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Do You Think Michael was Feminine?

Sophia2023 said:
I think Michael had a 25-to-28 inch waist during the peak of his career.
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yes! he is such a dreamboat :love:, broad shoulders, narrow waist, big hands, strong abs, perfection!

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Sophia2023 said:
I think Michael had a 25-to 28-inch waist, during the peak of his career.
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He was, basically, a naturally very small-built and skinny man for his height (about 5'9" to 5'10," as an adult), though his weight would occasionally fluctuate a few pounds here and there —— depending upon whatever circumstances he faced that affected his appetite, his diet, etc., also, his high metabolism and intense physical activity as a dancer for practically all of his life —— and so, his waist was narrow.
 
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GGVVGGCC22331122 said:
He was, basically, a naturally very small-built and skinny man for his height (about 5'9" to 5'10," as an adult), though his weight would occasionally fluctuate a few pounds here and there —— depending upon whatever circumstances he faced that affected his appetite, his diet, etc., also, his high metabolism and intense physical activity as a dancer for practically all of his life —— and so, his waist was narrow.
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OK
 
Licinus said:
Okay?
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@Licinus, I would be like: “AND, he was very skinny. . . .SO WHAT? What should that even mean or imply about him?” Not all men are built the same way, nor do all of them fit into the old stereotypical “Male body-type” of being “big, burly, heavy, ‘athletic’ and muscular.” People of either one of the two genders (at whatever stage of their lives, from birth to old age) are naturally built in a wide variety of ways, and come in every possible shape, size, height, weight and body-build/-type. Michael was no exception to this vast variety of HUMAN shapes and sizes; It’s just another aspect of him that wasn’t stereotypical.

What really irks me, is this stupid, ignorant false belief that ‘He MUST have had something physically, mentally and/or emotionally wrong with him, because of his weight, body-size and eating habits.’ So, according to some people —— certainly not either one of us, I’m going to make that clear —— he was physically supposed to have been this big, heavy, huge, hairy, buffed-up/“ripped”/“shredded” overgrown musclehead with an enormous appetite, who was ALWAYS hungry for food and who constantly ‘ate everybody out of house and home,’ due to his having been greedy, prone to having frequently overate and over-indulged himself, lest the media and the public would make up stories that there had been something ‘wrong’ with him? “Eating Disorder”/“Anorexia Nervosa”/“B.D.D.” my foot. . . .This is ridiculous. Oh, PLEASE!!!

I would like to tell anyone who has such a belief that it’s only one of several dumb, stupid, bold-faced LIES. Don’t ever trust nor believe the media, when it comes to stories about him. They only make up stuff like this to bring him and his reputation down, by labelling and mis-portraying him as having been “mentally unstable”/“crazy,” amongst various different other “reasons.”
Licinus said:
I just fail to see how that is relevant to the topic, I guess.
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Neither do I get the “relevance” and “importance” of this, @Licinus. We may as well respond to posters who continue bringing it up, with: “AND. . . .What is that supposed to mean?” It means absolutely NOTHING, is of ZERO importance, and it’s irrelevant.
 
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@GGVVGGCC22331122, Michael Jackson himself admitted (in several of his interviews) that he developed an eating disorder while he was still very young.

The singer also revealed to the American record producer Cory Rooney that his eating disorder would become more intense when he starts getting ready for a tour (i.e., refusal not only to eat but also to drink).

"When I get ready for a tour I get dehydrated. I don't eat. I don't drink. I don't sleep. I put so much of myself into preparing for a tour" (Michael Jackson)

Michael Jackson also stated that he had to be given food intravenously while touring.

Note also one of the singer's habits while he was still living in his family home.

Each Sunday he used to dance all day in his room until he felt exhausted, and then he only drank orange juice.

This particular habit is typical to anorexic people.

Also, it has been noted that one serious side effect of anorexia is cardiac arrest, and Michael Jackson died of cardiac arrest.
 
Sophia2023 said:
The Lyric has a warmer quality than the Light, and the Light has a little bit childish sound than the Lyric. The Light has a half-tone higher than the Lyric. In nature, Michael was just a normal Lyric Tenor, but he didn’t strain. Prince naturally had the similar voice as Michael, but sang differently because he didn’t want to be compared to him so he differentiated the vocal technique by adding “James Brown”-like screams, keeping the “Falsetto” when singing the high notes and lowering the larynx to achieve a darker-sounding, almost “Bass-Baritone”-like timbre.
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With all due respect to you, @Sophia2023, I very strongly disagree. Though both Prince AND Michael were very much influenced by James Brown as to their vocal and singing-styles, their natural vocal and voice-types couldn’t have been any more different from one another’s, 180-degrees totally opposite. Prince was indeed naturally much deeper-voiced in pitch than what Michael ever was throughout his whole entire career, even as the two of them were fully-grown adults.

While Michael’s natural voice was most definitely an extremely High Tenor* (*maybe even a possible naturally light-timbred “Countertenor,” according to some) who had occasionally used “Falsetto” on some songs (whose extremely wide Vocal Range extended to lower notes as well), but who had never really depended upon, nor exclusively relied upon, its use every single time he would hit or sing a high note, Prince, O.T.O.H., had a mostly Low Baritone voice that was capable of singing in multiple pitches and registers, but unlike Michael, however, it seemed as though he exclusively depended upon his use of “Falsetto,” to sing and hit higher notes in his Upper Register. As each one had his vocal strengths and not-so-strong points —— I wouldn’t necessarily call them “weaknesses.” —— on either end of their respective Vocal Ranges, one could naturally hit and sustain notes in full Chest Voice that the other could not (Prince for the lower-pitched notes, and Michael for the higher-pitched ones), and one relied a whole lot more on using “Falsetto” than the other, since their voices were so different.
 
GGVVGGCC22331122 said:
With all due respect to you, @Sophia2023, I very strongly disagree. Though both Prince AND Michael were very much influenced by James Brown as to their vocal and singing-styles, their natural vocal and voice-types couldn’t have been any more different from one another’s, 180-degrees totally opposite. Prince was indeed naturally much deeper-voiced in pitch than what Michael ever was throughout his whole entire career, even as the two of them were fully-grown adults.

While Michael’s natural voice was most definitely an extremely High Tenor* (*maybe even a possible naturally light-timbred “Countertenor,” according to some) who had occasionally used “Falsetto” on some songs (whose extremely wide Vocal Range extended to lower notes as well), but who had never really depended upon, nor exclusively relied upon, its use every single time he would hit or sing a high note, Prince, O.T.O.H., had a mostly Low Baritone voice that was capable of singing in multiple pitches and registers, but unlike Michael, however, it seemed as though he exclusively depended upon his use of “Falsetto,” to sing and hit higher notes in his Upper Register. As each one had his vocal strengths and not-so-strong points —— I wouldn’t necessarily call them “weaknesses.” —— on either end of their respective Vocal Ranges, one could naturally hit and sustain notes in full Chest Voice that the other could not (Prince for the lower-pitched notes, and Michael for the higher-pitched ones), and one relied a whole lot more on using “Falsetto” than the other, since their voices were so different.
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Similar voices, just different coordinations
 
Michael and Prince naturally had similar voices and their instruments were the same size, but sang differently and used different techniques. Michael brightened his voice and Prince darkened his voice. Similar voices, but used different stylistic choices. Both were smaller Lyric Tenors (Tenori Lirico).
 
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There you go again, @mj_frenzy. From where did you get your so-called “information”? From those recorded telephone calls of a fake, phony impersonator’s/impostor’s voice —— in Videos posted all over “YouTube”® —— (supposedly, allegedly) talking on the phone to a woman in the Early-1990’s, a voice that a lot of people claim was Michael’s? For anyone who knows what he really sounded like (in actual interviews he gave to the media over the years), the voice speaking over the phone on those calls was NOT his. “Anorexia Nervosa” and “Eating Disorders” are serious mental-health issues that result from a desire to be extremely thin/bony-looking, because of someone thinking that he/she/“they” are fat and overweight when one is not, because of poor “body image.”

Did Michael ever purposely starve himself, because he thought he was fat or overweight? Of course, NOT!!! Did he lose his appetite sometimes, when in very stressful situations that occurred in his life? YES. Not everyone reacts to psychological, physical, mental and emotional stress in the same way every time; Some people react to stress by compulsively overeating, and other kinds of habits/behaviors.

Was he ever greedy with food, a big eater, and did he have a ravenous appetite? No. Unlike a greedy, over-indulgent person who, shall we say, ‘lives and loves to eat,’ he only ate something when he really absolutely had to, to keep himself alive.

Is there anything really “wrong” with that, in and of itself? No. But apparently, to many people who have an enormous appetite for food, it is. This all depends upon which perspective is viewed through whose eyes, on who looks at what, in what way. Not only does stress cause or contribute to loss of appetite, physical illnesses often do, too, and the negative side effects of certain medications/drugs.

Michael had passed away, because of the incompetence, carelessness and negligence of his “doctor” (Conrad Murray) in administering “Propofol”® to his only patient at home —— instead of the patient having been properly monitored in a hospital, when and where he could have been given the correct treatment for his insomnia problems —— having left him unattended for any period of time (when he couldn’t even have been left alone in his bedroom for one second), not having stayed by his bedside and constantly monitored his vital signs at all times, not doing the proper C.P.R. procedure (by taking the patient out of bed and putting him on the flat floor before doing such a procedure, instead of attempting to do it while the patient is still in bed) as soon as any distress in the patient was first noticeable. This wasn’t because of Michael’s weight, but mainly due to Conrad Murray’s incompetence and negligence; Murray violated the Hippocratic Oath, as a doctor, to “First, do no harm. . . .” to ANY patient, no matter whom it may be, who needs and receives treatment.
 
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Sophia2023 said:
Michael and Prince naturally had similar voices and their instruments were the same size, but sang differently and used different techniques. Michael brightened his voice and Prince darkened his voice. Similar voices, but used different stylistic choices.
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To me, they sounded NOTHING alike at all, and their “instruments” (as you call their voices) were as different from one another’s as night and day. Their voices couldn’t be any further apart, as complete polar opposites; Even their natural speaking-voices were different. One had a naturally “darker”-sounding voice, while the other had a naturally “brighter”-sounding voice. In no way even close to having been remotely “similar to” each other at all.
 
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I suspect that Michael and Prince had very similar voices in reality and they used different approaches in singing and speaking. Michael and Prince modified their voices a lot to differentiate. They both had a passaggio of G4.
 
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Sophia2023 said:
I suspect that Michael and Prince had very similar voices in reality, and they used different approaches in singing and speaking. Michael and Prince modified their voices a lot, to differentiate.
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Still, we can respectfully agree to disagree with each other, on this. You and I have a major difference of opinion and beliefs. These men’s natural voices were totally different from one another, as their speaking-voices prove, and the way they sang. The difference in natural voice-types is not the same as a difference in vocal styles, though they both shared many of the same people who influenced and mentored them during the early part of their careers —— James Brown most definitely having been one amongst THE GREATEST of such musical influences and mentors —— as well can all hear for ourselves.

They each went on to develop their own separate and unique styles and ways of singing, helped in many, many ways by their natural voice-types. One man’s voice (Prince’s) was a naturally deep and rich Baritone/Bass-Baritone that was very heavily dependent upon the frequent use of “Falsetto,” while the other man’s voice (Michael Jackson) was a natural extremely High Tenor/possible “Countertenor”* (*as some believe it was, with which I agree that it may have been even closer to a “Countertenor” than to a “standard,” typical High Tenor —— much more so than anyone would have ever known —— since it sounded SO light, “delicate,” “young” and “androgynous” overall, in spite of the bottom Lower Register having slightly expanded), that didn’t undergo anywhere near as drastic a change from its former child Soprano as some “fans” love to imagine and fantasize about, a voice still capable of having sung very high-pitched “Soprano”-like notes in full Chest and Head Voice without the need, the reliance, nor the dependence upon “Falsetto” exclusively, to hit and sing high notes. On the flip-side of this, the deeper-voiced man (Prince) didn’t have to use “vocal fry” to sing and hit low notes, either, since this came naturally to him.
 
I listened to both Michael's and Prince's songs and I compared their voices and they actually had similarities and they modified their voices using their habits. Michael used high larynx to sound like that because he wanted to sound like a kid, while Prince used fry register while speaking. Prince used his falsetto a lot in his higher notes because that chest register in these notes wasn't developed. I think both were small kind of Tenori Lirico.
 
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Sophia2023 said:
I listened to both Michael’s AND Prince’s songs, and I then compared their voices. They actually had similarities, and they modified their voices using their habits. Michael used his high larynx to sound like that, because, he wanted to sound like a kid; Prince used lower tones while speaking. Prince used his “Falsetto” a lot in his higher notes, because, that Chest Register in these notes wasn’t developed.
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You have YOUR view, @Sophia2023, and I have mine. After all, we both are basing our views on what we each believe to have been true, right? The “HIStory”-album version of “Earth Song” is mostly sung in full Chest Voice through its entirety (even the powerfully belted-out “What about us. . . .?” parts in the last half of the song) —— the repeated “Whoo!!!” exclamations sung in a very strong Head Voice towards the end —— while songs like “Adore” and “Scandalous” are mostly sung in “Falsetto.” I hear NO such “similarities” between the two voices. None whatsoever, apart from both men having hit high-pitched notes in their songs. Michael was a very highly-trained “Speech-Level” vocalist as an adult (having worked with Seth Riggs, who taught him the method of singing high- and low-pitched notes without having raised or lowered his larynx, thus keeping the larynx in a “neutral” position). Prince may have also used and worked with the same method of singing, but we don’t know nearly as much about whether he actually did that or not. We do know about Michael having used this method, however, because of the “warm-up” Videos posted on “YouTube”® and what we have read online.
 
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Voice types are biological, not stylistic choice. Michael and Prince were both lyric tenors, but used different approaches even in ease and density. Their passaggio's were at G4.
 
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Sophia2023 said:
Voice types are biological, not stylistic choice. Michael and Prince were both lyric tenors, but used different approaches even in ease and density. Their passaggio's were at G4.
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I would argue that Prince was a lyric baritone with a very high upward extension to his range. His belts in the 5th octave are not nearly as smooth and effortless as Michael’s. Additionally, he chose to use falsetto a lot, way more than Michael did.

His speaking voice also had much more depth to it and sounded fuller, so did his lower notes. He actually sounded quite comfortable in his lower register, whereas Michael, did not always. I don’t think Prince can be considered a tenor, even less so a lyric tenor, but that’s just my opinion.
 
dethorro said:
I would argue that Prince was a lyric baritone with a very high upward extension to his range. His belts in the 5th octave are not nearly as smooth and effortless as Michael’s. Additionally, he chose to use falsetto a lot, way more than Michael did.

His speaking voice also had much more depth to it and sounded fuller, so did his lower notes. He actually sounded quite comfortable in his lower register, whereas Michael, did not always. I don’t think Prince can be considered a tenor, even less so a lyric tenor, but that’s just my opinion.
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People confused Prince's voice technique is like mistaking a tenor for a baritone and according to Jayron Mainor, I think Prince still sounded like a tenor when lowering larynx. I also think Prince was a developed lyric tenor because he hid his naturally light weight when faux baritone techniques.
 
@GGVVGGCC22331122, I get my information from Michael Jackson himself, from his family, and from some of his closest associates.

Michael Jackson's eating habits is not a subjective matter that depends on which perspective is viewed through.

Since he was a kid, Michael Jackson exhibited signs and symptoms of anorexia.

Even his own mother Katherine Jackson expressed her fears about his refusal to eat.

She even mentioned a characteristic example:

When Michael Jackson was still a kid and the Jackson family would go out for hot fudge sundaes (a type of ice cream topped with hot fudge, nuts and whipped cream), he would be the only one who would not want one because of his refusal to eat anything.

As she also implied, her son Michael Jackson was probably the only kid in the world who did not want to eat a hot fudge sundae.

The singer also stated in one interview (in the mid '00s) that he had been suffering from food crises (implying also anorexia) when he would not eat anything for whole weeks to the point of becoming unconscious.

Michael Jackson exhibited signs and symptoms of anorexia also during the 'This Is It' era, when for example Kenny Ortega would force him to eat.
 
mj_frenzy said:
@GGVVGGCC22331122, I get my information from Michael Jackson himself, from his family, and from some of his closest associates.

Michael Jackson's eating habits is not a subjective matter that depends on which perspective is viewed through.

Since he was a kid, Michael Jackson exhibited signs and symptoms of anorexia.

Even his own mother Katherine Jackson expressed her fears about his refusal to eat.

She even mentioned a characteristic example:

When Michael Jackson was still a kid and the Jackson family would go out for hot fudge sundaes (a type of ice cream topped with hot fudge, nuts and whipped cream), he would be the only one who would not want to have one because of his refusal to eat anything.

As she also implied, her son Michael Jackson was probably the only kid in the world who did not want to eat a hot fudge sundae.

The singer also stated in one interview (in the mid '00s) that he had been suffering from food crises (implying also anorexia) when he would not eat anything for whole weeks to the point of becoming unconscious.

Michael Jackson exhibited signs and symptoms of anorexia also during the 'This Is It' era, when for example Kenny Ortega would force him to eat.
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I’m sorry, but nothing of what you say implies anorexia. Why would you jump to such conclusion? There can be many reasons as to why one won’t eat as much or regularly!
 
Sophia2023 said:
Voice types are biological, not choice. Michael and Prince were both Lyric Tenors, but used different approaches even in ease and density.
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No, @Sophia2023, their natural voices were already totally different from each other, right from jump. In fact, their natural voices couldn’t have been any further apart; I very highly doubt that Prince would have been able to sing “Earth Song” at all —— much LESS having convincingly and sufficiently mastered the full Chest-Voiced Upper-Register belts during the last half of the song, in addition to the strong Head Voice exclamations towards the end (such high, powerful belting reminiscent of SO much of what Michael used to do in the early beginnings of his and his brothers’ “Motown”-era career as a child and young teenager, before the physical effects of puberty/adolescence took over) —— or, the absolutely BEAUTIFUL vocals of such great songs as “Someone Put Your Hand Out,” “Butterflies,” the “P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing)” Demo from “Thriller 25,” “Childhood,” “Heaven Can Wait,” “Speechless,” etc., any more so than my imagining Michael having tried to sing “Purple Rain,” “Scandalous,” “GOD,” “Temptation,” “I Hate U,” “Insatiable,” “Shh. . . .,” “Do Me, Baby,” “The Most Beautiful Girl in the World,” “I Wish U Heaven,” “The Beautiful Ones,” “Adore,” etc., and various other songs like Prince had. Here is a segment taken from a much earlier comment (one of the first I had made in this thread) that specifically pertained to their individual voices and vocal types:
GGVVGGCC22331122 said:
“Their natural voice-types couldn’t have been any more different from one another’s —— like night and day —— as Prince’s voice was a much deeper Bass-Baritone that could extend upwards as high as ‘Falsetto’ and ‘Whistle’-Pitch Register when he sang, while Michael’s, as an adult, was an extremely High Tenor that never truly ‘lost’ any of its former ‘child Soprano’-like Upper Range (because, though he would use ‘Falsetto’ occasionally —— every once in a blue moon, on some songs, but not on all of them, when he would hit high notes —— he could still sing high notes without having had to rely on it) even while the Lower Register had slightly expanded downwards to near-‘Baritone’-like notes by the time he reached middle-age; It had maintained, throughout his adult life and career, its androgynous ‘young’ sound as well.”
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Sophia2023 said:
That’s the truth, because, voice-types are always based on biology, according to Kaji.
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Who is “Kaji”? And, in what field of musical or vocal anything is “Kaji’s” expertise? I’d like to know. You are basing your whole entire viewpoint on someone else’s personal opinion, and not on the facts that you have researched on your own, for yourself.
 
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