Controversial MJ Documentary Leaving Neverland [GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD]

[terrell]

This sounds like fake news! The same fake news that Billboard posted. Today, I saw a revised Billboardz statement saying that Michael’s album sales and streaming have INCREASED. The media has an agenda, just like they did in 1993 and 2005. To turn public against Michael. Don’t fall for the bull$$$$!!!

I agree. Why post if his sale decrease if they did not have the numbers. There is more to this behind the scene.

 

[englishhooligan]

Do we have an article or source for the Chandlers being able to pursue a criminal trial in 1993 after the settlement?

 

[Staffordshire Bullterrier]

I think the only two People who could really Save Michael‘s Public Reputation are Jordan Chandler and Gavin Arvizo. If they would come forward and say that they had to lie back then the media would pick it up immediately. But I really don‘t expect them to do so. Don‘t even know if Jordan is allowed to say that he lied...

Something I sometimes see mentioned by people in comment sections is that the first accuser, so Chandler, had already admitted that it was all a lie. But that's not true. I wonder where that originated from. I do recall a woman a long time ago I believe in a video claiming that Jordan had told her it was all lies. But that's not good enough.

It probably stems from that.

But 2 proven liars are credible who are trying to win millions. Those are just trolls. That is how u know stupid people who just want to be stupid.

Last week when Corey stood up for Michael before he became all PC a day or two later I saw him receiving tons of crap messages on Twitter. That just because he hadn't been abused it didn't mean these men hadn't been either. Wasn't Brett Barnes also called to be in denial by idiots online? I recall that.

For some people MJ just can't win. No matter how many times he gets acquitted, no matter how many investigations, no matter that zero evidence was ever found...he will always be a p in the eye of some total ****ing numbskulls. Don't want anything to do with those people either.

 

[Michael Skywalker]

But...Jordan Chandler did come forward. I mean, I've just heard a youtube post of them admitting to it, without a picture, but it sure sounded like it was real. However, Feldman resently referred to an open letter sent by Chandler. 1:40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqnWgTAh0Js

The thing is, I was in a complete haze of depression after MJ died and couldn't really keep track. But I remember it circulating in media that both Chandler AND Arvizo at different times within I don't know, a month or two? came out and said this was not true and that they were heavily manipulated by their parents who did it for money and that they regretted it. I just remember feeling really darkly about it, thinking "yeah, a bit late don't you think?" However I've never seen anything afterwards that shows Arvizo's admission, wasn't able to search for it until years after though.

Emmanuel Lewis is onto something of the same here: 5:56 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5-EzEQGLQ4

 

[Staffordshire Bullterrier]

On a daily basis now almost we're getting new lies exposed by the two men and it's pretty clear as day how they have fabricated everything. Thing is, we know that and the people on Twitter bringing those facts know it too. However the people that never check for facts and that includes tons of celebrities too... they are still under the impression that LN was very real and credible.

So they will continue to either stay quiet about it or give their uninformed opinion. Only for them to look like total fools once this truly gets out and these ****ers are exposed for the liars they are.

Today on Twitter someone posted a video of Chris Tucker and for a sec I hoped it was brand new, but it wasn't. It was from 2011. Great little short video where he told Lopez how MJ was always so happy and appreciative, made some cool jokes. But.......where is he? Where are all of them? Is it because of being afraid of this whole victim blaming thing that they dare not speak up?

 

[MJInnocent]

On a daily basis now almost we're getting new lies exposed by the two men and it's pretty clear as day how they have fabricated everything. Thing is, we know that and the people on Twitter bringing those facts know it too. However the people that never check for facts and that includes tons of celebrities too... they are still under the impression that LN was very real and credible.

So they will continue to either stay quiet about it or give their uninformed opinion. Only for them to look like total fools once this truly gets out and these ****ers are exposed for the liars they are.

Today on Twitter someone posted a video of Chris Tucker and for a sec I hoped it was brand new, but it wasn't. It was from 2011. Great little short video where he told Lopez how MJ was always so happy and appreciative, made some cool jokes. But.......where is he? Where are all of them? Is it because of being afraid of this whole victim blaming thing that they dare not speak up?

Yeah I think things are moving along better than I had thought,long may it continue.
But we're far from outta hot water which brings me back to needing/wanting a high class rebuttal programme.

Unless that happens,I don't think we can hope for much more.

Tom Mesereru said in the Aphrodite Jones programme that they approached lots of celebrities for support in 05 and most weren't interested......the same people who praised him after his death.

 

[Blondie]

But...Jordan Chandler did come forward. I mean, I've just heard a youtube post of them admitting to it, without a picture, but it sure sounded like it was real. However, Feldman resently referred to an open letter sent by Chandler. 1:40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqnWgTAh0Js

How would Corey or Emmanuel know that though? Lots of people have referenced that but I have no idea where it comes from. Who was this letter sent to? Or where was it published? I have a sad feeling its not real, I'd kind of accepted that it was just a rumour.

 

[MJInnocent]

How would Corey or Emmanuel know that though? Lots of people have referenced that but I have no idea where it comes from. Who was this letter sent to? Or where was it published? I have a sad feeling its not real, I'd kind of accepted that it was just a rumour.

I have always just taken that as a rumour also.I have never seen anything that shows me so and if he had said that,surely that would be massive and easily available......fans wouldn't have let that go,there would be tons on here referencing it.

 

[mjbunny]

But...Jordan Chandler did come forward. I mean, I've just heard a youtube post of them admitting to it, without a picture, but it sure sounded like it was real. However, Feldman resently referred to an open letter sent by Chandler. 1:40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqnWgTAh0Js

The thing is, I was in a complete haze of depression after MJ died and couldn't really keep track. But I remember it circulating in media that both Chandler AND Arvizo at different times within I don't know, a month or two? came out and said this was not true and that they were heavily manipulated by their parents who did it for money and that they regretted it. I just remember feeling really darkly about it, thinking "yeah, a bit late don't you think?" However I've never seen anything afterwards that shows Arvizo's admission, wasn't able to search for it until years after though.

Emmanuel Lewis is onto something of the same here: 5:56 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5-EzEQGLQ4

There was a fake Chandler confession posted on some unknown random blog a few days after MJ passed, and I remember specifically that it didn't get the names right, like it claimed it was Evan who'd been the son, not Jordan. It's weird that I can't find a screenshot. Does anyone have one?? I remember what the page looked like and everything. It was deemed fake at the time by basically everyone on every MJ forum and the link loaded a virus onto your computer. Here's a thread about it from back in 2009, but I don't think that's necessarily the only thread in which it was discussed. It's in the archives section: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...handler-admits-he-lied-about-Michael-Jackson-

I believe it's this that everyone (Emmanuel Lewis, Katherine Jackson, Corey Feldman) like to reference, which always makes me cringe a bit, because I thought it was completely debunked. I WISH it was true, but alas...

 

[L.T.D]

I have to laugh, I just looked at my phones gallery and it's full of FBI documents and court transcripts. What has my life come to ?

 

[MarceloLab]

But 2 proven liars are credible who are trying to win millions. Those are just trolls. That is how u know stupid people who just want to be stupid.

Aaron, who has seemingly nothing to gain by making those claims on TMZ, is somehow less credible than two people who have filed lawsuits against the estate of Jackson. :doh:

 

[Blondie]

Could someone clear up a couple of things for me, I know theres loads of info on here but I'm struggling to find an answer for these two things:

1. In 1993 there was a civil and criminal case going on at once right? A criminal case opened, meaning there was an investigation, but Michael was never criminally charged. Does this mean there was a jury looking at evidence? The reason I'm asking is some people use Chandlers penis description thing as their ultimate bit of proof. I've seen a police report thing that states it matched but was this Sneddon meddling in the whole thing? I've also heard that a jury saw all this and decided there wasn't enough evidence. I'm not entirely sure how this works, so a jury was being shown stuff? Someone said to me they settled out of court which means they never went to court thus a jury couldn't have seen it. I don't think this is right is it?

2. What was the timeline between the Bashir doc and Michael being arrested? Did Janet Arviso call someone and report abuse? On that Aphrodite Jones thing it seemed to imply that Sneddon just launched out with his search and arrest warrant after seeing the documentary alone.

 

[terrell]

Something I sometimes see mentioned by people in comment sections is that the first accuser, so Chandler, had already admitted that it was all a lie. But that's not true. I wonder where that originated from. I do recall a woman a long time ago I believe in a video claiming that Jordan had told her it was all lies. But that's not good enough.

It probably stems from that.



Last week when Corey stood up for Michael before he became all PC a day or two later I saw him receiving tons of crap messages on Twitter. That just because he hadn't been abused it didn't mean these men hadn't been either. Wasn't Brett Barnes also called to be in denial by idiots online? I recall that.

For some people MJ just can't win. No matter how many times he gets acquitted, no matter how many investigations, no matter that zero evidence was ever found...he will always be a p in the eye of some total ****ing numbskulls. Don't want anything to do with those people either.

There are always going to be people who attack no matter who u are. Look at Pink who posted nice pictures of her family. she had haters and people trashing her.

 

[MJInnocent]

Could someone clear up a couple of things for me, I know theres loads of info on here but I'm struggling to find an answer for these two things:

1. In 1993 there was a civil and criminal case going on at once right? A criminal case opened, meaning there was an investigation, but Michael was never criminally charged. Does this mean there was a jury looking at evidence? The reason I'm asking is some people use Chandlers penis description thing as their ultimate bit of proof. I've seen a police report thing that states it matched but was this Sneddon meddling in the whole thing? I've also heard that a jury saw all this and decided there wasn't enough evidence. I'm not entirely sure how this works, so a jury was being shown stuff? Someone said to me they settled out of court which means they never went to court thus a jury couldn't have seen it. I don't think this is right is it?

2. What was the timeline between the Bashir doc and Michael being arrested? Did Janet Arviso call someone and report abuse? On that Aphrodite Jones thing it seemed to imply that Sneddon just launched out with his search and arrest warrant after seeing the documentary alone.

What I understand and someone will correct me if I'm wrong:

There was an investigation which led to a civil case,the criminal case never got going.There was no jury in 93 so they couldn't have seen any evidence as the criminal case never proceeded.....due to lack of evidence.

Sneddon handed Jordy porno mags so his fingerprints were on there but any stories corroborating marks on Michael's genitalia is false! It simply didn't match,if it had,that would have been massive for the prosecution.

I think the Living with Michael Jackson Bashir show was what caused the court case on 05......there was media outrage with the whole holding hands and sharing your bed "revelations"

I think someone then got onto the Arvizo's with promises of big bucks if they run with it.

 

[terrell]

But...Jordan Chandler did come forward. I mean, I've just heard a youtube post of them admitting to it, without a picture, but it sure sounded like it was real. However, Feldman resently referred to an open letter sent by Chandler. 1:40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqnWgTAh0Js

The thing is, I was in a complete haze of depression after MJ died and couldn't really keep track. But I remember it circulating in media that both Chandler AND Arvizo at different times within I don't know, a month or two? came out and said this was not true and that they were heavily manipulated by their parents who did it for money and that they regretted it. I just remember feeling really darkly about it, thinking "yeah, a bit late don't you think?" However I've never seen anything afterwards that shows Arvizo's admission, wasn't able to search for it until years after though.

Emmanuel Lewis is onto something of the same here: 5:56 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5-EzEQGLQ4

Garvin mother was arrested right after the trial. That family was a pitiful with their lies of hot air ballons, being kidnapped and could not see the time even though she got body waxes and a time clock in the middle of Neverland. They did not want to leave Neverland and go back to their roach infected apartment. As for Jordan, I do not see how he can sleep at night even more now that he is back in the news. He will never rest until he clear up this lie.

 

[Blondie]

There were two investigations,civil and criminal.A jury wouldn't have seen any evidence as the criminal case never proceeded.....due to lack of evidence.

So who would have been reviewing the evidence and deciding it wasn't enough? Just wondering why there's a police doc out there that said the description matched. Unless it's fake. I'd have thought Sneddon would have barged through with that, I figured it was him in control of this file in the first place.

So Sneddon planted the fingerprints with Jordy as well? I thought that was just with Gavin? if that was ever proved...

 

[TheChosenOne]

Hi everyone. I have a couple of things I want to say and then I think I am going to head to bed.

Firstly, wouldn’t it be ironic if Michael was the cause of the downfall of Oprah? He was the reason she became a household name around the world. Before that interview she was mainly an American phenomenon. Now, if there is truly a recognition on the part of the media and, more importantly the public that Robson and co are frauds and liars and that Oprah provided them with a platform, I believe it will change the way people see her. And it will change her standing and reputation.

I strongly believe that Oprah resents Michael and his legacy. I also believe that a lot of her opinions on Michael were based on stories from Quincy Jones. It is laughable to say her interview with those young men was not about Michael. It was all about Michael. And having decided who she is siding with in this saga (she lent her credibility to their accusations), she has to be prepared to go down with the ship!!

Secondly, if this ‘scandal’ does not COMPLETELY ruin Michael’s legacy, some people in the media are going to be livid. They told us he wanted to be white, that he was weird, that he was a monstrous child molester. What more do you people need!!?? ARGHH!!!
Lol.

Keep Michaeling everyone. It is going to be rough for a while but we will be okay.

 

[MJInnocent]

So who would have been reviewing the evidence and deciding it wasn't enough? Just wondering why there's a police doc out there that said the description matched. Unless it's fake. I'd have thought Sneddon would have barged through with that, I figured it was him in control of this file in the first place.

So Sneddon planted the fingerprints with Jordy as well? I thought that was just with Gavin? if that was ever proved...

I don't know exactly how the American Justice System works(I'm not from there)
The SBPD? or whoever they have like the Crown Prosecution Service in the UK
Where is this document that says things matched?I'm positive they didn't.

Sorry,my mistake,I meant Gavin,Sneddon corrupted that evidence to bolster his case.

At the end of the day,the settlement from MJ's insurance company did not stop a criminal case,if there had of been solid evidence(matching mark's on privates) then you can be assured Sneddon would have proceeded.

 

[AG5050]

What I understand and someone will correct me if I'm wrong:

There was an investigation which led to a civil case,the criminal case never got going.There was no jury in 93 so they couldn't have seen any evidence as the criminal case never proceeded.....due to lack of evidence.

Sneddon handed Jordy porno mags so his fingerprints were on there but any stories corroborating marks on Michael's genitalia is false! It simply didn't match,if it had,that would have been massive for the prosecution.

I think the Living with Michael Jackson Bashir show was what caused the court case on 05......there was media outrage with the whole holding hands and sharing your bed "revelations"

I think someone then got onto the Arvizo's with promises of big bucks if they run with it.

The events that lead up to the ‘05 trial are so baffling I don’t see how anyone can take the allegations serious.
The Bashir documentary aired and there was public and media outcry due to Michaels admission of sharing his bed/bedroom with children.
Sneddon used this as an opportunity to re-open his investigation into Michael, as you’ve stated obviously promised the Arvisos big bucks if they play along. Because the doc clearly shows Gavin stating it’s innocent and nothing wrong with it they know this could potentially hurt the prosecution they then come up with the allegations that Michael molested Gavin AFTER the documentary aired.
That’s right, we’re supposed to believe that after the public outcry and intense media scrutiny and the investigation being re-opened that Michael then decided to start molesting Gavin when he hadn’t done so before.
It’s too ludicrous for words. I always try and enforce this point to people who have doubts about the ‘05 case. Most I speak to think that the alleged abuse had already happene/was happening before/during the events of the Bashir Doc.

And now on top of that we’re expected to believe that Michael also picked a guy he had abused for years as a child as his lead defence witness in that trial. Of all the people Michael could have chosen to testify he went with the guy he had abused the most and for the longest! Why on earth would he risk putting Wade through a prosecution cross-examination if he had abused him. It’s just farcical beyond belief.

 

[Blondie]

I don't know exactly how the American Justice System works(I'm not from there)
The SBPD? or whoever they have like the Crown Prosecution Service in the UK
Where is this document that says things matched?I'm positive they didn't.

Sorry,my mistake,I meant Gavin,Sneddon corrupted that evidence to bolster his case.

At the end of the day,the settlement from MJ's insurance company did not stop a criminal case,if there had of been solid evidence(matching mark's on privates) then you can be assured Sneddon would have proceeded.

Someone sent it to me on Reddit. Ill have a look for it, I didn't really understand it though. It had Sneddons name on it. I also saw something questioning the validity of that search with the photographs etc and who decided that it 'matched'. Whatever happened can't have held up though, else yeah they could have pressed on with the criminal case otherwise right? Could they have carried on even without Jordy testifying?

 

[Blondie]

Because the doc clearly shows Gavin stating it’s innocent and nothing wrong with it they know this could potentially hurt the prosecution they then come up with the allegations that Michael molested Gavin AFTER the documentary aired.
That’s right, we’re supposed to believe that after the public outcry and intense media scrutiny and the investigation being re-opened that Michael then decided to start molesting Gavin when he hadn’t done so before.

Riiiight yeah, I forgot that part. Lol. So basically its safe to assume that Sneddon approached them and not vice versa. Is there proof of this or is it just a safe bet?

 

[MJInnocent]

And now on top of that we’re expected to believe that Michael also picked a guy he had abused for years as a child as his lead defence witness in that trial. Of all the people Michael could have chosen to testify he went with the guy he had abused the most and for the longest! Why on earth would he risk putting Wade through a prosecution cross-examination if he had abused him. It’s just farcical beyond belief.

I have been arguing online the past few days this point and have been told that MJ's lawyers forced WR to testify in Michael's defence.....you couldn't make it up.

Someone sent it to me on Reddit. Ill have a look for it, I didn't really understand it though. It had Sneddons name on it. I also saw something questioning the validity of that search with the photographs etc and who decided that it 'matched'. Whatever happened can't have held up though, else yeah they could have pressed on with the criminal case otherwise right? Could they have carried on even without Jordy testifying?

I believe it's fake and of course they would put Sneddons name on it,fake money still has the Queens head on it.

Yes they could have proceeded without Chandler but when your alleged victim is not willing to testify then they were up against it(that's exactly the haters point) but still,matching marks would have been a great start.

 

[AG5050]

Riiiight yeah, I forgot that part. Lol. So basically its safe to assume that Sneddon approached them and not vice versa. Is there proof of this or is it just a safe bet?

I don’t know about proof but it’s a safe bet based on the timeline in that they announced they were re-opening their investigation into him and then the allegations were made later down the line.

 

[AG5050]

I have been arguing online the past few days this point and have been told that MJ's lawyers forced WR to testify in Michael's defence.....you couldn't make it up.

For arguments sake say that were true (it’s obviously not). Why would Michael and his lawyers risk that. One slip up or ‘truth’ being told and it would be game over and prison for Michael.
Why force WR to testify when he was an actual victim when they could have just gone with McCauley as lead witness for example.

 

[kai]

double post, sorry

 

[MJInnocent]

For arguments sake say that were true (it’s obviously not). Why would Michael and his lawyers risk that. One slip up or ‘truth’ being told and it would be game over and prison for Michael.
Why force WR to testify when he was an actual victim when they could have just gone with McCauley as lead witness for example.

It's in the doc apparently,I haven't seen it but of course,if it's in Reeds shit show what do you expect?

I replied that they had to come up with something as an excuse to why he has always defended MJ......that's his(preposterous)lie and he's sticking by it.

 

[englishhooligan]

Dan Reed's tweets on twitter just show how out of his depth he is. Love how almost every post of his has responses from MJ fans, and they aren't the "crazy, extreme fans" he depicts in his documentary, they're people who keep providing facts and evidence pro-Michael. Reed just posted from the WikiLeaks thing. Guy has an intense hatred for Michael it is crazy.

 

[DDam]

So I watched the Oprah interview with them. Sorry Wade, I just don't believe that someone in their 20s can still believe that they both (Michael AND Wade) would go to jail if he testified against Michael in 2005. This is what Wade said on Oprah for the reason he didn't come out with this then, when he was on the stand. I don't care how many times MJ supposedly told him when he was a kid that they'd both go to jail if caught. Nobody in their 20s believes they are going to go to jail for this. For being a victim of abuse. Even if he supposedly thought this was a 'loving relationship', you telling me you don't know this is abuse when you're in your 20s? A 35+ year old man (duno how old he was exactly) doing these things to a 7-14 yr old. Nope, in your 20s you know. This is during a child molestation trial. Where a child is accusing the same person. Helloooo.
If he couldn't bring himself to testify against him, he didn't have to testify in his defence either, he didn't have to be involved. James didn't.

Oprah asked Wade if he had any thought for Gavin at the time and he said he didn't have any awareness of that, didn't think of anyone else, his mind didn't even go there or something...

He was also asked if he thought he deserved money from the estate. He said that it wasn't a thought of his. Uhm is that why in the court docs it lists all these career opportunities you've supposedly lost out on due to this breakdown supposedly due to coming to terms with the abuse, and the money you've therefore lost out on.

 

[CaptainEoLove85]

Meant to share this earlier, but Craig Baxter did an analysis of Wade's body language during the Q&A they did at Sundance. It would be great if he analyzed them in LN too:

Following on from my previous analysis on Wade Robson ( https://www.facebook.com/cjbaxx/pho...51981207&notif_t=page_post_reaction&ref=notif ) I’ve watched this Q and A and I have my real doubts of the validly of their statements.

When Wade is passed the microphone, he repeatedly sends out a strong signal of discomfort with the prolonged temple rub. These types of dissipating behaviours are often prevalent when we feel the need to displace our discomfort via a comforting ‘touch’ display. I must stress that this action isn’t an ironclad indicator of deceit (research from Vrij/Ekman tells us that observing perceived deceit via body language is fraught with dangers and pitfalls) – think of this action as a gesture of discomfort.

Wade gives us an insight into mindset when he reveals that … “ that was the goal, deciding to TRY the case route, was just looking for a platform to be able to tell the truth” – ask yourself this, if you really had been abused for 6 years, would you just ‘try’ the case route to seek justice? Or would you tirelessly fight tooth and nail to put your accuser behind bars? Again, there seems to be a massive disparity/distance between what he’s alleged happened to him and the words/behaviour he reveals. Remember “ I’ll try “ = ' I’ll give it a go, but I’m not really sure of the outcome.' < Could you imagine being this blasé about being ‘abused’ by someone for 6 years? Absolutely not.

With this in mind, Wade’s repeated behaviour in this segment is the temple rub (as seen in the TMZ video) – again this is a gesture of doubt and discomfort. Not the actions of a man with confidence or conviction in his words.

I’ve been a big activist for Michael for many years and I’m horrified and deeply upset to see his name wrongfully dragged through the mud once again. Michael was a brilliant man and a tireless humanitarian for children’s rights – these types of salacious ‘documentaries’ are a disgrace and I genuinely feel for Michael’s family while these ‘allegations’ are put forward via mass media.

Let me reiterate this; James, Wade – I do not believe Michael Jackson abused you.

Kind regards,
CJB
Understanding Body Language. Liars, Cheats and Happy Feet [!]
Author of Behind The Mask: What Michael Jackson’s Body Language Told The World - https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B009LAMGDY

Credit: TheOtherScottM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVQUCWJlJ_w

https://www.facebook.com/cjbaxx/photos/a.183266598371940/2400295536669024/?type=3&theater

 

[RedMaryFlint]

So who would have been reviewing the evidence and deciding it wasn't enough? Just wondering why there's a police doc out there that said the description matched. Unless it's fake. I'd have thought Sneddon would have barged through with that, I figured it was him in control of this file in the first place.

Under the American legal system, you can be criminally charged in either of two ways: you can be indicted by a grand jury, or the prosecutor can directly file charges.

in 1993, a grand jury was convened to review the evidence. Jordan Chandler declined to testify, so the grand jury did not indict. There is nothing to return an indictment over, because it would all be second-hand evidence without an alleged victim to back it up. Likewise, the prosecutor could not directly file charges, as again, no victim.

As for Chandler’s supposed description, that particular piece of evidence has never been vetted, because he never appeared in court. There is only Sneddon’s claim that it matched, and frankly, if he said the sun rose in the east, I’d double check.