Are we setting ourselves up for disappointment?

[AlwaysThere]

For the last few years I've seen hundreds upon hundreds of posts based on the upcoming projects the estate is due to deliver between now and 2017. I've seen dozens of ideas that could do well, including a box set of primarily unfinished material and a soundtrack for Cirque du Soleil's ONE, along with ideas that are extremely far fetched, including a DVD of the Dangerous Tour in Tokyo. Then when the next project is finally announced, it is usually NOT what we wanted, causing us to be upset with the estate.

Which begs the question: should we really be upset with ourselves?

At this point we know that the estate does not have everything. And this isn't their fault entirely; Michael's archiving was extremely sporadic. We can't be mad at them because they can't find exactly what we want. And we can't start EXPECTING things to happen. For example, the recent petition for a Dangerous show in Tokyo from 1992. This is a good reason of why we keep disappointing ourselves. There is no evidence that the show in Tokyo truly exist in full, and if it does, there's no reason to believe that the estate has it or can locate it. By 2016, if Dangerous 25 happens and the Tokyo show isn't included, fans will be disappointed. But again, they thrust it on themselves, because they started expecting things that may or may not be reasonable.

For another example, Bad 25. Fans expected a high quality DVD/Blu-ray of the concert because the estate is supposed to have everything, along with at least ten unheard demos. Fans then became enraged when the estate delivered a VHS copy, the only copy currently known to exist. They also delivered six demos and two remixes (actually three, although one is just a radio edit). Fans started complaining that the estate should have given us more, when they already searched through warehouses to find the film masters that were eventually never located, sent the VHS to a restoration company to bring it up to the highest possible standards (although I will admit some minor touch ups still need to be done) and gave us four more demos than Michael himself did for Thriller 25. Slight disappointment is reasonable, but anyone who complains that the box set could have been done better is just selfish.

All I'm saying is that fans need to step back and stop expecting things to happen. Especially in the case of future concert releases (although at this point I personally think any concert release is useless). Dont' disappoint yourselves.

 

[AlwaysThere]

Second point I forgot to make: people are mad and are boycotting the Estate because of all the projects we've gotten thusfar. When, in reality... these projects haven't been all bad.

2010: Vision
+ Neat collection of all Michael's music videos
+ First release of Michael's final music video ever, One More Chance
+ Great packaging with booklet with high quality pictures
- Some of the videos aren't in the best quality available

2010: Michael
+ First official release of seven previously unheard, fantastic songs
- Inclusion of the Cascio tracks
- Overproduction

2011: Immortal
+ Alternate vocals to some of Michael's biggest hits
+ Interesting, fun remixes
- Essentially useless release

2012: Bad 25
+ Six previously unheard demos/recordings
+ High-quality concert CD from the 1988 Wembley concert
+ First official release of the long-petitioned 1988 Wembley concert
+ Great packaging with fantastic bonus features (posters, stickers, jackets, vinyls, etc.)
+ Two great booklets featuring high quality previously unseen photos
- Decent-quality copy of Wembley sourced from VHS tape

If you look at it, the only project to be sensibly mad at is Michael. Maybe even Immortal. But every other reason is purely selfish.

 

[Rudolf]

I agree, we shouldn't be expecting anything. If they, however, do surprise us, great. If they don't, at least we didn't raise hopes.

 

[MJ*PP]

i wouldnt say im upset, but im not satisfied which is something quite different. MICHAEL may be the only of the list thats being pointed at, but it really is almost the most important one. Why? Its the first actual ALBUM that gets released 1. after his passing where he gained more fans 2. even non fans were interested to see what his new album had to offer after his passing + first album in few years. And it was disappointing. Its different from the Immortal album which has to do with the CdS show, its no anniversary of another album so it had to be extra special.
I forgot the other half of what i wanted to say but ill add it later

 

[SoCav]

It is a mixed bag in my opinion. Firstly, yes, I do think it is best to have low expectations because to me, most of the projects the Estate has released have been disappointing. I had high hopes for the 'Michael' album back in 2010 and we all know what that led to. After that, I stopped expecting much. As a result, I quite enjoyed the Bad 25 release, even though I can also understand why people had higher expectations of this release.

But although I think it is good for fans to be realistic in order to avoid disappointment, I do not think having low expectations should mean that we treat every release as if it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I am all for trying to enjoy new projects as much as we can, but at the same time it is important to let the Estate know when we are unhappy with what they came up with. If we do not, we will never see improvements. Similarly, I also think it is fine for fans to create petitions such as the Tokyo '92 one. After all, if this had not been done, it is quite likely that we would have never seen a Bad Tour '88 dvd.

So, in my opinion, I think not expecting too much is probably a good thing in the sense that it will lead to less disappointment, but at the same time, it should not lead to us become complacent and just blindly accept whatever the Estate decides to bring out. Although we can never expect future releases to be of the quality that the work that Michael released during his lifetime had, I do think we are allowed to expect certain standards to be met. Michael was the ultimate perfectionist and his legacy deserves to be treated as such.

 

[juantp1]

2012: Bad 25
+ Six previously unheard demos/recordings
+ High-quality concert CD from the 1988 Wembley concert
+ First official release of the long-petitioned 1988 Wembley concert
+ Great packaging with fantastic bonus features (posters, stickers, jackets, vinyls, etc.)
+ Two great booklets featuring high quality previously unseen photos
- Decent-quality copy of Wembley sourced from VHS tape
- Horrible live audio editing (cut intros, cut songs, cut endings).

 

[AlwaysThere]

2012: Bad 25
+ Six previously unheard demos/recordings
+ High-quality concert CD from the 1988 Wembley concert
+ First official release of the long-petitioned 1988 Wembley concert
+ Great packaging with fantastic bonus features (posters, stickers, jackets, vinyls, etc.)
+ Two great booklets featuring high quality previously unseen photos
- Decent-quality copy of Wembley sourced from VHS tape
- Horrible live audio editing (cut intros, cut songs, cut endings).

If you mean on the live CD, they had no choice. A normal CD only holds 79 minutes of audio, and the entire Wembley concert is around 120 minutes. They needed to make some necessary cuts for the concert to fit.

It is a mixed bag in my opinion. Firstly, yes, I do think it is best to have low expectations because to me, most of the projects the Estate has released have been disappointing. I had high hopes for the 'Michael' album back in 2010 and we all know what that led to. After that, I stopped expecting much. As a result, I quite enjoyed the Bad 25 release, even though I can also understand why people had higher expectations of this release.

But although I think it is good for fans to be realistic in order to avoid disappointment, I do not think having low expectations should mean that we treat every release as if it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I am all for trying to enjoy new projects as much as we can, but at the same time it is important to let the Estate know when we are unhappy with what they came up with. If we do not, we will never see improvements. Similarly, I also think it is fine for fans to create petitions such as the Tokyo '92 one. After all, if this had not been done, it is quite likely that we would have never seen a Bad Tour '88 dvd.

So, in my opinion, I think not expecting too much is probably a good thing in the sense that it will lead to less disappointment, but at the same time, it should not lead to us become complacent and just blindly accept whatever the Estate decides to bring out. Although we can never expect future releases to be of the quality that the work that Michael released during his lifetime had, I do think we are allowed to expect certain standards to be met. Michael was the ultimate perfectionist and his legacy deserves to be treated as such.

That's true and I understand why fans would be disappointed. Most of the estate's releases HAVE been extremely bad. But Bad 25 was very well done and it seems the estate did sincerely try their hardest to give us what we wanted. We don't need to accept every single thing they give us, we just need to be grateful for them. (Or, most of them at least.)

In terms of the petitions for the Dangerous tour, I still think it's, again, leading us up to break us down. The estate already said that they over-anticipated what they had in storage and warehouses and all that currently exists of the Wembley show is the low-quality VHS copy. If fans keep making petitions like this, the estate COULD go looking for it and wind up with another VHS copy. Or they could wind up with absolutely nothing. I remember the Wembley petition came to be because fans saw high quality film cuts from it. Upon a search I couldn't find any high quality Tokyo footage which causes me to believe fans are just hoping. Again, not a bad thing, but it's just pushing you to be disappointed.

 

[144000]

The great point we can take from your post, Always there, is something we fans could learn about the Estate and life itself. When Michael was here, as well. Expect the unexpected. There are so many MJ fans in the world, each expecting different things..not all can be pleased, especially if they have specific ideas. Whether in Michael's concerts, when he was here, or now, with the Estate, or in life, itself..all things that have pleased most people, i'm sure, have been unexpected things. And the disappointment usually came, when we expected something, based on the unexpected thing that thrilled us, in the first place. I suppose, if we, are in a positive sense..naive..like we all are about the future..we can be happier with the results, even though i can understand that we can't necessarily be naive, in that way, on purpose. I guess it's a learning experience..lol. But i think, that way, we can find positives in what we first railed on about. Although..with 'Michael'...well...that's another story.

 

[mj_brainiac]

Although the options of using the master tapes for Vision and Live At Wembley weren't chosen by the MJ Estate, I don't agree that Michael's archiving was sporadic. I think they went with the cheapest and convienant option with Vision and we don't know the state of the reels or umatic for the Wembley concert

 

[Ashtanga]

:fear:

 

[8701girl]

I think the bad25 boxset was their best release yet

But yes they need to do more stuff with mj releases

 

[morinen]

Good try, but it's impossible to make fans not expect things.

I personally am happy with any release as long as it supports Michael's legacy. I'm grateful for all of them except Michael, which caused more harm than good. That said, I'm hoping to hear ALL of Michael's unreleased songs at some point in life

 

[CaptainEoLove85]

Personally, I've learned to not have high expectations after the Michael album. I'm not as fussy about quality...although it should at least be decent. As long as it's 100% authentic MJ, then I'm pretty happy with it. I think the Estate should release whatever they have, if it's in good condition. Anything unreleased that is Michael, I'll take it.

 

[André89]

The Vision and Immortal releases were in my opinion decent attempts by the estate, and allthouh it's not the most well-used items in my colletion, I to appreciate them for what they are.
Bad 25 was amazing, though. A spectacular concert we've been dying to see for years, finally a live CD, and six outstanding never-before heard songs, some of which we didn't even know existed. A true gem!
The Michael album, hovewer.. Man, that was terrible. Great songs butchered to death by overconfident producers, other people changing Michael's vision completely, and not to mention the ever-lasting stain on Michael's legacy better known as the CASCIO tracks. I really wish that one never had happened.

 

[Alec]

It is a mixed bag in my opinion. Firstly, yes, I do think it is best to have low expectations because to me, most of the projects the Estate has released have been disappointing. I had high hopes for the 'Michael' album back in 2010 and we all know what that led to. After that, I stopped expecting much. As a result, I quite enjoyed the Bad 25 release, even though I can also understand why people had higher expectations of this release.

But although I think it is good for fans to be realistic in order to avoid disappointment, I do not think having low expectations should mean that we treat every release as if it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I am all for trying to enjoy new projects as much as we can, but at the same time it is important to let the Estate know when we are unhappy with what they came up with. If we do not, we will never see improvements. Similarly, I also think it is fine for fans to create petitions such as the Tokyo '92 one. After all, if this had not been done, it is quite likely that we would have never seen a Bad Tour '88 dvd.

So, in my opinion, I think not expecting too much is probably a good thing in the sense that it will lead to less disappointment, but at the same time, it should not lead to us become complacent and just blindly accept whatever the Estate decides to bring out. Although we can never expect future releases to be of the quality that the work that Michael released during his lifetime had, I do think we are allowed to expect certain standards to be met. Michael was the ultimate perfectionist and his legacy deserves to be treated as such.

The guy in charge of Elvis releases for the first 15 years after his passing thought there were 4 unreleased recordings. Here we are 20 years since Ernst Jorgensen took over, more than 100 releases since and Ernst STILL actively searching and FINDING new tracks.

The problem with the current executors of the Estate is their utter incompetence. Not only did they release three fake songs on an official album, but 4 years after Michael died, they have NOT even archived what is known to exist by anyone with access to the internet!

The possibly only existing tape of a complete song "Joy" is still rotting somewhere in Teddy Riley's basement. A fire, a flood, an earthquake... a simple burglary and this precious tape might be gone forever. All it takes is a call that one of the Johns had to make and the record would be secured forever. But it seems like that's too much to ask?

The same happened with the Bad Tour Wembley multitrack recordings - if it wasn't for the persistence of the person in possession of the tapes trying to hand them over to the Estate, we would have never heard them.

This begs the question as to what is happening with the recordings most people have not even heard of - songs that Michael recorded by himself (the Bahrain songs, the Ireland recordings?), songs that he recorded with lesser known collaborators, live shows (soundboards, multitracks), live footage. The fact is neither McClain nor Branca are actively searching for this material - they just sit around on their asses waiting around for things to magically materialize, while acquisition of such material requires effort and ACTIVE involvement. It's field work, you need to get out there, go through stacks upon stacks of old, unmarked boxes,t alk to people from the industry, meet with private collectors. It simply won't happen if you sit in your office and wait for the phone to ring and tapes delivered at your doorstep.

That Michael's archives were in disarray is a poor excuse when 4 years after his death they didn't even take the time to archive the most obvious material.

And all of the above comes before we can even start thinking about what's wrong with the actual projects they release. And boy, there's a lot to talk about...

 

[qbee]

Alec how do you know what the estate is archiving or not and how do you know they are sitting on there asses just waiting for material to magically materialise. Where did you get that from ? Just because they haven't made a personal report or made public what they have archived doesn't mean they are not searching and and gathering up all they can find. You are just speculating and thats quite a guess on your part. because in reality we all know , you have no idea what they are doing or what they have archived any more than we do.

 

[Alec]

The fact that by March 2013 it was Teddy Riley's own INTENTION to deliver the only existing tape of "Joy" to the estate is a pretty good indication of what is happening. The fact that the engineer who recorded the Wembley shows and was in possession of the only existing copy had to actively pursue the Estate (and not the other way around!) to have the tapes released is another one. The fact that they only started archiving the material from Bad sessions when Bad 25 was about to be released and did not do it before speaks volumes on the lack of continuity of their process of archiving any material.

I do know for a fact from private correspondence they are not in possession of another unreleased, fairly recently recorded song and never tried to obtain a copy of it. I also know from the only person who has demos of Michael's 2009 classical compositions (because he recorded them himself) that he was never approached to hand them over.

If you are interested in what has NOT been happening with visual material, feel free to contact Michael's personal photographer Hamid Moslehi. There has been no interest from the Estate to secure this precious material whatsoever.

 

[souldreamer7]

I am upset or not satisfied because Michael's filmed short films looked better before the Visions collection it stinks and I like the originals better, Michael would be flipping out if he seen his short films on Visions

 

[Sunwalker7]

Good points imo by the OP. We all have our ideas and hopes for future releases, but it’s unreasonable to expect all releases to be exactly the way we wanted them and then be mad when they release something different. We aren’t entitled to get everything we want. And just because a release isn’t custom-made to suit my taste, it doesn’t mean the Estate is doing their job poorly.

Even if the Estate had all the possible material, they still wouldn’t be able to make everyone happy because fans want completely different things. And they can’t just worry about fans, they also need to release something to keep casual listeners’ interest up and also attract new fans. There’s just no way they could make everyone happy no matter what they decide to release.

It's not that fans have to be happy with absolutely everything the Estate might choose to release, or that we can't criticize anything, but I worry that we can lose sight of the big picture if we focus too much on how release X should have been this instead of that. Bad25, for example, was a great release on the whole. The video quality wasn’t perfect, but that’s pretty trivial in the bigger scheme of things. It got positive feedback and it put the focus back on Michael’s music instead of tabloid garbage, and that to me is far more important than whether it was exactly the way I personally wanted it to be.

 

[Galactus123]

For example, the recent petition for a Dangerous show in Tokyo from 1992. This is a good reason of why we keep disappointing ourselves. There is no evidence that the show in Tokyo truly exist in full, and if it does, there's no reason to believe that the estate has it or can locate it.

All of Michael's solo tour concerts were recorded on video by Nocturne Productions. They didn't just throw away the Jumbotron footage they shot after the tour. I think Estate has something like 60-80% of all solo tour concerts so they might have Tokyo concerts. Your are right that we shouldn't demand one spesific concert because then we might get VHS quality concert again. They should release the best quality concert they have that has Bad and The Way You Make Me Feel in the setlist.

 

[Rudolf]

For Vision they should've made new transfers from the masters and invest money in remaking thus it would've been a top notch thing out there, albeit it would be a huge and expensive project. They could release a blu-ray of that and pack with extras like interviews of MJ, occasion performances (I dunno, Superbowl '93 as an example?), like Queen did with 2 bonus DVDs in the Greatest Video Hits 4 DVD set.
Instead they did a "digital remaster" with handful of technical flaws. Utterly pointless release, since we already have MJ videos released on DVDs except for very few ones (One More Chance etc).

 

[MIST]

I also know from the only person who has demos of Michael's 2009 classical compositions (because he recorded them himself) that he was never approached to hand them over.

I don´t understand why he haven´t contacted the estate yet and given them Michael´s demos.He could of course give them a bill too for the work he had done.

 

[StellaJackson]

I think we just have to wait and see what happens.

 

[Neverland_Valley]

Most of the estate's releases HAVE been extremely bad. But Bad 25 was very well done and it seems the estate did sincerely try their hardest to give us what we wanted.

Why do you think that they tried their hardest? I think Spike Lee really tried his hardest to please the fans. After seeing his documentary, I wished he was leading the estate. I think we just should stop expecting anything from any future release (as we'll probably be disappointed) and just enjoy the good things as they come (in the case there are any). I used to have big expectations, but at the moment I'd just be glad if the next release isn't a catastrophe.

 

[Annita]

If you are interested in what has NOT been happening with visual material, feel free to contact Michael's personal photographer Hamid Moslehi. There has been no interest from the Estate to secure this precious material whatsoever.

I personal don`t see Hamid Moslehi as reliable source.

 

[MJ*PP]

only thing im really hoping for is that there wont be another mix release because of the ONE show. Id freak out. Maybe no anniversary releases either. unless its a complete album with 2 disc, one old release, one with songs that were recorded for that album that didnt make it. I wonder if they have any protocol theyre using in their releases, or at least since BAD25, as it turned out pretty good imo.

 

[StellaJackson]

All of Michael's solo tour concerts were recorded on video by Nocturne Productions. They didn't just throw away the Jumbotron footage they shot after the tour. I think Estate has something like 60-80% of all solo tour concerts so they might have Tokyo concerts. Your are right that we shouldn't demand one spesific concert because then we might get VHS quality concert again. They should release the best quality concert they have that has Bad and The Way You Make Me Feel in the setlist.

Recorded yes, but were they kept and where are they? I get the feeling they are in posession of very little concert footage.

Also, as Alec said, they have not even approached certain people who are known to have very recent material. Thing is, after the disaster that was the Michael album, they don't want to hand it in anyway for fear that it will be butchered.

 

[WildStyle]

The guy in charge of Elvis releases for the first 15 years after his passing thought there were 4 unreleased recordings. Here we are 20 years since Ernst Jorgensen took over, more than 100 releases since and Ernst STILL actively searching and FINDING new tracks.

The problem with the current executors of the Estate is their utter incompetence. Not only did they release three fake songs on an official album, but 4 years after Michael died, they have NOT even archived what is known to exist by anyone with access to the internet!

The possibly only existing tape of a complete song "Joy" is still rotting somewhere in Teddy Riley's basement. A fire, a flood, an earthquake... a simple burglary and this precious tape might be gone forever. All it takes is a call that one of the Johns had to make and the record would be secured forever. But it seems like that's too much to ask?

The same happened with the Bad Tour Wembley multitrack recordings - if it wasn't for the persistence of the person in possession of the tapes trying to hand them over to the Estate, we would have never heard them.

This begs the question as to what is happening with the recordings most people have not even heard of - songs that Michael recorded by himself (the Bahrain songs, the Ireland recordings?), songs that he recorded with lesser known collaborators, live shows (soundboards, multitracks), live footage. The fact is neither McClain nor Branca are actively searching for this material - they just sit around on their asses waiting around for things to magically materialize, while acquisition of such material requires effort and ACTIVE involvement. It's field work, you need to get out there, go through stacks upon stacks of old, unmarked boxes,t alk to people from the industry, meet with private collectors. It simply won't happen if you sit in your office and wait for the phone to ring and tapes delivered at your doorstep.

That Michael's archives were in disarray is a poor excuse when 4 years after his death they didn't even take the time to archive the most obvious material.

And all of the above comes before we can even start thinking about what's wrong with the actual projects they release. And boy, there's a lot to talk about...

You are right on the money. Unfortunately I don't see things changing any time soon.

 

[HIStory]

The guy in charge of Elvis releases for the first 15 years after his passing thought there were 4 unreleased recordings. Here we are 20 years since Ernst Jorgensen took over, more than 100 releases since and Ernst STILL actively searching and FINDING new tracks.

The problem with the current executors of the Estate is their utter incompetence. Not only did they release three fake songs on an official album, but 4 years after Michael died, they have NOT even archived what is known to exist by anyone with access to the internet!

The possibly only existing tape of a complete song "Joy" is still rotting somewhere in Teddy Riley's basement. A fire, a flood, an earthquake... a simple burglary and this precious tape might be gone forever. All it takes is a call that one of the Johns had to make and the record would be secured forever. But it seems like that's too much to ask?

The same happened with the Bad Tour Wembley multitrack recordings - if it wasn't for the persistence of the person in possession of the tapes trying to hand them over to the Estate, we would have never heard them.

This begs the question as to what is happening with the recordings most people have not even heard of - songs that Michael recorded by himself (the Bahrain songs, the Ireland recordings?), songs that he recorded with lesser known collaborators, live shows (soundboards, multitracks), live footage. The fact is neither McClain nor Branca are actively searching for this material - they just sit around on their asses waiting around for things to magically materialize, while acquisition of such material requires effort and ACTIVE involvement. It's field work, you need to get out there, go through stacks upon stacks of old, unmarked boxes,t alk to people from the industry, meet with private collectors. It simply won't happen if you sit in your office and wait for the phone to ring and tapes delivered at your doorstep.

That Michael's archives were in disarray is a poor excuse when 4 years after his death they didn't even take the time to archive the most obvious material.

And all of the above comes before we can even start thinking about what's wrong with the actual projects they release. And boy, there's a lot to talk about...

That's very sad, if true. Maybe the Johns should stick to running the business side and should hire someone who would run the artistic side - someone with good ears and sight, with a good sense of quality, and who also has a genuine interest in and love for Michael's work. I think it's important to be a genuine fan of the artist's work - because the more you care, the better work you can do.

 

[Galactus123]

Recorded yes, but were they kept and where are they? I get the feeling they are in posession of very little concert footage.

From Bad 25 Deluxe edition tour booklet:

"Michael left us with a priceless collection of these tapes, one of which turned out to be from the July 16, 1988 concert."