Controversial MJ Documentary Leaving Neverland [GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD]

@staywild23

I don't understand why this was a question either, all the other questions were related to his career or sport and then ad random pops up MJ. Maybe he is somewhat of an MJ fan and the interviewer knew about this, I don't know...
My quoted sentence is the exact translation of the question that was asked. Wouldn't it be terrible if Michael Jackson came to be known as the great child molester and not as a singer/dancer :eek::ROFLMAO:

It is all good that he still gets played and that people kind of accept it despite what is being said about him. But these things shouldn't be said in the first place. I'd rather see MJ's name cleared than ever hearing him on the radio again to be fair. This injustice is what's bugging me not the fact that his legacy may or may not get damaged.

Yeah I also saw Depp's name frequently recently but I haven't been following this case either. I'm not interested in these things except when it is about MJ lol.
 
It is all good that he still gets played and that people kind of accept it despite what is being said about him. But these things shouldn't be said in the first place. I'd rather see MJ's name cleared than ever hearing him on the radio again to be fair. This injustice is what's bugging me not the fact that his legacy may or may not get damaged.

Yeah I also saw Depp's name frequently recently but I haven't been following this case either. I'm not interested in these things except when it is about MJ lol.

I have to say, I completely agree with you. While I despise the idea of him not being forever remembered for his artistic legacy, I hate even more the idea that people believe such horrifying things about him especially when he was genuinely such a good person who backed up all of his messages with action, not just lip service. That actually emotionally wrecks me. I can't think of anyone less deserving of this media abuse than him. In addition to his name being totally cleared, I also feel he really needs wide recognition as a humanitarian. I applaud all of the beautiful efforts of the fans who have made documentaries on YouTube and whatnot, but we need a really high quality doc on a major streaming service to cover all of this stuff (his innocence, humanitarianism, and all). He deserves that.

And yes, I get it. MJ has been my primary focus, in general, the last few months and I don't see that changing anytime soon haha.
 
MJ should not be boy-cut becuase he is innocent. easy as that.

He was totally vindicated - found not guilty in a huge trial that went thru everything, the most intense raid, they went thru all the books, magazines found, there was absolutely no proof, nothing that even remotely proved MJ to have done anything wrong.

SO to even suggest to ban or boy-cut MJ is stupid and ridiculous - and luckily, I have seen absolutely noone do so in Denmark.

There was a few radio stations boycutting just when the trash moc was released, but they started playing MJ's music quite fast again.
 
Saw this interview a couple of days ago and thought it was really interesting! Apparently Jaime Kennedy has a YouTube channel (who knew?) and interviewed Dan Karaty who was a friend of Wade Robson's and spent time with Wade and Michael together in the early 2000s. Dan straight up says that in knowing Wade and in meeting Michael, he thinks LN is bullshit.

It was honestly a very interesting interview in which both men speak pretty respectfully about MJ throughout. I think Jaime maybe makes one joke, but it was pretty tame from what I recall. I overall really enjoyed listening to this, so thought it might be interesting to others too!

 
MJ should not be boy-cut becuase he is innocent. easy as that.

He was totally vindicated - found not guilty in a huge trial that went thru everything, the most intense raid, they went thru all the books, magazines found, there was absolutely no proof, nothing that even remotely proved MJ to have done anything wrong.

SO to even suggest to ban or boy-cut MJ is stupid and ridiculous - and luckily, I have seen absolutely noone do so in Denmark.

There was a few radio stations boycutting just when the trash moc was released, but they started playing MJ's music quite fast again.
If they dare boycotting Michael, you should boycott them back. I boycotted radio stations from Quebec for that until later they put his music back in.
 
I think Dan somewhat stopped saying he doesn’t believe Wade. He was a regular face on talent shows in Belgium, I guess he didn’t want to lose his tv work…

unless this is a recent interview
 
Tomorrow in headlines. Michael not only had sex with children, according to our sources and of a once big MJ fan he also cut up children during it. We contacted the Estate for their view on the matter but they continue to defend this vile, evil , devilish person. Both the fans and the Estate present themselves yet again as deluded lunatics without shame.

Sorry if nobody finds this funny because it is ‘t but I am cynical like that 😂
Sorry hess, I know it is a mere typo 🤓
 
I think Dan somewhat stopped saying he doesn’t believe Wade. He was a regular face on talent shows in Belgium, I guess he didn’t want to lose his tv work…

unless this is a recent interview
I’m not sure when this interview was filmed, but it was published 2 days ago on YouTube! So it’s presumably pretty recent, which is part of what I found so interesting about it! I don’t know a lot about the response to LN since I had never heard of it until becoming a fan, but if this is recent I think it speaks to maybe there being more comfort for people wanting to speak out against it. Interesting nonetheless!
 
When Robsons and Safechucks case appeal become denied again by the judge and when it comes to a point where they cannot make any appeals again, is that where they must start to pay the deposition and attorney costs to the Estate? If they cannot pay any dime to them, are they forced to apply for like personal bankruptcy? How does it work in US if citizens are in personal debts?
 

What You Should Know About the New Michael Jackson Documentary​


When Michael Jackson died in 2009, Wade Robson—the former choreographer whose allegations of abuse are at the center of a controversial new documentary, Leaving Neverland—wrote in tribute to his friend:

Michael Jackson changed the world and, more personally, my life forever. He is the reason I dance, the reason I make music, and one of the main reasons I believe in the pure goodness of humankind. He has been a close friend of mine for 20 years. His music, his movement, his personal words of inspiration and encouragement and his unconditional love will live inside of me forever. I will miss him immeasurably, but I know that he is now at peace and enchanting the heavens with a melody and a moonwalk.

Robson was twenty-seven years old at the time. Four years earlier, he testified at Jackson’s 2005 trial (as an adult) that nothing sexual ever happened between them. Prior to the trial Robson hadn’t seen Jackson for years and was under no obligation to be a witness for the defense. He faced a withering cross-examination, understanding the penalty of perjury for lying under oath. But Robson adamantly, confidently, and credibly asserted that nothing sexual ever happened.

What changed between then and now? A few things:

  • In 2011, Robson approached John Branca, co-executor of the Michael Jackson Estate, about directing the new Michael Jackson/Cirque du Soleil production, ONE. Robson admitted he wanted the job “badly,” but the Estate ultimately chose someone else for the position.

  • In 2012, Robson had a nervous breakdown, triggered, he said, by an obsessive quest for success. His career, in his own words, began to “crumble.”
  • That same year, with Robson’s career, finances, and marriage in peril, he began shopping a book that claimed he was sexually abused by Michael Jackson. No publisher picked it up.
  • In 2013, Robson filed a civil lawsuit and creditor’s claim, which some sources claimed could be worth up to $1.6 billion dollars. While the exact amount would not have been clear until after a trial, an enormous amount of money was at stake. Soon after, James Safechuck reached out to Robson's attorneys and filed his own lawsuit and creditor's claim. Safechuck claimed that he only realized he was abused after seeing Robson on TV. A probate court dismissed his claim in 2017.
  • In 2019, the Sundance Film Festival premiered a documentary based entirely on Robson and Safechuck's allegations. While the documentary is obviously emotionally disturbing given the content, it presents no new evidence or witnesses. The film's director, Dan Reed, acknowledged not wanting to interview other key figures because it might complicate or compromise the story he wanted to tell. Both Robson and Safechuck's lawsuits remain under appeal.
It is tempting for the media to tie Jackson into a larger cultural narrative about sexual misconduct. R. Kelly was rightfully taken down by a documentary, and many other high-profile figures have been exposed in recent years, so surely, the logic goes, Michael Jackson must be guilty as well. Yet that is a dangerous leap—particularly with America's history of unjustly targeting and convicting black men—that fair-minded people would be wise to consider more carefully before condemning the artist. It is no coincidence that one of Jackson’s favorite books (and movies) was To Kill a Mockingbird, a story about a black man—Tom Robinson—destroyed by false allegations.

The media’s largely uncritical, de-contextualized takes out of Sundance seem to have forgotten: no allegations have been more publicly scrutinized than those against Michael Jackson. They elicited a two-year feeding frenzy in the mid-90s and then again in the mid-2000s, when Jackson faced an exhaustive criminal trial. His homes were ransacked in two unannounced raids by law enforcement. Nothing incriminating was found. Jackson was acquitted of all charges in 2005 by a conservative Santa Maria jury. The FBI, likewise, conducted a thorough investigation. Its 300-page file on the pop star, released under the Freedom of Information Act, found no evidence of wrongdoing.

Meanwhile, dozens of individuals who spent time with Jackson as kids continue to assert nothing sexual ever happened. This includes hundreds of sick and terminally ill children such as Bela Farkas (for whom Jackson paid for a life-saving liver transplant) and Ryan White (whom Jackson befriended and supported in his final years battling AIDS); it includes lesser-known figures like Brett Barnes and Frank Cascio; it includes celebrities like Macaulay Culkin, Sean Lennon, Emmanuel Lewis, Alfonso Ribeiro, and Corey Feldman; it includes Jackson’s nieces and nephews; and it includes his own three children.

The allegations surrounding Jackson largely faded over the past decade for a reason: unlike the Bill Cosby or R. Kelly cases, the more people looked into the Jackson allegations, the more the evidence vindicated him. The prosecution’s case in 2005 was so problematic Rolling Stone‘s Matt Taibbi described it like this:

Ostensibly a story about bringing a child molester to justice, the Michael Jackson trial would instead be a kind of homecoming parade of insipid American types: grifters, suckers and no-talent schemers, mired in either outright unemployment… or the bogus non-careers of the information age, looking to cash in any way they can. The MC of the proceedings was District Attorney Tom Sneddon, whose metaphorical role in this American reality show was to represent the mean gray heart of the Nixonian Silent Majority – the bitter mediocrity itching to stick it to anyone who’d ever taken a vacation to Paris. The first month or so of the trial featured perhaps the most compromised collection of prosecution witnesses ever assembled in an American criminal case – almost to a man a group of convicted liars, paid gossip hawkers or worse…
In the next six weeks, virtually every piece of his case imploded in open court, and the chief drama of the trial quickly turned into a race to see if the DA could manage to put all of his witnesses on the stand without getting any of them removed from the courthouse in manacles.

What’s changed since then?

In Robson’s case, decades after the alleged incidents took place, he was barbecuing with Michael Jackson and his children. He was asking for tickets to the artist’s memorial. He was participating in tributes. “I still have my mobile phone with his number in it,” Robson wrote in 2009, “I just can’t bear the thought of deleting his messages.”

Then, suddenly, after twenty years, his story changed and with his new claims came a massive lawsuit.

As an eccentric, wealthy, African American man, Michael Jackson has always been a target for litigation. During the 1980s and 1990s, dozens of women falsely claimed he was the father of their children. He faced multiple lawsuits falsely claiming he plagiarized various songs. As recently as 2010, a woman named Billie Jean filed a frivolous $600 million paternity lawsuit against Jackson’s Estate.

As someone who has done an enormous amount of research on the artist, interviewed many people who were close to him, and been granted access to a lot of private information, my assessment is that the evidence simply does not point to Michael Jackson's guilt. In contrast to Robson and Safechuck’s revised accounts, there is a remarkable consistency to the way people who knew the artist speak of him—whether friends, family members, collaborators, fellow artists, recording engineers, attorneys, business associates, security guards, former spouses, his own children—people who knew him in every capacity imaginable. Michael, they say, was gentle, brilliant, sensitive, sometimes naive, sometimes childish, sometimes oblivious to perceptions. But none believe he was a child molester.

Update:

I want to make clear that I am deeply sympathetic to victims of sexual abuse. I also believe deeply in the principle of due process, particularly, given America's history, for people of color. This article was intended to offer some context regarding the allegations against Michael Jackson. However, since I was not there, I ultimately cannot speak to Wade Robson and James Safechuck's experiences. It is my sincere hope for all involved that the truth will prevail and all who have been hurt will find healing.

Update 2: This article has been updated to clarify that while Robson and Safechuck share the same law firm, their claims against the Michael Jackson Estate were filed separately. It also clarifies that the the exact monetary compensation of their lawsuits/creditor's claims would not be known until after a civil trial.
 
Slightly off-topic but I am curious why The Estate didn't collect anything from Adrian McManus (and others?) that still owe MJ loads of money?
Or at least make the general public aware that she owes him 1.6 million.. and thus has motive to keep lying?
Watch her stumble at 26:04 LOL

 
Slightly off-topic but I am curious why The Estate didn't collect anything from Adrian McManus (and others?) that still owe MJ loads of money?
Or at least make the general public aware that she owes him 1.6 million.. and thus has motive to keep lying?
Watch her stumble at 26:04 LOL

This is one of those videos I watched when I was first becoming a fan. Like within the first 2 months maybe. I loved Michael so much already, but I would watch stuff like this and it was really hard to not have it heavily influence me. But instinctively it did not make sense to me. Like it didn't feel real in my core. I would watch stuff like this and it was so incongruent with the man I would see in interviews. It just felt impossible to be the same person. But I have spent years studying sexual victimization and I know those incongruences are possible. It just... man. It messed me up so much. I was so worried I was being manipulated by the media, but also worried I was being manipulated by MJ. I would spend 2 hours watching interviews like this and reading comments of people all thinking he was horrible and a monster. Then I would spend another 2 hours watching videos about him as a humanitarian, or interview clips, or performance videos, and little moments of him being sweet and kind and adorable, and the mind f*** of it all was just awful.

I am so glad I am beyond that point now. It was hyper emotional and so confusing. I am so glad that I've done enough research, read enough, and explored enough to feel confident in Michael and know that people like Adrian McManus have zero credibility. I have been grateful to have not had anyone in my family, or any friends of mine, aggressively question Michael's innocence since I became a fan a little over a year ago. Some have asked about it, but always respectfully. But last week I spoke on the phone with a long time friend I hadn't chatted with in a couple of years and I mentioned being a huge MJ fan now and he said "that man is a monster" and made some really derogatory comments. I was so taken aback and distressed by this comment, I actually said "How can you think so little of me that you think I would not have done my research?" and he made some comment about separating the art from the artist. And I named a few people I know for certain he does that with, but then followed up by saying, "I don't actually care if you do that, but in Michael's case you don't have to do that, and that is my entire point." Then I asked how much he actually looked into learning about Michael and he said very little. So I asked him how, given my history as a sexual violence survivor (which he knows about) AND my doctoral research on sexual violence AND my relatively recent fandom of Michael Jackson, which proves I did not go into this blinded by already established fan love, would he assume he knows more about Michael Jackson's situation than I do? And further, why would he respect me so little to assume that I would not have more ethical standards given everything he knows about me?

Whether he acquiesced because my point was effectively made, or simply because he wanted me to move on, he said I was right and we did eventually move on. This was a more heightened version of my approach to talking to anyone about Michael who questions him. Because I now really do believe in Michael's innocence so much, I am comfortable using my own credibility as part of my argument when I defend him.

Anyway, I didn't expect to go on that rant, but seeing this video again made me feel something 🤷‍♀️
 
This is one of those videos I watched when I was first becoming a fan. Like within the first 2 months maybe. I loved Michael so much already, but I would watch stuff like this and it was really hard to not have it heavily influence me. But instinctively it did not make sense to me. Like it didn't feel real in my core. I would watch stuff like this and it was so incongruent with the man I would see in interviews. It just felt impossible to be the same person. But I have spent years studying sexual victimization and I know those incongruences are possible. It just... man. It messed me up so much. I was so worried I was being manipulated by the media, but also worried I was being manipulated by MJ. I would spend 2 hours watching interviews like this and reading comments of people all thinking he was horrible and a monster. Then I would spend another 2 hours watching videos about him as a humanitarian, or interview clips, or performance videos, and little moments of him being sweet and kind and adorable, and the mind f*** of it all was just awful.

I am so glad I am beyond that point now. It was hyper emotional and so confusing. I am so glad that I've done enough research, read enough, and explored enough to feel confident in Michael and know that people like Adrian McManus have zero credibility. I have been grateful to have not had anyone in my family, or any friends of mine, aggressively question Michael's innocence since I became a fan a little over a year ago. Some have asked about it, but always respectfully. But last week I spoke on the phone with a long time friend I hadn't chatted with in a couple of years and I mentioned being a huge MJ fan now and he said "that man is a monster" and made some really derogatory comments. I was so taken aback and distressed by this comment, I actually said "How can you think so little of me that you think I would not have done my research?" and he made some comment about separating the art from the artist. And I named a few people I know for certain he does that with, but then followed up by saying, "I don't actually care if you do that, but in Michael's case you don't have to do that, and that is my entire point." Then I asked how much he actually looked into learning about Michael and he said very little. So I asked him how, given my history as a sexual violence survivor (which he knows about) AND my doctoral research on sexual violence AND my relatively recent fandom of Michael Jackson, which proves I did not go into this blinded by already established fan love, would he assume he knows more about Michael Jackson's situation than I do? And further, why would he respect me so little to assume that I would not have more ethical standards given everything he knows about me?

Whether he acquiesced because my point was effectively made, or simply because he wanted me to move on, he said I was right and we did eventually move on. This was a more heightened version of my approach to talking to anyone about Michael who questions him. Because I now really do believe in Michael's innocence so much, I am comfortable using my own credibility as part of my argument when I defend him.

Anyway, I didn't expect to go on that rant, but seeing this video again made me feel something 🤷‍♀️
I've thankfully never spent time on guilter videos and other resources, then again I came into this fandom exactly because I was convinced of Michael's innocence. I've already talked about this at length before, but for years, me being a doubter (though not a guilter) prevented me from becoming a fan.

Honestly, for me, realizing he had been acquitted was already enough to convince me (in 2005, the media loved to portay him as guilty even after acquittal, so I completely missed the verdict at the time. Guess it's from all times, huh...), though the fact that people were smearing a dead man who can't defend himself contributed. Plus, actually guilty people have gotten away with it, and still do. Sometime last year there was another such instance; might divulge on that more someday when it's appropriate, or when people want to hear it. But I was angry for days! I still am!!!!!!!! Meanwhile Michael, the innocent man.... Aaaaaargh!!!!! It's just not fair!!!!!

Ugh. I digressed but I am so pissed again. Same with all these supposedly "anti-pedo" people who eat up everything that actual pedo scumbag Gutierrez said in his poisonous book from hell. Brb, going to punch shit. And hard.

...I'm still digressing. But I think you get my point. I absolutely detest pedophilia and child sexual abuse, but what I detest equally is innocent human beings being falsely accused. It haunts you for the rest of your life and people will think you're guilty. It's, in my opinion, just as important to talk about that as it is to listen to (actual, real) victims.

I've said it before: I believe victims, but not every accuser is a victim, and too many people forget that.

All that being said, a lot of people I know seem to simply not talk about the allegations. Whenever I tell people I like Michael Jackson, they never really bring them up. Some of my family members seem to be doubters, would love to send them down the innocence rabbit hole lol. That is my plan.
 
All that being said, a lot of people I know seem to simply not talk about the allegations. Whenever I tell people I like Michael Jackson, they never really bring them up. Some of my family members seem to be doubters, would love to send them down the innocence rabbit hole lol. That is my plan.

I want to reply to more of this, because it deserves that, and I may soon, but I wanted to add this before I forget. I think that the vast majority of people don't actually think about this very much when it comes to Michael, and I think it's because he passed away. Obviously he was acquitted but as you said the media sort of ignored what that meant at the time. But beyond that, his death sort of overshadowed all of it. I don't think most people feel great ethical debates about listening to an artist who is gone, based on allegations from when they were alive. I could be wrong about that, but for the most part I think that's true. I'm talking about the general public, when I say this. Not fans.

I can only base this off of how I felt about Michael Jackson before becoming a fan. And honestly, I just didn't think about him either way. I was basically indifferent to him, aside from knowing he was insanely talented, assuming he was weird, and wondering if he was guilty (which I didn't even wonder about because I literally didn't think about him and forgot the allegations were even a thing). But when his videos started getting recommended to me I didn't feel any sense of confusion or guilt about watching them at all. I didn't even remember that I "should." I was just entranced beyond words. It was only because I became so rapidly (and rabidly, ha!) enamored with him that I started to become so confused about this whole situation, because he was nothing at all like I assumed he would be. A lot of memories of what I had heard about him growing up and during the 2000s were resurfacing and none of them matched what I was seeing. So that's a big part of this too. My point is, if I had watched a few of his videos and then became a casual fan -- added a few songs to my playlists before cycling through them and forgetting about them a few months later -- I probably wouldn't have even cared about his innocence or guilt. And I don't say that to be cavalier about it. I just mean the reality is that 1) I had never heard of LN prior to becoming a fan and so if I remained casual about him probably would have continued to not hear about it and 2) he has passed away, so the relevance of the whole thing wouldn't be there for someone I was only going to casually dabble in. I don't check out the personal lives of 99% of artists I listen to so why would I in this case? It is only because I became so profoundly attached to Michael almost overnight that I was so affected by all of this stuff and why it was so important to me to understand it all.

You know how he always said his music came from his heart? If I thought he had an ugly heart I couldn't enjoy his music. But if I didn't think either way about his heart I don't think it would bother me. I'm incapable of indifference when it comes to Michael. Sometimes I wonder if a lot of the people who are so passionately anti-michael are people who were once very passionately for him.

I have forgotten what my original point in any of this was lol. I'm sorry
 
Slightly off-topic but I am curious why The Estate didn't collect anything from Adrian McManus (and others?) that still owe MJ loads of money?
Or at least make the general public aware that she owes him 1.6 million.. and thus has motive to keep lying?
Watch her stumble at 26:04 LOL

So I am still curious if anyone can answer this: why doesn't The Estate go after her money or at least make the public known that she owes MJ so muchh money (and so has a motive to keep lying and backing up other people's lies)..?
 
Sometimes I wonder if a lot of the people who are so passionately anti-michael are people who were once very passionately for him.

I have forgotten what my original point in any of this was lol. I'm sorry

Sometimes I wonder if it's all the same guy with multiple accounts pestering us. And maybe he even has an account on here..
 
so easy to realize for everyone they are liars and Reed knows it

 
Yesterday there was a kid shadowing at my school and I told him I like MJ and he said to me that he's a p*do and also asked me the question "Have you see the documentary?" No Chase I have not because it's full of lies and you are very ugly and hope you never come to my school and also how in the world can you believe that "documentary"???? It's just 2 hours full of bs

Edit: his name is Chase. I hate him
 
Yesterday there was a kid shadowing at my school and I told him I like MJ and he said to me that he's a p*do and also asked me the question "Have you see the documentary?" No Chase I have not because it's full of lies and you are very ugly and hope you never come to my school and also how in the world can you believe that "documentary"???? It's just 2 hours full of bs

Edit: his name is Chase. I hate him

Well all #MJHatersRIdiots. Once an idiot always an idiot and that’s what they are for life.
 
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