Albums Dangerous vs Rhythm Nation 1814

[filmandmusic]

Dangerous vs. Rhythm Nation makes sense to me. Jermaine vs. Janet? I'm not getting that at all.

Janet has sold approx 180 million records. She's won 5 Grammys, 11 AMA's, she's had one Oscar nomination, she's currently closing out a successful tour and then starts another Las Vegas residency. She released Control when she was only 19 and, afaik, it's sold approx 10 million copies. She was invited to perform on the Royal Variety Performance show in 1989.

That's just the stuff I can remember, I'm sure there's loads more. Jermaine isn't going to catch up with her any time soon.

She was huge in the USA for sure, legendary even.

But in Europe the entire NJS sound simply didn’t catch on. Her biggest hit was when she made a euro dance type of song “together again”. That genre was all the rage in europe during the 90s. Even Michael couldn’t get it going though he generally still made the top 10 but it was a far cry from his top 5 and nr 1 hits from Thriller and Bad.

While Jermaine lacked any direction and even promotion he still had a brief but very successful solo career.

Obviously the US market is the biggest so Janet outsold Jermaine easily

 

[zinniabooklover]

She was huge in the USA for sure, legendary even.

I wasn't really talking about the US, tbh. I just meant, generally, her record sales are fabulous, she's been showered with dozens of awards, she's done several successful tours, she's about to start another Las Vegas residency, she nabbed an Oscar nomination, ... I just don't see the competition from Jermaine, frankly!

I get that the convo was focussed on that particular song from Jermaine (which I don't think I've ever heard) vs. Janet getting / not getting too many No.1 songs in Europe. I did go way beyond that bc it's the only thing that made sense to me.

But in Europe the entire NJS sound simply didn’t catch on. Her biggest hit was when she made a euro dance type of song “together again”. That genre was all the rage in europe during the 90s. Even Michael couldn’t get it going though he generally still made the top 10 but it was a far cry from his top 5 and nr 1 hits from Thriller and Bad.

I think it goes beyond NJS for me. I get that it didn't set Europe on fire - it didn't set me on fire, tbh - but Janet's career all around is massively impressive, imo. Sure, her tours usually focus very heavily on the US but she does get around Europe, Australasia, Japan etc.

While Jermaine lacked any direction and even promotion he still had a brief but very successful solo career.

I guess. He has a good voice, sure. Not denying that. There's Tell Me I'm Not Dreaming (which I love) and Let's Get Serious (which I do not love). Apart from those two, I can't name a single song by him (as a solo artist).

Obviously the US market is the biggest so Janet outsold Jermaine easily

If we leave aside J5, she's outdone him everywhere.

 

[Dart_Jack]

Dangerous vs. Rhythm Nation makes sense to me. Jermaine vs. Janet? I'm not getting that at all.

Janet has sold approx 180 million records. She's won 5 Grammys, 11 AMA's, she's had one Oscar nomination, she's currently closing out a successful tour and then starts another Las Vegas residency. She released Control when she was only 19 and, afaik, it's sold approx 10 million copies. She was invited to perform on the Royal Variety Performance show in 1989.

That's just the stuff I can remember, I'm sure there's loads more. Jermaine isn't going to catch up with her any time soon.

Janet is a big star only in the USA. Not all world.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Janet is a big star only in the USA. Not all world.

Well, I disagree but I think I'm all talked out on this one. My argument was that she's more successful than Jermaine - which she demonstrably is. But it doesn't really matter.

I'll leave you all to carry on, lol.

 

[Dart_Jack]

I wasn't really talking about the US, tbh. I just meant, generally, her record sales are fabulous, she's been showered with dozens of awards, she's done several successful tours, she's about to start another Las Vegas residency, she nabbed an Oscar nomination, ... I just don't see the competition from Jermaine, frankly!

I get that the convo was focussed on that particular song from Jermaine (which I don't think I've ever heard) vs. Janet getting / not getting too many No.1 songs in Europe. I did go way beyond that bc it's the only thing that made sense to me.


I think it goes beyond NJS for me. I get that it didn't set Europe on fire - it didn't set me on fire, tbh - but Janet's career all around is massively impressive, imo. Sure, her tours usually focus very heavily on the US but she does get around Europe, Australasia, Japan etc.


I guess. He has a good voice, sure. Not denying that. There's Tell Me I'm Not Dreaming (which I love) and Let's Get Serious (which I do not love). Apart from those two, I can't name a single song by him (as a solo artist).

Duets with Witney Houston?

 

[Dart_Jack]

Well, I disagree but I think I'm all talked out on this one. My argument was that she's more successful than Jermaine - which she demonstrably is. But it doesn't really matter.

I'll leave you all to carry on, lol.

Janet has very little visibility on YouTube for superstar status. Her biggest video is 80 million. And even that collaboration with another artist. Which isn't all that impressive for the incredible pop icon she's portrayed as. In the world she is very much in Michael's shadow.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Janet has very little visibility on YouTube for superstar status. Her biggest video is 80 million.

This is where the convo started, with a comparison of Janet's YT views for Rhythm Nation vs. Jermaine's YT views for this song which I've never even heard of. So, yes, Jermaine's beaten Janet in this one small category, the YT figures.

And even that collaboration with another artist. Which isn't all that impressive for the incredible pop icon she's portrayed as.

As I say, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. She is a pop icon, imo.

In the world she is very much in Michael's shadow.

Well, there's no question about that. All of the Jacksons are in Michael's shadow. He is a superstar that we can't even describe, there's no-one like him.

 

[Dart_Jack]

She was huge in the USA for sure, legendary even.

But in Europe the entire NJS sound simply didn’t catch on. Her biggest hit was when she made a euro dance type of song “together again”. That genre was all the rage in europe during the 90s. Even Michael couldn’t get it going though he generally still made the top 10 but it was a far cry from his top 5 and nr 1 hits from Thriller and Bad.

While Jermaine lacked any direction and even promotion he still had a brief but very successful solo career.

Obviously the US market is the biggest so Janet outsold Jermaine easily

Jermaine had little promotion during Motown. But when he came to Arista, Clive Davis saw potential in Jermaine.
it's no coincidence that he got a solo set on Victory's tour.
His songs were heard in many famous films of the 80s (Beverly Hills Cop 2, Perfect). Outstanding co-authors and producers such as Michael Omartian, Kashif, Surface, Babyface were attracted to him. But in the end, something went wrong (in early 90s).
By the way, Jermaine crossed paths with Jimmy Jam and Lewis before they started working with Janet! In 1985 Jam and Lewis were Howard Johnson's managers. And Jermaine participated in the production of his album "The Vision" . The executive producers of that album were Jem and Lewis))

 

[filmandmusic]

@zinniabooklover

You never heard when the rain begins to fall?!? that is insane. Now im not in the UK I know but I would wager where I am from it is the 4th most played “Jackson” song after Michael’s holy 3. It is really insane, not a party goes by without that song!

The other huge song is “do what you do” which is one of my favorite ballads.

Btw What Janet songs do you like?
That’s the way love goes is probably my favorite with Got till It’s gone.

 

[zinniabooklover]

@zinniabooklover
You never heard when the rain begins to fall?!?

I looked at it briefly, it really didn't ring a bell, I did not like it. Jermaine doesn't interest me and Pia Zadora was a bit of a joke in the UK so the film wouldn't have registered with me at all.

that is insane. Now im not in the UK I know but I would wager where I am from it is the 4th most played “Jackson” song after Michael’s holy 3. It is really insane, not a party goes by without that song!

Maybe the song is well known in the UK but I seriously doubt it. I have no memory of this thing on the radio or anywhere else, tbh. It didn't even crack the Top 40, only got as far as No.68. Although, Let's Get Serious didn't get into the UK charts at all, iirc, so ...

The other huge song is “do what you do” which is one of my favorite ballads.

Btw What Janet songs do you like?
That’s the way love goes is probably my favorite with Got till It’s gone.

Janet used to bore the pants off me. She's OK, decent voice, decent material but it was all too smooth and tidy for my liking. Her dancing? I'd rather watch Paula Abdul. Her singing? I mean, she's OK but I can think of 20 other singers I'd rather listen to.

I do always watch every clip of Scream from her shows and there's been loads posted from this current tour. I caught a slightly longer clip which included the segue into Black Cat so that was cool. Then another clip popped up where she's doing the screaming bit in Black Cat, the bit towards the end. It was her mature voice which I haven't really heard before, not properly. And I was hooked. Her mature voice has got all the fire and soul which I think is missing from her studio work (imo). That said, I will now have to revisit Rhythm Nation (my fave track there is The Knowledge, same as Michael). What do I think of it now? Did I miss something first time around?

Her mature voice has got layers and layers that her younger voice didn't have (obviously couldn't have had). I'll be digging into her live work way more than the studio albums. It's going to be interesting. I love the way she's presenting herself to her audience compared to her earlier tours. I love her outfits, her sass, her physicality ... she's just different now and way more interesting to me.

She was in Belgium last night. Her audience seems to have had a good time.

 

[filmandmusic]

I looked at it briefly, it really didn't ring a bell, I did not like it. Jermaine doesn't interest me and Pia Zadora was a bit of a joke in the UK so the film wouldn't have registered with me at all.

I knew you would not like it lol

Is this the smilie that means you hate it

She was in Belgium last night. Her audience seems to have had a good time.

Does she even sing live? Maybe bits and pieces. I'll watch a show one of these days. Because when I did the same with Madonna I strangely liked it, remember? lol
I had no idea she was in Belgium so it can only mean the media isn't all that excited about it. It is way different when the likes of Bruce Springsteen, Madonna or Billie Eilish are here.

PS I tried watching some Prince shows too but they bore me to death. I stick to the studio work with him despite his phenomenal and probably justified live reputation.

 

[zinniabooklover]

I knew you would not like it lol

Is this the smilie that means you hate it

That's the emoji I use when I've taken a Vow of Silence!

Does she even sing live? Maybe bits and pieces.

I know she uses pre-recorded vocals for some of the songs. Presumably the dance-heavy ones although I don't think she does the energetic dance routines she used to do. She is 58, after all. What I don't know is how much live singing she does. I've seen comments saying she does do some live vocals but nothing that really confirms it for me. Tbh, I don't mind too much. We are where we are so, y'know ... whatever. At least her audience gets to hear her mature voice, that's probably as much as you can hope for these days.

Since I've never paid much attention to her I'm not sure which songs would get the live treatment. Presumably the ballads?

I'll watch a show one of these days. Because when I did the same with Madonna I strangely liked it, remember? lol

I do remember! Tbf, you watched Madonna's Like A Virgin tour and she was very young then. Janet's middle-aged so if you watch one of her current shows it's going to be a whole different ball game. Assuming they are even up as a complete show, I'm not sure.

I had no idea she was in Belgium so it can only mean the media isn't all that excited about it. It is way different when the likes of Bruce Springsteen, Madonna or Billie Eilish are here.

Tell me about it. Wall-to-wall Bruce when he was here. Ditto Foo Fighters.

PS I tried watching some Prince shows too but they bore me to death. I stick to the studio work with him despite his phenomenal and probably justified live reputation.

I am exactly the same. It's odd bc I very often prefer people's live stuff over the studio stuff but with him it's the complete opposite. I do love watching him rehearse or do sound checks. Then he is magnificent, imo. Especially when he's at the piano doing very bluesy / jazzy stuff. But live, I just can't. Actually, that's a complete lie, there are a few bits I love. Let me think ...

There is footage of him backing Chaka Khan when she guested at one of his after-shows at Camden Palace. Those clips are amazing, there's no showy stuff, just great playing. The SNL thing ('Electric Chair'). 'The Future' at the Tokyo Dome in 1990 - I really like the staging for that. 'The Ladder' Tokyo 2002 is one of my top, top faves. He's basically preaching so if that's not appealing to you perhaps best avoid that one but it's a great performance, imo. Very bluesy, very gospel-ly, very moving, very soulful. There's also his performance of 'Motherless Child' which is beyond awesome (Spanish tv show, Septimo, 1999). Basically destroys me!

But, generally, his actual shows, I don't like them and I have really tried. Superbowl, Coachella, various gigs he did. I always give up. Give me the studio tracks every time! I do like the way he stages his shows, he uses the space really well. But musically, the dancing, his band, his backing singers, none of it really captures me.

I have to go and pay attention to Miss Janet, lol.

 

[Dart_Jack]

I looked at it briefly, it really didn't ring a bell, I did not like it. Jermaine doesn't interest me and Pia Zadora was a bit of a joke in the UK so the film wouldn't have registered with me at all.


Maybe the song is well known in the UK but I seriously doubt it. I have no memory of this thing on the radio or anywhere else, tbh. It didn't even crack the Top 40, only got as far as No.68. Although, Let's Get Serious didn't get into the UK charts at all, iirc, so ...





Janet used to bore the pants off me. She's OK, decent voice, decent material but it was all too smooth and tidy for my liking. Her dancing? I'd rather watch Paula Abdul. Her singing? I mean, she's OK but I can think of 20 other singers I'd rather listen to.

I do always watch every clip of Scream from her shows and there's been loads posted from this current tour. I caught a slightly longer clip which included the segue into Black Cat so that was cool. Then another clip popped up where she's doing the screaming bit in Black Cat, the bit towards the end. It was her mature voice which I haven't really heard before, not properly. And I was hooked. Her mature voice has got all the fire and soul which I think is missing from her studio work (imo). That said, I will now have to revisit Rhythm Nation (my fave track there is The Knowledge, same as Michael). What do I think of it now? Did I miss something first time around?

Her mature voice has got layers and layers that her younger voice didn't have (obviously couldn't have had). I'll be digging into her live work way more than the studio albums. It's going to be interesting. I love the way she's presenting herself to her audience compared to her earlier tours. I love her outfits, her sass, her physicality ... she's just different now and way more interesting to me.

She was in Belgium last night. Her audience seems to have had a good time.

Chart numbers aren't everything. So none of the Jermaine and Whitney Houston duets were released as a single, but many people know these songs.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Chart numbers aren't everything. So none of the Jermaine and Whitney Houston duets were released as a single, but many people know these songs.

That''s great. I hope they all have a lovely time enjoying Jermaine's voice. I have no interest in him. It's really not that big a deal.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Jermaine could've made a name for himself as a bassist, a classic studio session talent. That's so respectable.

Instead he wanted to be Michael 2.0. 1.0 really, the Beta to MJ's Gamma. Embarrassing

 

[zinniabooklover]

Jermaine could've made a name for himself as a bassist, a classic studio session talent. That's so respectable.

Instead he wanted to be Michael 2.0. 1.0 really, the Beta to MJ's Gamma. Embarrassing

 

[DuranDuran]

Chart numbers aren't everything. So none of the Jermaine and Whitney Houston duets were released as a single, but many people know these songs.

Since Whitney's earlier albums sold a lot, the people who bought them would know these songs. But most of the general public are not that aware of them. I just looked on Youtube and the duet with the most views (If You Say My Eyes Are Beautiful) has 2,487,451. Rockwell, who is considered a "1 hit wonder" has a ballad called Knife which has 46,541,485 views. Apparently Knife was popular (or a hit) in some countries in South America. The only other Rockwell song I've ever heard on the radio besides Somebody's Watching Me is Obscene Phone Caller. and that only has 638,823 views, not even a million.

One duet by Jermaine/Whitney (Shock Me) is on the soundtrack to a flop John Travolta movie called Perfect. The soundtrack did not do much either. The only song from it I recall hearing a lot on the radio is Wham! Rap. Video Soul on BET would show the music video for Jermaine's theme song, but I don't recall it getting much airplay, even on R&B radio. Another duet they did (Don't Look Any Further) is still unreleased to this day, but was later re-recorded by Dennis Edwards (from The Temptations) & Siedah Garrett. Their version has been sampled a lot.

On the other hand, Janet acted in a very popular movie, the sequel to Eddie Murphy's Nutty Professor. Poetic Justice with rapper Tupac was somewhat popular too. It made money because it had a lower budget.

 

[Dart_Jack]

Jermaine could've made a name for himself as a bassist, a classic studio session talent. That's so respectable.

Instead he wanted to be Michael 2.0. 1.0 really, the Beta to MJ's Gamma. Embarrassing

Yes, Jermaine was jealous of Michael's success. But why did you decide that he wanted to be MJ? Jermaine had a completely different role, and he is rather the heir to the traditions of Marvin Gaye. He's not a pop star, he's a soul-R&B singer like Luther Vandros or Teddy Pentegras.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Yes, Jermaine was jealous of Michael's success. But why did you decide that he wanted to be MJ? Jermaine had a completely different role, and he is rather the heir to the traditions of Marvin Gaye. He's not a pop star, he's a soul-R&B singer like Luther Vandros or Teddy Pentegras.

Because he had ambitions to do more than that, and Word to the Badd was not a soul-R&B ambitious song. Maybe now he can be assessed as something different but at the time that was clear in mind, courting the same chart topper producers as MJ.

 

[mj_frenzy]

Yes, Jermaine was jealous of Michael's success. But why did you decide that he wanted to be MJ? Jermaine had a completely different role, and he is rather the heir to the traditions of Marvin Gaye. He's not a pop star, he's a soul-R&B singer like Luther Vandros or Teddy Pentegras.

Jermaine Jackson stated about Michael Jackson:

"A lot of his success has been due to timing and a little bit of luck. It could have been him, or it could just as easily have been me" (Jermaine Jackson, 1984)

This Jermaine Jackson's statement strongly implies that he wanted to be Michael Jackson.

 

[Dart_Jack]

Because he had ambitions to do more than that, and Word to the Badd was not a soul-R&B ambitious song. Maybe now he can be assessed as something different but at the time that was clear in mind, courting the same chart topper producers as MJ.

This is only one of his 14 albums) By that time he had lost popularity and decided to revive the sound.
In addition, LA Reid and Babyface had previously worked with him on the album 2300 Jackson Street.

In the rest of the albums, Jermaine's formula is "Marvin Gaye + Stevie Wonder".
Jermaine was never a dancer or a spectacular performer (unlike Michael and Janet). He is a classical singer-musician. But it's not something different, just a different approach.

 

[Dart_Jack]

Jermaine Jackson stated about Michael Jackson:

"A lot of his success has been due to timing and a little bit of luck. It could have been him, or it could just as easily have been me" (Jermaine Jackson, 1984)

This Jermaine Jackson's statement strongly implies that he wanted to be Michael Jackson.

Would he like to be as successful as Michael? I think yes. But that doesn't mean he wanted to be Michael. Because his style and sound were different.

 

[DuranDuran]

Because he had ambitions to do more than that, and Word to the Badd was not a soul-R&B ambitious song. Maybe now he can be assessed as something different but at the time that was clear in mind, courting the same chart topper producers as MJ.

Who was that? I have all of Jermaine's albums, except the 2012 one with the opera singer. Mike never worked with any of the same producers on Jermaine's albums (unless you count the first 2 on Motown) other than Babyface/LA Reid and Jermaine worked with them first. Teddy Riley worked on the 2300 Jackson Street album which came out in 1989 before Dangerous was thought of. Teddy did not do any solo Jermaine though. Teddy worked with Janet, she did 2 songs with Blackstreet.

 

[Dart_Jack]

Who was that? I have all of Jermaine's albums, except the 2012 one with the opera singer. Mike never worked with any of the same producers on Jermaine's albums (unless you count the first 2 on Motown) other than Babyface/LA Reid and Jermaine worked with them first. Teddy Riley worked on the 2300 Jackson Street album which came out in 1989 before Dangerous was thought of. Teddy did not do any solo Jermaine though. Teddy worked with Janet, she did 2 songs with Blackstreet.

John Barnes co-wrote Jermaine's songs on Jacksons: American Dream.

Also Michael Omartian co-produced We are World. Also produced several Jermaine Arista songs.


But this seems to be the rare case except, of course, for the Motown writers who often crossed paths.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Who was that? I have all of Jermaine's albums, except the 2012 one with the opera singer. Mike never worked with any of the same producers on Jermaine's albums (unless you count the first 2 on Motown) other than Babyface/LA Reid and Jermaine worked with them first. [...]

Mm, but according to Jermaine, Michael did some work with LA Reid and Babyface and held up Jermaine's project for 3 months. It's in Jermaine's book.

EDIT - P.289 - 291

 

[Dart_Jack]

Mm, but according to Jermaine, Michael did some work with LA Reid and Babyface and held up Jermaine's project for 3 months. It's in Jermaine's book.

Jermaine signed a contract with their label and negotiated an album before Michael attracted them for Dangerous.

Michael had never worked with them before. But all the brothers had known Babyface since the early 70s.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Jermaine signed a contract with their label and negotiated an album before Michael attracted them for Dangerous.

Michael had never worked with them before. But all the brothers had known Babyface since the early 70s.

Yes, I know this. I'm simply reporting what Jermaine wrote in his own book.

 

[Dart_Jack]

Yes, I know this. I'm simply reporting what Jermaine wrote in his own book.

By the way, another interesting fact is that the current co-manager of the Estate, John McClane, initially worked with Jermaine as a musician, and then began to contribute to the careers of Janet and Michael.
Jermaine also hooked up with Jimmy Jamm and Terry Lewis before she teamed up with Janet.

Jermaine and McClain co-produced Howard Johnson's 1985 album The Vision. And Jim and Lewis were Johnson's managers and also produced the album.

 

[zinniabooklover]

By the way, another interesting fact is that the current co-manager of the Estate, John McClane, initially worked with Jermaine as a musician, and then began to contribute to the careers of Janet and Michael.
Jermaine also hooked up with Jimmy Jamm and Terry Lewis before she teamed up with Janet.

Jermaine and McClain co-produced Howard Johnson's 1985 album The Vision. And Jim and Lewis were Johnson's managers and also produced the album.The Vision. And Jim and Lewis were Johnson's managers and also produced the album.

As I said earlier, I have zero interest in Jermaine.

 

[Dart_Jack]

Как я уже говорил ранее, Джермейн меня совершенно не интересует.

But in Michael's entire history, it is impossible to ignore him. Collaboration with his brothers is a significant part of Michael Jackson's life and career.

Jermane singing inspired Michael singing. (Sourse: Moonwalk book).