I think we're at the stage where we may be doing more harm than good.

AG5050;4254140 said:
Respectfully, this is a discussion forum and not everyone is going to have the exact same outlook, views and opinion as you do. So as much as you would like to see “those words only”, I’m not here to be told what to do, say, or think by someone else.

You clearly read my topic and disagree with the way I think, I am ok with that, and you have expressed that here as you have the right to do so.

What you don’t have the right to do is make demands on how other people view the situation, if you don’t agree with how I feel, and others who have responded to what I said with support, then it would be simpler to just leave this thread rather than expect us to change our views to align with yours.

This is not agree or disagree about the facts of MJ’s being framed. It’s accept or don’t. As for me leaving you and those who “think” like you...that’s a non issue.

That little caveat you must toss in about nobody really knows means you all should be on another forum with that bs

Being an open forum I do have the right to say hands down MJ is innocent based on facts. You reserve the right to reject those facts...obviously.

If you only want opinions that support only your view of MJ there’s always the blog function.

You carry on..but then since you “weren’t there” my questions is, why are you here. Rhetorical. I won’t be back for this covertly hostile discussion veiled as support.
 
SoS;4254309 said:
This is not agree or disagree about the facts of MJ’s being framed. It’s accept or don’t. As for me leaving you and those who “think” like you...that’s a non issue.

That little caveat you must toss in about nobody really knows means you all should be on another forum with that bs

Being an open forum I do have the right to say hands down MJ is innocent based on facts. You reserve the right to reject those facts...obviously.

If you only want opinions that support only your view of MJ there’s always the blog function.

You carry on..but then since you “weren’t there” my questions is, why are you here. Rhetorical. I won’t be back for this covertly hostile discussion veiled as support.

You’ve got me competely wrong but that works for me. I am more than happy not to continue this discussion with you.
 
This isn't targeted at anyone, it's just a general statement: Michael is not here to fight this himself, so we have to be his voice. That's just the way it is and will always be. If you are tired of fighting, step back and rest, but let others continue. Like Taj and Brandi have realised, people burying their heads in the sand for years is what led to this diabolical mess. Detaching yourself from the situation until it goes away is fine if that's what you need to do, but as a collective that is the last thing fans should be doing. We have to think of the big picture. If the fans hadn't stepped up to challenge this in the way that we have, it would have been a complete disaster. Some unintentional promotion of the thing we are fighting against is inevitable, but it's worth it to reduce the damage. When this is behind us we will be able to look back and know that we did right by Michael.

Thank You, thank you!! I agree with every single word you posted!!!!!
 
I got to say I don't only experience negativity in these months of actively defending Michael every day. Yes, I get hate on social media, my colleagues at work ask me if I saw the film and tell me why they think Michael's guilty and I got to patiently tell them some counterbalance etc. Plus all the emotions of feeling the injustice and especially the ignorance of people. It does drain energy, yes. But. The last months I've again seen our community in action. Globally, we came together for defending Michael, in all countries, all regligions, genders, age groups. This is magical. When I am down I got lifted up by fellow fans, #MJFam is very solidary, very supportive. I've seen so much love the last months, for Michael, for each other, for just the message of love and healing. It shows to me that Michael really created what he always wanted: a united group of people, joined for a mutual cause, no matter where they are from. This feeling of having a global family is proving to me that neighborly love really exists and that Michael's always been right about equality.

To me, Michael doesn't just mean music. Michael is my third parent. His music and his soul are one. If someone attacks Michael, he attacks me as well. I'd not be who I am today without him, he is a part of my socialization. In 2005, Michael needed us. Now, he is gone, but still he needs us now. He can't defend himself anymore, so we & his family and friends got to be his voice now. And when Michael needs me, I'm there. No. Matter. What. And that is why I am not capable of ignoring what's happening currently. I cannot stand by while ignorant people try to destroy his legacy. I want to help out, I want to be there for him. So I am.

Great post! I agree.
 
SoS;4254309 said:
This is not agree or disagree about the facts of MJ’s being framed. It’s accept or don’t. As for me leaving you and those who “think” like you...that’s a non issue.

That little caveat you must toss in about nobody really knows means you all should be on another forum with that bs

Being an open forum I do have the right to say hands down MJ is innocent based on facts. You reserve the right to reject those facts...obviously.

If you only want opinions that support only your view of MJ there’s always the blog function.

You carry on..but then since you “weren’t there” my questions is, why are you here. Rhetorical. I won’t be back for this covertly hostile discussion veiled as support.


I agree that this is hostile discussion veiled as support. I’ve seen this exact same thing in other forums. Someone will say they are a fan, and then go into this hostile discussion. It’s an agenda. Recently someone posted on twitter that haters are posting pretending that they used to be fans, and now are no longer fans because of the fraudomentary. It’s contrived because these people were never fans and are a part of the hoax/conspiracy/agenda.
 
somewhereinthedark;4254321 said:
I agree that this is hostile discussion veiled as support. I’ve seen this exact same thing in other forums. Someone will say they are a fan, and then go into this hostile discussion. It’s an agenda. Recently someone posted on twitter that haters are posting pretending that they used to be fans, and now are no longer fans because of the fraudomentary. It’s contrived because these people were never fans and are a part of the hoax/conspiracy/agenda.
This is ridiculous my post was not intended as a hostile discussion in the slightest. I posted becasue I am simply of the belief that fans constant rebuttals of LN is just prolonging it’s life span and I believe we should let it die which it will do.

To say I’m a hater pretending to be a fan is beyond ludacris. I’ve been a member of this site since before Wade even came forward with his allegations (longer than you have funnily enough) . I’ve been a fan of Michael since before I can remember. I used to sit in my classroom at school and be called Paedo lover and have stuff thrown at me during the ‘05 trial becasue I openly listened to and supported Michael.
I have not once said anything to indicate I believe Michael is guilty, only that the way I process these types of things in my head is that I cannot truly know the truth for sure (which is why I don’t agree with personal attacks on those involved, only using facts to show evidence of Michaels Innocence) but I still stand firm in my conviction that he is innocent.

I am going to take some time away from this site as it’s clearly not a supportive community unless you conform to the views and opinions of certain users who will insult and attack you for saying anything they don’t agree with.

You talk about false allegations. Do your research before accusing me, view my profile and my post history before saying I’m pretending to be a fan. You will find you couldn’t be more wrong. Take off the tin foil hat.
 
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AG5050;4254330 said:
This is ridiculous my post was not intended as a hostile discussion in the slightest. I posted becasue I am simply of the belief that fans constant rebuttals of LN is just prolonging it’s life span and I believe we should let it die which it will do.

To say I’m a hater pretending to be a fan is beyond ludacris. I’ve been a member of this site since before Wade even came forward with his allegations (longer than you have funnily enough) . I’ve been a fan of Michael since before I can remember. I used to sit in my classroom at school and be called Paedo lover and have stuff thrown at me during the ‘05 trial becasue I openly listened to and supported Michael.
I have not once said anything to indicate I believe Michael is guilty, only that the way I process these types of things in my head is that I cannot truly know the truth for sure (which is why I don’t agree with personal attacks on those involved, only using facts to show evidence of Michaels Innocence) but I still stand firm in my conviction that he is innocent.

I am going to take some time away from this site as it’s clearly not a supportive community unless you conform to the views and opinions of certain users who will insult and attack you for saying anything they don’t agree with.

You talk about false allegations. Do your research before accusing me, view my profile and my post history before saying I’m pretending to be a fan. You will find you couldn’t be more wrong. Take off the tin foil hat.
After the information about the train station fiasco became available to wider audience (and that's thanks to the fan's perseverance ONLY, as the media refused to write about it initially) there's an actual counter-attack by misleading articles and a blue tick brigade pretending to "suddenly just watched" LN. We experience this since the very beginning: even tough LN is basically a flop, media/social media continuously tries to maintain the hype. So no, it's definitely NOT the fans (and other individuals outraged by this scam BTW) who are prolonging it's life span.

I'm sorry you were called a "hater", you shouldn't have been.

You should notice though that similar judgmental comments came from both ways: treating others with different opinion like "cult-like blind worshippers" isn't nice or fair either, and you didn't seem to have a problem with that.

There's a lot of section on this forum, those who want to avoid the negativity and talk about the music can do it in the topics dedicated to MJ's art, those who want to follow the case can do it separately in a different section (and don't forget those who want to participate in both), so I don't even understand why there's this disagreement at all. And it certainly shouldn't be a reason to leave this place. :flowers:
 
After the information about the train station fiasco became available to wider audience (and that's thanks to the fan's perseverance ONLY, as the media refused to write about it initially) there's an actual counter-attack by misleading articles and a blue tick brigade pretending to "suddenly just watched" LN. We experience this since the very beginning: even tough LN is basically a flop, media/social media continuously tries to maintain the hype. So no, it's definitely NOT the fans (and other individuals outraged by this scam BTW) who are prolonging it's life span.

I'm sorry you were called a "hater", you shouldn't have been.

You should notice though that similar judgmental comments came from both ways: treating others with different opinion like "cult-like blind worshippers" isn't nice or fair either, and you didn't seem to have a problem with that.

There's a lot of section on this forum, those who want to avoid the negativity and talk about the music can do it in the topics dedicated to MJ's art, those who want to follow the case can do it separately in a different section (and don't forget those who want to participate in both), so I don't even understand why there's this disagreement at all. And it certainly shouldn't be a reason to leave this place. :flowers:
Thank you for this. I do genuinely appreciate input like this as it is rational and fair.

I take on board what you said about comments from the other way. I know I used the term 'crazed cult' in my OP but I had specified that was based on stuff I have seen on social media (which I stand by, I am deeply saddened by the way MJ fans appear as a whole on social media), I apologise if anyone had taken that to be aimed at members of MJJC because it certainly wasn't, but perhaps I could have made that clearer.

I don't disagree with the discussion that is being had on MJJC, I have posted frequently in the big thread about it myself, I was talking about all the social media activity on it, YouTube comments/videos etc. I will always stand firm in my belief that the fan community has given both Dan Reed & LN more promotion and attention that it deserves and would have gotten if we hadn't been so active about trying to debunk it. I know thats not a popular opinion and it was risky to post it on here. I started this topic firstly to vent, because this whole saga has taken its toll on me. And secondly I just wanted to voice my opinions and discuss it rationally with other members of the fan community, not be labelled a hater because I have an opinion that goes a bit against the grain of most of the fans.
The train station thing feels like a massive breakthrough for the fans, but in reality I feel that its not even nearly enough to make people who are convinced of Michaels guilt change their mind, it's why I think fans are fighting to achieve the impossible and the better approach is to just let this whole thing die as quickly as possible. Michaels legacy will survive this.

The only reason I put my time and energy into posting here is because I care. I care about Michael, his children, his family, us fans, his legacy. Regardless of what I believe or what comments I make or whether I have a more controversial outlook than other fans, that is the sole reason I am here and I simply won't stand for being labelled a hater.
 
Thank you for this. I do genuinely appreciate input like this as it is rational and fair.

I take on board what you said about comments from the other way. I know I used the term 'crazed cult' in my OP but I had specified that was based on stuff I have seen on social media (which I stand by, I am deeply saddened by the way MJ fans appear as a whole on social media), I apologise if anyone had taken that to be aimed at members of MJJC because it certainly wasn't, but perhaps I could have made that clearer.

I don't disagree with the discussion that is being had on MJJC, I have posted frequently in the big thread about it myself, I was talking about all the social media activity on it, YouTube comments/videos etc. I will always stand firm in my belief that the fan community has given both Dan Reed & LN more promotion and attention that it deserves and would have gotten if we hadn't been so active about trying to debunk it. I know thats not a popular opinion and it was risky to post it on here. I started this topic firstly to vent, because this whole saga has taken its toll on me. And secondly I just wanted to voice my opinions and discuss it rationally with other members of the fan community, not be labelled a hater because I have an opinion that goes a bit against the grain of most of the fans.
The train station thing feels like a massive breakthrough for the fans, but in reality I feel that its not even nearly enough to make people who are convinced of Michaels guilt change their mind, it's why I think fans are fighting to achieve the impossible and the better approach is to just let this whole thing die as quickly as possible. Michaels legacy will survive this.

The only reason I put my time and energy into posting here is because I care. I care about Michael, his children, his family, us fans, his legacy. Regardless of what I believe or what comments I make or whether I have a more controversial outlook than other fans, that is the sole reason I am here and I simply won't stand for being labelled a hater.
Wow, I'm very happy we could talk this through, thank you!

I had a very different impression about fans on social media: most of them came across quite clever and armed with facts, while anti-MJ people usually act ignorant and often resort to name-calling*. Sure, there must be some rude/childish fans as well, it's inevitable I'm afraid in every "community", but I don't think it's typical. I wish they would stop calling Reed egghead though, haha.

*Actually anti-MJ people's usual reaction is to call those who provide them with facts "blind followers" (which is so unfair and ironic even, as they are the ones who don't even brother to investigate the case, not even when it's before their eyes, but believe in propaganda), maybe that's why the strong reaction. Even I became emotional in my first response here which isn't typical from me, haha. I apologise if I offended anyone with it, I certainly didn't intend to, but English isn't my native language so maybe it came across otherwise.

I think the train station fiasco (or any contradition TBH) COULD be a turning point if only it got the proper platform and context (imagine what promotion LN had before/during the airings*: Oprah show, interviews where R&S&R could claim basically anything unchallenged - now imagine this with the other side!). I strongly think the main problem (like it was always since 93) is the lack of platform.

*And that's why I strongly disagree with the theory that fans generate more attention to LN: they have nothing to do with e.g. Oprah promoting this scam, while the other side of the story can be heard only in free youtube videos. The propaganda machine behind this is actually frightening and inexplicable.

Anyway, I'm glad you stay and I envy your optimism. ;)

And now: group hug! :D
 
Most MJ fans react very senitive when it comes to Michael because the difference between them and the most other fans of any star is that they don't only like the artist and like the art the LOVE Michael (less til very much) as a human being, what he stands for / repesented AND his art.
He has a huge influence on people and because they LOVE him he is a little or a big part of them and their life.
So everythig what insults him and hurt him will insult and hurt them and will often result in a passionate reaction.
This was always so before LN when I have read commts and reactions on youtube.
But you could always decided to not read the comments, reactions on your comments under MJ videos or simly decided to only commt in MJ related Fan groups or under videos were you can be sure that the uploader will have a look over the comments and will delate and block insulting respecless hater comments.
But with LN it is everything more intense cause when you have decided to get involved in this battle and want defending MJ you must read and endure the maaaaaaany insulting ignorant comments under the videos about LN what is very painful and hard when you do this every day.
Because of this many fans react more senitive then before on critizism.
It is a very difficult situation that fans also can't be authentic and need to hide as much as possible that they are an MJFan, their paasion and love for Michael cause then they know because of the press and Dan Reed propaganda they will apear as not credible blind fanatic and not be taken seriously when they appear as a Fan.
 
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It would seem no matter how much noise fans make, the mainstream media remains quiet about all the inconsistencies that have been brought up. Apart from when LN first aired, I really haven't heard much of anything from mainstream media. I don't think this blew up quite as big as people think. Not many people actually tuned into watch LN. As far as the mainstream media goes, with or without fans help, they remain silent, so they're just going to do what they're going to do. But now we have tabloids reporting facts due to what fans and a few journalists have found. Go figure. Hell froze over.
 
Arckangel;4253792 said:
AG5050 and magic, I agree that it's important to fact-check information we post and rectify errors. That said, from what I've seen, fans and supporters have mostly been posting factual information. Jermaine & Taj Jackson both conceded that Michael Jackson's fanbase is very well-versed in the sense that we do our research, we consult court documents, we know the details of each case, etc. A few mistakes on our part pale in comparison to the avalanche of half-truths and blatant lies printed in the media since even before the Chandler case.

Crazy cult? I don't think we need to worry about looking "crazy". You wanna see crazy? PM me and I'll link you to a Madonna fan forum where anybody that offers MJ the least support is called a pedophile apologist, not only by the members but by the mods as well! The thread is entitled 'Michael Jackson - Paedophile (Continued)' and reeks of craziness.

I was very respectful to all members, stated facts and provided sources. I was immediately cussed out of the forum (F*** O** PEDO APOLOGIST) and then suspended for one day, restricted from posting for four days, and I received a permanent warning point when I was not impolite nor disruptive in any way. The member that cussed at me was not punished at all, and a mod proceeded to call me an MJ pedophile apologist and wrote that all of us MJ supporters come across as unhinged lunatics. PM me, and I'll give you the link so you see the conversation for yourself!

Now, that's crazy! That's scary! lol I was like... "What a freak!" And then: "The mod is a freak too?!" They were calling Michael all sorts of names, saying he is evil to the core, wishing he rots in Hell (Heaven forbid!), describing the alleged abuse as described by ROBson & SafeCHECK (Michael anally raping them, masturbating to them, having them on all fours, etc.)... No discernment, just blindly believing all those allegations and all the tabloid junk they've read.


And such comments may be found elsewhere online, all sorts of disgusting and depraved comments. Now, I did refer to the Leaving Neverland stars as ROBson, SafeCHECK & Dan GREED, and I had a right to, just like they'd allow themselves to call MJ all sorts of insulting names. The same thing happened at another Madonna forum in year 2001. There was a thread entitled 'How Weird Is Michael Jackson'. They were all bashing him (and that was even before the Arvizo case). I politely joined the discussion and defended Michael only to be labelled a pedophile, a wack-job and to be told I needed to get shot in the head... Now, that's crazy! Especially since Madonna loves MJ and has always spoken nicely of him.

So no, I would not worry about us looking crazy. We have a right to be angry just like they feel their anger towards Michael and his defenders justified. If you want a text to look formal, you may refer to Michael Jackson as Jackson but referring to him as MJ or Michael will in no way make you look crazy!

Look... On some occasions, I'd defend MJ in a polite manner stating facts, and I'd be called a mega-fan or else when I was only a casual fan. Those types fail to do their research, their only research being them tabloids, but somehow, they feel more grounded in reality than those who actually did do their research and fully know those cases. Doesn't make much sense, does it?

They repeat the same lies (Michael settled the criminal case, it screams guilty, Jordan correctly described his private parts, child porn was found in his home, etc.), but call us crazy, obsessed or whatever when we present them with facts, court documents, and truthful articles. I would not take ANYTHING those types say personally. They may say anything they want, I don't care, nor should you. They are the crazy and the obsessed ones, obsessed with making of MJ a paedophile even though each case against him was thoroughly debunked and he was never found guilty in a court of law! MJ called them tabloid junkies for a reason.


Now, we're doing this work to salvage MJ's honour, help redeem his image and correct lies and half-truths that keep circulating, and that's commendable. Some of us may get angry, and that's totally commendable as well.

Follow SmoothEmJay #JusticeForMJ on Twitter. On some occasions, he'll "lose his patience" and tell it like is, and he's damn right to do so. Here's an example: https://twitter.com/roboemjay/status/1113574434433114115. He was damn right to put that tabloid in their place. People have shat all over MJ for decades, said the most vicious things about him, and if some fans choose to use the same language, then so be it.


I don't care about people thinking ill of us 'cause everything they say about us, we can say about them! No matter how polite and civilized we are, some haters will think ill of us anyway 'cause they've been brainwashed for 25 years to see MJ as a monstrous freak and child molester. One of those Madonna fans was like: "I pity them."—well, I pity them haters for they are pathetic!

If Madonna ever taught them one thing, it's to have the ability to think for themselves, and that's an ability they clearly lack. What's the point of joining a forum if all members must agree at 100% on everything? I'm not just referring to those fans but all them MJ haters online. And those celebrities that have recently bashed MJ are even more stupid in the sense they know better than anyone how the media (esp. the tabloid media) work, and they might be next! By giving false accusers so much credence, they are setting up their own downfall, and I applaud all those celebrities that stood up for Michael.


And I see no problem whatsoever with using the terms "mockumentary", "fraudumentary" or "those idiots" because that's the plain truth! It is NOT a documentary. A proper documentary is based on the truth, not lies and false allegations of child sex abuse, one of the most vicious crimes there is. People (incl. journalists) call MJ all sorts of names (incl. Sicko *****, etc.) so we should feel free to call them ROBson, SafeCHECK or whatever (depending on what's appropriate).

I feel no sympathy for them at all, and yes, we can be 100% sure Michael did NOT EVER commit child sex abuse just like all those tabloid junkies are 100% certain Michael did and keep fooling people into believing such calumny. Each single case against Michael was fully disproven, so we can be 100% sure he did not play w/ little boys' or teenagers' pee-pees or poop-holes as one hater put it. There is no logical reason to believe otherwise. And in the United States, according to the 5th, 6th and 14th amendments, one is innocent until proven guilty.

And since Michael passed away 10 years ago already, there will never ever be any evidence against him. The only evidence would be photos or videos, and photos and videos can be doctored (now more than ever before), and if such evidence existed, the FBI would have found it. Brace yourselves! Michael Jacobshagen said he has such videos in his possession, but he's lying, and if he has anything, it was faked!

Totally agree with post . Spot on !
 
Respectfully, this is a discussion forum and not everyone is going to have the exact same outlook, views and opinion as you do.

True, but it is a discussion forum for FANS of Michael Jackson....people who support him and admire him and wish to celebrate his legacy with other fans.
 
True, but it is a discussion forum for FANS of Michael Jackson....people who support him and admire him and wish to celebrate his legacy with other fans.
Agree 100%. Everyone in this thread including myself is a fan who supports Michael. There is room for different views and opinions within the fan community.
 
Agree 100%. Everyone in this thread including myself is a fan who supports Michael. There is room for different views and opinions within the fan community.

AG5050, I've sent you a PM
 
Honestly thanks to the fair bit of debunking we may as well just let it fade now. Things haven't changed from pre-Wade/Safechuck bullshit. Some people believe he was this monster while most just don't believe the claims. I don't believe them. Is it possible? Sure, yeah, why not? I HIGHLY doubt it though. I haven't come across anything that would make me believe he was a pedophile. And. anyway, the waters are just too murky just like they have always been. There is no way to definitely prove it didn't happen and there is no actual proof that it did so it's a wash. We are right back where we in 1995. I just want to know about future projects and the release of unreleased Michael content. I got my mom back on the fence. She believed the doc before I showed her the major problems with it. I've made friends think twice who were dismayed from the doc. Dan Reed comes across as an unreliable self-serving, greedy asshole. So I'm leaving it there.
 
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