Latest on MJJC

Conrad Murray releases video

reibish said:
Murray can try to backpedal all he wants. NOTHING excuses him for walking away when he knew Michael was anesthetized....
Click to expand...

He's saying Michael WASN'T anesthetized when he walked away, that the effects of the propofol he gave him had worn off by the time he left him.

Personally I'm prepared to hear more from him - I think he highlighted some extremely dodgy goings on in that court room.
 
VeraR said:
He's saying Michael WASN'T anesthetized when he walked away, that the effects of the propofol he gave him had worn off by the time he left him.
Click to expand...

He still left the room with everything going on. He was still using it in a medically unsafe environment, whether or not it had "worn off" - it should have been secured. And I just don't believe it. Granted, propofol has a very quick turnaround, but with the exhaustion Michael was dealing with, and the fact he was using it much more heavily than anyone else and that he had likely gone nearly three months without REM because of it - he should not have left him like that. I still believe Murray was the one who did it but it doesn't matter - he was still responsible. He was the medically trained "professional," not Michael. That's why he was hired.

To be honest, no one is ever going to know exactly what happened. There were only two people in the room when the worst parts happened - and one of them can't speak for himself anymore.

I agree there are many holes in the case but the fact Murray keeps avoiding is that no matter what, no matter how it was twisted, he was medically irresponsible in every sense of the word. The propofol shouldn't have been in the room PERIOD. From start to finish. Not just June 25. He knew what he was doing was wrong - and refuses to admit it.

Like I said, when he answers that, and takes responsibility for his actions, and it's not some lame "Michael wanted it," excuse, then I am willing to hear him out. Doctors said "no" in the past to Michael. They were fired, sure, but he didn't die in their care, did he? Nope.

I believe there were many, many other things going on around Michael when he died and that Murray just happened to make a slew of insane mistakes in the middle of them all, and that he was separate from what was going on. He was the fall guy and took all the attention and heat from others trying to control (not kill) Michael.

But a doctor that won't admit mistakes he made, and then tries to justify his reasoning with poor logic that no one in the medical community agrees with - is not going to get my sympathy.
 
^^About the last 2 posts: Well I don't believe Muarry was a fall guy. From listening to each witness on the stand during that trial there is no evidence I see to name him a fall guy. If someone points out what shows he is a fall guy, then I will look at that. Also, I see no "dodgy goings on in the courtroom." Now if someone wants to point out to me the dodgy goings on then I will take a look at it.
 
Conrad Murray had four lawyers and an unrestricted opportunity to present any and all information proving Michael wasn’t on a Propofol drip and injected himself at trial. His lies didn’t work and he was found to be guilty of ordering, administering and abandoning Michael by a jury of 12 competent individuals. All the speculation about Murray being the so called “Fall Guy” is based on air not substance.
 
Petrarose said:
If someone points out what shows he is a fall guy...
Click to expand...

I could have been using the phrase in an incorrect context, but what I mean by it is that he's pretty much the incidental diversion from those who had other interests in Michael's well-being. I can't really describe it. I don't believe there was an intent to kill him, but rather control and subdue him. That he brought Branca back on his team just a week before he died is a big tell to me - and he did it in a very very quick way.

Many people try to sensationalize saying that Michael believed someone wanted him dead. I'm sure he DID say something along those lines, but I believe he was probably dramatizing the effect rehearsal and AEG's demands were having on him, rather than a plot to actually murder him. However he was a smart guy, and he may have suspected something was up. I don't know - I just get the feeling that beyond his own seclusive behavior, there were powerful gatekeepers that didn't want anyone to have any access to him, moreso than usual. We'll never know, obviously, there are just many things that don't sit well with me. I have a bunch of stuff written down about it, but I don't have access to those notes right now. Maybe if I dig them up I'll post a separate thread.

So when I say that Murray was "the fall guy," I don't mean to imply that he was involved in that, but that he just happened to be in the place at the time. He took the heat and almost the entire brunt of blame for Michael's death (well-deserved, mind), but there WERE things going on outside of his control, or even knowledge, where Michael could have ended up in a sitting duck position like he was.

And, separate from all that off-topic stuff, Murray was STILL 100% responsible for his medical "care" of Michael and what happened June 25. Like, the whole thing was just a gigantic trainwreck, two waiting to happen, in fact - and they just intersected.
 
reibish said:
I could have been using the phrase in an incorrect context, but what I mean by it is that he's pretty much the incidental diversion from those who had other interests in Michael's well-being. I can't really describe it. I don't believe there was an intent to kill him, but rather control and subdue him. That he brought Branca back on his team just a week before he died is a big tell to me - and he did it in a very very quick way.
Click to expand...

I only wanted to focus on the first paragraph:

Muarry is Not an incidental diversion^^. For anyone who followed the trial the facts show that he had a direct hand in Michael's demise. To even write that to me is showing that Muarry's actions were not serious.

Now the issue about Michael becoming non-living on 6/25, involves only one person--Muarry. Of course you can say Michael too because he allowed Muarry to treat him with prof. It has nothing to do with Branca, Dileo, the family, Klien--even though Klien was used by the defense to claim that Michael was having withdrawals from Klien's demerol. there is no other that had interests in Michael's well-being on June 25 except Muarry. Also, what does Branca being brought back have to do with what Muarry did on June 25? By the way I am curious, did you sit and follow this whole trial from top to bottom? I mean were you able to look at the footage of all the witnesses and the evidence for each and every day of the trial? If you did you will see that bringing in Branca was not part of the evidence to show that someone other than Muarry was responsible for Michael's death. Michael's sleeping treatment involved only Muarry. Additionally, you should take a look at the thread about the notes that the defense had which one of the T's found and gave to Katherine's side. One of the notes in particular shows that Michael wanted Muarry to practice, so again, what does Branca and others have to do with what happened that night on 6/25.

I think to understand the death we need to look at real facts and the models the experts explained very well indeed.
 
Last edited:
Michael´s body was "swimming" in propofol.. who do you think gave it to him..?

Edit: I know Murray gave it to him, I´m just wondering what makes people think anything else..
 
I don't think Murray was in the wrong place at the wrong time, a fall guy, or that there were any holes in the case or any dodgy goings on. It was about as cut and dried as it could be that he hooked Michael up and then went out of the room and made phone calls. Based on what HE said to the police with his attorney present. He gave them the whole entire story. He handed them the whole case.

I just sat there with my mouth open and visualized this whole scene way before Shaeffer did his demonstration-which was just like I pictured it.

I remember when he was first charged and the real story came out (and at the time I didn't know propofol was anything really bad except that it knocked you out and I knew Michael was desperate to sleep and get ready for these shows) and it took me about 20 seconds to go into Murray's place-1-I wouldn't have left the room 2-I would have peed in a cup if I were desperate and 3-actually, I would have just worn an adult diaper (like that astronaut did to drive cross country).

After that 20 seconds I thought he should rot in jail for manslaughter. Period.
 
Petrarose said:
Additionally, you should take a look at the thread about the notes that the defense had which one of the T's found and gave to Katherine's side. One of the notes in particular shows that Michael wanted Muarry to practice, so again, what does Branca and others have to do with what happened that night on 6/25.
Click to expand...

I DID follow the trial. I state pretty clearly that I believe there are two SEPARATE, entirely un-related things going on that put Michael in the position he was in. This is what I mean about Murray being the fall guy - ALL the blame about his death goes on him and no one is any the wiser because, well, it IS all on him. Murray and only Murray is responsible for what happened to Michael on June 25, and all the medical treatment he received.

I believe there was something else going on with Michael in a legal way that had NOTHING to do with his medical treatment - and that the handlers involved with controlling him had no idea what Murray was doing to Michael medically and that Murray was NOT AT ALL involved. Murray was tried for involuntary manslaughter and that is what he committed, and that is all he was involved with. I'm saying there was an ENTIRE SEPARATE operation that Murray had NO clue of and because Murray was found guilty (as he is!) that that's all there was to it. That's why I'm not going into more detail because this thread is about Murray's BS, not the other things that I personally believe were going on around Michael. Essentially a conspiracy to control him legally and financially. I don't like using that word but that's what I think it was.

The only person responsible for 06/25 is Murray. The other things I mentioned are clues I believe point to an attempt to control Michael, he just happened to die under Murray's care, and that Murray's stupidity was completely separate from other things that he was not involved in.
 
^But what you say you mean about a fall-guy is not a fall guy. You can't say Muarry is to be blamed and at the same time call him a fall guy.

In talking about Muarry and his crime, why you bring in all those other things about your conspiracy? I am still trying to understand that. We were talking about this video and you bring up the other things that were going on with Michael, but those things have nothing to do with Muarry and his foolish theory. There is no 2 separate things going on that put michael in the situation he was in on 6/25^^. Muarry gave him drugs and left him unattended. The other things you mention had no impact on Muarry's actions so you can't say these separate things placed him in the situation he was in. He couldn't sleep and used a method to get sleep. He was not monitored and the doc gave him a cocktail of drugs. The doc did not know how to do CPR. The doc waited too long to call for help. What other 2nd separate thing placed Michael in that situation of death on 6/25 except Muarry?

I don't know maybe because I am not into these conspiracy theories that lack concrete facts that I am not getting this.
Maybe you want to say that different things were going on in the dynamics of rehearsals, getting new team members, trying to work on his appearance, dealing with team-players which impacted on his energy and physical/emotional state. Yet even if you man this that still did not cause what Muarry did not 6/25.
 
I defended my stance because others were completely misunderstanding a side comment I made and conflating what I was saying. I deliberately have not gone into details about the other things I believe were going on around Michael beacuse they don't pertain to this thread

Please RE-READ everything THOROUGHLY, like in Private Home Movies when Michael washed his hair after they kept throwing him into the pool! The questions you have are already answered in my previous replies. Not just my posts but those that were replying to me. Others were confused about what I meant and I had to clarify - nothing more.

I'm not going to answer anything else regarding this unless someone demonstrates full comprehension of what I've said.

Also, I did in fact use the term correctly (well, mostly)
 
First of all, how many of you have actually watched Murray's full 3 hour powerpoint presentation? Most importantly, watched with an open mind? I suspect some of the commentators here reached conclusions years ago and are not prepared to reassess them.

I'm coming from the angle of 'what if' ... what if Murray is telling the truth now; what if things on June 25th did not happen the way they were portrayed in court; what if he didn't speak up at the time because he and his lawyers truly believed the prosecution hadn't proved the case against him and there was therefore no need; what if Shafer and his hypothetical scenarios and charts, Walgren (now a judge) and his evidence tampering and Alvarez with his fabricated testimony and media enticements are what caused the jury to reached their guilty verdict? Is that a justice system you are comfortable with?

Someone mentioned 'real facts', but seriously, can any one of us really claim to have any of those? We are presented with what those in power would have us believe. Sorry, that's a bit off-topic - or maybe not.

Reibish, you said "There were only two people in the room when the worst parts happened - and one of them can't speak for himself anymore." Exactly, so why would we not want to hear what the other has to say? Rather late in the day granted, but it IS possible he has genuine reasons for not speaking out before.

You also mentioned 'no one in the medical community' agreeing with Murray. But did you catch the part where Murray shows Shafer set out to destroy him, by saying Propofol should not be used in a home setting, yet he, Shafer, supported another doctor for doing the same in an even less professional situation?

Petrarose, you said "Now if someone wants to point out to me the dodgy goings on then I will take a look at it." Murray, IMO, is doing that in his presentation. Don't take my word for it (I know you haven't!) - go back and listen to him.
 
He's saying Michael WASN'T anesthetized when he walked away, that the effects of the propofol he gave him had worn off by the time he left him.
Click to expand...

Murray didn´t just give propofol, he gave other drugs in large quantities with no clue how they worked together.Combined with these drugs I don´t think you can say how the effects would be.
And if Murray thought the propofol had worn off, he left a patient who he said was addicted to propofol alone with the drug and needles.
I know Michael didn´t selfinject but if he had I still had put the blame on Murray for leaving a heavy drugged patient with dangerous drugs.
 
MIST;4027034 said:
Murray didn´t just give propofol, he gave other drugs in large quantities with no clue how they worked together.Combined with these drugs I don´t think you can say how the effects would be.
And if Murray thought the propofol had worn off, he left a patient who he said was addicted to propofol alone with the drug and needles.
I know Michael didn´t selfinject but if he had I still had put the blame on Murray for leaving a heavy drugged patient with dangerous drugs.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Sometimes I wonder if I am really seeing what I read above. I am not even going to go into muarry's theories because the appeal judge & prosecution went over it a million times, explained its errors, & kicked it out. It seems he still does not understand what they wrote & neither does his attorney. If anyone wants to throw away all the evidence they witnessed during the trial and go with a theory Muarry has now, then no problem with that. Imagine any person having a load of evidence to show their innocence in such a high profile case and decide to just sit down in court with the guarantee that the prosecution will not prove their case^^. Really, who believes such things. Then the person waits 5 years to give their "proof" which also shows the person still does not get why he was tried and what the allegations are. None of what he says shows the allegations levied against him were incorrect and therefore he was innocent of them. It is like TMez just sitting back in court believing the prosecution will not prove the case, so he does not get his evidence/witnesses together and decide to try this case with little preparation & facts.

If he had proof he would have given it to Valerie and show how there were errors made in his case. He couldn't even do that because there were no errors and he has no proof. He could present theories to explain his idea but when you juxtapose his ravings with all the evidence and expert testimony shown in court it does not jell and you see it falls apart. You can't look at his theory in a bubble, but it must be looked at in light of the evidence that was presented in court.

He keeps saying the same thing over and over, so there is nothing new there even if he increases his presentation by another hour.
 
Last edited:
He spent 2 years in jail... whoopy doo da. Michael lost his life. What bothers me the most about this is that i believe he's doing this so he can practice medicine again and i don't think he has that right.
 
VeraR said:
First of all, how many of you have actually watched Murray's full 3 hour powerpoint presentation? Most importantly, watched with an open mind? I suspect some of the commentators here reached conclusions years ago and are not prepared to reassess them.

I'm coming from the angle of 'what if' ... what if Murray is telling the truth now; what if things on June 25th did not happen the way they were portrayed in court; what if he didn't speak up at the time because he and his lawyers truly believed the prosecution hadn't proved the case against him and there was therefore no need; what if Shafer and his hypothetical scenarios and charts, Walgren (now a judge) and his evidence tampering and Alvarez with his fabricated testimony and media enticements are what caused the jury to reached their guilty verdict? Is that a justice system you are comfortable with?

Someone mentioned 'real facts', but seriously, can any one of us really claim to have any of those? We are presented with what those in power would have us believe. Sorry, that's a bit off-topic - or maybe not.

Reibish, you said "There were only two people in the room when the worst parts happened - and one of them can't speak for himself anymore." Exactly, so why would we not want to hear what the other has to say? Rather late in the day granted, but it IS possible he has genuine reasons for not speaking out before.

You also mentioned 'no one in the medical community' agreeing with Murray. But did you catch the part where Murray shows Shafer set out to destroy him, by saying Propofol should not be used in a home setting, yet he, Shafer, supported another doctor for doing the same in an even less professional situation?

Petrarose, you said "Now if someone wants to point out to me the dodgy goings on then I will take a look at it." Murray, IMO, is doing that in his presentation. Don't take my word for it (I know you haven't!) - go back and listen to him.
Click to expand...

Why waste time doing so? Good for you to give him the benefit of the doubt. He's again blaming the victim since the victim is not here to debunk any of his antics. it's a lot easier that way, not to mention very popular among tabloids.

CM refused to testify under oath to explain his version of the story. worse he went on to tabloids and humiliated his patient. Bragging about holding MJ penis and so on. This is insulting and demeaning, not to mention a serious violation of medical code of conduct. which medical doctor does that? seriously.

the dude has shown no remorse whatsover since MJ death. nothing. zero. and how much is he being paid to blame the victim for the zillionth time.

MJ didn't die from a night of medical malpractice. but it was a series of malpractices by CM over a long period ( 3 months or more) that culminated into his death. in other words MJ was destined to die anyhow under CM care.
 
Murray proved to be a pathological liar, an unethical doctor over and over again. It was shown in court how his version of the events is virtually impossible. Yet some fans are still willing to entertain his version of the events and still hope that there is some big bombshell evidence hiding somewhere that would prove his innocence? LOL @ the thought that Murray has something to prove his innocence but he was not bothered enough to present that evidence in a criminal trial that could (and did) put him in jail.

I wonder why some fans want him so desperately to be innocent? Who do you want to blame instead? Michael? Are you buying Murray's ridiculous theory about MJ self injecting? Or are you one of those conspiracy theorists who wants to believe that someone else sneaked into the bedroom and killed Michael intentionally?
 
^^^ I don't know if that was intended for me, but let me just say, I don't desperately want Murray to be innocent, I don't want to blame anyone (sometimes in life, and death, unfortunate things just happen and no one is to blame) and I don't want to believe anything.

I could turn the question around to you and ask why some fans have always so desperately wanted him to be guilty. Why they have to blame someone - why they seem unable to entertain the idea that a horrible set of circumstances led to an accidental death. It would be easier, I guess, if it hadn't have been Michael.

I simply want to get to the bottom of what went on that day. The court case did not satisfy my questions and if Murray now sees fit to try and shed light on that, then I'm all for hearing him out.

Just because we don't like him because he is implicated in Michael's death, just because he's a rubbish doctor who has often shown himself to be full of tabloid crap, it doesn't follow that the case against him was necessarily cut and dried and squeaky clean. Expert witnesses are put in place to 'prove' all manner of scenarios every day - it doesn't make them expert on the actual situation being dealt with in court.

If Murray is simply trying to wriggle his way out of a lasting blemish on his reputation, then let him keep talking and he'll eventually reveal his true intentions. For those of you who think he already did this long ago, fine - as long as you are not making up your minds blinkered by your hatred of him.

I may be blinkered by a mistrust of our judicial system, and I acknowledge that that might be at the bottom of my willingness to keep listening to Murray. But I'd sooner be open to every theory, and later make up my own mind, than just take as truth, the first one that's forced upon me.
 
VeraR said:
I could turn the question around to you and ask why some fans have always so desperately wanted him to be guilty. Why they have to blame someone - why they seem unable to entertain the idea that a horrible set of circumstances led to an accidental death. It would be easier, I guess, if it hadn't have been Michael.
Click to expand...

It's not about wanting him to be guilty. It's about seeing what was presented at trial. You do not accept it. You think there must be some big hidden evidence somewhere proving Murray's innocence. An evidence that he did not bother to present when it mattered for some mysterious reason. But now he will prove his case in the media. You can hold on to that belief, but as of now that is nothing but wishful thinking.
 
Or are you one of those conspiracy theorists who wants to believe that someone else sneaked into the bedroom and killed Michael intentionally?
Click to expand...

I don´t feel it´s directed to me but if someone should have sneaked into that closed house and killed Michael..then I´m back to Murray left Michael alone,defenseless with drugs to kill him beside him.
If Murray had gone to the bathroom for a few minutes and Michael had stopped breathing when Murray came back then Murray could have called for help, do cpr and Michael would have survived.

I´m sure Murray can do cpr but he didn´t do it because he knew it was too late.
 
respect77, did you actually read any of my post? I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but you are making assumptions about me that are in total contrast to what I just explained.
 
VeraR said:
respect77, did you actually read any of my post? I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but you are making assumptions about me that are in total contrast to what I just explained.
Click to expand...

Yes, I did read you assume everyone else is a liar for the sake of giving Murray (an actual proven liar) the benefit of doubt. I also read you assuming Murray has not presented evidence in his favour in court because he believed "there was no need".

what if he didn't speak up at the time because he and his lawyers truly believed the prosecution hadn't proved the case against him and there was therefore no need; what if Shafer and his hypothetical scenarios and charts, Walgren (now a judge) and his evidence tampering and Alvarez with his fabricated testimony and media enticements are what caused the jury to reached their guilty verdict? Is that a justice system you are comfortable with?
Click to expand...

Sorry, but when you are on the verge of going to jail it does not make sense to hold back evidence in your favour if you have it.
 
^^^ The fact that I used 'what if' so much in my post, should've shown you that I'm assuming nothing - merely keeping my mind open to the various possibilities Murray (not me) has come up with.
 
I am very alarmed, dismayed and disturbed that there are still some MJ fans or anyone else who still believe the demonic babblings of mad Murray… Every time the man opens his dirty mouth lies tumble out in streams and currents for God's sake... Why on earth would any rational person be willing to listen to him lie for an additional 3 hours in his latest fantasy, mystery tour? Weren’t these wads of spit on Michael’s grave enough? :doh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojU-7mCH7oo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07_ARCbatcc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpLMG69Ow_Q
 
I give up. I've obviously lost the ability to make myself understood.
 
Victory22;4027181 said:
I am very alarmed, dismayed and disturbed that there are still some MJ fans or anyone else who still believe the demonic babblings of mad Murray… Every time the man opens his dirty mouth lies tumble out in streams and currents for God's sake... Why on earth would any rational person be willing to listen to him lie for an additional 3 hours in his latest fantasy, mystery tour? Weren’t these wads of spit on Michael’s grave enough? :doh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojU-7mCH7oo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07_ARCbatcc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpLMG69Ow_Q
Click to expand...

^^This is what has been puzzling me too. I see some have Randy/Latoya/Joe's theories with the fall guy angle, but we know that that was pushed because they wanted to show that AEG caused Michael's death and then get some billions for winning. They had to push that some other entity killed Michael, but alas they did not have the evidence to prove it.

Then, that popular Muarry self-injection angle--didn't people listen to the physical evidence about fingerprints, where the equipment was found in reference to Michael's hands and all the other evidence that shows self-injection is a big problem? Did people listen to what the expert explained about what would cause the level of prof to be so high?

Also, we all know Muarry did not intend to kill Micheal, at least there is no evidence of this and that is why he was not tried for murder in the 1st degree. Then, the person ^^ who is saying sometimes in life unfortunate things happen and no one is to be blamed--what?!!!! So muarry did an unfortunate thing that he should not be blamed for? Let's see: he did medical procedures that he was not familiar with and for which he had no professional training; did not know CPR; did not have the cheapest equipment to monitor Michael; gave him a cocktail of drugs without looking at the effects they had on each other and the body system and did so within short-term time intervals; hooked the patient up to a drip and left him unattended; lied that he was gone only seconds while he was making phone calls; claimed he had no phone to use; claimed he did not know the address of the place; did not call 911 right away; did not know a simple chin lift would save his patient because he was not there and did not understand respiration-- and you call all this "sometimes in life unfortunate things happen and no one is to be blamed?" Then, I wonder why people successfully sue doctors.

The thing is it is great to have an open mind, but while the mind is open we shouldn't let rational thought escape through the opening.
 
I blame Murray because it was his responsibility as a doctor to his patient to monitor him, as it should be any good doctor's responsibility. Instead he left the room to make phone calls, those phone calls, which are on the record. No doctor with an ethically sound mind would do that. He didn't do CPR properly, he didn't call 911 right away, he didn't have the proper equipment with him. He did plenty of things wrong. He also recorded Michael, without permission, in a vulnerable drugged up state. What kind of doctor does that? He also went as far to blame Michael for dying.

I don't give Murray any free passes because he has given no reason for me to give him any. Maybe if he had shown some remorse and admitted to his mistakes, I'd be more willing to hear him out, but he hasn't done any of that.
 
VeraR said:
I give up. I've obviously lost the ability to make myself understood.
Click to expand...

I understand your position, I just don't understand how you can still have it after everything that was revealed in the trial. Murray did not purposely kill MJ, just like a drunk driver doesn't purposely kill a fellow driver. It doesn't make the person any less dead or the drunk driver less responsible.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top