For easy reference: Juror #27's answers to fans' questions (No Discussion)

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Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

they could remove him because thats what the contract said. kathy jorrie also testified on stand that aeg could remove the doctor without mjs consent. whether that was overstepping or not, thats what the contract said (which imo strengthen that aeg hired murray).
I'm talking about removing him from MJ's side. Even if AEG banned him from their facilities and severed all contact with him on their end, he would still have been free to visit MJ at night and give him propofol.
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

How did the jury feel about katherine not asking for a penny from murray ? Did you really buy her excuse ?
Very good question. I would love to hear what juror 27 thought Katherine's excuse/explanation for not taking restitution from her son's killer Conrad Murray?
I'm drawing a blank here. Was this something she said in her testimony? All I remember was that she said they brought AEG to trial to search for the truth about what happened to her son. I don't remember hearing about why she chose not to seek restitution from Murray.

I asked you about your definitions a few days ago but didn't find you answered my question. Why are you implying that your legal defs of incompetent and unfit are the only definitions that matter? Are they in the jury instructions? If not, then the jury is free to use their own definition. Jurors are not lawyers, they are there to bring their own life experience, common sense to the deliberations. You yourself say that there are different defs, legal and colloquial.
Just to clarify this a little bit, we were explicitly told that we could not reference a dictionary for these terms, and that we were to use our common sense to guide us. We heard a lot of testimony regarding fitness and competence, so we absolutely understood the precise meaning of both of those terms.
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

ok but as times pass and mjs health is detoriating, was he fit and competent????

they see mj detoriating and what do they think??? what made kenny to believe it was dr murrays treatment that affected mjs health? kenny alerts aeg but they tell him the doctor is a good guy.

im sorry but if i have a personal doctor with me who is suppose to help me but im getting weaker and weaker, isnt that an alarm that something is wrong and that its the DOCTOR causing it????
I'm sorry but if that is the case would you wait around for someone else to come around and remove the harmful doctor, or would you act in your own best interest and get rid of him yourself????

mj is detoriating for 8 weeks, has a meeting with aeg and murray where they basically tell mj to get it together and are concerned about whats going on. im sure oth mj and murray knew they needed to improve or they would cancel the shows which leads to mj being pressured and murray being afraid he will lose his $150,000. so mj comes back in great shape for TWO days only and all is good???
So MJ comes back in great shape for two days, tells AEG he is fine and ready to go, and they should respond by removing his personal doctor????
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

which emails? can you be more specific???

i guess you are not talking about the emails where they called michael 'the freak'...
That 'freak' email came from an office in London, not from anyone directly involved with Michael, and Mr. Trell in his response to that email was clearly not in agreement with calling MJ a freak.

I can't point you to a specific email since I don't have access to the evidence, but I absolutely remember a lot of language in various emails where Mr. Phillips and Mr. Gongaware showed genuine care for Michael. I'm not saying they were saints, but I don't believe that they were malicious or evil either.
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

im not asking that, im not asking why didnt aeg remove murray. im asking how can you claim murray was fit and competent when ppl are alarmed for 8 weeks but two days are good and thats all that matters for you??? those two last days were the dealbraker????

unreal
Like someone said earlier, it is not like Michael was on death's door every day for those 8 weeks. The way you are painting it is that MJ came to rehearsals every day looking like a dead person. I don't think that is accurate.

You have to go on what you see at the time. MJ's health is in decline, people are getting concerned, they go to see him and he is fine. He comes to rehearsals and looks great. He says he is fine to continue.

Is it not a fact that sometimes people are sick and then they get better? Is it not the case that people go in funks and depressive episodes sometimes and then pull themselves out?

oh really??????

Trell responded to the email with: "Apparently. Not sure how I feel about that. Interesting for sure, but kind of creepy."
Yes, and I don't take that as Trell calling MJ a freak. The counsel from London called him that. Creepy is such a vague and overused term that it just doesn't register for me as a major offense, I'm sorry.
 
Thrill;3915339 said:
u should know better. trell agrees that he is not comfortable to meet with MJ ''the freak''. he calls the meeting creepy (he is gonna meet the freak and its creepy). this is not an offense to you?????? ohh i forgot im talking with a person that understood why randy phillips screamed and slapped michael. its never acceptable to scream and slap a partner inspite how stressed out the situation is.

im sorry for your sake that you cant see that trell saying he is gonna meet a future client is creepy is offensive. a FREAK and a CREEP they are gonna make millions off.


why are you defending their behaviour????? can you please explain?
I'm not defending calling MJ a freak. I find that comment disgusting and reprehensible. I'm saying that Trell's response is not on the same level as the initial email. I had a coworker who was prone to calling large women 'whales'. He'd say stuff like "Hey did that whale pick up her order yet?", and I would answer yes or no or whatever, but the fact that I didn't correct him doesn't mean that I agree with what he called them.

Furthermore, this has nothing at all to do with whether CM was negligently hired/retained/supervised by AEG, so is this just an appeal to emotion?

Tygger;3915340 said:
Testimony from Jorrie showed no one at AEG vetted the doctor. The defense was wise enough to not suggest Jorrie’s Google search was a vetting process so it interesting that it is being suggested the jury would see it as such. Panish would destroy that suggestion if the defense attempted it simply because the search did not discover the doctor’s two faux offices that he fabricated.
And why exactly should AEG be expected to conduct this extensive vetting process for a doctor that was being brought to them by their star performer, especially since they were in essence doing nothing more than giving MJ a loan to pay him?

"Hey guys I want to bring my doctor aboard the team. He's been my family physician for years and I insist on him."

"Yeah well we don't trust you or your doctor MJ so we are going to perform a thorough background check of this doctor including his financial status"

Yeah I can't swallow that response as reasonable.

Tygger;3915340 said:
Jurors were not to decide if AEG knew about propofol or any treatment the doctor administered to Michael. AEG was the ONLY party in the three- party contract that could terminate the doctor so the “boundaries of the promoter” were already crossed thus, the conflicted interest of the doctor.
Where are you getting that AEG was the only party who could terminate CM? The contract clearly spelled out that if at any time and for any reason MJ did not want CM's services, he could fire him. Maybe you are thinking of an earlier draft before "producer" was changed to "artist" in the clauses?

Tygger;3915340 said:
The jurors were to decide if AEG hired the doctor and the jurors did. Jurors were then asked if the doctor was unfit or incompetent for the job he was hired for which speaks to his conflicted interest during his two months of employment.

It is interesting that it is being suggested the doctor was hired in “the weakest sense possible” yet; it was that contract, where only AEG could terminate the doctor that the jurors relied on to answer no to question two. The doctor was considered fit and competent by the jurors to provide general care to Michael as per the contract and to his children who were not included in the contract.
You are all over the place here. We did not buy the conflict of interest argument. Sorry. AEG was not the only one who could terminate Murray. The kids were going to go to London, and if they were to get sick while over there it would be Murray who would treat them. That they were not named in the contract does not mean that Murray would not have attended to them while in London.

Tygger;3915340 said:
It is also interesting that there was no response regarding the doctor’s attempt to fleece Michael of $5M being seen as a precursor to unethical or conflicting behavior.
Because the mere act of asking for a large amount of money does not make a person unethical in my opinion, nor does it indicate a precursor for unethical behavior. I think that line of thinking is irresponsible and dangerous and I reject it wholeheartedly.
 
Tygger;3915397 said:
Juror27, again, your responses are extremely familiar. AEG drafted an employment contract and that is what the jurors found AEG did in question one.

The jurors depended on the contract for their verdict to question two and that contract had eight terminations clauses. Michael could only terminate the doctor THROUGH AEG as per clause 7.3. Michael was NOT allowed to terminate the doctor directly as per that contract. The contract that was relied upon by the jurors explicitly stated Michael was to receive the doctor’s care, NOT Michael’s children or anyone else.
I'm sorry but you are flat out wrong. The original boilerplate contract that Ms. Jorrie used had "producer" listed in the termination clauses. When she sent the draft contract to Murray, he reviewed it and told her to change "producer" to "artist". She agreed with that and changed it in subsequent drafts.

I don't know what else to tell you.

Tygger;3915397 said:
Anyone who asked for outrageous amounts of monies only because it was Michael Jackson attempted to fleece Michael Jackson. When that same logic is applied to the doctor who jurors found to be fit and competent as opposed to be negligent which would cause AEG to be held liable for negligent hiring, here is the reply:
You will never convince me that the act of asking for large sums of money means that a person is unethical or likely to be unethical. I will also not accept that a person in debt or foreclosure means that they are unethical or likely to be unethical. I find that view extremely troublesome.
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

you told the world the man that killed mj is competent and fit inspite mj detoriating for 8 weeks. that is on your conscience.
My conscience is as clean as a whistle, bro. You can hold that.
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

If I've offended anyone here with anything I've said I apologize sincerely as that was not my intention at all.

I really did not intend to cause any problems here, and I do hope to stick around for a while. I was apprehensive about posting at first but I did so with no other intention than to give some insight as to what we saw on the jury and to let you all know that we came away from the trial with so much admiration for Michael the person.

I always prefer direct information over speculation if it is available to me, and that is all I wanted to provide here. I understand there will be disagreements about the verdict and I don't mind that or take that personally, but calling my character or conscience into question is completely uncalled for and I refuse to engage in that kind of discussion.

Thanks for all your replies. I understand how you and the jury don't feel what aeg did or didn't do in may/june 09, doesn't rise to the level of liability in this lawsuit. It was a tough lawsuit for the plaintiffs to win and it was aeg's to lose, seeing the cause of mj's death was such an unusual occurrence - an o/d with a doctor present making foreseeability really difficult to prove.

I can't say i agree that aeg showed care and concern, when tii reached a crisis point on 19th june, it seemed phillip's main concern was to keep ortega onside to make sure the shows went ahead, rather than any concern as to what the matter with mj was. I agree with you that ortega seemed to be one of the few genuine ones around mj. It was telling that when asked about mj's petrified state at the press conf in london ortega replied that if he had known about it he wdn't have taken on the tour as he wd have recognised mj wasn't emotionally/psychologically ready, whereas randy's reaction was to slap and scream and increase the number of shows mj had to perform from 31 to 50.
I agree with this. Like I said, I don't think Phillips is a saint. But I also don't think it's fair to hold everyone to the Kenny Ortega standard either. He is a pretty special guy.

Maybe by looking in detail at how mj died on 25 june? I'm just assuming here that you didn't closely follow the murray trial a couple of years back. This trial didn't dwell on murray's negligence, there seemed to me to be an emphasis on the asking of prop by mj being the key to his death rather than how it was administered. Aeg actually made that claim explicit which ticked me off in that it was mj's negligence that led to his own death, not the hiring/supervision of murray, the admin of prop being like russian roulette - at a certain point death was inevitable.

The facts at the murray trial actually showed the quite spectacular breaches in the standard of care that murray had for mj in order for him to die on 25 june - 17 egregious breaches of care. Such negligence that there was discussion in the da's office to prosecute the case as murder 2. It wasnt a series of unfortunate little incidents which added up to a horrible consequence - it was really quite massive violations which would be quite unexpected and inexplicable in a fit and competent general practioner doctor, never mind an anaesthesiologist - it made me wonder why aeg didn't fight the case on foreseeability alone rather than blaming mj. The absence of any written record of what drugs mj had been given and when, the leaving of mj's bedroom for up to an hour whilst mj under a prop drip so murray cd make non urgent social phonecalls , no monitoring equipment whatsoever, long delay in phoning 999, lying to paramedics and hosp staff about what had been given to mj. Mj had the right like we all have to expect basic standard of care and competence from his doc, what went wrong on 25 june was not a complicated set of circs only an anaesthesiologist cd overcome, mj cd prob have been saved by a pair of eyes seeing he needed a chin lift to unblock his airway. I honestly think you would reconsider your 50/50 split between mj/murray if you knew the details.
You are correct that I didn't follow the Murray trial and those details about how Michael died were unknown to me.

I don't believe that MJ taking propofol to sleep was something he did under the impression that it was safe. He was warned repeatedly about and knew full well the dangers of using propofol in an inappropriate manner. So MJ is at least 1% responsible for his death. That seems absurdly low to me considering that he knew he was requesting something that was illegal, unethical, and highly dangerous.

Taking your points into consideration about what CM actually did that morning I do agree that he should hold the majority of responsibility for MJ's death. Whether that amount should be 60 or 75% or whatever seems impossible for me to resolve on my own.

I will say that I had no idea CM was sentenced to only 4 years until I heard it towards the end of the trial, and I damn near fell out of my chair. Even if I were to assign CM 50% of the blame, I would still have given him life in prison. That sentence and the fact that he is getting out in a few weeks is unbelievable to me.
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

The below is the contract the doctor signed. This is what was admitted into evidence and what the jurors based their verdict on. NOWHERE in that contract does it state the artist could terminate the doctor WITHOUT going through the producer. It also does not mention the doctor caring for anyone else besides Michael.

http://www.psblaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Exhibit-168-Aegl-127388-127393.pdf
You are correct. My apologies for saying you were wrong. I was mistaken with other clauses which had their language changed.

It seems clear to me that the reason he would be terminated by producer is because the agreement is between the producer and CM. How would Michael have any legal authority to void a contract between Murray and AEG? That's why they have that provision in there in the first place, because he is only being hired at the request of the artist.

Are you saying that if MJ said he wanted Murray gone, that AEG would have held this contract up to him and forced CM to keep treating him?
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

To Juror 27: I have sort of a two part question for you
1. Do you think the jury could have reached the same verdict given the facts
determined in the contract between AEG/Murray without the many weeks spent by
both sides exposing Michael's private medical records? Was his struggles with pain
issues related to his burn, skin condition...etc. necessary information for you to
hear in order to reach the verdict you did?
On one hand, no I don't think it was necessary for us to hear that to reach the verdict we did. That stuff gave a backstory, but it wasn't relevant to the questions we were asked to answer.

On the other hand that evidence was some of the strongest as far as garnering sympathy for MJ's struggles. I was completely unaware of the procedures they performed on Michael to heal the burn scars. Good lord that balloon implant stuff sounded so painful. I didn't know that he had that fall where he hurt his back in (Munich?).

I never believed MJ was a junkie like so many people say, and that evidence made it clear to us that he was indeed not one and was trying to deal with unimaginable pain.

And 2. Was it noticed by the jury that there was a large span of time, probably
2003-2009 that was barely addressed during trial, if at all. Did you wonder why
testimony focused on 20, 10 years ago but not the immediate years before his death;
or did it matter?
We definitely noticed that big chunk of time that was not focused on, but from what we heard it seemed Michael left the country in '05 or so? I'm not too sure on the dates but that is the impression I got, that he was just not around much in that time period. We did get a lot of '02-'03 testimony from the doctors who were seeing him in Santa Barbara during that time, Dr. Farshchian from Florida, from Randy talking about staging interventions, Mr. LaPerruque who was traveling with Michael during that time and also at Neverland, etc.

It just seemed to me that after the '05 trial MJ went away for awhile until around '07-'08.
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Wondering what 27 thinks about the family dropping restitution inturn for going for the jackpot against aeg and what that says about the families motives for filing the suit as this is probably the one thing that has caused the biggest anger and outrage amongst the fan community although not the biggest surprise considering the jacksons actions to mj over the years
I was unaware that the family dropped restitution against CM to go after AEG until earlier today when I read it here. On the surface it does seem to imply that they were setting their sights on a target with deeper pockets, but I don't wish to speculate as to Ms. Jackson or the family's motives when deciding their legal actions. I am not privy to their discussions and I think for me to question their motives is inappropriate.
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

I beleive he said he doesn't recall Katherine 'explanation' of why she didn't go after Murray,. I truly hope Katherine is awarded a lifetime Academy Award before her time is up on earth, she truly deserves one as she is the epitome of an actor/actress.
As a complete outsider to the whole Jackson saga, it is killing me to read this kind of stuff about Ms. Jackson all over the place. All I saw was a very sweet lady who reminded me of my grandmother. Obviously that does not mean that she is incapable of questionable decisions or actions. And I know that plaintiffs presented the nicest, sweetest picture of her to us that they possibly could.

I think on this one I'm going to bury my head in the sand. :ph34r:
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Katherine saying she didn't accept restitution because Murray had to feed his kids was ridiculous IMO. I believe she made that answer otherwise she would have to admit she didn't bother going after him because he has no money and it would have greatly reduced damages from AEG.

Now he'll be out there profiting freely from killing her son.
That is a questionable reason to drop restitution for sure. I have a hard time swallowing that explanation.

Juror#27, you are making way too much sense with your explanations. It's clear to me that the jurors discussed and considered all points and didn't rush the verdict. I find their reasoning logical.

MJ deteriorating didn't make Murray unfit for what he was hired. He was still hired for general care. No one knew MJ was like that because of him and you had Karen sending emails to Dileo telling him MJ was self-sabotaging as this was how he was operating according to her, so why would anyone suspect Murray?
Agreed.

Panish actually admitted outright that Katherine sued AEG and didn't sue Murray for financial reasons:


http://news.yahoo.com/judge-sets-rules-suit-over-144028519.html

So there is nothing to question here, they basically admitted that they dropped complaints againgst Murray in order to be able to go after AEG because AEG had money and Murray didn't.
Hmm. Seems pretty cut and dry from where I'm sitting.

Oh and I forgot to add about Juror"27's point that AEG tried to help - it's true. In the emails they offered to get the best therapist for MJ as they had access due to dealing with sports teams.

And they also got a food person taking ccare of MJ's eating when they were told he wasn't eating much. So it ain't like they completely turned a blind eye. The problem was they were in the dark as to what the real issue was.
Yes. I think Mr. Phillips and Mr. Gongaware could have shown more compassion towards MJ, but that is a matter of my personal morality and what I think I would have done in their situation. At the same time they did make efforts to help him and they certainly wanted him healthy and ready to do the shows. So while I might wag my finger in disapproval at them for not being as caring as I like to think I would have been, I do not agree with holding them liable for MJ's death or forcing them to pay billions of dollars to anyone.

Juror27, there is nothing illegal, unethical, or highly dangerous about the use of propofol.
If you are ordering propofol under false pretenses and administering to someone in a non-medical setting without the proper skills or monitoring equipment, I think that qualifies as being illegal, unethical, and highly dangerous. How can you possibly dispute this?!?

There is nothing illegal or unethical about the administration of propofol even in a home setting. The administration of propofol is highly dangerous and was ultimately fatal when done by a negligent, conflicted, cardiologist. Michael passed from the negligent administration of propofol by the doctor not from simply the substance itself.
You seem to be implying that Michael's choice for curing his insomnia was not dangerous had it been done by a qualified anesthetist. This is counter to what the experts testified at trial, where they showed that being in an induced coma is not restful sleep, and that to continue to use propofol to treat insomnia was an extreme deviation of standard medical care. There was not one expert who testified that it is OK to use propofol to sleep, regardless of whether it was in a home setting, hospital room, or administered by an anesthetist or a layperson. The use of the drug to 'sleep' is highly dangerous FULL STOP.

It was unnecessary for the jurors to know when the doctor would be released from prison. Senneff testified to the state that Michael was found in on the day he passed. The "trustworthy" Detective Martinez and Detective Smith determined the doctor was suspicious in the death of his patient because they believed he was conflicted enough to put his patient second to the $150K fee.
I agree it was not crucial for us to know when CM was getting out of prison. Like I said, it was revealed in an offhand comment towards the very end of the trial. No time was spent discussing it in testimony.

Yes, it is detectives' jobs to be suspicious about things. They were investigating a death. Their post facto suspicion does nothing to convince me that AEG should have been expected to run a check on CM's finances prior to hiring him.

It was also unnecessary that the jurors knew that a plaintiff previously rejected restitution because jurors are not to rely on or express biases to any party. Certain Jackson family members can sue the doctor civilly as AEG could have also sued the doctor civilly. One may feel a plaintiff was "targeting a deeper pocket" however, AEG was made whole by the estate and profited from TII as testified to in court.
I agree, I understand why that information was kept from us.

It did not seem clear to another juror who spoke to the media and stated the children would be cared for by the doctor when they were not listed in the contract. Another juror did not characterize Michael as a junkie however, the juror did characterize Michael as addict who no one would say no to.
You are reading far too much into that comment by the juror. There is no question that MJ was dependent on Demerol and an addict for a period of his life. He checked himself into rehab in case you forgot. And yeah, there was ample testimony that showed that MJ had no shortage of doctors throwing whatever drugs he wanted at him. And there was plenty of testimony that when MJ was challenged or stood up to by someone, he would often cut that person out of his life.

This is evidence we were shown in court. If you want to take that juror's comments as slanderous or malicious in spirit you are free to do so, but Mr. Smith was just as fond of Michael as the rest of us. I know for a fact that he was not intending to disparage MJ.

Jurors are instructed to ask any questions they may have during deliberations. Any concerns about AEG possibly forcing a doctor to continue to care for Michael were to be addressed at that time.
Interesting. So rather than follow your implications to their logical end, you would rather deflect with a meaningless statement. We had no reason to discuss the termination clause because it was a red herring. I was asking YOU to explain your assertion, and your answer speaks volumes.
 
Tygger;3915580 said:
It was also testified to that Michael trusted doctors by the “trustworthy” Rowe. As Lee testified to in the criminal trial and the civil trial, Michael believed it was safe as long as he was monitored.
Ms. Lee testified that when Michael asked her if she could get propofol, the first thing she did was check the Physician's Desk Reference to see what it was used for and what the side effects were.

She then brought the book back to Michael and explained to him that it was not intended for sleep and that a possible side effect is death.

Michael also had tried to get propofol from Dr. Quinn back in 1999, and she refused and told him of the very same dangers.

When Michael was given propofol in the mid '90s at the order of Dr. Metzger, the 2 anesthesiologists who administered it told him that it was highly dangerous and that they would not administer it to him again.

So no, I'm sorry but I don't believe you when you say "Michael believed it was safe". If he trusted doctors so much, why would he disregard all these warnings?

Tygger;3915580 said:
No one is qualified to speak to that juror’s feelings or views except that juror. It was also testified to that Michael was an addict however; he was not a participant in his addiction in 2009. An ethical doctor would say no to Michael and not be concerned about not being able to participate in Michael’s celebrity lifestyle.
Yes, I agree Dr. Murray was highly unethical and negligent in his care of MJ.

Tygger;3915580 said:
And your response again is extremely familiar. I previously stated I am neutral on the validity of your identity. I also said I would not pose any questions to you as that discussion will not change the verdict I do not agree with.
What does my identity have to do with anything? I asked you a simple question based on the contract we were talking about and an assertion you made, and the best you can do is deflect and question my identity?

Tygger;3915580 said:
There is no proof anything being said about Katherine or any Jackson to you in this thread is fact yet you readily and eagerly believe these negative views. Interesting indeed.
Oh? So that link to quoted trial testimony is fabricated? Have you any evidence of this? Interesting indeed.
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

You formed an opinion of Katherine in your response to Elusive Moonwalker
Oh, I did? Let's take a look at what I said in response to Elusive Moonwalker:

I was unaware that the family dropped restitution against CM to go after AEG until earlier today when I read it here. On the surface it does seem to imply that they were setting their sights on a target with deeper pockets, but I don't wish to speculate as to Ms. Jackson or the family's motives when deciding their legal actions. I am not privy to their discussions and I think for me to question their motives is inappropriate.
1. I didn't know about restitution being dropped against CM by Katherine.
2. On the surface it does seem to appear that the plaintiffs are looking for deep pockets.
3. I don't think it is my place to question or speculate as to Ms. Jackson's motives.

Under what kind of twisted and tortured logic can you read that and say that I have formed an opinion of Katherine? As I sit here right now I don't hold an opinion of her other than that I really liked her testimony.

What Morinen quoted was not trial testimony; that quote was pre-trial.
Yes, the quote was pre-trial but it was a quote from a deposition which is considered the same as testimony. Can you kindly provide any evidence for why I should not believe the article to be accurate in its reporting of sworn testimony?
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

I believe the opinionated statement is clearer now.
3. I don't think it is my place to question or speculate as to Ms. Jackson's motives.

We are done. Cheers.
 
LastTear;3915689 said:
@Juror#27 I apologise if this has already been asked, I'm in a different time zone so I play catch up but I do try to read everything. In your opinion did Randy Jacksons deposition help the defence or the Plantiffs?
It really didn't factor in for either side because what he testified about was not directly related to the questions we were asked. He was never brought up in deliberations since we were focusing on the hiring time period rather than the time Randy testified about, which was the early-mid 2000's mostly.

elusive moonwalker;3915767 said:
Another question for u. . if you had to award damages did or have u ever thought about what sort of figure you would go for and how it would be split amongst kj and the kids or have u never even thought
At a certain point during plaintiffs case they were just drilling us daily with the 'nasty' side of AEG (mean emails, Mr. Phillips slapping MJ, etc.). Mr. Panish just went to town on them. I did start to think that I would be OK with awarding some kind of small punitive damages. Something like $10M.

Later in the trial as other information came out and I got a clearer picture of everything, I stopped thinking that they should owe $10M or any money at all.

Bubs;3915792 said:
This is hypothetical question to Juror 27.
This is about the verdict form and if jury was to find AEG liable, what percentage would have been put on Michael.

Plaintiffs agreed that Michael was 20% responsible as per their pie chart
pie-chart.jpg


If the verdict would have been AEG liable, what percentage would you have put for Michael?
I was never convinced that AEG's actions in any way caused Murray to give MJ propofol. If AEG had known what Murray was doing they would have shut everything down in a heartbeat.

So on that pie chart I would have had to unfortunately put MJ at 100% and AEG at 0%. I think the instructions said we could put any percentage on each side as long as it equaled 100%. But since AEG is being held liable in this hypothetical, I guess they have to be at least 1% responsible.

The real pie chart should be between MJ and Murray, and after reading a lot the last few days about how Michael died and thinking it over more, I think I'd put Murray at around 90%.

jamba;3915963 said:
I don't know if Juror #27 is still around, but I was interested in what he said about Briggs' testimony and it implied he was impressed with Panish as a lawyer. I was wondering if he had any comment about the interactions between Panish and Putnam, and between the 2 legal teams in general.
I was blown away by Mr. Panish. What an awesome, commanding presence in the courtroom. Knows the law inside and out. A quick wit and genuinely funny as well. I might not have been buying all of what he was selling, but the sales pitch was the best I've ever seen. Just a master of his craft.

Mr. Putnam I found equally impressive in every regard. He is just as commanding a presence, just as quick witted and funny, and he also knows the law inside and out. I took careful note of how Mr. Putnam handled sensitive witnesses like Prince and Katherine Jackson. He was ever respectful even while asking hard questions. Just a class act all around.

The interactions between the two legal teams was by far the most entertaining thing about the trial. I could not believe the amount of snarky comments and mean looks being thrown back and forth. So many childish arguments ("He started it, your honor!") it sometimes felt like the judge was more of a nanny and she even said something to that effect a few times.

There was one incident where Mr. Panish had heard during a break that an AEG attorney (Ms. Strong) was staring at him while he was questioning a witness. She was seated to his left about 6 feet away. So when Ms. Strong went to the podium (which was a few feet behind Mr. Panish's spot at the attorneys' table) to question the same witness, Mr. Panish turned 180° in his chair and stared directly up at her. That lasted a few minutes before the judge told him to face front. So he faced front, kinda. Then started to slowly turn back around until he was finally staring directly back at her. Ms. Strong says "Your honor..." and motions to Mr. Panish, who is already turning back around. The judge admonishes Mr. Panish a 2nd time, and he says "It's OK your honor, I have her on video now." Mr. Panish had set his laptop camera to capture Ms. Strong and he sat there face front, staring down at his laptop video to watch Ms. Strong question the witness. It was so hard to not laugh out loud at this.

That was something I did not expect, that there would be so much humor in the courtroom. Quips between the attorneys, or an unexpected answer from a witness (Like when Ms. Rowe repeatedly used the phrase "pissing match" to describe 2 doctors who were trying to give MJ more and better drugs -- the judge's reaction to that was priceless), or any other random thing that would happen in there. There were laugh out loud moments almost every day.


jamba;3915963 said:
Another question--did the jurors (or this juror) feel the trial went on too long and that it was too drawn out and maybe repetitive? Was the jury burned out after 5 months?
Looking back it's pretty clear now that a good amount of what we were shown wasn't relevant to the questions we were asked to answer. I didn't think it was too repetitive, and the times it was repetitive were mostly towards the very end. The beginning and middle of the trial were riveting. I personally wasn't burned out by the length and I don't think anyone else really was either. I think a few just were itching to get back to their normal routine.

jamba;3915963 said:
Last question: What did Juror #27 think of the witness Earley, the one who did the study on propofol addiction and who had been an addict himself (heroin) at one point?

Thanks! :) It's been a pleasure to read your clear and well-reasoned responses, Juror #27!!
I really, really dug Dr. Earley. He had some very emotional testimony and I teared up listening to him describe his struggles. How he hit bottom and managed to get himself clean. It was just so inspirational and my heart went out to him.

I was surprised to learn about the propofol study funded by AEG, and hearing him explain that whole thing was fascinating. Dr. Earley was one of the rare witnesses who were questioned by Mr. Boyle, and I thought he stood his ground well when Mr. Boyle was grilling him about a few blog posts he made shortly after MJ's death (I don't know if you've seen them). I do have to say though that I thought those blogs were way too sensationalist and poorly-written. I don't think they damaged his credibility, but I just didn't like them.
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

thanks for answering my question. re what you said above. one of the issues many fans had with the judges rulings is she seemed to let anything and everything be heard during the trial. for example the majority of the jacksons case had been thrown out pre trial but the judge still seemed to let witnesses that were more related to the sections that had been thrown out testify in the actual trial. many fans also pretrial and right at the begining felt the judge had a bias against mj as she made several comments that stated her feelings that mj was just another typical druggie rockstar "like the rollingstones" when the evidence clearly shows that was not the case.
I don't know the judge's personal opinions, but I doubt very highly that she allowed her alleged "bias against MJ" to color her judgment in the case, especially if she supposedly let any and everything in the case for the plaintiffs. If she let everything in the case for the plaintiffs, wouldn't that be bias in favor of MJ?

I think it is far more likely that she did her best to keep things neutral.

i also wonder whats your opinion on the jacksons trying to have their cake and it it interms of in one hand claiming mj was a drug addict who needed saving from himself and was weak and didnt want to do 50 shows and was being bullied by AEG etc etc. yet in the next breath claim he was going to carry on working/touring into his 70s plus and was going to tour with his brothers afterwards (something mj denied himself many a time the last being in late 2008) obviously said to try and increase the damages to the ridiculous figure of 40 bill. seems to me the jacksons were trying to have it both ways in their quest to win lots of $$
That does appear to be contradictory at first glance, but if I may speculate for a moment I would guess the rebuttal to that would be that Murray's negligence and AEG's pressure is what wore MJ down and weakened him so much. So if we take those things out of the equation in an alternate future where MJ successfully completes the first 50 shows, then the contradiction between weakened/invigorated MJ disappears. (Of course this is all predicated on Murray being somehow removed from MJ's life, and I don't see why that would be the case since he was there due to MJ wanting him there. I guess we are to speculate that MJ at some point in this alternate future would just get rid of Murray?)

The more glaring contradiction in my mind is simply comparing MJ's actual touring history and revenues with Mr. Erk's projections. I wish I still had the demonstrative exhibits they showed and passed out to us because all the numbers were there. But from memory it was speculated MJ would do something like 260 shows in ~3 years, and his actual touring history was 272(?) shows over a 10 year period. A 10 year time period when he was much younger and with no kids, I might add.

@Juror 27

I personally was surprised that defence lawyer Putnam didn't bring up Katherine dropping restitution more times during the trial, in order to show reason from this trial. Putnam only brought it up during Katherine's testimony. Second issue for me was that Katherine sued AEG Sept 2010 and before Conrad Murray was sentenced to prison, which was Nov 2011. Did this raise any questions in your mind?

We got this from ABC7 tweets:
Putnam: You do believe Dr. Murray has some responsibility for your son's death? Mrs. Jackson: Of course
Putnam asked Mrs. Jackson if Dr. Murray was convicted in the criminal trial. She said yes.
He asked if the doctor is now in jail. "I hope he is," she responded. (ABC7)
Putnam inquired about Mrs. Jackson asking the District Attorney to drop the $100 million restitution against Dr. Murray. Mrs. Jackson said yes, that Dr. Murray has children and has no money. "Because I felt his children needed him to take care of them," she explained. "He didn't have any money."
Putnam: You asked the DA to drop the $100 million restitution claim against Dr. Murray?
Mrs. Jackson: I asked them to drop it because of his children, he has quite a few children, 7 or 8, I don't know.
Mrs. Jackson said she believes the DA may have dropped the $100 million restitution claim.
Putnam: Did you drop the restitution claim so you could file this lawsuit? Mrs. Jackson: No (ABC7)

I quess you cannot remember everything that was said during the trial, but I personally would have wondered greatly that mother of deceased son is more angry at concert promoter for "alledged" hiring than being angry at the real killer of her son.
That to me would have been proper and clear red flag.
Were you aware of that plaintiffs offered settlement twice before the trial?
I was unaware of the settlement offer until after the trial. If it was mentioned during the trial I didn't recall it. It was definitely not something that was talked about at length.

Reading those tweets refreshed my recollection a bit and I do remember her answering those questions now. I remember getting the impression that there were probably a lot of people in her ear who convinced her to go after AEG and not Murray. And at the same time I reminded myself that the case was to be decided by the facts and not my speculation as to Ms. Jackson's motivation for bringing the suit. So even if I believed that she was just going after deep pockets, in the end I would have awarded damages if I thought they proved their case.

More hypothetical questions:

Regarding that Panish's pie chart, would all the juror have to agree the percentage of responsibility or how it would have worked? If you say MJ was responsible 99%, were other jurors had to be in agreement with that amount, or all jurors put their own percentage and then judge would have decided average?
-----------------------
Also, did all the juror had to be in agreement amount of money awarded or all jurors put their own amount and judge decides average?
Based on how we deliberated the first 2 questions, I think we would have tried to agree on the percentage rather than just averaging our different percentages.

I'm not sure but I think we had to be in agreement on the amount of damages. I don't know if that is explained in the verdict form or not, but I'm certain that if we made it that far we would have wanted to agree on both the % and the amount of damages. I don't know how the court would've handled it if we couldn't agree on those numbers.

Thank you so much for the detailed description in the courtroom. It's really interesting to read and envision these two opposing forces facing off in a court of law. I knew that Brian Panish was very good just by taking a look at his winning track record, and it seems Putnam was some real competition for Panish. It takes some real skill to be a trial attorney.

Thanks for giving us a peak into that world. I wanted this trial to be televised. It would have been something to see.
You're welcome.

I agreed with the judge's decision to not televise the trial, but looking back I do wish I had a way to watch it (some of it, I should say) all over again. While I took my duty as a juror very seriously, there were just so many entertaining moments that it would be nice to see some of them again.

Another funny thing I remember during the trial was when Mr. Phillips was on the stand and Mr. Panish was questioning him. He was asking about an email that Mr. Phillips had sent someone where he said he had info that would exonerate Conrad Murray, or something to that effect. Mr. Panish asked why Mr. Phillips didn't take this info to the police, and Mr. Phillips said that it was something crazy and unreliable. He tried to elaborate on what the info was but Mr. Panish wouldn't let him. So later when he was being cross examined, Mr. Putnam got around to the email info and asked Mr. Phillips to relay it. Mr. Phillips said that Lionel Ritchie's wife at the time had called him and told him - Mr. Panish: "Objection, Hearsay" - Overruled. Mr. Phillips continued and again Mr. Panish objected on the same grounds. Overruled again. So Mr. Phillips finally says that Ms. Ritchie told him that Michael told her - through a medium - that he had accidentally killed himself and that Murray was not to blame. Immediately Mr. Panish says "Objection. C'mon. Double, triple hearsay now?" The whole courtroom erupted on that one.

The end is that CM decided to do wrong/go against oat (under clear debt pressure... u have a family , u have to pay your rent and bills. what if they tell u that they pay your salary and u have to do what told otherwise no $ for your bills?) and AEG was / is liable for CM wrongdoing because they hired him, as your verdict of hiring said.
That is incorrect. The question of liability is separate from the question of whether they hired him. If I hire someone to fix my roof, and while working for me they decide to shoot my neighbor, you believe that I should be liable for their actions?

That is why the questions are broken down further to ask whether AEG hired a person who was unfit or incompetent, and whether they knew or should have known he was incompetent. If I have information that the roofer I hired has killed someone before or attempted murder, then I can be held liable. If I have information that the roofer I hired has no experience working on roofs and is actually a gardener, and he injures someone on the job, then I can be held liable.

In this case, AEG had no information that Conrad Murray was an unethical and dangerous doctor. That was purposefully kept secret from them by Michael himself. His medical background qualified him to give basic medical care, so they were not hiring a gardener to work on a roof. They were hiring a doctor to be a doctor.

There is 1 thing very important to note :
Thanks to the verdict about "AEG Hired CM" there are legal grounds (much stronger than before) for the Jackson Family to have AEG liable , via an appeal and probably without even passing through a jury.
Now I'm no fancy bigshot lawyer, but I'm having a hard time believing this to be the case. I am interested to see where this appeal business ends up, however.

Thanks, Juror #27, for your great replies. Some of the things you witnessed must have been hilarious--like the judge reacting to Debbie Rowe's colorful language. And the conflicts between the 2 teams--at one point they were almost coming to blows (at least from the reports)--was that true?
Yeah Ms. Rowe was a trip. I liked her a lot, but I have to admit there was a small incident where she rustled my jimmies. When Ms. Rowe was being questioned by Ms. Chang of the plaintiffs, Ms. Bina from the defense objected to a few of the questions. For some reason, Ms. Rowe took these objections as personal attacks and kinda lashed out at Ms. Bina. I was totally taken aback because in my opinion Ms. Bina was by far the sweetest, most unassuming attorney on either side. Even when she was grilling a witness she was just so nice and pleasant. So seeing Ms. Rowe go after her when she didn't do anything wrong was a definite WTF moment, but Ms. Rowe had to go into some pretty tough testimony and I chalk the incident up to emotions running high + misunderstanding. Ms. Bina handled the situation with grace and a smile.

As far as Mr. Panish and Mr. Putnam, I never saw any outright physical hostility or even any raised voices between them, but I heard from a few people who said they saw them arguing loudly in the hallway one time. I got the sense early on that there was very real animosity between the two of them. At one point Mr. Panish was questioning Mr. Phillips about having lunch at the Polo Lounge with Mr. Putnam and a third party I can't remember at the moment. I want to say Dr. Tohme Tohme or someone from Colony Capital. Whoever it was, Mr. Panish was intimating that some serious shenanigans were afoot at the meeting. When it was Mr. Putnam's turn to cross examine you could just feel the anger coming off him even though he kept his composure exceptionally well.

Remember the cartoon where the wolf and the sheepdog would clock in and out like they were at a job? They'd try to kill each other while on the clock and then clock out and be nice and chummy? That is how I pictured the two lead attorneys for a while. Early in the trial I often wondered whether they would have lunch or have a couple beers with each other after it was all over, but I stopped wondering that after a certain point.

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So, maybe you could comment on 2 other witnesses--Prince and Metzger? Specifically, what did you think of Prince's testimony that he saw Randy Phillips grabbing Murray by the elbow? Also I think he said some men came to see MJ while he was away at rehearsal, including Phillips (if I remember correctly). As I recall, he was not sure of the date (understandable since he was 12 years old). I think he called MJ and MJ told him to offer them something. How did you, and the jury, feel about this testimony as far as the negligent hiring issue and AEG's alleged pressure on Murray was concerned?
I didn't put much stock into that portion of Prince's testimony (the elbow grab). He was pretty vague on it himself, and as you said he was 12 years old at the time. It appeared to me that he was maybe combining incidents or remembering incorrectly, but I don't know. Same for the testimony about people coming over when MJ wasn't there.

What did you think of Metzger's deposition statement versus his live testimony in court? Did you think he was contradicting himself, or at least walking back what he said in his deposition? What was his effect on the jury in that he was the final witness for both sides.

Thanks--I really appreciate your sharing your thoughts and experiences. :)
Actually he wasn't the final witness for the plaintiffs. They called Dr. Metzger's attorney last. Dr. Metzger had retained the attorney just a few days prior to testifying, and that attorney also just happened to be Ms. Rowe's attorney (who was referred to Ms. Rowe by plaintiffs). But he was a last minute thing and was only on the stand for maybe 20 minutes total. :p

Dr. Metzger's flip-flop was something that stood out like a sore thumb. In his deposition it was clear what he meant when he said that MJ was doctor shopping, and then on the witness stand he was practically calling his own deposition out as untrue. I don't know what that change was about but it was impossible to ignore.

We spoke about his change in testimony briefly in deliberations since it was so fresh in our minds, but his testimony was not germane to the questions on the verdict form so it was nothing we considered too heavily. We all noticed the change though, I remember asking if I had remembered the deposition incorrectly or attributed it to the wrong person. We all scratched our heads on that one.

From my vantage point, it's clear Murray was more influenced by the pressure applied by MJ rather than AEG. Conrad knew it wasn't AEG that wanted him there. Look at events: Michael's getting sick, AEG is trying to figure out what's going on, Conrad obviously knows what's causing it and yet, despite the confrontation with AEG execs, he doesn't stop because Murray knew MJ would replace him if he said "no" to the Propofol. Regardless though, Murray is the one who CHOSE to violate his oath as a doctor and that's solely on HIM no matter who or what was pressuring him. (Many individuals have found themselves in far dire circumstances than Conrad's situation and they didn't resort to unethical and/or criminal behavior.)
Just want to say that this is an excellent summary of the events as I see them.

Id like to know juror27's impression of TJ and Taj Jacksons testimony.

Id also like to know the reaction/atmosphere in courtroom and among jurors when Debbie Rowe broke down over Paris Jackson.

Id like to know what you thought about the notes the kids wrote to their father and the homevideos that were shown. Did it somehow change your perception of MJ as a father?
I thought Taj and TJ were great. I'm exactly Taj's age so it was interesting to hear about him growing up with MJ as an uncle since at the same time I was growing up knowing MJ as a worldwide phenomenon.

I thought they were both smart, humble and honest. Their testimony didn't really have anything to do with the central questions of the trial, but I appreciated hearing their stories of being with their uncle both as kids and adults. I got the impression that they really loved him and miss him and I thought they were both good people at heart based on what I saw and heard. It was pretty disheartening for me to read Taj's tweet about "big money wins again, no justice for MJ" or whatever it said after the verdict. That bummed me out.

There were a lot of emotional breakdowns in the trial but Ms. Rowe's was especially hard to see. You're sitting there and this person is going through this soul-crushing emotional pain, and your instinct is to want to give them a hug or comfort them somehow. But you can't. And the attorneys can't either. You just have to sit there and watch them struggle. I'm a pretty sympathetic person in general, but this trial really pushed me to the limit. Ms. Cherilyn Lee also broke down when testifying about how MJ trusted doctors too much, and she relayed how her mother also trusted doctors too much and that her mother died because of that misplaced trust. She had the most intense emotional breakdown and I can still remember the feeling in the pit of my stomach as I sat there watching her. My heart just broke for this poor woman over and over and having to sit there detached as someone is pouring their heart out and crying in pain was very hard.

The atmosphere was like being at a funeral whenever someone would break down. The air felt heavier, everything got quieter and you could just feel the tension every time it happened. To the judge's credit she handled emotional testimony with care and concern for the witnesses. Always offering to take a break if they needed it, quick to hand over tissues, reassuring them in a kind way. I really liked how she handled those instances.

One day towards the end of the trial (actually after Ms. Rowe's testimony I think), before the next witness was called, the judge read an instruction to us that said that there was a lot of emotional testimony during the trial, and that attorneys are forbidden from approaching the witness to console them in any way, and that we were not to view their inaction in a negative light. I kind of figured that on my own but it was interesting to hear it officially spelled out.

As far as the videos and handwritten notes, I was really touched by those. I honestly had no impression of MJ as a father before the trial so I didn't even have a perception that could be changed. I do have an impression of him as a father now and it is overwhelmingly positive. The thing that stood out to me the most about Michael as a father is how well he kept them grounded and instilled in them good character traits like caring for others, being helpful, being disciplined, being grateful for what they have, etc. Just imbuing them with good, old-fashioned values that are unfortunately going by the wayside more and more every day. And you see this manifested in the letters that they wrote to their father and how they treated everyone around them. They just seem like great kids and I think they are that way because they had a great father.

They showed the clip of Paris crying at Michael's funeral a bunch of times, and it hit me like a truck every time. Even now I just feel so much sorrow for her that this amazing, positive force in her life was taken away so early. I truly hope she manages to find peace and harmony in her life after all she has been through at such a young age. I hope for that for all of them.
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Welcome back, Juror #27--I thought we'd lost you so it's a nice surprise to see your replies!

MJ tried to replace CM a number of times--with Dr. Adams in Las Vegas, by asking Metzger and Cherilyn Lee if they could find someone to give him 'IV sleep medicine' (aka propofol, we assume, although Metzger says this specific anesthetic was not mentioned in their discussion), and was not able to find someone else. I think he tried and decided that he had to go ahead with CM, as he was the only one willing to do it (although we know Dr. Adams agreed also but CM blocked MJ from knowing that).
Thanks for the kind welcome back, jamba. I've been meaning to stop by lately, just been a bit busy.

I don't think MJ wanted to replace Murray with Adams (or anyone else). I think it is more likely that MJ wanted a second set of hands and eyes to help him 'sleep', and who better to bring in than an actual anesthesiologist?

When MJ was administered propofol in Germany, there were 2 medical personnel present. Ms. Rowe testified about how they told her and MJ that protocol required at least 2 qualified persons present when administering anesthesia. They explained that it is very possible that a single person could have something unexpected happen to them while the patient is under, which would then put the patient in serious danger. I believe MJ had enough experience with legitimate administration of anesthesia that he knew there should always be backup personnel present, and I think that was his reason for seeking out an additional person via Adams, Lee and Metzger.

I also believe that Murray was worried that bringing someone else aboard would cut into his paycheck, and that is why he appeared angry at the meeting with Adams and why he later stonewalled him when he finally decided that he was willing to go on tour with them.
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Juror#27...first thank you so much for coming back. We are a feisty bunch here, but I think everyone does appreciate your providing us insight into the thought processes of the jury, even if their is disagreement with the verdict.

Second, would MJ's debt have factored into the damages amount if you had gotten that far?
That's an interesting question. My initial reaction is that his debt seems irrelevant to the matter of damages, but then I remember that we were supposed to be arriving at a figure which would represent what Michael would have reasonably been expected to provide to his mother and children had he lived. In that light, his personal spending and debt do need to factor in.

We were shown extensive testimony about how much MJ had spent on his mother and children in the past, and also a lot about his personal spending and debts which obviously would affect how much he actually had available to provide to them. So there would certainly need to be some discussion about his spending habits and debt when trying to arrive at a figure which would represent what he would have actually provided to them, but how much of a factor it would have been is not something I can speculate to. Especially without all those figures and exhibits in front of me or knowing the other jurors' opinions on this subject.
 
Re: Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Yes, I agree with this. What I meant by 'replace' is that he wanted to replace Murray as the primary person who gave him the propofol. I think he would have kept Murray on--just as you said--but not to administer propofol, which he knew Murray was not qualified to do. So Murray could have been the general practictioner, the second pair of hands, and so on, but not the main person to act as what he wasn't--an anesthesiologist. But b/c no one else was available (as far as he knew), he went--reluctantly--with Murray.

He was obviously looking for an anesthesiologist b/c he went to Adams and before that he asked Lee and Metzger to recommend one as well. It would have been easier if he had found someone in L.A. but eventually, he went back to Vegas to talk to the one guy he knew who had given him propofol before.
This seems reasonable to me.

But back to the original quote from krikzil, I do believe that Murray would have been ejected from the picture if he refused to give MJ propofol. There was just too much testimony about how MJ would cut someone off at the drop of a hat when he was unable to get what he was looking for from them (and in other cases for no apparent reason at all). I also agree with krikzil that Murray was more conflicted/pressured by MJ than by AEG, but once again the decision to ignore his oath was his alone.
 
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