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Invincible Paradox. Chapter II: September 11...

Richard76

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22 years ago the world faced the most catastrophic accident in History... We all know, what happened.... I don't need to say that it's really sad... But in this thread, I would like to mention Michael's involvement in this Historical Moment. How it affected his life. Let's start with the most important fact, Michael could die on that day.... He was literally in the neighborhood building this day. He had to be in the World Trade Center, just in time it was destoyed.... But just because he overslept and because of his mother, he miraculously managed to avoid his death... I guess it was the luckiest moment in MJ life. But the most ironic thing in this story, that it appears Michael survived september 11 just because of his addiction. We all know, what Michael was going through during Invincible era... We all know his "drunky eyes", that most people find them scary... But just because his "drunky eyes", he survived. That's really interesting. Also, let's not forget about consiquences. First of all, due to September 11 Michael had to cancel his Invincible tour. Also, lots of promoting concerts for Invincible album were canceled too... That had an enormous affect on Invincible album sales.... Secondly, Michael made a few conerts for supporting people after this accident. He decided to write "What More Can I Give" song. ANd thirdly, I think this whole situation was a really bad sign for Invincible album. Becuase it was relesed in the wrong time... I think Michael should have waited and dalay the album release untill 2002... So it could be a better time to give a good promotion...

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The 9/11 terrorist attacks generally did not seem to have an effect on his plans regarding the 'Invincible' album and promotion because:

Michael Jackson had already told Sony's top executives in early/mid 2001 that he decided to leave the record company.

Also, it was never confirmed that he was planning to support the 'Invincible' album with a world tour.

But these attacks affected the album in the sense that they led to the release of the 'Cry' single in December (2001), because that decision had to do with the fact that the song's social theme was very relevant to what was happening to the world at that time due to these attacks.
 
mj_frenzy said:
The 9/11 terrorist attacks generally did not seem to have an effect on his plans regarding the 'Invincible' album and promotion because:

Michael Jackson had already told Sony's top executives in early/mid 2001 that he decided to leave the record company.

Also, it was never confirmed that he was planning to support the 'Invincible' album with a world tour.

But these attacks affected the album in the sense that they led to the release of the 'Cry' single in December (2001), because that decision had to do with the fact that the song's social theme was very relevant to what was happening to the world at that time due to these attacks.
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But he supported his every album... Why would he just denied to tour without any reasons... I thought the reason was 9/11
 
Richard76 said:
But he supported his every album... Why would he just denied to tour without any reasons... I thought the reason was 9/11
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Michael Jackson did not want to tour for the 'Invincible' album mainly because of his serious health issues at that time.

Here is what he said to the American record producer Cory Rooney (during the 'Invincible' album sessions):

"Cory, I can't tour anymore. I'm not gonna tour anymore. Ok?’ Because it will kill me … Well, remember when I was preparing for my [HBO One Night Only] concert and I passed out at the Sony Studio? Well, it's because when I get ready for a tour I get dehydrated. I don't eat. I don't drink. I don't sleep. I put so much of myself into preparing for a tour … This is just something I don't think about anymore. You understand? They made me walk around with an IV [Intravenous Therapy] last time. So I just decided, my doctors decided that maybe you shouldn't do this anymore" (Michael Jackson)

It is clear that Michael Jackson did not want to undergo the same ordeals that he underwent during his previous tours.

For example, during the HIStory Tour he managed to sleep with the help of the anesthetic Propofol that was injected to him (in the various hotel suites where he was staying for his concerts), or during the Dangerous Tour when food and water were given to him intravenously.
 
mj_frenzy said:
Michael Jackson did not want to tour for the 'Invincible' album mainly because of his serious health issues at that time.

Here is what he said to the American record producer Cory Rooney (during the 'Invincible' album sessions):

"Cory, I can't tour anymore. I'm not gonna tour anymore. Ok?’ Because it will kill me … Well, remember when I was preparing for my [HBO One Night Only] concert and I passed out at the Sony Studio? Well, it's because when I get ready for a tour I get dehydrated. I don't eat. I don't drink. I don't sleep. I put so much of myself into preparing for a tour … This is just something I don't think about anymore. You understand? They made me walk around with an IV [Intravenous Therapy] last time. So I just decided, my doctors decided that maybe you shouldn't do this anymore" (Michael Jackson)

It is clear that Michael Jackson did not want to undergo the same ordeals that he underwent during his previous tours.

For example, during the HIStory Tour he managed to sleep with the help of the anesthetic Propofol that was injected to him (in the various hotel suites where he was staying for his concerts), or during the Dangerous Tour when food and water were given to him intravenously.
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i wish whoever introduced propofol to michael was sent to jail it shouldnt have never gone that road
 
8701girl said:
i wish whoever introduced propofol to michael was sent to jail it shouldnt have never gone that road
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Well “whoever” ADMINISTERED propofol DID get sent to jail albeit for a short time in comparison to the crime committed.
 
8701girl said:
i wish whoever introduced propofol to michael was sent to jail it shouldnt have never gone that road
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It's what cost him his life ultimately.

For someone to be that desperate to sleep and to go to such extreme measures is terrifying.

I partially blame Michael himself for his death. He would have known the risks , to put himself in that position in the first place , no regard for his children etc

He had obviously been taking it for a a long time to be that comfortable with it, it's crazy to think that this was possibly administered in any random hotel room or a home.

A hospital setting is the only place it should have been used. To think MJ was using it as though it was a sleeping tablet.
 
Blues_Away2023 said:
It's what cost him his life ultimately.

For someone to be that desperate to sleep and to go to such extreme measures is terrifying.

I partially blame Michael himself for his death. He would have known the risks , to put himself in that position in the first place , no regard for his children etc

He had obviously been taking it for a a long time to be that comfortable with it, it's crazy to think that this was possibly administered in any random hotel room or a home.

A hospital setting is the only place it should have been used. To think MJ was using it as though it was a sleeping tablet.
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i completely agree it both michael and rthe doctor's fault
 
Bogdan said:
Well “whoever” ADMINISTERED propofol DID get sent to jail albeit for a short time in comparison to the crime committed.
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im not talking bout murray im talking bout the actual first doctor that suggested propofol to michael when he first started having sleeping problems
 
8701girl said:
im not talking bout murray im talking bout the actual first doctor that suggested propofol to michael when he first started having sleeping problems
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I was under the impression that it was Arnold Kline (sp?) from the dermatology clinic where MJ met Debbie who initially prescribed him propofol? I could be wrong though. Memory is getting hazy.
 
8701girl said:
im not talking bout murray im talking bout the actual first doctor that suggested propofol to michael when he first started having sleeping problems
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As far as I know, Mike started taking propofol after injury accidents... It was okay in the beginning.... but he definately should have refused to take them after reabilitation....If during Bad era he completely got rid of this addiction, he would be alive today...But he continued use him after bad era... But I'm not judging him! Many famous artists took cocaine, marihuana, heroin and so on... But Michael didn't fall in that! He did the best he can do to avoid it! He kept healthy life style (or at least tried). And i respect him for that
 
Richard76 said:
As far as I know, Mike started taking propofol after injury accidents... It was okay in the beginning.... but he definately should have refused to take them after reabilitation....If during Bad era he completely got rid of this addiction, he would be alive today...But he continued use him after bad era... But I'm not judging him! Many famous artists took cocaine, marihuana, heroin and so on... But Michael didn't fall in that! He did the best he can do to avoid it! He kept healthy life style (or at least tried). And i respect him for that
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i respect michael for doing his best not getting into drugs but propofol is too dangerous
 
If we're gonna talk about this again and again.

Michael Jackson first used Propofol in a medical setting in 1991 per his own private investigator, Scott Ross. This medication gained popularity during that time for day surgeries i.e. a surgery performed without a hospital stay.

**Dr. Neil Ratner** is the anesthesiologist who came up with this unsafe idea of sedating MJ with Propofol for rest in preparation for performances in **November/December of 1995** for the HBO special that never happened. **Dr. Neil Ratner** is the one who set the Propofol ball in motion. So you were very close in your guess of 1996.

From that time forward - MJ routinely used this drug to prep for performances. Dr. Ratner himself medicated MJ with Propofol many many times for performances all the way through the end of 2001. Dr. Ratner also met the two anesthesiologists who were sedating MJ for the History Tour. They met because MJ wanted Dr. Ratner to knock him out like they did. When Dr. Ratner questioned what medications the team used - they wouldn’t divulge it. Trust it was something hard in addition to Propofol. Dr. Ratner had discussions in 2001 before the 30th Anniversary shows with MJ that Propofol was only a quick fix he suggested at the time back in 1995 but was *not meant to be a longterm
treatment for insomnia*. Ratner did medicate him
with Propofol the night before each of the shows - promising it was the last time, but the true last time Dr. Ratner gave MJ Propofol was for the 9/11 show. When Dr. Ratner refused to administer Propofol any longer, he never heard from MJ again - after years of friendship.

If you want the details - Dr. Ratner published a book. https://www.amazon.com/dp/1732379017/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm_3C2R0M9WSR6M5Q9AHPS9 It is more than just a list of times Dr. Ratner medicated MJ - he writes about his friendship/experiences with him as well as many other things that happened in his own life.
 
You said, that Michael used propofol only from 1991. But he also used medication during Thriller - Bad era.
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
If we're gonna talk about this again and again.

Michael Jackson first used Propofol in a medical setting in 1991 per his own private investigator, Scott Ross. This medication gained popularity during that time for day surgeries i.e. a surgery performed without a hospital stay.

**Dr. Neil Ratner** is the anesthesiologist who came up with this unsafe idea of sedating MJ with Propofol for rest in preparation for performances in **November/December of 1995** for the HBO special that never happened. **Dr. Neil Ratner** is the one who set the Propofol ball in motion. So you were very close in your guess of 1996.

From that time forward - MJ routinely used this drug to prep for performances. Dr. Ratner himself medicated MJ with Propofol many many times for performances all the way through the end of 2001. Dr. Ratner also met the two anesthesiologists who were sedating MJ for the History Tour. They met because MJ wanted Dr. Ratner to knock him out like they did. When Dr. Ratner questioned what medications the team used - they wouldn’t divulge it. Trust it was something hard in addition to Propofol. Dr. Ratner had discussions in 2001 before the 30th Anniversary shows with MJ that Propofol was only a quick fix he suggested at the time back in 1995 but was *not meant to be a longterm
treatment for insomnia*. Ratner did medicate him
with Propofol the night before each of the shows - promising it was the last time, but the true last time Dr. Ratner gave MJ Propofol was for the 9/11 show. When Dr. Ratner refused to administer Propofol any longer, he never heard from MJ again - after years of friendship.

If you want the details - Dr. Ratner published a book. https://www.amazon.com/dp/1732379017/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm_3C2R0M9WSR6M5Q9AHPS9 It is more than just a list of times Dr. Ratner medicated MJ - he writes about his friendship/experiences with him as well as many other things that happened in his own life.
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It wouldn't surprise me if this all stems from the aftermath of the 93 case. It changed everything. The strain put on him was enough to make any person mentally ill.

Before 93 we know he had issues with pain meds which started after the Pepsi incident anyway and then throw in the allegations,

You know what, at times I'm surprised he even made it to 50.
 
Richard76 said:
As far as I know, Mike started taking propofol after injury accidents... It was okay in the beginning.... but he definately should have refused to take them after reabilitation....If during Bad era he completely got rid of this addiction, he would be alive today...But he continued use him after bad era... But I'm not judging him! Many famous artists took cocaine, marihuana, heroin and so on... But Michael didn't fall in that! He did the best he can do to avoid it! He kept healthy life style (or at least tried). And i respect him for that
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It was never ok :( ANY doctor that administered that to him FAILED him.
 
Blues_Away2023 said:
It wouldn't surprise me if this all stems from the aftermath of the 93 case. It changed everything. The strain put on him was enough to make any person mentally ill.

Before 93 we know he had issues with pain meds which started after the Pepsi incident anyway and then throw in the allegations,

You know what, at times I'm surprised he even made it to 50.
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The Pepsi burn worsened everything. Stress of a physical nature exacerbates Vitiligo, lupus, all of these conditions MJ has. He had to stay out the sun as well anyway. No melanin anymore, remember.
 
Richard76 said:
You said, that Michael used propofol only from 1991. But he also used medication during Thriller - Bad era.
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Propofol was not approved by the FDA until 1989. It wasn't even generally available before then. More misinformation being spread like fire.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Source?
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Prior to leaving the Jackson 5 in 1984, Jackson and the other members of the group filmed a Pepsi commercial. During a simulated concert, pyrotechnics accidentally set Jackson’s hair on fire, causing second-degree burns to his scalp. To help him with the pain from the severe burns and the reconstructive surgeries that followed, Jackson’s doctors prescribed opioids.

Later, Jackson would attribute the fire to the beginning of his experience with drug addiction. In one statement, he said, “I remain out of the country. I have been undergoing treatment for dependency on pain medication. This medication was initially prescribed to soothe the excruciating pain that I was suffering after recent reconstructive surgery on my scalp.”
 
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