Infusion pumps and overdoses

RedMaryFlint

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Many things about Michael's death and Murray's actions have so far proved baffling. I was studying the police affidavits and the timeline of events in an effort to understand, when I noticed that it was after the medical scare on 6/21/09 that Murray changed the medication from weeks-long administration of propofol to eliminating it in favor of benzodiazepines. That indicated that Murray knew there was a problem, and suspected the propofol as the cause. Yet, two days later, he returned to administering the IV of propofol, and the worst happened. That night, by his own account, he first administered a series of benzodiazepines by the "IV push" technique -- inserting a syringe of medication into the IV line and slowly pushing the drug into the IV. But he must have used another method to administer the propofol consistently over the course of several hours, because otherwise Michael would have awakened due to the quick recovery time characteristic of propofol. A common way is through use of an infusion pump, which is a device that can be programmed to release a set amount of medication into an IV line. These devices aren't problem-free, however, particularly in inexperienced hands. I found the following two papers on line with a bit of searching:

http://www.anesthesia-analgesia.org/cgi/reprint/102/4/1154.pdf

This one describes an accidental overdose of anaesthetic in a hospital caused by a missing part of the infusion pump assembly, which caused the pump to falsely detect the syringe of the drug as smaller than it actually was. An alarm that was supposed to warn of incorrect syringe placement didn't go off. Apparently, a whole host of things can go wrong with infusion pumps, including using syringes not recommended by the infusion pump manufacturer, user error in pump setup, and no protection from free-flow of IV solutions. It also notes that using supplemental oxygen can disguise the fact that a patient has stopped breathing, whereas monitoring exhaled CO2 is a quicker way to detect it.

http://www.jointcommission.org/sentinelevents/sentineleventalert/sea_15.htm

This one is a study of accidents involving infusion pumps, which says that experts have found that the main problem is using pumps that don't protect against the free-flow of intravenous medication into the patient. Other similar problems occur when the wrong drug concentration is given or the wrong rate is set.

We know from the LA Coroner's statement that Michael died of acute propofol intoxication, exacerbated by benzodiazepines. The acute propofol poisoning is consistent with the most common problem occurring with the use of infusion pumps. Is it possible that Murray dismantled the IV and infusion pump setup after he was able to get Michael to sleep without propofol, thinking after the Father's Day incident that he would never use it again, then reassembled it improperly in the early hours of the 25th, flustered at his inability to get his patient to sleep? Could his use of an oximeter instead of monitoring exhaled CO2 have prevented him from realizing earlier that Michael had stopped breathing? Some of these devices have logs recording the circumstances of their use. Could the police yet discover from the log whether it was used improperly?
 
Yes; if this keeps up and I hope it does, we want have to do nothing all the information will come to us. All we have to do is sit back and read all the various Official and UnOffical Reports as Michael's Killers tell us EXACTLY how they Murdered him. Thank You RedMaryFlint very good information indeed.
 
Many things about Michael's death and Murray's actions have so far proved baffling. I was studying the police affidavits and the timeline of events in an effort to understand, when I noticed that it was after the medical scare on 6/21/09 that Murray changed the medication from weeks-long administration of propofol to eliminating it in favor of benzodiazepines. That indicated that Murray knew there was a problem, and suspected the propofol as the cause. Yet, two days later, he returned to administering the IV of propofol, and the worst happened. That night, by his own account, he first administered a series of benzodiazepines by the "IV push" technique -- inserting a syringe of medication into the IV line and slowly pushing the drug into the IV. But he must have used another method to administer the propofol consistently over the course of several hours, because otherwise Michael would have awakened due to the quick recovery time characteristic of propofol. A common way is through use of an infusion pump, which is a device that can be programmed to release a set amount of medication into an IV line. These devices aren't problem-free, however, particularly in inexperienced hands. I found the following two papers on line with a bit of searching:

http://www.anesthesia-analgesia.org/cgi/reprint/102/4/1154.pdf

This one describes an accidental overdose of anaesthetic in a hospital caused by a missing part of the infusion pump assembly, which caused the pump to falsely detect the syringe of the drug as smaller than it actually was. An alarm that was supposed to warn of incorrect syringe placement didn't go off. Apparently, a whole host of things can go wrong with infusion pumps, including using syringes not recommended by the infusion pump manufacturer, user error in pump setup, and no protection from free-flow of IV solutions. It also notes that using supplemental oxygen can disguise the fact that a patient has stopped breathing, whereas monitoring exhaled CO2 is a quicker way to detect it.

http://www.jointcommission.org/sentinelevents/sentineleventalert/sea_15.htm

This one is a study of accidents involving infusion pumps, which says that experts have found that the main problem is using pumps that don't protect against the free-flow of intravenous medication into the patient. Other similar problems occur when the wrong drug concentration is given or the wrong rate is set.

We know from the LA Coroner's statement that Michael died of acute propofol intoxication, exacerbated by benzodiazepines. The acute propofol poisoning is consistent with the most common problem occurring with the use of infusion pumps. Is it possible that Murray dismantled the IV and infusion pump setup after he was able to get Michael to sleep without propofol, thinking after the Father's Day incident that he would never use it again, then reassembled it improperly in the early hours of the 25th, flustered at his inability to get his patient to sleep? Could his use of an oximeter instead of monitoring exhaled CO2 have prevented him from realizing earlier that Michael had stopped breathing? Some of these devices have logs recording the circumstances of their use. Could the police yet discover from the log whether it was used improperly?

If Murray intended to keep Michael sedated for a longer period of time, it would make sense that he'd use a pump, because it's easier (especially if it's an adult patient because you need bigger amounts). However, even when we use that method, we usually still sometimes (most of the times) need to give a small bolus extra when we notice the patient is waking up. Sometimes we only use boluses, without a pump, and only give more Propofol when we notice the patient is waking up.

And yes, the pumps aren't problem free, like no machine is. First, because any kind of equipment can always malfunction and second because where there are humans working, errors can occur. The problems we have had with our pumps have usually been annoying alarms when there is no reason. It keeps alarming alarming even after you have checked and double-checked everything and done everything possible to see why it would give that alarm (usually we ask a fellow nurse to check it too if we can't figure out why it keeps alarming, because two pairs of eyes are always better than one). If we can't figure out why it keeps alarming, we usually change the machine and usually then the problem is solved and there are only valid alarms (like for example the drip is empty or there is air in the system, etc.). One problem we do have noticed with some pumps though is that if they have been set for a very low rate per hour...and someone forgets to open the i.v. line....it can take hours before the machine gives an alarm. That way the patient won't get an overdose....but won't get the drug you'd WANT them to get. And that can of course be a problem. Usually in that case it is annoying and uncomfortable for the patient but I'd say rarely really life-threatening, because no one would wait for HOURS in an emergency. And of course the biggest problem is someone setting a too high of a rate accidentally or forgetting to turn the rate down after a bolus. That's the most common mistake I've heard of. But we don't have pumps in use that would detect syringe size. Ours is for one size only so that way you only set the rate, not syringe size, which eliminates at least one error.

I didn't get what you meant with this part: "Is it possible that Murray dismantled the IV and infusion pump setup after he was able to get Michael to sleep without propofol, thinking after the Father's Day incident that he would never use it again, then reassembled it improperly in the early hours of the 25th". I didn't really get what you mean with dismantle/reassemble. :scratch:No doctor or nurse ever dismantles and then reaasembles an i.v. pump. :scratch::lol: I'm probably misunderstanding you on that one...:lol: You put the line in, set the rate and that's it. No "assembling" required.

And I think a pulse oximeter could have been enough IF he was sedating Michael for a short while. We use just a pulseoxi when we sedate kids with Propofol for around 40 minutes. If he was intending to completely knock MJ out then a proper monitoring like in an OR would have been needed. The bottom line is....he should have NOT used Propofol in a HOME....especially not ALONE. You ALWAYS need to be prepared for complications and if there is a complication you will NEED HELP. Plus you NEVER leave the patient's side even for a minute when you use Propofol. You do NOT leave the patient unattended for any kind of time period. And you should never rely on machines only. You always use your eyes as an extra "monitor". You keep an eye on the skin color (is it pale, rosy, blue, yellow, etc.), you keep an eye on the chest for breathing signs and if there are any signs of difficulties, etc., you keep an eye on the patient as a whole. Are they moving? Etc. We never ever rely on monitors alone. BUT, you never rely on your eyes alone either. There are so many things you need to do and that can go wrong, which is exactly why ONLY someone who has been TRAINED to use Propofol etc. should use it and should only use it in places where proper equipment and HELP is available IMMEDIATELY, should there be complications.

Oh, and one more thing. Murray supposedly trying to use "Michael setting a higher rate on the drip" as his defence. Won't work. 1. Because you do NOT give a patient Propofol and then leave. NEVER. So the only way Micahel could have THEORETICALLY set the rate himself was if he left Michael alone. Which already has him in deep trouble. 2. If Michael is getting Propofol already and Murray is away, how the hell is he going to set anything if he's sedated?:doh: First because he'll be sleeping and won't know what's happening around him and second he's not going to jump up all of the sudden and be able to push tiny buttons on some machine next to his bed. Have never seen our patients waking up all of the sudden and grabbing the pumps to set wrong rates. :doh: :lol: If you stop giving Propofol, the patients wake up fairly quickly. But it doesn't happen with a snap of your fingers within a couple of seconds. :doh: And they are sleepy and a bit disoriented first and not sitting up and chatting away like nothing had just happened RIGHT after waking up. :doh: NOTHING Murray has said so far makes sense. NOTHING. Except him admitting he gave MJ those drugs and left him alone. That makes sense considering the outcome. But there is no way he can get himself out of killing Michael. He didn't do ONE right thing in the whole process...:no:
 
I didn't get what you meant with this part: "Is it possible that Murray dismantled the IV and infusion pump setup after he was able to get Michael to sleep without propofol, thinking after the Father's Day incident that he would never use it again, then reassembled it improperly in the early hours of the 25th". I didn't really get what you mean with dismantle/reassemble. :scratch:No doctor or nurse ever dismantles and then reaasembles an i.v. pump. :scratch::lol: I'm probably misunderstanding you on that one...:lol: You put the line in, set the rate and that's it. No "assembling" required.
I said "the IV and infusion pump setup", but I seem to have created a mental picture of Murray dismantling the infusion pump down to its constituent nuts, bolts, and wires. :doh: The question was inspired in part by the first paper, where the medical team discovered a part missing from the pump, and in part from the observation that Murray was fine -- aside from the basic insanity of the whole thing -- for the 5-6 weeks he was administering the same dose nightly, and the disaster happened only after he started screwing with the dosage, abandoned the propofol, then went back to it. Did he mess up when he set it back up?

Oh, and one more thing. Murray supposedly trying to use "Michael setting a higher rate on the drip" as his defence. Won't work. 1. Because you do NOT give a patient Propofol and then leave. NEVER. So the only way Micahel could have THEORETICALLY set the rate himself was if he left Michael alone. Which already has him in deep trouble. 2. If Michael is getting Propofol already and Murray is away, how the hell is he going to set anything if he's sedated?:doh: First because he'll be sleeping and won't know what's happening around him and second he's not going to jump up all of the sudden and be able to push tiny buttons on some machine next to his bed. Have never seen our patients waking up all of the sudden and grabbing the pumps to set wrong rates. :doh: :lol: If you stop giving Propofol, the patients wake up fairly quickly. But it doesn't happen with a snap of your fingers within a couple of seconds. :doh: And they are sleepy and a bit disoriented first and not sitting up and chatting away like nothing had just happened RIGHT after waking up. :doh:
It's very hard to believe that Michael just happened to wake up during those two minutes that Murray said he was in the bathroom, changed the setting to give himself an overdose, then tidily lay back down so Murray didn't notice when he came back. I think it's more likely that Murray made a mistake. I was looking for what specifically might have gone wrong while Murray was babbling on his cell phone or whatever he was doing while he should have been paying attention.
 
You never leave a patient alone when they have had Propofol, and i would never believe that a patient can quickly wake up and administer more Propofol then quickly lay back down again - what a load of rubbish!!!!!!!
 
Im so happy we have experts on here who can explain all of this for us. I just really hope the law enforcement hone in on some of this stuff which sounds like for a medical professional it should be basic rules. I think if they do, the facts would be enough for a conviction of at least involuntary manslaughter beyond a reasonable doubt to stop MURRAY and any others every taking a life in this way again. Thanks for posting!
 
I think it's more likely that Murray made a mistake. I was looking for what specifically might have gone wrong while Murray was babbling on his cell phone or whatever he was doing while he should have been paying attention.

The phonecalls came after murray says he found Mj though, right?

Also, this may be OT so forgive me but does anyone remember one of murrays girlfriends coming out and saying that murray was on the phone to her at 12 and she 'heard' him find mj and start cpr. Im inclined to believe if that did happen it was staged. But anyway, does anyone know what happend to that story? It was around for like a day and never mentioned again.
 
It was TMZ on November 10th:

"Dr. Conrad Murray was on the phone with his girlfriend as Michael Jackson was dying ... sources connected to the case tell TMZ.

We've learned Dr. Murray was on a cell phone with his girlfriend from Houston between 12:03 and 12:13 PM on June 25, 2009 -- the day Jackson died.

Sources say the girlfriend told LAPD detectives about 5 minutes into the call, she heard Dr. Murray abruptly drop the phone and then heard him administer CPR. The girlfriend said there was no indication Dr. Murray knew anything was amiss before dropping the telephone."


Read more: http://www.tmz.com/tag/michaeljackson/page/4/#ixzz0ZokzOhOQ


The phonecalls came after murray says he found Mj though, right?

Also, this may be OT so forgive me but does anyone remember one of murrays girlfriends coming out and saying that murray was on the phone to her at 12 and she 'heard' him find mj and start cpr. Im inclined to believe if that did happen it was staged. But anyway, does anyone know what happend to that story? It was around for like a day and never mentioned again.
 
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