to say AEG convinced Michael to do 50 (telling him how crazy tickets sold, fans want to see him, beating Princes record - another world record).. Basically persuading him into agreeing. Now this does not speak for what Michael believed or did not believe he was capable of doing.. We cannot argue what Michael felt the time of signing the contract for 50 dates simply because all of the stories we hear about him saying "They are going to kill me.." etc, was regarding how he was being pushed during rehearsals etc. (Which at the time would not have started yet). I could guess while signing Michael was excited and felt great about himself knowing that he still created that type of frenzy, and knowing each show was set a couple days apart probably eased his mind (AT THE TIME)
SmoothGangsta;4192009 said:
KOPV;4192018 said:
The only written contract that MJ signed referred explicitly to 10 ‘This Is It’ shows.
MJ never gave his written consent for any additional dates (beyond that number of 10 shows).
We should keep in mind also that AEG Live’s policy (about upcoming performances, projects, etc) is strictly based on written contracts, meaning any oral agreement is considered automatically invalid.
Also, everything at that London ‘This Is It’ press conference (on March 5th) referred to 10 shows (Dermot O’Leary, merchandise, etc). So, when MJ himself started to talk to his fans, he just confirmed that number (of 10 shows), excluding at the same time categorically any possibility for further additional dates (“When I say this is it, it really means this is it!”
. The additional 40 dates were added during the following days (after that London press conference) by AEG Live, & against MJ's wish.
Besides, Randy Phillips (AEG Live CEO) sounded ambivalent (if not contradictory) at that time. For example, one day he said that he talked personally to MJ (on the phone) about adding further days (beyond 10), & according to him, MJ agreed on that. But, one of the following days, Phillips said that it was Dr. Tohme Tohme (MJ’s manager at that time) that he spoke to about that, rather than MJ.
AEG Live would say anything; this does not necessarily mean that we have to believe them, especially in the absence of written consents.
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I was sure he signed a contract saying 30 shows with the possibility of more if demand desired? Maybe I'm wrong?
SmoothGangsta;4192107 said:
Let me be more specific:
Dr. Tohme Tohme signed a letter of intent (which is not a contract, but a preliminary document).
According to that letter of intent, ‘Artistico’ pre-approved up to 31 shows. 'Artistico' is a legal company (represented by Dr. Tohme Tohme) that negotiated MJ’s business matters with AEG Live.
That letter of intent was never signed by MJ himself, but by Dr. Tohme Tohme who acted on behalf of ‘Artistico’.
So, several months later, when MJ signed the contract for the 10 shows, he automatically activated (without realizing it) that letter of intent’s clause of 31 shows.
It should be noted that Dr. Tohme Tohme was one of those people that AEG Live brought into MJ’s life at that time in order to take advantage of him.
It is telling that even MJ himself could not really trust Dr. Tohme Tohme & he never spoke highly of him. Yet, that person was handling MJ’s business affairs at AEG Live’s request.
Themidwestcowboy
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I wish MJ would have never agreed to This Is It and just moved abroad to raise his children in peace and solitude.
KOPV
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# of dates signed does not speak to feelings.. Gives hints to what he could have felt only! that's why I say speculation on what he felt prior to rehearsals started..
Michael could have done This Is It if it was not for what was going on in his room with Conrad.. He needed rest, and that is not what was being provided. Michael was only 50... Not 70! I find us talking about the age 50 like it's THAT old. it's not...
Michael could have done This Is It if it was not for what was going on in his room with Conrad.. He needed rest, and that is not what was being provided. Michael was only 50... Not 70! I find us talking about the age 50 like it's THAT old. it's not...
analogue
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These are the tour dates for This Is It
July 13, 2009
July 16, 2009
July 18, 2009
July 22, 2009
July 24, 2009
July 26, 2009
July 28, 2009
July 30, 2009
August 1, 2009
August 3, 2009
August 10, 2009
August 12, 2009
August 17, 2009
August 19, 2009
August 24, 2009
August 26, 2009
August 28, 2009
August 30, 2009
September 1, 2009
September 3, 2009
September 6, 2009
September 8, 2009
September 10, 2009
September 21, 2009
September 23, 2009
September 27, 2009
September 29, 2009
Second Leg
January 7, 2010 London United Kingdom The O2 Arena
January 9, 2010
January 12, 2010
January 14, 2010
January 16, 2010
January 18, 2010
January 23, 2010
January 25, 2010
January 27, 2010
January 29, 2010
February 1, 2010
February 3, 2010
February 8, 2010
February 10, 2010
February 12, 2010
February 16, 2010
February 18, 2010
February 20, 2010
February 22, 2010
February 24, 2010
March 1, 2010
March 3, 2010
March 6, 2010
Michael had plenty of time to rest inbetween each show. The way some people talk you'd think he was performing on the 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th etc
mj_frenzy;4192178 said:
Ah right thanks for the clarification.
He wasn't getting any sleep whilst using propofol. He wouldn't have been getting any rest if he continued using it.
WhoIsIt89
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I see a lot of you joined years after the whole TII thing, and some even after the Katherine Vs. AEG Live trials. I'm saying this because, I believe a few years ago, screens were posted from either the trial or prior to it, I remember Ivy or someone else posting the actual contract with Michaels signature and it was 10 shows, but the contract also said, I believe that later dates (shows) would be added if desired. We know Michael only initially signed on for 10 shows, but its too much speculation and unknowns to say for sure if he was aware or not of the other 40 shows. Whatever the case, the dates were what they were and Michael was preparing for 50 shows, at the end of the day.
The Billie Jean thing is exactly like MIST said, it was rehearsals. I believe he has the same lackadaisical approach to Billie Jean during the Dangerous rehearsals as well. Actually he does it with most of his songs in the Dangerous rehearsals, as I'm watching them now, Dangerous specifically, and as far as his famous dance steps, it's like he marks them, or mimes them, and barely moves. I don't know what I'd ask Michael had I gotten the chance, but I know one thing, for a man that was 50 years old, and was supposedly going through all these health ailments, Michael was an exceptional talent even at this point and he moved like no one else I've seen. You can also clearly see him marking the kick, the moonwalk, and a few other Billie Jean moves during the TII rehearsal, so I don't think he was removing anything, or drastically changing his routines, remember, these rehearsals were never meant to be seen by us, they were for Michaels eyes only, so with that he was preparing himself, why would he go all out for rehearsals? He simply wouldn't.
Had he made it to do even one show, I think a lot of people would've been surprised by how well he was able to move.
The Billie Jean thing is exactly like MIST said, it was rehearsals. I believe he has the same lackadaisical approach to Billie Jean during the Dangerous rehearsals as well. Actually he does it with most of his songs in the Dangerous rehearsals, as I'm watching them now, Dangerous specifically, and as far as his famous dance steps, it's like he marks them, or mimes them, and barely moves. I don't know what I'd ask Michael had I gotten the chance, but I know one thing, for a man that was 50 years old, and was supposedly going through all these health ailments, Michael was an exceptional talent even at this point and he moved like no one else I've seen. You can also clearly see him marking the kick, the moonwalk, and a few other Billie Jean moves during the TII rehearsal, so I don't think he was removing anything, or drastically changing his routines, remember, these rehearsals were never meant to be seen by us, they were for Michaels eyes only, so with that he was preparing himself, why would he go all out for rehearsals? He simply wouldn't.
Had he made it to do even one show, I think a lot of people would've been surprised by how well he was able to move.
Hess
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Actually - in most performances in TII he performs more than during the Dangerous rehearsals.
Imagine MJ had died just before the Dangerous Tour and all we saw was the rehearsals - that could really start some speculation regarding his health.
Then cam the actual tour - where MJ of course performed 110 % (like he would have done in TII) and it is perfect concerts...
To compare rehearsals and then speculate in MJ's health from rehearsals - compared to an actual concert - doesn't make sense really.
I am not saying MJ did not have problems - propofol etc. - But I don't see him as a dead man walking during TII rehearsals. Had he not taken propofol or other drugs I think he would have done the concerts. His condition and health was good for a 50-year old man the autopsy concluded. - also the insurance tests before TII said he had good health. - Drugs was the enemy... - not being able to sleep must have been terrible when you had to rehearse before a world record breaking concert tour...
Imagine MJ had died just before the Dangerous Tour and all we saw was the rehearsals - that could really start some speculation regarding his health.
Then cam the actual tour - where MJ of course performed 110 % (like he would have done in TII) and it is perfect concerts...
To compare rehearsals and then speculate in MJ's health from rehearsals - compared to an actual concert - doesn't make sense really.
I am not saying MJ did not have problems - propofol etc. - But I don't see him as a dead man walking during TII rehearsals. Had he not taken propofol or other drugs I think he would have done the concerts. His condition and health was good for a 50-year old man the autopsy concluded. - also the insurance tests before TII said he had good health. - Drugs was the enemy... - not being able to sleep must have been terrible when you had to rehearse before a world record breaking concert tour...
KOPV
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^ well to be 100% fair what we saw was edited to show him in a good light... If a Dangerous rehearsal was edited from multiple days it would come out pretty damn good..
a large portion of This Is It wasn't even filmed at Staple Center as they advertise.. It has a lot of footage from The Forum rehearsals which people state that he was not in such a bad state in the earlier stages..
And it's not so much the time between shows that would have made it possible, it's the lack of traveling with different time changes.. SLEEP!! his tours often had 2-4 days between shows. Just would be traveling between that time, no steady sleep.
a large portion of This Is It wasn't even filmed at Staple Center as they advertise.. It has a lot of footage from The Forum rehearsals which people state that he was not in such a bad state in the earlier stages..
And it's not so much the time between shows that would have made it possible, it's the lack of traveling with different time changes.. SLEEP!! his tours often had 2-4 days between shows. Just would be traveling between that time, no steady sleep.
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Hess
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That is true of course - but still - even though they have 100 hours of film - they can only show him in a good light if he actually performed good and seemed fresh.
They can not edit what didn't happen. Maybe there is footage showing he was tired and confused? I don't know - but what we see is not a weak person - health-wise - had it not been for addiction to drugs/medicin - I think physically he was able to perform 50 concerts - sometimes with 3 days break between concerts - and what 1-2 months break in the middle - so it was more like 2 legs with both 20-30 concerts really - with many days between. It was not gonna be nearly as intense as his previous tours. - AND it was all the same location - so no travelling. - He actually would have time to rest and recover between concerts.
I think I would ask him that too. - And if he said yes I would ask if he intended to put in some "Breaks" in the show so he could catch breath etc. - I think the many videos was also to do that. - Video before Smooth Criminal, Earth Song, Thriller etc. - also the loong break-down after TWYMMF where MJ and the girl would slowly walk of stage - a nice way for MJ to get his breath while still being on stage performing.