If you only had one shot of making someone a fan...

[staywild23]

Ok, so here's the deal. In a few days I am traveling to visit my best friend for 9 days who I have only seen once since January (when I first became the wild'n out fan of MJ that I now so clearly am). Of course, she knows I'm crazy about him. But I've resisted sharing too much about him with her until I could do so in person.

It's like introducing a new love interest to friends and family, y'know? Or is that just me? I am overly invested in making her like him!! Anyway.

While visiting her, I really really want to expose her to what Michael is all about and she's told me she's happy to let me. She is very open-minded and supportive of me being into him, though she has brought up LN a couple of times to me and told me a couple days ago she is interested in watching it, which I discouraged. So that's another layer of this.

But to the greater point...

If you only had ONE shot of making someone a fan of Michael -- and by this I mean, make someone see his brilliance in an undeniable way -- what would you share with them and why?

I really want to make the most of this. It is very important to me that, if nothing else, the people in my life at the very least develop a great respect for Michael, even if they don't end up fans like me (though, frankly, I do not accept that anyone who spends time with anything 'Michael' will not inevitably become a fan of his...)

 

[zinniabooklover]

Ok, so here's the deal. In a few days I am traveling to visit my best friend for 9 days who I have only seen once since January (when I first became the wild'n out fan of MJ that I now so clearly am). Of course, she knows I'm crazy about him. But I've resisted sharing too much about him with her until I could do so in person.

It's like introducing a new love interest to friends and family, y'know? Or is that just me? I am overly invested in making her like him!! Anyway.

While visiting her, I really really want to expose her to what Michael is all about and she's told me she's happy to let me. She is very open-minded and supportive of me being into him, though she has brought up LN a couple of times to me and told me a couple days ago she is interested in watching it, which I discouraged. So that's another layer of this.

But to the greater point...

If you only had ONE shot of making someone a fan of Michael -- and by this I mean, make someone see his brilliance in an undeniable way -- what would you share with them and why?

I really want to make the most of this. It is very important to me that, if nothing else, the people in my life at the very least develop a great respect for Michael, even if they don't end up fans like me (though, frankly, I do not accept that anyone who spends time with anything 'Michael' will not inevitably become a fan of his...)

Er, ask us a tricky question, why don't you?

I'll need to think about this.

 

[kai]

While visiting her, I really really want to expose her to what Michael is all about and she's told me she's happy to let me. She is very open-minded and supportive of me being into him, though she has brought up LN a couple of times to me and told me a couple days ago she is interested in watching it, which I discouraged. So that's another layer of this.

step 1: tell your friend you will give her LN on a stick.
step 2: download "square one" documentary
step 3: rename the file to "leaving neverland"
step 4: put it on the stick
step 5. give it to your friend.

 

[staywild23]

step 1: tell your friend you will give her LN on a stick.
step 2: download "square one" documentary
step 3: rename the file to "leaving neverland"
step 4: put it on the stick
step 5. give it to your friend.

This is an excellent idea

 

[Hiker]

Its a terrible idea!

You can only tell her why you don't believe the movie, or what research you have done to convince you that its all fake. Though now that it has been pulled off netflix that should be easier.

For the original question - it depends on what she is into.

 

[staywild23]

Its a terrible idea!

Well I wasn't seriously going to

You can only tell her why you don't believe the movie, or what research you have done to convince you that its all fake. Though now that it has been pulled off netflix that should be easier.

It was never on Netflix in the US (that I'm aware of) but it's on HBO Max I believe which she watches a lot.

For the original question - it depends on what she is into.

Well, that's true. But I thought it would be fun for people to share what THEY would show someone. I can filter through and decide if it would work for my purposes with her lol.

But I imagine many people have others they'd like to introduce Michael too so I thought it would be a fun discussion for others too who might be in a similar boat.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Its a terrible idea!

You can only tell her why you don't believe the movie, or what research you have done to convince you that its all fake. Though now that it has been pulled off netflix that should be easier.

For the original question - it depends on what she is into.

This.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Well I wasn't seriously going to


It was never on Netflix in the US (that I'm aware of) but it's on HBO Max I believe which she watches a lot.


Well, that's true. But I thought it would be fun for people to share what THEY would show someone. I can filter through and decide if it would work for my purposes with her lol.

But I imagine many people have others they'd like to introduce Michael too so I thought it would be a fun discussion for others too who might be in a similar boat.

On reflection, I'm not sure I'd know how to approach this cos I can't imagine anyone I know not knowing who Michael is. It's a generational thing, obvs, and I find my imagination just isn't strong enough to make sense of this, iyswim.

I'm not being critical, I can understand that for certain generations who grew up with a very different narrative, it is weird. They might not really know who he is or they have only heard all the awful LN type of stuff. Either there is a big gap cos he's not really current in the same way that he was when I grew up or they have heard of him but it's all negative stuff.

But for me, of course, it's different. So I don't know how to answer the question. I think it's a great question, though.

Otoh, you have mentioned how big he is on TikTok. Is that her thing? Or Spotify? Apple Music? The musical just won a bunch of Tonys so that would be another angle you could go for. Plus, Madonna just went to see it. Doesn't matter if your friend is not into Madonna, it made a big splash in the media so the conversation could start there.

If I had to figure this out, I would go for the classic videos. For me, it's all about the dancing. I would cherry pick the best dance videos and start there.

 

[Hiker]

I was going to write more, but sent too fast. I can share two things -

What not to do - One of my best friends - who is not into music, dancing, fashion (why are we friends again ), and is very conservative. She grew up knowing Michael and probably bought into media stories. I wanted to show her the "perfection" which I thought she would appreciate as she is also quite a perfectionist like me. I sent her part of ITC video, the dancebreak at the end. She watched the whole and it totally put her off because it is too "sexual" . Then when she commented "yeah, you have to separate art from the artist", I was like no, but I was not prepared to address it properly, and I was still recovering from the whole "its too sexual" comment!! In retrospect, I should have known better than to send ITC to her, instead something different. But she is not into either music or dancing, she does not get nuances of dance steps or appreciates the power of voice. Hates pop culture, so it was a lost cause from the beginning

So maybe be prepared to answer why you believe in his innocence, especially if she is already curious about LN.

 

[LinLoveMJ]

Say: You wanna meet a genuine, sweet, genius, perfect gentelman?
Watch private home video's, for starters, and put on a concert, that will do it

 

[Hiker]

Say: You wanna meet a genuine, sweet, genius, perfect gentelman?
Watch private home video's, for starters, and put on a concert, that will do it

Good idea, start with home videos, interviews that most people would not have seen, and show the real Michael.

 

[zinniabooklover]

I was going to write more, but sent too fast. I can share two things -

What not to do - One of my best friends - who is not into music, dancing, fashion (why are we friends again ), and is very conservative. She grew up knowing Michael and probably bought into media stories. I wanted to show her the "perfection" which I thought she would appreciate as she is also quite a perfectionist like me. I sent her part of ITC video, the dancebreak at the end. She watched the whole and it totally put her off because it is too "sexual" . Then when she commented "yeah, you have to separate art from the artist", I was like no, but I was not prepared to address it properly, and I was still recovering from the whole "its too sexual" comment!! In retrospect, I should have known better than to send ITC to her, instead something different. But she is not into either music or dancing, she does not get nuances of dance steps or appreciates the power of voice. Hates pop culture, so it was a lost cause from the beginning

So maybe be prepared to answer why you believe in his innocence, especially if she is already curious about LN.

Not meaning to be argumentative but, ah, I would not start with ITC for someone who maybe doesn't know his work all that well. I'd go for Beat It, Thriller and SC for starters. They are very theatrical and filmic. Easy cultural references for people to pick up on. Easy shapes for someone to understand if dance is not their thing. Visually they are easy to understand. The staging is clear. The stories are clear.

I think ITC is maybe graduate level stuff, lol.

 

[Hiker]

I think ITC is maybe graduate level stuff, lol.

I know Silly me! It was just something I was watching and I sent it to her spur of the moment

 

[zinniabooklover]

I probably would include APOM video along with the dance videos I mentioned. But I would use the official version not the alternative HD version. The official version is a really good snapshot of Michael as a superstar.

 

[zinniabooklover]

I know Silly me! It was just something I was watching and I sent it to her spur of the moment

I think you got overexcited which is understandable. But ITC - and especially just a portion of it - for a 'beginner' is a stretch, lol.

Otoh, you did give her a massive insight into what's going on in your head so, that's kinda interesting.

 

[zinniabooklover]

I realise I'm focusing a lot on 1980's Michael. But that's no bad (ha!) thing in terms of showing her what it's all about. The videos plus a convo about the Broadway musical, I think that's how I'd do it.

 

[Hiker]

My points is to think about what THEY would like! If I had sent her APOM she would have discarded it as too noisy I later sent her some of the softer songs, and she was like ok, whatever.
I should have started her with Captain EO or something.

 

[zinniabooklover]

My points is to think about what THEY would like! If I had sent her APOM she would have discarded it as too noisy I later sent her some of the softer songs, and she was like ok, whatever.
I should have started her with Captain EO or something.

Oh, sorry, my APOM comment was for sw23 and her friend. Not that I know what she would like. I'm just speculating as to what I would show someone I knew if Michael was a mystery to them.

 

[staywild23]

On reflection, I'm not sure I'd know how to approach this cos I can't imagine anyone I know not knowing who Michael is. It's a generational thing, obvs, and I find my imagination just isn't strong enough to make sense of this, iyswim.

I'm not being critical, I can understand that for certain generations who grew up with a very different narrative, it is weird.

OH, well she is definitely familiar with Michael in a similar way that I was. I think she likely knows his major hits and definitely knows him, his various looks, etc. but has misconceptions about him from the media narratives in the 2000s especially. But honestly she is an extremely open-minded and kind-hearted person. She has asked me about LN because back when it came out she said she had listened to several podcasts that talked about it. But even given that she has been nothing but happily supportive of my love for him

Say: You wanna meet a genuine, sweet, genius, perfect gentelman?
Watch private home video's, for starters, and put on a concert, that will do it

aww that sounds very fun!! I am not sure if she will be interested enough to watch a full-length concert and the full length home videos, but maybe I can build her up to that haha!

What not to do - One of my best friends - who is not into music, dancing, fashion (why are we friends again ), and is very conservative.

OH yikes lol honestly whhhhhy??

I sent her part of ITC video, the dancebreak at the end. She watched the whole and it totally put her off because it is too "sexual" .

I genuinely find this hilarious because I recognize that ITC is the most, I guess, "overtly" sexual video but it's still just sensual. And it's not anything remotely scandalous. I am just shocked that anyone is so weird about sex that ITC is too much for them. But I am on the exact polar opposite end of the spectrum where nothing is too weird or sexual to me So I suppose we all have our difference in that realm.

Then when she commented "yeah, you have to separate art from the artist"

UGH NO. NO NO NO.

So maybe be prepared to answer why you believe in his innocence, especially if she is already curious about LN.

One of the challenges is that my whole research area and ethos as an academic is sexual violence and pro-MeToo stuff. So I think me not believing "victims" is more confusing and curious to her, than it is something she questions. So I do expect we will talk about this stuff. The challenge is to talk about it well, because so much of what has cancelled out my concerns about Michael is just understanding him more thoroughly. I know so much about him and I feel that the context of who he was and his life plays a huge role in why most fans see him as innocent (along with the fact that, you know, he was literally found not guilty )

 

[staywild23]

I realise I'm focusing a lot on 1980's Michael. But that's no bad (ha!) thing in terms of showing her what it's all about. The videos plus a convo about the Broadway musical, I think that's how I'd do it.

My points is to think about what THEY would like! If I had sent her APOM she would have discarded it as too noisy I later sent her some of the softer songs, and she was like ok, whatever.
I should have started her with Captain EO or something.

APOM is an excellent start for her, actually!! That's a great idea. It was the first performance that struck me as like OH DAMN, aside from Billie Jean which blew my mind. Did I ever tell you all that for the first like week or so of being into Michael ALL I watched were live performances of Billie Jean? Literally, nonstop, over and over. I was in fucking awe of him. I almost exclusively watched HWT and Dangerous performances too, which is why they were my favorite eras originally Little did I know Bad Michael was waiting in the wings to destroy my entire life lol.

I think focusing on 80s Michael is actually a great idea. I adore 90s Michael so much and think he deserves everything. But 80s Michael is so iconic, so adorable, so fun and sweet, very exciting. She already told me she thinks he was cute in the Thriller era too, so that's a good jumping off point

A few more things!

1) Re: my friend -- she is extremely similar to me in a lot of ways. She absolutely adores innocence, gentleness, cuteness, etc. but she is also super sexually free and comfortable with EVERYTHING (it's how we became friends, after all lol). I mean, I could show her one of the 'manhood' style compilation videos and she would be totally comfortable with it, even if she didn't personally "get" it. I don't want to throw her in the deep end, though lol.

2) I really would love from everyone (not just you two, but anyone reading lol) specific examples of favorite clips, performances, important songs, whatever. OR additional stories (like yours @Hiker ) about the 'dos" and don'ts.' It may not all apply to me and my friend, but I think it's cool to learn about what other fans value in exposing others to Michael.

 

[Hiker]

OH yikes lol honestly whhhhhy??

well, my love for Michael is new, she and I have been friends for 20+ years

I genuinely find this hilarious because I recognize that ITC is the most, I guess, "overtly" sexual video but it's still just sensual. And it's not anything remotely scandalous. I am just shocked that anyone is so weird about sex that ITC is too much for them. But I am on the exact polar opposite end of the spectrum where nothing is too weird or sexual to me So I suppose we all have our difference in that realm.

yeah, that's relative. In retrospect, in my world it is very scandalous, especially if you are not just laser focused on Michael, but looking at video as a whole.

 

[staywild23]

Oh, one more thing! I visited my mom the other night and she watched the entire Bad show at Wembley with me and then several interviews including 1987 Ebony Jet, Barbara Walters, the Thriller-era ET interview, and half of Oprah. Some of her observations of him:

"I never realized how intelligent he is."
"He is so interesting to listen to."
"He's such a gentle person."
"He has the most calming voice I've ever heard" (this was after kind of making fun of his voice prior to watching any interviews with me FYI -- forgive her for this, she knows not what she does lol)

But the biggest thing and what I loved the most is that she looked at me after the Ebony Jet and Barbara Walters interviews and said "he's the most fascinating person" and I was like "I KNOW! He's so amazing" and she was like, "well yeah, but mostly, it's just crazy...he's so sincere...I've never seen anyone like him before."

It made me really smile

 

[staywild23]

well, my love for Michael is new, she and I have been friends for 20+ years

Oh, I know! I was just kidding. I don't really expect the people in my life to really love Michael, I just want them to haha.

yeah, that's relative. In retrospect, in my world it is very scandalous, especially if you are not just laser focused on Michael, but looking at video as a whole.

definitely! And I didn't mean what I said in a bad way. It's just interesting to me how we all come from such different worlds but all bond over such a wonderful man

 

[zinniabooklover]

I genuinely find this hilarious because I recognize that ITC is the most, I guess, "overtly" sexual video but it's still just sensual. And it's not anything remotely scandalous. I am just shocked that anyone is so weird about sex that ITC is too much for them. But I am on the exact polar opposite end of the spectrum where nothing is too weird or sexual to me So I suppose we all have our difference in that realm.

I don't consider ITC remotely scandalous, lol. Not the least little bit. But as a piece of dance or as a piece of storytelling I don't think it is nearly as accessible as the 1980's stuff. And for someone not familiar with Michael's work seeing a short portion of ITC might not make so much sense. For Hiker's friend, if they saw (for example, I don't actually know which clip they saw) the bit where Michael swings himself between Naomi's open legs I can understand why that would be too much. There's no context for what they're seeing. So I do understand that.

One of the challenges is that my whole research area and ethos as an academic is sexual violence and pro-MeToo stuff. So I think me not believing "victims" is more confusing and curious to her, than it is something she questions.

That is the key thing, isn't it? It's why LN got so much traction.

Oh, one more thing! I visited my mom the other night and she watched the entire Bad show at Wembley with me and then several interviews including 1987 Ebony Jet, Barbara Walters, the Thriller-era ET interview, and half of Oprah. Some of her observations of him:

And this would have been my other suggestion, just show her a few short interviews. I wouldn't personally do a live show cos it's all so subjective, what a person does or doesn't like. If I wasn't going down the music video route I would show a selection of short interview vids.

Depending on where the person was re believing or not believing LN I would wanna show them the visit to the Russian orphanage and / or the visit to the Grevin Museum.

 

[Smooth72]

Only people that I ever hear talk about LN is on here. Most don’t know it even existed.

 

[mjfanboy27]

It's difficult to find people in my city of Germany because many still have prejudices about the allegations

 

[kai]

i was making jokes.. but i believe it never can be a terrible idea to show someone Square One instead of LN

 

[staywild23]

Only people that I ever hear talk about LN is on here. Most don’t know it even existed.

Yeah, exactly! I had never heard of it until this year when I became a fan. My friend listens to tons of podcasts though and many about film, so that's probably why. Still really surprised me because I tend to pay attention to pop culture more AND I have a research interest in sexual violence and still had not heard of it. So bizarre!

 

[Hiker]

Yeah, exactly! I had never heard of it until this year when I became a fan. My friend listens to tons of podcasts though and many about film, so that's probably why. Still really surprised me because I tend to pay attention to pop culture more AND I have a research interest in sexual violence and still had not heard of it. So bizarre!

LN started showing up in my suggestion list from YT very early on as soon as I started watching Michael related videos. So I would have heard of it even if I were a casual listener or not on the forum.
It has disappeared now though, so I guess YT learnt that I don't waste time on trash!

 

[staywild23]

LN started showing up in my suggestion list from YT very early on as soon as I started watching Michael related videos. So I would have heard of it even if I were a casual listener or not on the forum.
It has disappeared now though, so I guess YT learnt that I don't waste time on trash!

You know that's a good point! I kinda forgot about that, but the same happened to me too. It was only when I started listening to Michael that I heard about it, but it was really early on. Like first week or two of actually seeking out performances and stuff on YouTube. They did totally vanish though! I never see anything about it on there. So I suppose casual listeners who just stream his music could easily not know about it, but if you're looking to watch his performances Roy will find out real quick. Sad.