Where Invincible went wrong

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Everything about the Invincible era. The album, everything from track selection, to vocals etc. The music videos, the performances (which he was heavily medicated for) his appearance, which was disheveled (and bloated from said meds.) Finally, his promotion, didn’t want to tour, didn’t want to do much of anything really but wanted to blame SONY for his failures with the album and play the race card which was ludicrous. I love Michael, I believe he is TRULY the best music act of all time but a spade is a spade and Michael was just plain wrong on all fronts for Invincible and one of the biggest reasons why it flopped, period!

Alright. If that's how you feel.

 

[Victorious]

Absolutely they would be far more popular with video clips. And literally any radio push.

MJ already went to Summer Jam with Jay Z looking like that and it was still awesome. And the crowd was still hype. So yes, he'd still find success. He always found success even when the critics would say there was none or actively lied and said he had none.

Hmm yes I agree that more videos would mean more promotion so it would help making the album more established. However, as you might already expected, I myself don't think another video like 'Rock My World' would benefit his image, so they should be utterly, utterly amazing videos. I mean, the video for 'Rock My World' was very well executed but it was nothing new (Smooth Criminal part 2) and Michael didn't look well and certainly not cool (disclaimer: personal opinion!) to appeal to the younger generation like he did before. Even then.. that's the most catchy song on the album. I can't think of any track besides 'RMW' to be an MJ classic, even with an amazing video, or, SORRY for this: it had to be an amazing video but without him in it..

I agree he looked a bit better at the Summer Jam than in the 'RMW' video but that's mainly due to the long hair IMO. From up close he still looked drugged out and 'plastic' tbh and that would be noticable in a video

 

[AlwaysThere]

I’ve come to feel that Invincible was ultimately a victim of circumstance. The years immediately preceding its release were an onslaught of emotional/mental and career-oriented stress.

• The Chandler accusations and settlement significantly kneecapped MJ’s public image, and there was no opportunity for repair because he proceeded to make extraordinarily terrible decisions in the immediate aftermath (e.g., using anti-Semitic slurs in a song, admitting on national television that he would continue holding sleepovers with children).
• Press outlets and journalists turned the sensationalism up to 11. By the turn of the millennium, MJ was effectively seen as the industry punching bag.
• His chronic insomnia throughout the HIStory tour and injuries sustained during the 1999 MJ & Friends bridge collapse led him to relapse on prescription medication.
• The seeds of the Mottola/Sony fallout had been planted during the HIStory era and worsened gradually with each new single, performance (or lack thereof), and contract review.
• Prince and Paris were born in a single 14-month period. Single parenthood can crumble even the most resilient people, much less a twice-divorced cultural juggernaut who had been vocal about his desire to have a complete family.

HIStory made it out alive because it was born in the immediate reverberation of the accusations: the criminal investigation shuttered, MJ was newly married and rehabilitated, and the world had (by all accounts) forgiven and forgotten. The cracks started to appear almost immediately thereafter, and by the time of Invincible, MJ’s place in pop culture was far different than it had been.

I feel that the various tribulations MJ had endured, or was enduring, ultimately distorted his perspective and caused him to put forward a sloppy piece of work. It’s not as though he lost his musical capabilities—listen to the outtakes! I envision a man who was so tired of industry conflicts, so worn down by the media and his so-called “friends,” so exhausted by his personal fatigue and mental strain, that he was not in the right headspace to put together a quality product.

 

[Hiker]

Well written @AlwaysThere ! I like Invincible, in fact I find it most playable as background music because it mellow. But its clearly not the ground breaking Michael that other albums have, and your reasoning makes sense. Who knows how things would have tuned out if he had stepped away from spotlight after 1999 and focused on being a father. Maybe he could have come back later refreshed, or maybe not.

 

[DuranDuran]

I can't think of any track besides 'RMW' to be an MJ classic

And yet I still hear Butterflies played on the radio today. There's even a remix with Eve. Unless you mean that a song is only a "real hit" or "classic" if the mainstream (code for white people) knows of it and not just "urban radio" as you said earlier.

 

[BuffaloBill87]

And yet I still hear Butterflies played on the radio today. There's even a remix with Eve. Unless you mean that a song is only a "real hit" or "classic" if the mainstream (code for white people) knows of it and not just "urban radio" as you said earlier.

I'll be honest I've never once heard butterflies being played on mainstream radio (in UK)

It's practically unknown to the masses.

 

[Victorious]

And yet I still hear Butterflies played on the radio today. There's even a remix with Eve. Unless you mean that a song is only a "real hit" or "classic" if the mainstream (code for white people) knows of it and not just "urban radio" as you said earlier.

We discussed Butterflies already. It wasn't a hit, no one knew it. It's only a hit now because of some stupid TikTok shit, not because the song is any special. And I didn't mention anything about 'urban radio'? But yes, for Michael Jackson a 'hit' would mean that basically everyone knew the song at the time, 'white' or 'urban'. Even your granny would

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Yes imagine people discussing MJ on an MJ forum

Petty arguing for 2 pages is not discussing MJ lol

 

[DuranDuran]

We discussed Butterflies already. It wasn't a hit, no one knew it. It's only a hit now because of some stupid TikTok shit, not because the song is any special. And I didn't mention anything about 'urban radio'? But yes, for Michael Jackson a 'hit' would mean that basically everyone knew the song at the time, 'white' or 'urban'. Even your granny would

I guess you ignored those Billboard charts I posted earlier, which proved that the mainstream has heard it, #14 out of 100 songs is a pretty high position. You have no evidence that not everybody has heard it. You're just making up stuff. It's impossible for everyone to have heard of any one thing anyway. A hit is a hit, no matter what chart it's on, whether it's the country chart or the Latin music chart. That's why Billboard has different charts. The Hot 100 is basically the mainstream white people chart, and non-white artists generally had to crossover to it. Unless they're a rap fan, people are more likely to buy artists of their own race/ethnicity. That's why the majority of the highest top 50 all time sellers are white males, and not non-whites & women. Elvis Presley sold way more than Little Richard & Chuck Berry. The Rolling Stones, Eric Clapton, & Led Zeppelin sold more than the Black blues artists they were inspired by (and straight up copied in Zepplin's case). Why is that? Does that mean that the music is better when done by white people?

If you didn't say "urban radio", somebody in this thread did. So I appologize for that. But it's still the same thing, whoever said it. It implies that something only matters if it's popular with the mainstream audience.

 

[SmoothCriminal1995]

@AlwaysThere Perfectly summed up my friend

 

[SmoothGangsta]

I’ve come to feel that Invincible was ultimately a victim of circumstance. The years immediately preceding its release were an onslaught of emotional/mental and career-oriented stress.

• The Chandler accusations and settlement significantly kneecapped MJ’s public image, and there was no opportunity for repair because he proceeded to make extraordinarily terrible decisions in the immediate aftermath (e.g., using anti-Semitic slurs in a song, admitting on national television that he would continue holding sleepovers with children).
• Press outlets and journalists turned the sensationalism up to 11. By the turn of the millennium, MJ was effectively seen as the industry punching bag.
• His chronic insomnia throughout the HIStory tour and injuries sustained during the 1999 MJ & Friends bridge collapse led him to relapse on prescription medication.
• The seeds of the Mottola/Sony fallout had been planted during the HIStory era and worsened gradually with each new single, performance (or lack thereof), and contract review.
• Prince and Paris were born in a single 14-month period. Single parenthood can crumble even the most resilient people, much less a twice-divorced cultural juggernaut who had been vocal about his desire to have a complete family.

HIStory made it out alive because it was born in the immediate reverberation of the accusations: the criminal investigation shuttered, MJ was newly married and rehabilitated, and the world had (by all accounts) forgiven and forgotten. The cracks started to appear almost immediately thereafter, and by the time of Invincible, MJ’s place in pop culture was far different than it had been.

I feel that the various tribulations MJ had endured, or was enduring, ultimately distorted his perspective and caused him to put forward a sloppy piece of work. It’s not as though he lost his musical capabilities—listen to the outtakes! I envision a man who was so tired of industry conflicts, so worn down by the media and his so-called “friends,” so exhausted by his personal fatigue and mental strain, that he was not in the right headspace to put together a quality product.

Yeah, it seems that beyond the very early stages of production MJ was not really as Involved as he should have been. For reasons you already summed up perfectly.

 

[DuranDuran]

It wasn't a hit, no one knew it.

In case you didn't see it the first time. The date is January 26, 2002, Tik Tok didn't exist then. The Hot 100 is the mainstream pop chart

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

We discussed Butterflies already. It wasn't a hit, no one knew it. It's only a hit now because of some stupid TikTok shit, not because the song is any special. And I didn't mention anything about 'urban radio'? But yes, for Michael Jackson a 'hit' would mean that basically everyone knew the song at the time, 'white' or 'urban'. Even your granny would

My friend has Butterflies as her favorite MJ song, And she isn't even an MJ fan like that. Did you speak to everyone, to know "No One" knew it? The song hasn't even been on TikTok. But it's got 6.1M on YouTube so it isn't some pariah.

If you don't like it, that's fine. You're starting to sound like you actively want the song to be buried to me.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

However, as you might already expected, I myself don't think another video like 'Rock My World' would benefit his image, so they should be utterly, utterly amazing videos. I mean, the video for 'Rock My World' was very well executed but it was nothing new (Smooth Criminal part 2)

No, it wasn't a very original video, that much is fair. It's Dangerous, literally, it's just the Dangerous Music Video Concept recycled. I thought that was common knowledge. It could've been a cool dance off with a musical rival like the performance with Usher but Sony in my opinion, made MJ do pretty much all of it. Was it a crime, not exactly, MJs singles in the past hadn't always done their best, and some of it was his fault, but I don't see why the suits should just immediately take over the drivers seat.

It's just Branca being in the reins only before MJ died.

MJ wanted a cool video for Unbreakable.

 

[DuranDuran]

The song hasn't even been on TikTok.

It was Heaven Can Wait that was on TikTok, but it was sped up. Even that made the R&B chart on original release, but it didn't get that high, I think in the 70s.

 

[kreen]

I just remember there was a lot of talk about Whitney Houston being too skinny, more than any other kind of comments about the program.

Yes, to the extent there was "negative" talk, it was about Whitney's skinniness and how they blurred her protruding ribs (and MJ's cheeks) in post-production to make both look better on the screen. There was also a lot of talk about Marlon Brando being booed and Britney Spears not showing up on one of the two nights.

But when the special did air, it was a ratings success and was seen as a successful production.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

It was Heaven Can Wait that was on TikTok. Even that made the R&B chart on original release, but it didn't get that high, I think in the 70s.

That's right. 72 in the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs. With no actual single release. It was canceled.

 

[BuffaloBill87]

So let get this straight....

Michael Jackson the biggest music star on the planet.... You rock my world hit number 10 on the billboard hot 100 and butterflies (the sleeper hit) went to number 14.

Why is that considered a success? Am I fcking missing something here?

That's pathetic for someone like MJ and a comeback record.

 

[BuffaloBill87]

In the UK , you rock my world charted at number 2 but failed to hit 1 due to kylie Minogue who's single had already been at number 1 for weeks already.

Cry made it to number 25.

That's the smash hit Invincible album for ya

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Can't follow the site rules either. I wonder what happened to the mods.

Moderation rarely happens around here.

 

[kreen]

What might be the most surprising aspect of the Invincible debacle is that usually, when you have a big star with commercial potential -- which MJ still was at that point, just not to the extent he once was -- you usually have a pro team of record executives/managers/A & R men who basically take over from the psychologically or artistically struggling artist and make sure the resulting product will be commercial and will sell, even though the artist himself might no longer be the catalyst.

But with MJ, you get the sense that he got superstar money to make the album, in terms of studio time and producers' fees, but there was nobody professional in charge of the project who could assemble quality material and make sure what came out was commercial and sellable.

There should have been a record executive who should have said what is obvious on first listen : "this is too ballad-heavy", or, "you can't start an album with 3 similar numbers", or "I hear the first single, but I don't hear the third one".

I mean, the Xscape album -- where MJ was no longer even around -- showed a firmer grasp of how you put out a competent package of music that has a chance on the charts.

I think ultimately it's the fault of whoever was MJ's manager at that point -- if somebody even was.

 

[AlwaysThere]

So let get this straight....

Michael Jackson the biggest music star on the planet.... You rock my world hit number 10 on the billboard hot 100 and butterflies (the sleeper hit) went to number 14.

Why is that considered a success? Am I fcking missing something here?

That's pathetic for someone like MJ and a comeback record.

“You Rock My World” and “Butterflies” charted based on radio airplay; neither received physical releases in the US, and this was years before digital downloads were integrated into Billboard’s system.

Michael Jackson—a 43-year-old singer three decades into his career and reintroducing himself to a generation that mostly know him as an alleged pedophile and a Jay Leno punchline—releases two singles with little to no promo, and they both reach the Top 15 by virtue of how often people requested them on the radio? That’s fucking impressive.

 

[DuranDuran]

“You Rock My World” and “Butterflies” charted based on radio airplay; neither received physical releases in the US, and this was years before digital downloads were integrated into Billboard’s system.

The labels began to kill physical singles in the 1990s. They wanted people to buy the album instead. That's why Napster & file sharing took off quickly. People didn't have to buy an entire CD to get the 1 song they wanted. A single was cheaper than an album too, which is how sales of 45s were often driven by teenagers who couldn't afford to buy albums.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

What might be the most surprising aspect of the Invincible debacle is that usually, when you have a big star with commercial potential -- which MJ still was at that point, just not to the extent he once was -- you usually have a pro team of record executives/managers/A & R men who basically take over from the psychologically or artistically struggling artist and make sure the resulting product will be commercial and will sell, even though the artist himself might no longer be the catalyst.

But with MJ, you get the sense that he got superstar money to make the album, in terms of studio time and producers' fees, but there was nobody professional in charge of the project who could assemble quality material and make sure what came out was commercial and sellable.

There should have been a record executive who should have said what is obvious on first listen : "this is too ballad-heavy", or, "you can't start an album with 3 similar numbers", or "I hear the first single, but I don't hear the third one".

I mean, the Xscape album -- where MJ was no longer even around -- showed a firmer grasp of how you put out a competent package of music that has a chance on the charts.

I think ultimately it's the fault of whoever was MJ's manager at that point -- if somebody even was.

Whose idea was it to go back to the drawing board in 2000? Didn't MJ turn in a fully realized album and then they said to him to start over?

 

[SmoothCriminal1995]

It's been said a lot, but Invincible could have done with a smaller run time and a more streamlined focused tracklist.

There's some fantastic songs on there, but they're kind of watered down by a lot of songs covering similar themes. I think a 10 track album would have worked much better

 

[BuffaloBill87]

It's been said a lot, but Invincible could have done with a smaller run time and a more streamlined focused tracklist.

There's some fantastic songs on there, but they're kind of watered down by a lot of songs covering similar themes. I think I can 10 track album would have worked much better

Unbreakable
Heartbreaker
Break of Dawn
Heaven can wait
You rock my world
Butterflies
Speechless
Don't walk away
Whatever Happens
Threatened

How about that? Looks a stronger album already

 

[DuranDuran]

It's been said a lot, but Invincible could have done with a smaller run time and a more streamlined focused tracklist.

It's short compared to the 1990s 2 CD albums (Wu Tang Clan, Tupac, Garth Brooks, etc) or Prince's 3 CD Emancipation. Even with Janet Jackson, half of her albums were interludes & skits. In 2003 OutKast put out Speakerboxxx/Love Below, which technically are 2 solo albums put together. It was a big hit, probably their most successful album.

When CDs became popular in the 1990s, many artists would fill out the 80 minutes with something. Before CDs, an album could only be 40 to 50 minutes, any more time than that it would lose sound quality. They would have to make it a double (or 5 record set with Bruce Springsteen's live album in the mid 1980s). That would make the album more expensive and might result in fewer sales than a single record.

 

[Bogdan]

Yes, to the extent there was "negative" talk, it was about Whitney's skinniness and how they blurred her protruding ribs (and MJ's cheeks) in post-production to make both look better on the screen.

There were rumours of Whitney’s death on the morning of 9/11 after she did not show up on the second night at MSG.

 

[Agonum]

It's short compared to the 1990s 2 CD albums (Wu Tang Clan, Tupac, Garth Brooks, etc) or Prince's 3 CD Emancipation. Even with Janet Jackson, half of her albums were interludes & skits. In 2003 OutKast put out Speakerboxxx/Love Below, which technically are 2 solo albums put together. It was a big hit, probably their most successful album.

When CDs became popular in the 1990s, many artists would fill out the 80 minutes with something. Before CDs, an album could only be 40 to 50 minutes, any more time than that it would lose sound quality. They would have to make it a double (or 5 record set with Bruce Springsteen's live album in the mid 1980s). That would make the album more expensive and might result in fewer sales than a single record.

That reminds me of Isaac Hayes. He put out two albums on May 23rd, 1995: Branded, and Raw & Defined. Both albums are really good, too!

 

[DuranDuran]

That reminds me of Isaac Hayes. He put out two albums on May 23rd, 1995: Branded, and Raw & Defined. Both albums are really good, too!

That's kind of like Guns n Roses & Bruce Springsteen, isn't it? 2 albums released separately on the same day, not a 2 CD album