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Dirty Diana on HIStory?

Anyway I think Ben, Got to be there and rocking robin should have made the tracklist.

The greatest hits disc from book 2 would have been pretty hard to fill. Human Nature, Smooth Criminal, Dirty Diana, PYT, Say Say Say would have been there but what’s next…
 
Spaceship said:
They were obviously just including his adult hits. MJ before and after Off the Wall are almost like two different artists.
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Yes unfortunately (imo)

To have a comprehensive solo greatest hits for MJ, it would need to be a triple disc. There are about 7 Motown singles already that were top 10 in either the UK or USA
 
filmandmusic said:
It reached nr 2 in France and the UK and nr 3 in Germany. These 3 countries make up the majority of single sales in Europe.
If it wasn’t for the freak once in a lifetime hit “i will always love you” by Whitney Houston it would have been nr 1 in Europe. It stalled at nr 2 for 4 weeks in the UK I seem to remember. It got fairly close to a million physical sales in the UK alone.
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HTW - UK Top 10 for 7 weeks; for 5 of those weeks it was at No.2.
 
Spaceship said:
Definitely not as big as "Dirty Diana", so no reason for it to make the cut over that. Charted higher than "Smooth Criminal" on the Hot 100, but they sold about the same number of copies as singles worldwide. "Remember the Time" only came out 3 years before History, though. "Smooth Criminal" was 8 years old at the time and had more classic status.
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Bad already had four songs included on History disc 1. It didn't need any more.

And I would argue that Heal The World and especially Remember The Time are more well known than Dirty Diana.
 
Nite Line said:
Bad already had four songs included on History disc 1. It didn't need any more.

And I would argue that Heal The World and especially Remember The Time are more well known than Dirty Diana.
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Based on what I hear on the radio here both those songs get more airplay than dirty diana so it is possible you are right.
 
Nite Line said:
Bad already had four songs included on History disc 1. It didn't need any more.
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It had five number ones, so you at least needed five songs from it.
Nite Line said:
And I would argue that Heal The World and especially Remember The Time are more well known than Dirty Diana.
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"Remember the Time" might be close, but "Heal the World" flopped in the United States. "Dirty Diana" is the only one of these songs to hit number one here.
 
Spaceship said:
"Remember the Time" might be close, but "Heal the World" flopped in the United States. "Dirty Diana" is the only one of these songs to hit number one here.
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Smooth Criminal didn't hit number 1 in the USA, but it is miles more popular now than Dirty Diana is. Number 1 hit isn't an indicative of a song's long term popularity.

And USA isn't the only country in the world.
 
Nite Line said:
Smooth Criminal didn't hit number 1 in the USA, but it is miles more popular now than Dirty Diana is.
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A song that hits number one is generally more popular than one that doesn't. "Heal the World" isn't one of the exceptions when it literally flopped in a country as big as the United States. None of the other songs I mentioned were flops. Even "Another Part of Me" would have made more sense to include than "Heal the World".
 
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Nite Line said:
Smooth Criminal didn't hit number 1 in the USA, but it is miles more popular now than Dirty Diana is. Number 1 hit isn't an indicative of a song's long term popularity.

And USA isn't the only country in the world.
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Agreed. I'm also confused by this 'Greatest Hits' thing. Obviously, No.1 is the ultimate goal. But Top 3 or even Top 5 definitely qualifies as a hit. Maybe it's different now but back in the day, a hit record did not have to top the chart.
 
zinniabooklover said:
Agreed. I'm also confused by this 'Greatest Hits' thing. Obviously, No.1 is the ultimate goal. But Top 3 or even Top 5 definitely qualifies as a hit. Maybe it's different now but back in the day, a hit record did not have to top the chart.
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Most bands have a full disc of greatest hits while having just a handful of top 10 songs. There are no rules, it makes no sense. Depends on who you ask. I’d include every song reaches the top 40.
 
Spaceship said:
You weren't talking about "Smooth Criminal", though. A song that hits number one is generally more popular than one doesn't.

"Heal the World" isn't one of the exceptions when it literally flopped in a country as big as the United States. Didn't need to be here at all; even "Will You Be There" would have made more sense.
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A song that hits number one is obviously more popular than the song that doesn't hit number 1 in the short run. But that isn't an indictive of a song's long term popularity. Currently in the top 10 on spotify, you will see songs like PYT, They Don't Care About Us, Thriller, Chicago & Smooth Criminal. Were these songs number 1 hits in the USA? No, but they are more popular in 2023 than most of Michael's number 1 hits.

Michael was an international artist. I don't see why you are looking at it from your USA rose tinted glasses. And besides, Heal The World was a personal favourite of Michael. That is probably a big reason why it was included, other than it being a big hit internationally.
 
zinniabooklover said:
Agreed. I'm also confused by this 'Greatest Hits' thing. Obviously, No.1 is the ultimate goal. But Top 3 or even Top 5 definitely qualifies as a hit. Maybe it's different now but back in the day, a hit record did not have to top the chart.
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Agreed.

Personally speaking, I consider any song that hits top 10 as part of a greatest hits. But for some people that might a flop.
 
filmandmusic said:
Most bands have a full disc of greatest hits while having just a handful of top 10 songs. There are no rules, it makes no sense. Depends on who you ask. I’d include every song reaches the top 40.
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oh, I agree with this. I don't think a Greatest Hits compilation should only include Top 10 stuff. I was just making the point that I don't understand the emphasis on whether something did or did not get to No.1 bc that is not the only definition of a hit record. I don't know if I'd go along with Top 40 but I def think Top 20 counts as a hit. And you are right, there are no rules. A song can go Top 20 but if it got loads of airplay that also influences decisions about inclusion on compliation albums. Not saying airplay applies to HTW, just a general observation.
 
Nite Line said:
A song that hits number one is obviously more popular than the song that doesn't hit number 1 in the short run. But that isn't an indictive of a song's long term popularity. Currently in the top 10 on spotify, you will see songs like PYT, They Don't Care About Us, Thriller, Chicago & Smooth Criminal. Were these songs number 1 hits in the USA? No, but they are more popular in 2023 than most of Michael's number 1 hits.
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I think this is the point I was just trying to make. Back in the day it was as much about airplay. Now it's streaming. Same thing, though. It goes beyond just the initial chart run, as important as that is.

Nite Line said:
Michael was an international artist. I don't see why you are looking at it from your USA rose tinted glasses. And besides, Heal The World was a personal favourite of Michael. That is probably a big reason why it was included, other than it being a big hit internationally.
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(y)
 
Nite Line said:
A song that hits number one is obviously more popular than the song that doesn't hit number 1 in the short run. But that isn't an indictive of a song's long term popularity.
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In most cases, it is. You can't even ascertain a song's "long-term popularity" when it came out only 3 years ago. All the more reason why "Heal the World" shouldn't have been on History as it was too recent.
Nite Line said:
Currently in the top 10 on spotify, you will see songs like PYT, They Don't Care About Us, Thriller, Chicago & Smooth Criminal.
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But not "Heal the World" lol.

And the top 10 you're looking at isn't even the actual top 10 for MJ's songs:

Michael Jackson - Spotify Top Songs

A website that collects and analyzes music data from around the world. All of the charts, sales and streams, constantly updated.
kworb.net

"Chicago" isn't in the top 10. "Don't Matter to Me" is just a Drake song that samples MJ and thus shouldn't be counted. So really 60% of the top 10 are number ones. "Love Never Felt So Good" has recency bias; it's not more popular than "Bad", a number one, just because it has a few more million streams. Spotify isn't even the end-all, be-all and it didn't exist when History came out in 1995. How popular the songs are in 2023 is irrelevant.

Nite Line said:
Michael was an international artist. I don't see why you are looking at it from your USA rose tinted glasses.
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US is the biggest country in the world.
 
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Spaceship said:
Definitely not as big as "Dirty Diana", so no reason for it to make the cut over that. Charted higher than "Smooth Criminal" on the Hot 100, but they sold about the same number of copies as singles worldwide. "Remember the Time" only came out 3 years before History, though. "Smooth Criminal" was 8 years old at the time and had more classic status.
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I hear Remember the Time on the radio way more than I hear Dirty Diana or Smooth Criminal.
 
Spaceship said:
US is the biggest country in the world.
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Biggest country is Russia, afaik. US is the biggest market for Western pop music, sure. No-one would deny that. Biggest and therefore most important (Western) pop music market. But not the only market. The rest of the world does count when it comes to record sales. If a record didn't hit No.1 in the US that doesn't mean it didn't do well elsewhere. There is no reason for Michael to disregard his chart success outside of the US. That would be weird.
 
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filmandmusic said:
Anyway I think Ben, Got to be there and rocking robin should have made the tracklist.

The greatest hits disc from book 2 would have been pretty hard to fill. Human Nature, Smooth Criminal, Dirty Diana, PYT, Say Say Say would have been there but what’s next…
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More Dangerous, and HIStory stuff like Earth Song and You Are Not Alone.
 
I meant that the music market is the biggest in the United States lol. Music sells more here than anywhere else.
 
This discussion going on is so pathetic ffs 😂

For me the most important chart is the Belgian one and Michael has has been extremely successful here with 10 nr 1 hits only beaten by Abba with 14
 
filmandmusic said:
This discussion going on is so pathetic ffs 😂
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I know! I need to bow out. It's going round in circles.

filmandmusic said:
For me the most important chart is the Belgian one and Michael has has been extremely successful here with 10 nr 1 hits only beaten by Abba with 14
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For me it's the UK charts. I can accept the US as the biggest market for Western pop. That said, I do get frustrated when it is presented as if it is the only market for Western pop when it clearly isn't.

This whole convo has got My Sharona on a loop in my head, ffs! :ROFLMAO:
 
filmandmusic said:
For me the most important chart is the Belgian one and Michael has has been extremely successful here with 10 nr 1 hits only beaten by Abba with 14
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Hang about! This has only just registered with me. Ten No.1's in Belgium? Ten?

Wow! Belgium could have it's very own MJ / Number Ones CD. 😲
 
zinniabooklover said:
Hang about! This has only just registered with me. Ten No.1's in Belgium? Ten?

Wow! Belgium could have it's very own MJ / Number Ones CD. 😲
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I was wrong it is 9. Well it is 10 but that is because Michael gets a credit for “a brand new day” but I simply don’t hear him so I don’t count it. Or you could say 12 if one counts we are the world and can you feel it.

These are the others: one day in your life, billie jean, beat it, thriller, I just can’t stop loving you, bad, dirty diana, smooth criminal, black or white

32 top 10 hits in total. Even another part of me reached nr 3 here. What can I say, we love em lol
 
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