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I Am a Fan, But... (What Makes You Heretic Among Other Fans?)

Kissenya said:
this will be remembered for a lifetime)))))
And I think that at heart he remained a child and all these things were also toys for him in a sense. [...]
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First of all, do we know if the statues - to use an obvious example - were actually Michael's idea? Bc they might not be. The PR department at the record label would be in charge of the PR campaign for his albums. Obviously he has to be in agreement but, mostly, it's driven by the marketing experts at the record label. The other thing is, yes, you're right, there is a playful element to some of these things. The statues - which, as I say, I was not keen on - can be seen in that way, for sure. It all fits in. Comic books, fantasy films, superhero imagery. I'm not sure it needs to be taken so seriously.
 
If you look at Michael Jackson making a statue of himself and start drawing comparisons to a dictator then I think the confusion lies with you honestly. The cult of personality effect wasn't really the issue as much as the gross violations of human rights but what do I know.
 
Dart_Jack said:
During the Thriller years, he had not yet tried to erect monuments to himself and it was clear to everyone that he was already the best.
And in the era of History he became a monument to himself and his vanity.
I think modesty is a beauty. And to be truly great, you don't have to elevate yourself through laudatory documentaries.
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I’ve made this point myself in the past. during ‘thriller’, particularly 1983, michael’s work and talent was able to speak for itself. he didn’t need any gimmicks or elaborate publicity stunts. he presented himself as being humble. the album was actually released somewhat quietly. especially in comparison with what was to come after..

it was his belief that all publicity was good publicity, that was a large part of his downfall in my opinion. while I wouldn’t diagnose him with anything, I agree with the examples you listed portraying major ego. I think it actually started earlier than that though..
 
83magic said:
I’ve made this point myself in the past. during ‘thriller’, particularly 1983, michael’s work and talent was able to speak for itself. he didn’t need any gimmicks or elaborate publicity stunts. he presented himself as being humble. the album was actually released somewhat quietly. especially in comparison with what was to come after..

it was his belief that all publicity was good publicity, that was a large part of his downfall in my opinion. while I wouldn’t diagnose him with anything, I agree with the examples you listed portraying major ego. I think it actually started earlier than that though..
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To become the greatest requires humility. Maybe to remain the greatest requires great displays of skill.
 
Dart_Jack said:
Is the film Moonwalker not a sign of narcissism?
Isn't building giant statues HIStory of yourself narcissistic?
The Legends Continuity and The One not a sign of narcissism?
HIStory Teaser not a sign of narcissism?
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No, Moonwalker film is work of fiction. Or are you saying any actor who plays superhero in a movie is a narcissist?
and History statues are marketing. You need to read what narcissism means before throwing the word around.
 
Hiker said:
No, Moonwalker film is work of fiction. Or are you saying any actor who plays superhero in a movie is a narcissist?
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Before the main segment of the film (Smooth Criminal) begins,
in a retrospective of his career, where Michael (as film producer and co-writer) creates a level of tribute to himself that many other great artists did not receive even after their death.

Some of Michael's self-praise moves border on kitsch. And although I love Michael very much, I think this is unnecessary.
 
I don't think the HIStory statues was him being narcassistic. The HIStory statues were a big middle finger to the people who tried to bring him down in 1993.

Another unpopular opinon of mine is that as much as I love Don't Stop Til You Get Enough (My fave from Off The Wall) I don't think it worked at all live and I can understand why Michael decided to drop after the Triumph Tour.
 
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AlwaysThere said:
Michael’s habit of dismissing his talents as divine intervention or something along those lines annoys the hell out of me. I would love to see a serious exploration of his songwriting and production process from his viewpoint, but he refused to elaborate unless he had to (e.g., the 1993 deposition).
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This is the guy people insist had an ego, the one who said everything he did was because of God. Because of some art he did.
 
AlwaysThere said:
[...] Michael’s habit of dismissing his talents as divine intervention or something along those lines annoys the hell out of me. I would love to see a serious exploration of his songwriting and production process from his viewpoint, but he refused to elaborate unless he had to (e.g., the 1993 deposition). [...]
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Interesting take. Lots of artists, novelists, poets etc describe the creative process in exactly the same way. Some label it as God, some as universal energy, some say they don't know what it is but it comes from somewhere else (from 'on high' or something like that). The idea of the art being channelled through you is such a standard way of explaining something that cannot really be explained nor can it be properly understood by those of us who are not particularly creative. As a man of faith Michael most likely did believe his talent / songs came from God. What's dismissive about that? Seems reasonable enough to me.

Otoh, was Michael being dismissive or was he just being protective of his creative process? I don't think artists really like being asked questions about that, maybe he was sidestepping the question for self-protection purposes.

Mister_Jay_Tee said:
This is the guy people insist had an ego, the one who said everything he did was because of God. Because of some art he did.
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I am very open to the idea that Michael's inspiration came from God. But I love that story when he said he has to capture a song quickly in case God gave it to Prince. Can't remember the exact quote but that's the basic gist. Always makes me smile.
 
analogue said:
I don't think the HIStory statues was him being narcassistic. The HIStory statues were a big middle finger to the people who tried to bring him down in 1993.

Another unpopular opinon of mine is that as much as I love Don't Stop Til You Get Enough (My fave from Off The Wall) I don't think it worked at all live and I can understand why Michael decided to drop after the Triumph Tour.
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Very interesting, and something I’ve also considered myself when watching footage of it from the Triumph Tour. I don’t know, it just lacks something -for me- that I can’t quite put my finger on.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
I like the new version of Do You Know Where Your Children Are. And I dislike the Tricky Stewart version of Slave to the Rhythm. It's not bad though, just dated.
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Same man. I thought I’d possibly be hung for admitting it, but yeah, it works for me also, weirdly enough.
 
I don’t really like the ”remix” songs in Xscape, i think all the original versions are way better. Except Place with no name is better in the remix
 
In my humble opinion Butterflies and Threatened are trash! I don't like these songs

I would rather listen Heaven Can Wait or You Are My Life
 
miikasillanpaa said:
I don’t really like the ”remix” songs in Xscape, i think all the original versions are way better. Except Place with no name is better in the remix
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That is not a hot take, that is not heretical, that is literally the most popular opinion ever. And one I don't like cause I like both versions most of the time.
 
Interesting thread - I also read a post about Michael should have had piercings and that also crosses my mind now and then :ROFLMAO: . But I would say ears, only ears.

To answer to the thread:

  • I don't really like Thriller (song) ot Beat It, although I love the live performance, especially when he crawls inside the camera 😅
  • I don't listen to most of the ballads, only when I am watching concerts - here skipping equals blasphemy ;)
 
Stain Finkins said:
In my humble opinion Butterflies and Threatened are trash! I don't like these songs

I would rather listen Heaven Can Wait or You Are My Life
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Butterflies and Threatened are two of my favourites, as well as You Are My Life.

Heaven Can Wait isn’t for me, but I wouldn’t describe it -or any MJ track- as trash. Being that he’s my all time favourite artist and all.
 
I don’t know if this is an unpopular opinion but those leg pads/guards he wore from the History Era onwards were god awful. Not only did they seem to heavily restrict his movements but the design in general was just too much, and they looked so awkward from certain angles that wasn’t the front. Just look at the small rehearsal clips from the history tour rehearsals where he’s just wearing normal pants without the leg things. It’s almost like day and night. He spins fast and his movements are fluid, sharp and precise. Whenever he wore those guards everything seemed to slow down exponentially.

I think the coolest and best compromise was on the Dangerous Tour 93 leg for Black Or white. But even there, he only wore it on one leg and it was only for one song. Come History Tour and onwards he wore it for Scream, TDCAU, ITC, BOW, The Jackson’s medley (2001 anniversary), Heal The World (Apollo 2002). He also wore them for several public appearances. Was this maybe suppose to be his new trademark thing like the hat? Lol, well yeah, never liked them.
 
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Stain Finkins said:
In my humble opinion Butterflies and Threatened are trash! I don't like these songs

I would rather listen Heaven Can Wait or You Are My Life
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The highlight for me with Threatened is the brilliant rap sequence. Just the idea of having Rod Serling in a "rap" sequence in the song by copy/slizing sound bites, is both hilarious and ingenious at the same time. Would not surprise me if this was Michael's idea from the start.

The unknown monster is about to embark
From a far corner, out of the dark
A nightmare, that's the case
Never Neverland, that's the place
This particular monster can read minds
Be in two places at the same time
This is judgment night, execution, slaughter
The devil, ghosts, this monster is torture
You can be sure of one thing, that's fate
A human presence that you feel is strange
A monster that you can see disappear
A monster, the worst thing to fear

This also mocked the people who were accusing him, implying they think he's some sort of evil genius. A musical genius? Yes!
 
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I wonder if these two would be considered heretical:

1. Although MJ desperately longed to go into acting and film making, I think he was mediocre/unconvincing as an actor, and lacked the nuance to be a film maker. I think being the creative genius that he was, he got carried away with his ideas, and I think he needed other figures to reign in his creative ideas to produce something solidly coherent. Hence Thriller video is miles better than Ghosts, and SC song video is miles better than YRMW video. And the actual plot of both Moonwalker and Ghosts films is so obviously autobiographical that it loses the nuance of great story telling. (And in general his earlier works are considered better than his later works when he had full creative control later on in his career).

2. MJ loved LMP. He lit up and glowed in his pictures/appearances with her. I don't think that could have been faked.
 
I must admit Michael was quite unimaginative with his setlists. Once, he found the perfect formula in his mind, he copied and pasted it from one tour to the next. Take, for example, the Jackson 5 medley. He had performed the same three songs as part of the Jackson 5 medley since the Triumph tour. He never bothered to change it, and that was so frustrating, as Jackson 5 had so many other songs that I would have loved to have seen Michael perform as an adult.
 
Nite Line said:
I must admit Michael was quite unimaginative with his setlists. Once, he found the perfect formula in his mind, he copied and pasted it from one tour to the next.
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Agree with that. It's a shame every night was exactly the same set list as the previous night. Would have been great to tailor it to play the songs that were more popular in each country. And to include more unusual songs, and stuff from earlier in his career.
 
R1chard said:
Agree with that. It's a shame every night was exactly the same set list as the previous night. Would have been great to tailor it to play the songs that were more popular in each country. And to include more unusual songs, and stuff from earlier in his career.
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[mj_frenzy]Keep in mind that only a small fraction of the audience were actually fans of Michael Jackson. The vast majority were casual concert attendees. That's how he generated revenue with his tours, to make the mainstream music listener coming to his shows. The singer knew this, so did his promoters, hence the 'greatest hits' setlists. Michael Jackson, the US-American singer and entertainer, had a decades long experience in the business to know what works.
Imagine a Michael Jackson concert without Billie Jean, Beat It, Thriller, Smooth Criminal, Black or White, you name it but instead some obscure deep cut like Liberian Girl. He'd be crucified if he didn't play these. And rightly so as confirmed by his close friend J. Randy Taraborrelli (who knew him inside out from birth to death, trust me). He got away with lip-syncing because the concerts were an expereience of a lifetime nonetheless. But not playing Beat It? No way![/mj_frenzy]



For those who don't know, this post is filled with grains of irony and enriched by plenty of sarcasm. Enjoy!
 
MichaelD said:
Imagine a Michael Jackson concert without Billie Jean, Beat It, Thriller, Smooth Criminal, Black or White,
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Nobody is saying don't play Billie Jean. Although now you mention it, we can all imagine a greatest hits track list without Smooth Criminal (just listen to HIStory).

But it would have been nice to acknowledge that different songs were hits in different countries. Some songs weren't even released as singles in some countries.

Imagine how much people would lose it if he unexpectedly said "Because we're in London, I'm gonna sing the only Jacksons song that ever got to #1, so here's Show You the Way to Go!" Or "Because we're in Amsterdam, here's my first Dutch #1: A Brand New Day!"

He was doing something similar on the Bad tour (the medley was Beatles songs in Liverpool, but Eric Clapton in London).

Look at the album "KOP". There was voting, and the tracklist is different in every country.
 
I saw MJ 4 times in Munich.
• 92
• 97 (twice)
• 99

Never saw him in any other city though.

I had „Thriller - Hospitality Tix“ for TII in London, quiet at the front of the stage. 😩
 
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