Michael - The Great Album Debate

[KingMikeJ]

Ivy - for someone who is "not invested" in this topic, you seem to spend an awful lot of time in here dissecting what people say. You're right - I don't understand an opposite opinion on this topic and there is a good reason for that but it isn't really your business so I'm not bringing it up here. Listen to Burn 2Nite, then come back and tell us you still believe it is Michael.

If ivy listens to Burn Tonight and decides that it is not Michael at all, that won't make her hear something else on the other Cascio tracks.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I never said it was your campaign



fine but they will stay as a small group then.



again then it will stay a small campaign



let's clarify something accusing someone of a crime isn't free speech it's defamation. so yeah they can get stuff removed on that basis, if they want they can even file lawsuits. if you want to roll the dice, fine. most logical people wouldn't expose themselves to such things. for example I wouldn't make criminal accusations.



in business the logic is cost benefit analysis or the concept of value. you look to pros and cons. do I want to hear Michael? yeah. do I enjoy the songs? well at least monster. do I feel does it worth it to release it? nope. even though they might be real, I personally think due to all the controversy and the division they create among the fans it's not worth it. so just on that basis I can sign a petition. it wouldn't be based on real versus fake side of it, it will be based on less controversy more harmony.



it's called empathy. I'm willing to let go of something to find a middle ground so that we can all live happily ever after. I guess it shouldn't surprise me that it doesn't make sense to you as you can't seem to understand or respect an opposite opinion or value those people.



fyi - the common ground people didn't say no more mj releases - so none of your examples would be a part of it. I said I would sign a "no cascio song" petition if it was more general (such as simply due to the controversy) and not specific (100% malachi) and didn't have criminal allegations part (fake /fraud) to it.

We've been through this before trying to ally non-believers and beievers. Not a single believer was interested whatsoever.

 

[StellaJackson]

If ivy listens to Burn Tonight and decides that it is not Michael at all, that won't make her hear something else on the other Cascio tracks.

It's blatantly obvious that it is the same person on both. And if they had several genuine tracks, why would they make one fake one? Follows no logic whatsoever. You've already been corrected on this by someone else a number of pages back.

 

[KingMikeJ]

It's blatantly obvious that it is the same person on both. And if they had several genuine tracks, why would they make one fake one? Follows no logic whatsoever. You've already been corrected on this by someone else a number of pages back.

If Burn Tonight doesn't sound like Michael to ivy (by the way, this is an if), I doubt that will make the other Cascio songs sound less like Michael.

 

[StellaJackson]

If Burn Tonight doesn't sound like Michael to ivy (by the way, this is an if), I doubt that will make the other Cascio songs sound less like Michael.

But logic would dictate they are all the same person, which everyone else believes also, bar yourself.

 

[Grent]

But logic would dictate they are all the same person, which everyone else believes also, bar yourself.

And since she seems to be a very logic driven person, she then might indeed face a conflict.
She, however, decides to not face the possibility of such a conflict.

 

[KingMikeJ]

But logic would dictate they are all the same person, which everyone else believes also, bar yourself.

You don't know that. Most people with my opinion don't even bother coming to this thread and want nothing to do with it because they think the accusation is ridiculous.

 

[love is magical]

You don't know that. Most people with my opinion don't even bother coming to this thread and want nothing to do with it because they think the accusation is ridiculous.

I guess it's natural that people stop talking about the album Michael. Even I have to admit we pretty much exhausted everything related to the tracks. Without new leaks or new evidence, we are pretty much beating the deadhorse repeatedly.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

You don't know that. Most people with my opinion don't even bother coming to this thread and want nothing to do with it because they think the accusation is ridiculous.

That's why I said that it seems illogical for believers to sign any kind of petition aiming to exclude the Cascio songs. Very few might be interested in order to avoid the controversy, but the majority of believers does not care about the controversy, hence they won't ever sign any kind of petition.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I guess it's natural that people stop talking about the album Michael. Even I have to admit we pretty much exhausted everything related to the tracks. Without new leaks or new evidence, we are pretty much beating the deadhorse repeatedly.

From the very start I've felt those songs were fabricated though. Some sounds are extremely disturbing. The most disturbing is when the singer says "VICTIM" in Soldier Boy. It sounds so pasted and so out of tune.

 

[love is magical]

That's why I said that it seems illogical for believers to sign any kind of petition aiming to exclude the Cascio songs. Very few might be interested in order to avoid the controversy, but the majority of believers does not care about the controversy, hence they won't ever sign any kind of petition.

You do have a point. I have seen some people said somthing like "I don't care who sings Monster. I just want to get Moster to #1, so MJ can top the chart again." There are people who value the instant gratification of having "new" music more so than upholding Michael's artistic integrity. The fact is there are people who would rather eat a bowl of soup with lots of hair than no soup. I think I have underestimated the challenge of finding a common ground.

 

[ivy]

Ivy - for someone who is "not invested" in this topic, you seem to spend an awful lot of time in here dissecting what people say. You're right - I don't understand an opposite opinion on this topic and there is a good reason for that but it isn't really your business so I'm not bringing it up here. Listen to Burn 2Nite, then come back and tell us you still believe it is Michael.

what do you consider as an "awful lot of time"? I came here once a day to post 1-2 message a day which does not even include the song discussion. I don't see that as an "awful lot of time" because I work 8 hours a day, spend time with my bf, do housework, surf internet, hang around twitter, actively post and work on the case section. so only time I spent on this thread averages like 5-10 minutes a day. and to me that's nothing and definitely not "awful lot of time". and I can clearly and openly tell you that I'm far more invested in the Conrad Murray trial rather than this topic.

It's blatantly obvious that it is the same person on both. And if they had several genuine tracks, why would they make one fake one? Follows no logic whatsoever. You've already been corrected on this by someone else a number of pages back.

actually when we talked about the testing and error rates if you combine real with fake you are more likely to fool the tests/experts and general people and more songs means more money. again actually there might be a logic if you can approach with an open mind.

If Burn Tonight doesn't sound like Michael to ivy (by the way, this is an if), I doubt that will make the other Cascio songs sound less like Michael.

But logic would dictate they are all the same person, which everyone else believes also, bar yourself.

And since she seems to be a very logic driven person, she then might indeed face a conflict.
She, however, decides to not face the possibility of such a conflict.

actually if you ever read my opinions, you'll realize that I always said that my opinion was Michael mixed with someone else. I believe Michael's vocals to be present in those songs but I also believe them to be "supported" with other vocals. I also said that I believe those vocals to be credited (both based on the statement and the paula abdul example) and that I don't believe Jason Malachi having the ability and technique to do these delivery. I even wrote that I'm more likely to believe another imposter than jason malachi.

So as I never believed them to be "100% Michael" and openly acknowledged supporting vocals and multiple techniques , not hearing Michael on some parts wouldn't sway my opinion. I'm that in the middle group of people that asks "yes there's Michael on those songs but how much". That's why I was ever interested and participated in this discussion. If I believed them to be "100% Michael I bet my life on it" I would never ever be bothered to even read here.

 

[Lucilla]

If that petition is going to be useful, I think it's for the best that we can find common ground.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

what do you consider as an "awful lot of time"? I came here once a day to post 1-2 message a day which does not even include the song discussion. I don't see that as an "awful lot of time" because I work 8 hours a day, spend time with my bf, do housework, surf internet, hang around twitter, actively post and work on the case section. so only time I spent on this thread averages like 5-10 minutes a day. and to me that's nothing and definitely not "awful lot of time". and I can clearly and openly tell you that I'm far more invested in the Conrad Murray trial rather than this topic.



actually when we talked about the testing and error rates if you combine real with fake you are more likely to fool the tests/experts and general people and more songs means more money. again actually there might be a logic if you can approach with an open mind.







actually if you ever read my opinions, you'll realize that I always said that my opinion was Michael mixed with someone else. I believe Michael's vocals to be present in those songs but I also believe them to be "supported" with other vocals. I also said that I believe those vocals to be credited (both based on the statement and the paula abdul example) and that I don't believe Jason Malachi having the ability and technique to do these delivery. I even wrote that I'm more likely to believe another imposter than jason malachi.

So as I never believed them to be "100% Michael" and openly acknowledged supporting vocals and multiple techniques , not hearing Michael on some parts wouldn't sway my opinion. I'm that in the middle group of people that asks "yes there's Michael on those songs but how much". That's why I was ever interested and participated in this discussion. If I believed them to be "100% Michael I bet my life on it" I would never ever be bothered to even read here.

The voice that you label as a supporting vocal to Michael's is not the controversy here. The voice that is supposed to sound as Michael's is the one that is in the center of the debate. So, no matter how you turn it, the controversy about those vocals that believers say it's Michael's, the doubters claim it is the impostor's is inevitable. The point is, you hear Michael, the doubters don't.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

If that petition is going to be useful, I think it's for the best that we can find common ground.

Believe me, we tried, but only doubters had joined. So we dropped it as the division is not a good thing to be clearly heard.

 

[StellaJackson]

The voice that you label as a supporting vocal to Michael's is not the controversy here. The voice that is supposed to sound as Michael's is the one that is in the center of the debate. So, no matter how you turn it, the controversy about those vocals that believers say it's Michael's, the doubters claim it is the impostor's is inevitable. The point is, you hear Michael, the doubters don't.

Agreed. I think we can all agree that there are supporting vocals by Porte, but they are not the problem. The only Michael that is present is in the parts where he is pasted on from previous records. That's what has confused and fooled so many people. They are not able to differentiate between the two. If we have to give Cascio etc any credit, then they did in fact, make a good job of fooling a lot of people. Unfortunately there is just too much Jason in there. And while he clearly tried to sound as much like Michael as he could, he couldn't quite pull it off. The snort in Breaking News for example. Identical to the snort in Critical. The vibrato, pronounciation all of it. Processing is nothing more than an excuse. There is no processing technique that, while tidying vocals up, would create those vocal aspects as a by product. It's simply an excuse intended to fool people under the presumption that many, as we have seen, simply don't understand what so called processing actually does to vocals. Right from the day Breaking News premiered, we all, as Michael's fans, have been treated like complete idiots. It's insulting.

 

[Frankyboy5]

what I find ridiculous is Cascios still removing tracks. I uploaded a clip meant to be humorous, it was Vitas doing a four corner moonwalk to the ending of Breaking News. In the concert he performed with girls playing violin so I thought it would fit.

I stated it was my OPINION that I think the songs were fake... And I get my video removed for stating an OPINION. The audio was only a very small section and should qualify as fair use. Even worse, the video was stuck at 0% published, which to me suggests that they were taking forever to get Cascios to check for Content ID before publishing it. This is BREAKING NEWS, this is BREAKING NEWS, not some unreleased track. I consider it not only a suppression of my free speech, but also as an invasion of my privacy.

There's still many Cascio songs on YouTube which aren't removed, regardless of if the uploader changed their pitches. I wonder how they got away with it.

 

[StellaJackson]

They only remove stuff if the uploader dares to express his or her opinion that the songs are fake. They are cowards.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

When I first heard the Cascio tracks, as I already explained I am extremely sensitive to the voice on the fast songs, I just couldn't hear Michael. I already stated that I could be more easily fooled by slower songs because I actually realized I never paid attention to some specific details such as the vibrato.

So, I wanted to do a little test with people who are not fans, but who know Michael's voice reasonably well.

Before I played some songs, my aim was not to influence or mislead people, I just said that in some songs (without saying which ones) I could not hear Michael. So I randomly played few Jason's and few Michael's and few Cascio songs and asked them to help me out and tell me where THEY hear Michael.

So I first played some Michael unreleased songs and some Jason's released songs. The result was a catastrophy. People clearly could not distinguish Jason's voice from Michael's. This proved to me that the general public could easily be fooled by Jason whether we like it or not.

After that I played the Cascio songs and asked them who was the singer. Their response was the same as ours within the MJ fan base: they were unable to tell if they heard Michael or someone else. However, there was one striking detail. People who listened to Stay (Carry On) told me that the vibrato was extremely disturbing and that they never ever heard Michael doing such a vibrato in any song they knew.

I just want to point out that I never ever mentioned vibrato to people as I myself was not focused that much on that particular aspect of the songs.

Now, this whole thing leads me to believe that there is at least one certain thing, the vibrato as a matter of fact is not Michael's natural one. If any of the fans can compare the vibrato from Stay (Carry On) with any other Michael's song I'd be glad to hear that. So is there any theory or explanation why the vibrato is so strikingly different to such a point that people frown their eyebrows when they hear it - even the non-fans?

 

[dam2040]

Bumper,your right. Why would believers sign petitions about the tracks when they are 'real'. No one doesn't want Blue Gangsta or anything else released,everyone knows instantly its MJ. No debate, or anything. Yet,with these tracks there's debates,petitions,groups and whatever else to stop these from being released. Strange.

 

[Pentum]

The songs are fake:

The songs are not fake:

There are no songs:

You fail at life:

 

[Arklove]

So I first played some Michael unreleased songs and some Jason's released songs. The result was a catastrophy. People clearly could not distinguish Jason's voice from Michael's. This proved to me that the general public could easily be fooled by Jason whether we like it or not.

After that I played the Cascio songs and asked them who was the singer. Their response was the same as ours within the MJ fan base: they were unable to tell if they heard Michael or someone else. However, there was one striking detail. People who listened to Stay (Carry On) told me that the vibrato was extremely disturbing and that they never ever heard Michael doing such a vibrato in any song they knew.

Now, this whole thing leads me to believe that there is at least one certain thing, the vibrato as a matter of fact is not Michael's natural one. If any of the fans can compare the vibrato from Stay (Carry On) with any other Michael's song I'd be glad to hear that. So is there any theory or explanation why the vibrato is so strikingly different to such a point that people frown their eyebrows when they hear it - even the non-fans?

That's why it was so easy for them to get away with this - the general public is the target audience...NOT the fans...If the fans were the target population, then the tracks would have been pulled as a result of the reaction of Breaking News. Then we receive a vague statement simply to placate us..And it worked for some. They knew the general public wouldn't notice and likely would think that the fans protesting the vocals are nuts and conspiracy-driven. As long as the album sold respectfully, then they can still make money in the future if they dare do this again. After all, they paid good money for the tracks.

Also, FANS were fooled by Jason's voice back in 2007, so if they can fool fans and general public alike, then that's even better! Bonus points for the fact that Michael isn't here this time around to dispute that!

I know believers have mentioned that they agree the vibrato is quite disturbing. No one has been able to find a genuine MJ song that features this same vibrato. Some people say it's not enough to convince them that it's not Michael's voice. Well, what would it take then? There is also different pronunciation, accent and style of singing, including snorts that are identical to Jason's snorts. Where are Michael's snorts? Has anyone ever heard him do that? I don't believe they'd leave them in there, if they put THAT much effort into the copy/pasted adlibs, copy/pasted word for word, breaths, grunts, and other various fabrications...

Has anyone processed Michael's real vibrato to the point that it sounds like it does on the Cascio tracks? That would be interesting to hear...I'd expect it to sound like Michael's vibrato - but processed...I wouldn't expect it to sound EXACTLY like a known imposter's unprocessed vibrato. This is where I don't understand believers' point of view.

Then again, do we even know what type of 'processing' was done on the Cascio tracks? Cuz that seems to be the resounding excuse as to why his voice sounds so different lol

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

That's why it was so easy for them to get away with this - the general public is the target audience...NOT the fans...If the fans were the target population, then the tracks would have been pulled as a result of the reaction of Breaking News. Then we receive a vague statement simply to placate us..And it worked for some. They knew the general public wouldn't notice and likely would think that the fans protesting the vocals are nuts and conspiracy-driven. As long as the album sold respectfully, then they can still make money in the future if they dare do this again. After all, they paid good money for the tracks.

Also, FANS were fooled by Jason's voice back in 2007, so if they can fool fans and general public alike, then that's even better! Bonus points for the fact that Michael isn't here this time around to dispute that!

I know believers have mentioned that they agree the vibrato is quite disturbing. No one has been able to find a genuine MJ song that features this same vibrato. Some people say it's not enough to convince them that it's not Michael's voice. Well, what would it take then? There is also different pronunciation, accent and style of singing, including snorts that are identical to Jason's snorts. Where are Michael's snorts? Has anyone ever heard him do that? I don't believe they'd leave them in there, if they put THAT much effort into the copy/pasted adlibs, copy/pasted word for word, breaths, grunts, and other various fabrications...

Has anyone processed Michael's real vibrato to the point that it sounds like it does on the Cascio tracks? That would be interesting to hear...I'd expect it to sound like Michael's vibrato - but processed...I wouldn't expect it to sound EXACTLY like a known imposter's unprocessed vibrato. This is where I don't understand believers' point of view.

Then again, do we even know what type of 'processing' was done on the Cascio tracks? Cuz that seems to be the resounding excuse as to why his voice sounds so different lol

The theory that the vibrato was processed doesn't sound logical. The first question would be: "Why?" And even if I farfetch it and say it was processed, I'd again have this questio:n "Why processing it to such a disturbing point that "hurts" the ears?"

 

[Arklove]

^^ That, and if the songs were the 'most complete'..why the need for so much processing?

Hollywood Tonight sounds less complete than any of the Cascio songs on the album, but it sounds exactly like Michael Jackson has always sounded despite some processing in it...So, yes, completely illogical.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

^^ That, and if the songs were the 'most complete'..why the need for so much processing?

Honestly, the processing is the least I am worried about. I am more woied about some details such as the word "victim" in Soldier Boy. Am I the only one who have impression that it is amateurishly pasted with unwanted effect?

 

[Arklove]

Honestly, the processing is the least I am worried about. I am more woied about some details such as the word "victim" in Soldier Boy. Am I the only one who have impression that it is amateurishly pasted with unwanted effect?

Well, we've been told that the songs are processed, but we've also been shown that the songs aren't actually as processed as we're led to believe. So, I agree, the processing isn't an issue...

It's very obvious that all the songs have been handled amateurishly. They sound terrible and shouldn't have been released.

 

[StellaJackson]

Someone, I believe it was TPIMaster, processed Beat It and one other song which might have been Earth Song but I'm not sure, to show that the idea that processing would create such a vibrato is total BS. The clips were taken down by JabMe. They didn't even contain any Cascio material. The vibrato that is on these tracks is exactly what came out of the singers mouth. There is only one person who we know of that has a vibrato like that.

PS - if you want a classic example at how easily people are fooled, just look at what was posted in the chatbox by RockStar a little while ago.

 

[Arklove]

Someone, I believe it was TPIMaster, processed Beat It and one other song which might have been Earth Song but I'm not sure, to show that the idea that processing would create such a vibrato is total BS. The clips were taken down by JabMe. They didn't even contain any Cascio material. The vibrato that is on these tracks is exactly what came out of the singers mouth. There is only one person who we know of that has a vibrato like that.

PS - if you want a classic example at how easily people are fooled, just look at what was posted in the chatbox by RockStar a little while ago.

This is another reason why it's obvious that the general public was the (perfect) target audience - if they hear that the songs were 'processed' and that's why Michael sounds so different, they'd say, 'Oh, ok, well, then that makes sense'..and then they move on, thinking nothing of it...

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

This is another season. Why is it obvious that the general pubic hair was the (perfect) target - if the hair was 'possessed' and so different? They'd say, 'Oh, ok, well, that makes sensual feeling'..and then they move about, thinking hot things of it...

You know, I am getting more and more worried about your posts. Are you sure everything's ok? If you need help, I know a very good shrink, he treated me

 

[dam2040]

Hey burn2nite! Stop lurking