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Michael Jackson's attitude towards women in his music

Wow, what a thread! Was the OP an early test person for chatgpt, which had not yet been released at the time this thread was started, or how else can so much content be generated without human intelligence?

Just take a look at the "mj and ladies" picture thread please.

Or at his White House drawing after his 1984 visit:
"Michael stayed over night at the White House in President Lincoln's bedroom, which inspired him to create his Lincoln portraits and his work of art titled “White House Doors”. In “White House Doors” Michael included his version of the quote below by President Adams, to which Michael added two of his own words ...
"I pray heaven to bestow the best of blessings on this house, and all that shall hereafter inhabit it may none but honest and wise men [or women] ever rule under this roof."
- President John Adams, November 1800
- Amendment by Michael Joseph Jackson, January 20, 1990
... He altered the quote by adding the words “or women” after “wise men”, in a clear advocacy of a woman president in the future. Michael had this quote carved in marble and planned to personally present it to the President on a future Presidents Day, to be placed above the front entrance to the White House, as depicted in his master work of art, “White House Doors”."

JacksonStrongAlliance.com - fine art created by Michael Jackson

The Jackson-Strong Alliance and the enchanting world of fine art created by Michael Jackson.
www.jacksonstrongalliance.com

Yes, I also found the conversation with Schmuley about women quite disrespectful. It made me angry actually. But its clearly S who said the negative things about women and just promoted MJ to agree. MJ follows along the conversation, often just replying hm-hm. So one can't really conclude anything from that.
(And no, it was not a private conversation but intended for publication)
 
In the video short films, Michael seemed shy with the women
 
Michael was a fan of old Hollywood musicals/ crime movies - and the femme fatale was a common character in those films. He created the idea that using classic Hollywood cliches like the “bad woman” would be a great hook in his music. It was artistic expression, not necessarily his personal views towards women.
 
MJ didn't exactly have a healthy upbringing and was over-exposed to sex early on. I'm sure he talked about being in the same room while his brothers were having sex. I think that some of his views on women would've been heavily influenced by what he saw growing up in an adult world throughout his youth.

Also, he was a rich man for almost his entire life. And there are opportunistic women that actively seek rich men (just as there are opportunistic men in other spheres). He was most likely over-exposed to that too throughout his life.

But MJ had many positive love songs, RTT is a good example of a song and a video. I thought ITC and YANA videos were good too. Even in a video such as WII, with it's most explicit reference to prostitution, the female lead is made to look like a sad victim by the end who cannot escape the cycle of exploitation/abuse.
 
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jasmine.uddin said:
MJ didn't exactly have a healthy upbringing and was over-exposed to sex early on. I'm sure he talked about being in the same room while his brothers were having sex. I think that some of his views on women would've been heavily influenced by what he saw growing up in an adult world throughout his youth.

Also, he was a rich man for almost his entire life. And there are opportunistic women that actively seek rich men (just as there are opportunistic men in other spheres). He was most likely over-exposed to that too throughout his life.

But MJ had many positive love songs, RTT is a good example of a song and a video. I thought ITC and YANA videos were good too. Even in a video such as WII, with it's most explicit reference to prostitution, the female lead is made to look like a sad victim by the end who cannot escape the cycle of exploitation/abuse.
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I’ve never seen Michael be misogynist to any woman. He was nice to Prudence Solomon at her wedding, he was helpful to female fans who were being crushed by mobs of people, he took care of his mother, he was a gentleman with Debbie Rowe. There are records of him teasing his sisters Janet and LaToya but that’s just sibling stuff, not uncommon in families.
 
StarlightXX said:
I’ve never seen Michael be misogynist to any woman. He was nice to Prudence Solomon at her wedding, he was helpful to female fans who were being crushed by mobs of people, he took care of his mother, he was a gentleman with Debbie Rowe. There are records of him teasing his sisters Janet and LaToya but that’s just sibling stuff, not uncommon in families.
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I fully agree, but I think the thread was specifically about MJs representation of women within his music, and as you pointed out, there is an undeniable 'femme fatale' element to some of his music, or atleast a sense that a certain type of woman can lead to the serious ruin of a man (BJ, BOTDF, Dangerous, DD- all great songs though). I just wondered whether a childhood and lifetime to being overexposed to sexuality may have influenced this.
 
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staywild23 said:
This is an interesting discussion and I definitely don't want to argue with anyone about it. But I don't see Michael as a misogynist at all, whatsoever. Does he have some old fashioned views that are perhaps based in some patriarchal values passed on to him from his upbringing and the time period he grew up in? Absolutely. I would suggest he does in the same way that everyone does. But he also had so many completely unique life experiences that next to no one can relate to, given how young he was when he started, and what he witnessed all of his life. I believe more than anything he was writing about his life experiences, or the things he observed. I don't think he was ever disrespectful about it though and I believe he had the right to express his feelings about those situations however he wanted to. If you look at most of the songs referenced here, the "anti-women" theme is actually fairly benign and seem largely about specific women, rather than women as a whole.

Let's put it this way. I am a writer, myself. I have experienced a lot of trauma at the hands of men. I write about this in a lot in my essays, poetry, and short stories. I don't exclusively present men in this way, of course, but my lived experiences have reinforced that men are dangerous (ha! no pun in tended lol). Do I apply that to all men? Absolutely not. I have plenty of healthy, loving, wonderful relationships with men, romantic, friend, and otherwise. But does that change the trauma I experienced? No. So I work through a great deal of that through writing and creation. I create characters that are horrifying representations of people I have known, not because I hate men (I absolutely love men), but because there are unique ways in which men can hurt women (and vice versa) that I have experienced. In the same regard, Michael (presumably) experienced unique relationships with women his entire life due to being famous from the time he was a child. By writing about those experiences, he was not only exploring and expressing that pain, but he was showing other people what it was like to feel it. That's the beauty of being an artist.

I don't believe Michael was ever degrading in his music, though. That to me is part of the difference here. He writes about women being predatory at times, because he had experienced women being predatory, in the same way I experienced men being predatory. He writes about women breaking his heart, because he experienced that. He writes about things that people of any gender or sexuality can relate to (I mean...who here who has been cheated on does NOT relate so painfully to "Who is it?"). But he doesn't degrade, dehumanize, or diminish women.
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I'm just now reading this and I have to say, this is so eloquently put, I wholeheartedly agree.
 
SmoothCriminal1995 said:
Dirty Diana is a masterpiece. Anyone who says it's Michael's "worst single" should resign from their job as a critic with immediate effect
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I'm late to this, but heck yes! I literally gasped at reading "Dirty Diana is Michael's worst single". Are you kidding me?! That's a masterpiece and such a hard song to sing, Michael's vocals are out of this world! If a critic cannot appreciate that song and its potential, I question their credibility as a critic and would advise that they resign. Also, I don't think that Michael singing about groupies is proof of misogyny. Groupies do act like that, everybody knows it. It's similar to how there are plenty of songs out there talking about toxic men. I've been listening to MJ for years, not once did his songs strike me as misogynistic.
 
Songs like "Billie Jean" and "Dirty Diana" are arguably misogynistic, but plenty of male singers and rappers make songs about groupies and gold diggers. Just like plenty of female singers and rappers make songs attacking men who are bums, abusive, unfaithful, etc. Everyone does this.
 
It's not just the songs, he even represented women as prostitutes. There really was no need for that type of representation for songs like WII and arguably TWYMMF. I think some fans are uncomfortable with the word 'misogynistic', but he did appear to be peddling certain stereotypes, and notably his role in many of these types of songs appeared to be the unsuspecting casualty. I don't doubt that his experiences shaped his music, as is the case with any artist, but there is a reoccurring theme there.
 
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someplace_else said:
I find this thread very odd... misogynist means that he had a negative view on women in general, that's just not true. But I think I am repeating myself 🤔
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Agreed, he (seldomly) just sang about bad ones. He was heterosexual. I don't understand what the issue is here.

It's like "MJ clearly thought women were perfect and could do no wrong because of songs like IJCSLY and Remember The Time. This is not OK."
 
I think the difference is that in songs like IJCSLY and RTT, there is no negative view of the male or the female role so there is a balance in the perspective between the genders there. But with songs like DD, BJ, BOTDF etc., there is a negative view of the woman only, I think this is where the question of misogyny comes into play. I don't feel MJ was misogynistic as a person, but I can certainly see how some of his songs and videos can lean that way.
 
Google says: "a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women." In general. General point of view.

Writing songs or telling stories that are sometimes negative and about one specific woman because of experiences or stuff he heard (doesn't even have to be a personal experience or his own opinion) is not misogynist.

It's just more interesting than singing "everything's fine, birds and butterflies everywhere 'til the end of times". And there are also a lot of positive songs about women, so I really don't get this thread 🥹.

Edit: let's assume I had 4 relationships. The first three were absolute idiots and now I am together with the man of my dreams. I write 3 negative songs about the first three and a positive one about the man I am with now. Am I misandric now? Don't think so.
 
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For the purposes of clarification, I think it's important to distinguish that misogyny is not limited to a person. Misogyny can also be associated with group dynamics, such as different groups within society. It can also be associated with social constructs, such as cultures. It can also be associated with ideologies, such as literature/music/arts. Additionally, misogynistic views/tendencies/opinions are not limited to men, and can include women.

The thread is specifically about MJs attitude to women within the context of his music. Songs/stories/art representing gender relationships don't need to be all positive to be fair, and certainly not all perspectives are required to be universally fair. But where there is a reoccurring stereotype, such as in some of MJs music, it's important to remember that these women do not exist in a vacuum. It's the lack of acknowledgement of that which can be considered problematic by some.
 
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jasmine.uddin said:
I think the difference is that in songs like IJCSLY and RTT, there is no negative view of the male or the female role so there is a balance in the perspective between the genders there. But with songs like DD, BJ, BOTDF etc., there is a negative view of the woman only, I think this is where the question of misogyny comes into play. I don't feel MJ was misogynistic as a person, but I can certainly see how some of his songs and videos can lean that way.
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But the song(s) is about one woman that has done X or Y, so I don't see how misogyny can really come into it as he is only singing about one woman (in each of the songs you mentioned). He isn't saying "Billie Jean says I'm the father of her children, therefore women are liars". He's an artist creating a story in which the woman is the "antagonist".

That's almost like a guy having a very bad experience with one particular woman and talking about how awful she was and then being called misogynistic for speaking bad about her. I don't think MJ paints all women with the same brush in any song that may be negative about one particular girl.
 
innuendo141 said:
But the song(s) is about one woman that has done X or Y, so I don't see how misogyny can really come into it as he is only singing about one woman (in each of the songs you mentioned). He isn't saying "Billie Jean says I'm the father of her children, therefore women are liars". He's an artist creating a story in which the woman is the "antagonist".

That's almost like a guy having a very bad experience with one particular woman and talking about how awful she was and then being called misogynistic for speaking bad about her. I don't think MJ paints all women with the same brush in any song that may be negative about one particular girl.
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I can see that being a valid argument if MJ had used the stereotype sparsely, maybe limited to one or two songs. But it becomes problematic when he repeatedly uses the negative view of the same stereotype. There's a compound effect which can be considered indicative of a larger attitude to women within his music. I'm sure he even has a song named Streetwalker.

While I agree MJ has other songs which may balance out this view, for me personally, it doesn't negate that the stereotype is there. And I can see how it can be interpreted as having misogynistic undertones, irrespective of whether I agree with this.
 
jasmine.uddin said:
It's not just the songs, he even represented women as prostitutes. [...] I don't doubt that his experiences shaped his music, as is the case with any artist, but there is a reoccurring theme there.
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As far as we know (as per today), Michael had been first exposed to the hooker theme by Rod Temperton's "Hot Street".

Since this was a song he loved so much, it shouldn't be surprising he'd kept to try to recreate his "own" Hot Street.
 
How dare he make songs about prostitutes. Everyone knows they don't exist in real life. Flabbergasted.

I think what many people here don't consider is that he tells stories with his songs. Not necessarily his view. But I already wrote that. And the thing about generalising. But, well.

Pete and Repeat... 💁
 
I don't think MJ was a mysoginist at all, I just think he was clearly fascinated with a femme fatale motif in his art and that he often used it as an allegory to portrait more abstract "predators" (fame, the music industry, addiction etc)

Also, let's remember his context and background. I'm pretty sure he had a certain level of mistrust for "seductresses" fed not only by his experience with how groupies operated, but also by his extreme religious upbringing. a combo that would mess up anyone's perception of the opposite gender. On top of that, if we want to believe he was literally groomed by an older seductress (Diana Ross) that only paints a more traumatic picture for him
 
I want to clarify that the issue isn't that he writes about prostitutes, it's that he repeatedly writes about such women using negative stereotypes which sympathizes the male perspective without holding them in any way responsible for the scenarios he is critiquing the woman of.
 
on a more lighter note, MJ also showed sympathy and genuine fascination for the "prostitute" figure. he dedicated a whole semi love song to such a woman (Streetwalker) and his postmortem released songs like Slave to the Rhythm shows he clearly empathizes with them.
 
jasmine.uddin said:
I want to clarify that the issue isn't that he writes about prostitutes, it's that he repeatedly writes about such women using negative stereotypes which sympathizes the male perspective without holding them in any way responsible for the scenarios he is critiquing the woman of.
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I doubt that the male perspective (often his own) in such songs need to be taken as reliable. the more blatant example, Billie Jean, has people still questioning how much the male POV lies about not fathering the kid and not taking responsability for being seduced.
 
Zizzistar said:
I doubt that the male perspective (often his own) in such songs need to be taken as reliable. the more blatant example, Billie Jean, has people still questioning how much the male POV lies about not fathering the kid and not taking responsability for being seduced.
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But that interpretation is not one offered by the song itself. The perspective he (or any artist) offers in such songs (or any songs) is perfectly valid to be explored. We should be able to separate the art from the artist.
 
jasmine.uddin said:
But that interpretation is not one offered by the song itself.
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how not?? if you genuinely believe that, it's not that you think MJ was a mysoginist, more a shitty songwriter.

MJ's songs like BJ, DD, Dangerous etc clearly wants you to doubt about his supposed innocence in these torbid affairs.. songs in general don't have to be taken so literally
 
Zizzistar said:
how not?? if you genuinely believe that, it's not that you think MJ was a mysoginist, more a shitty songwriter.

MJ's songs like BJ, DD, Dangerous etc clearly wants you to doubt about his supposed innocence in these torbid affairs.. songs in general don't have to be taken so literally
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I never said I agreed that MJ was a misogynist, and I mentioned that these are great songs. But I can see where the criticism stems from. I can see where these songs collectively leave room for such an interpretation of his music.
 
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