Michael - The Great Album Debate

[KOPV]

its pretty dumb how you would try to make people feel dumb for not hearing what you want to hear.. insinuating that our hearing is not as good as yours.. PLEASE!! We know what we hear, and if you want to use your own thought process.. maybe its you that cant hear as good as us since you cant hear the difference between Jason and the tracks on the album.. To me the difference is obvious..

To top it off I am one to say of course I can hear that the voice is not what we are accustom to from Michael, and is understandable why people would question it.. BUT it does not sound like Jason.. SIMPLE!! the simularities are in the production, not the voice...

But hey, if you know so much more than I, you know so much more than 2 forensic musicologists, you know more than bruce swedien, and 5 other producers that worked IN the studio with Michael within the past 30 years.. The preach on!!

Tell me how great your producing ear is...

 

[StellaJackson]

The irony is that the original versions of these tracks contain hardly any processing whatsoever, yet still sound the same as the finished versions with regards to the vocals. The forensic musicologists are a mystery unto themselves and the listening session was as split as the fanbase:

CORY ROONEY on "Breaking News"

"I can't believe they released a Michael Jackson single that's not really him!!!!!! Trust me people!!!!!!!!!

I sat in a session where we solo'd the vocals and it was just someone set up to sound like him and the only parts that really sounded like him were samples from older records of his. There was nothing that was consistent with any of his previous recordings as far as vocal control or just plain habits. Last but not least when we asked if there were any out takes or alternate tracks they said that they were erased because they needed to make room on the hard drive!!! Who does that??? Tell me who would erase anything with Michael Jackson's voice? It is sad!!"

"I have read the statement from the MJ estate and I have to say that it's just more bull****!!! I was in that room, and the majority of the people mentioned did NOT agree that It was MJ!!! Some felt it sounded like him but all agree that there was nothing there that was consistent with any MJ habits like finger snaps, headphone bleeding, foot stomping or just simple things like his voice asking for another take. Both dr. Freeze and Teddy Riley sat with Taryll Jackson and myself and stated that they felt what we felt. As for the specialists that were brought in, I don't think anyone from the actual Jackson family got any direct confirmation that made them feel any different then what they have felt all along."

 

[KOPV]

I have not heard any origional versions that did not sound overly processed already!! Where can I find?

 

[StellaJackson]

I have not heard any origional versions that did not sound overly processed already!! Where can I find?

You won't. And I wouldn't go asking for them either.

 

[azsummergirl]

@kopv i'm just pointing out that it's weird that you are SURE it's not jason, because you can hear differences that, honestly, are extremely small, but you DONT hear enough differences between the cascio singer and michael's voice to say it's not michael.

I'm not saying anything about what i hear (though that's obvious at this point anyway lol) i'm asking about YOU and what is causing you to feel this way. What are the extreme differences you hear between jason's voice and the cascio singer that make you sure it's not him? what are the similarities between michael's voice and the cascio singer that make it so that you can't say, in any definite way, that they're not the same person?

not trying to make you feel like i have a better ear, i'm questioning what, in your personal mind, makes the difference between the cascio singer and jason so distinct, but the difference between the cascio singer and michael . . . not.

i mean, you've listened to more mj than jason in your life, right? i would think it would be easier to hear differences between michael and the cascio singer than it would be to hear differences between jason and the cascio singer.

it's an honest question. i don't really care what anyone in this forum thinks of me. i love every mj fan, and that's a fact. we're a family, in a way, even if we're all different and have different ideas. but the tracks aren't him and i'm not going to be politically correct about it, sorry.

 

[ivy]

The Estate doesn't even know the answer:

"At that time, no one ever mentioned that the vocals we heard on the Cascio songs, which were basically in demo format, might not be Michael." — Statement to Fans

"While these vocals may have been 'guide vocals,' or in demo form, it does not detract in any way from their quality or their authenticity." — Michael: The Story Behind the Album

However, Taj Jackson claims it's neither:

"[Referring to Breaking News] This was not a demo. This was a complete vocal. The songs were sold as final album tracks and 'approved' by MJ." - Twitter Timeline

Actually it seems like Taj doesn't know what he's talking about.

Let's go over the basics, shall we?

Guide vocals are the initial vocals that are recorded with a basic instrument (guitar or piano) to give an idea to the musicians about the song. It's generally hard for musicians to play with a feeling from notes on a piece of paper, so a guide vocal gives them an idea about what the singer tries to accomplish. A guide vocal is generally not used in the final released song.

Demo vocals are any vocals that are work in process, that's not finalized. They can range from initial phases to almost finished songs.

Final vocals are the vocals that are used in the released song. They are generally recorded after the music is finalized and recorded.

So to summarize guide vocals are very basic vocals that are used to give idea to the musicians and then thrown away. Demo can be anything from random mumbling to 3/4 finished songs (as we saw in today's discussion with Stella) and final vocals are the ones used in the released songs.

In some instances people use demo and guide vocals interchangeably (just as Stella and Estate did) however that's not totally correct as demos could be almost completed / could be releasable (as we have seen with many demos of Michael released in albums) and guide vocals - as I mentioned before- are generally never aimed to be released / or included in the final product at all. so they are approached differently.

So even by definition we all know that it's impossible for these to be "final" tracks. Did Eddie play all the instruments in his basement? If these were "final" why they were planning to meet in London to work on these more? If they were "final" there would be multiple tracks - leads, background, harmonies, layering etc. Adlibs will be recorded. It's also dumb to think that a basement home studio recording would be "final", seriously people do you remember the picture we have seen at Oprah? Seriously.

So sorry but anyone with a little musical knowledge would know these aren't "final". I was just an assistant to a music group and even I can see what is final and what is not.

The irony is that the original versions of these tracks contain hardly any processing whatsoever

I'm curious to know what you call as "originals". Because the protools session leaks aren't original or raw, they are early mixes. Birchey was very clear about that.

 

[KOPV]

What I hear is differences that can easily be lossed through poor production.. I've seen it done! and can understand how it could make Michaels voice sound the way we hear it.. I did state that I can understand why people would question it..

The recording style, the editing, and the production was very different than anything Michael has ever done, and what I believe would ever do..

The way the production was is they completly drowned out all background sound.. Which a real vocalist would never allow.. WHY? Because when you extract all other sounds you also take out many aspects of the emotional appeal of a vocal.. If you listen to all Michael acapellas from the past you'll hear continues beathing, claps, stomps.. Not just cuz the claps sound cool, but like I said when you drown out those sounds you drown out aspects of the vocal aswell.. the way production equiptment opporates it ends up making the voice sound (the best way I can explain it) is robotic, or non human.. The main difference between Cascio tracks and normal MJ tracks is not so much the tone, its the fullness of the voice.. which was what set Michael apart from other artists.. without that, it might as well be Jason or anyone else..

The way the vocals were also ultured is crap.. Like I said before melodyne was way overused, primarily on the vibrato.. and I don't like the way they used protools

 

[StellaJackson]

I'm curious to know what you call as "originals". Because the protools session leaks aren't original or raw, they are early mixes. Birchey was very clear about that.

How do you know for a fact that they are early mixes when you claim to have not heard them? And even if you have heard them how can you be sure?

 

[azsummergirl]

so what about the differences between jason and the cascio singer, that you hear? can those not also be explained by "poor production"?

 

[ivy]

How do you know for a fact that they are early mixes when you claim to have not heard them? And even if you have heard them how can you be sure?

When the protools session information was posted here by Birchey, I talked with him multiple times for multiple hours. He told me about the screenshots. According to him there were multiple takes combined to make the leads, pasted on grunts, adlibs, same background layered to make harmonies and so on and on. He wrote most of these publicly as well. That's a worked on song and not "raw" or "original" - it's music 101. I don't think it's rocket science to know what is "raw/ original" and what is worked on.

 

[StellaJackson]

When the protools session information was posted here by Birchey, I talked with him multiple times for multiple hours. He told me about the screenshots. According to him there were multiple takes combined to make the leads, pasted on grunts, adlibs, same background layered to make harmonies and so on and on. He wrote some of these publicly as well. That's a worked on song and not "raw" or "original" - it's music 101. I don't think it's rocket science to know what is "raw/ original" and what is worked on.

Correct, but by original I mean the state they were in when first received by Sony: ie the versions as submitted by Cascio. Birchey's analysis of the multiple takes is correct but that is how they were received by Sony. It isn't the work of Teddy Riley or any other producer after the fact.

 

[ivy]

Correct, but by original I mean the state they were in when first received by Sony: ie the versions as submitted by Cascio. Birchey's analysis of the multiple takes is correct but that is how they were received by Sony. It isn't the work of Teddy Riley or any other producer after the fact.

how do you know that those are the versions submitted by Cascio? Weren't they dated end of August and Teddy started at the beginning of September? How do you know another producer wasn't involved? Didn't Teddy say that he was called as a "finisher" when they weren't happy with the job of the other people?

And even everything you say might be true, that doesn't rule out processing done by Cascio/ Porte so that makes your argument of "originals have hardly any processing" incorrect. What would be correct that you are claiming that Sony producers did almost no processing but you actually have no idea about how much processing was done before it was submitted to Sony.

and if you read the estate statement very carefully they say the tests were done on "raw vocals". I believe they are talking about something that we didn't hear at all.

 

[StellaJackson]

how do you know that those are the versions submitted by Cascio? Weren't they dated end of August and Teddy started at the beginning of September? How do you know another producer wasn't involved? Didn't Teddy say that he was called as a "finisher" when they weren't happy with the job of the other people?

And even everything you say might be true, that doesn't rule out processing done by Cascio/ Porte so that makes your argument of "originals have hardly any processing" incorrect. What would be correct that you are claiming that Sony producers did almost no processing but you actually have no idea about how much processing was done before it was submitted to Sony.

End of August? Interesting. If Water for example had been processed, don't you think they would have at least managed to get it in tune? And why would someone process a vocal to the extent that it no longer sounds like the person it is meant to be?

 

[ivy]

End of August? Interesting. If Water for example had been processed, don't you think they would have at least managed to get it in tune?

I'm not sure about the date, perhaps Pentum remembers. I remember it as towards the end of August and real close to when Teddy started. If I'm wrong someone can correct me.

As to your second question, it all depends on who did the processing right. Assume that you are right and indeed those are the versions submitted to Sony, they are definitely worked on - by Eddie and Porte probably. Remember what I was discussing with Grent and how he said "unless they are terribly messed up". Add Teddy and when he said on twitter that the songs already had processing on them and Cascio messed them.

Then ask yourself why do you expect Eddie Cascio a newcomer in his home basement studio to be able to do a perfect processing. again isn't it like walking to McDonalds and expecting to find a chef cooked 5 course meal?

 

[KOPV]

Can I ask this question!! as we all go back and forth.. What is it all for? OK lets say some are found right and its NOT Michael.... Than what? a year or more later some will walk away and say "Ya I'm right." Is that all its for??

Or to have more bad things to say about SONY, like they are "IN" on this secret..

Or the other way around, we find out it IS Michael.. "Oh ok now we know" and walk on..

I guess aside from our personal desire to know what is going on, is there any other reason to argue our points?

For me its just personal peace of mind to know.. how bout anyone else?

 

[StellaJackson]

I'm not sure about the date, perhaps Pentum remembers. I remember it as towards the end of August and real close to when Teddy started. If I'm wrong someone can correct me.

As to your second question, it all depends on who did the processing right. Assume that you are right and indeed those are the versions submitted to Sony, they are definitely worked on - by Eddie and Porte probably. Remember what I was discussing with Grent and how he said "unless they are terribly messed up". Add Teddy and when he said on twitter that the songs already had processing on them and Cascio messed them.

Then ask yourself why do you expect Eddie Cascio a newcomer in his home basement studio to be able to do a perfect processing. again isn't it like walking to McDonalds and expecting to find a chef cooked 5 course meal?

But it still comes down to the fact that we have to believe that there is a processing technique that not only changes a person's vibrato, regional accent, pronounciation, age of voice and timbre but manages to make them match an impersonator and happens to create a sound (snort) that is exactly the same as the sound found in the impersonators songs.

 

[StellaJackson]

Can I ask this question!! as we all go back and forth.. What is it all for? OK lets say some are found right and its NOT Michael.... Than what? a year or more later some will walk away and say "Ya I'm right." Is that all its for??

Or to have more bad things to say about SONY, like they are "IN" on this secret..

Or the other way around, we find out it IS Michael.. "Oh ok now we know" and walk on..

I guess aside from our personal desire to know what is going on, is there any other reason to argue our points?

For me its just personal peace of mind to know.. how bout anyone else?

It is about respect for Michael as an artist. To Michael, his music and art was sacred. To do what they did is absolutely disgraceful and the main goal, at least for me, is to make sure none of the other 9 songs ever see the light of day.

PS: I've never believed Sony are in on this in any way. Nor the Estate. It all boiled down to ignorance, greed and a lack of time.

 

[ivy]

But it still comes down to the fact that we have to believe that there is a processing technique that not only changes a person's vibrato, regional accent, pronounciation, age of voice and timbre but manages to make them match an impersonator and happens to create a sound (snort) that is exactly the same as the sound found in the impersonators songs.

that's a subjective opinion that I do not agree with most. I'm like some other people and believe that it doesn't match Malachi at all - I'm more likely to believe another soundalike than Malachi. I also think the snorts are different. I don't hear an accent or any issues with age of voice. and vibrato can be affected by processing.

Can I ask this question!! as we all go back and forth.. What is it all for? OK lets say some are found right and its NOT Michael.... Than what? a year or more later some will walk away and say "Ya I'm right." Is that all its for??

Or to have more bad things to say about SONY, like they are "IN" on this secret..

Or the other way around, we find out it IS Michael.. "Oh ok now we know" and walk on..

I guess aside from our personal desire to know what is going on, is there any other reason to argue our points?

For me its just personal peace of mind to know.. how bout anyone else?

I don't care for the most part and actually I don't think this will be ever resolved for one way or another.

If the unexpected happens :

I'll be curious to see how people will feel if it's ever proven to be "Michael". how would they feel calling these songs , vocals whinny goat vocals and accusing people.

And as I mentioned before if it's proven to be "not Michael", I'll solely put the blame and shame on the parties involved and I'll be the housewife from Virginia to file a consumer fraud lawsuit.

 

[StellaJackson]

that's a subjective opinion that I do not agree with most. I'm like some other people and believe that it doesn't match Malachi at all - I'm more likely to believe another soundalike than Malachi. I also think the snorts are different. I don't hear an accent or any issues with age of voice. and vibrato can be affected by processing.

So you are comfortable in saying that Burn 2Nite, Fall In Love and Water sound more like Michael than Jason? Just curious.

 

[KOPV]

I personally feel, whatever the case is with Cascio tracks.. I don't think any more should be released! It causes too much trouble, AND the quality (whatever the truth is) is not MICHAEL JACKSON quality. Sony would be stupid to make a move like that again, after seeing what it did.. There is enough MJ songs out to be released that he was working on that can be released.. Over 20 tracks that we know he was working on before he past which I brought to everyones attention.

 

[azsummergirl]

i don't know why i am still debating this. mostly b/c i don't want this thread to die, i don't want the debate to go away b/c i want all fans to have a chance to know that they did this to us. if fans open their eyes, even one by one, that's good.

or because i just can't let it go. i can't talk to people in my real life about it b/c i kind of try to give them a break from mj talk all the time, ya know? so i want to talk about it with other people who care about it. I'm SO outraged that this happened, i'm just not going to let it go. i should probably do something more actionable, but i haven't. sigh. the real question for me is not "why are we still talking about this?" but more like "why do we still support anyone that was a part of this ridiculous fraud?"

 

[StellaJackson]

I personally feel, whatever the case is with Cascio tracks.. I don't think any more should be released! It causes too much trouble, AND the quality (whatever the truth is) is not MICHAEL JACKSON quality. Sony would be stupid to make a move like that again, after seeing what it did.. There is enough MJ songs out to be released that he was working on that can be released.. Over 20 tracks that we know he was working on before he past which I brought to everyones attention.

Failing to remove the songs from the Michael album and replacing them with other already finished songs following the huge outcry over Breaking News has to rank as one of the most stupid business decisions going. They essentially killed the album with that decision.

 

[KOPV]

I don't think and I hope Sony wont do something so stupid.. There are a huge list of recent songs Michael was working on, we can leave it there.. Next album could be made easy..

1) D.I.E.
2) Shut Up And Dance
3) Rock Tonight
4) Adore You
5) Ghost Of Another Lover
6) Too Late To Turn Back Now
7) Silent Spring
8) Remember What I Told YOu
9) The Loser
10) Bottom Of My Heart
11) Lady Of Summer

There you go a full album just like that, now of course I don't know how any of them sound but I can BET everything that it would outsell MICHAEL for MANY reasons.

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

I personally believe the tracks are sung by Michael Jackson and I trust all the producers and the forensic musicologists that were hired by both Sony & the Michael Jackson estate, now I would love to see a picture or video (Which I doubt exists since MJ hated being filmed or photographed while recording according to him on his autobiography Moonwalk) of MJ recording the songs.

Also didn't MJ sign back with Sony Music in 2008 and became friends with the new Sony Music executives ?




Update: I would not be bothered if Sony released more unreleased songs that were recorded in the Cascio basement since MJ made all that music don't you think he would want us his fans to hear it ?

 

[Kapital77]

I stopped to talk about this issue because it is totally clear it is Malachi on those songs, and i don't need to hear more tracks from them to know it is Jason.

DiLeo and Cascios fooled Sony/Branca... that's all.

Yelps, snorts, vibrattos, let me let go vs monster, room2breath vs keep your head up, no proofs, no handwritten notes, Mj family, "Jab me" erasing comparisons all over the net, etc....

Too many excuses to avoid what it is clear for the core of the entire Mj fan world.

 

[Chamife]

I could understand the interest within the fan community on the desire on coming to a conclusion of the truth of these songs.. But reaching almost 1350 pages? DAMN!! We do realize that the general public does not care or even give it any thought anymore right??

Maybe not, but it's still in the shops for people to buy. The general public doesn't care, because the general public doesn't know. When they buy a Michael album, they expect that the vocals are Michael's. I believe that a lot of people who buy Michael's albums aren't perse fans, but musiclovers in general who want to posess all of Michael's albums, like they want to posess other artists albums. Like collectors.

I hear the simularities of course.. Ive done all those listens.. But its not the same to me.. when I hear breaking news while at first I'd say no this is not Michael.. there are at least parts that would get me.. With ANY Malachi song there is not ONE moment that I'd think.. "wait a second could that be?".. Not at all.. There is a difference..

And thats why I said Jason could have been used, but I do believe Michaels voice is in there.. OR it is Michaels voice and someone else sang the lyrics which cannot paste it exact which we will here.. Aside from that, the editing is so much alike to Jasons..

Yes I hear the breathing tecnique simularities.. and Michael has used that breathing technique in Butterflies.. jason ripped in off Michael

Oehh...Butterflies. That song and the way it is sung, Michael proves he has more soul in his little toe than Jason in his whole body (IMO!!). I really don't see any similarities between Jason in any Cascio song and Michael in Butterflies. In which song on Michael you think there are similarities?

I don't understand the discussion about guide vocals and demo vocals. I understand that there are differences, but in the Cascio songs I clearly hear someone singing full out and trying to do his utterbest. I don't hear any guide vocals? And how can you transform guide vocals into someone singing full out? Maybe it's me, but I don't understand.

 

[eXceLOfFam1]

to clarify, a guide vocal is in a demo, they are not comparable. there is music, the singer sings or mumbles some vocals (this is the guide vocal) and that together = demo

 

[Calisto]

I don't understand the discussion about guide vocals and demo vocals. I understand that there are differences, but in the Cascio songs I clearly hear someone singing full out and trying to do his utterbest. I don't hear any guide vocals? And how can you transform guide vocals into someone singing full out? Maybe it's me, but I don't understand.

You're not alone. I don't understand the argument either.

The vocal tracks sound like finished album takes to me. Every one of them could easily be used on a Jason Malachi record, for instance.

Just compare "Stay" (a supposed guide track) to "Critical" (an album track). The quality of the singing is essentially the same.

 

[Grent]

You're not alone. I don't understand the argument either.

The vocal tracks sound like finished album takes to me. Every one of them could easily be used on a Jason Malachi record, for instance.

Just compare "Stay" (a supposed guide track) to "Critical" (an album track). The quality of the singing is essentially the same.

EXACTLY ! You can clearly hear a person trying hard here (on all 12 !!). What's the explanation? Processing ... processing made an uninspired MJ guide vocal to a JM-sounding giving his best vocal?

The guide vocal explanation is complete BS. I don't know who came up with that. Probably Friedman. Right after his "the Cascio songs are the best and most complete work MJ left" ...

All those explanations fall apart.

Sadly, even those you hear that something's wrong, gave in to an controversial explanation or another.
Vibrato? Melodyne.
Doesn't sound like him? Guide vocal. Or supervoice.
Ah ... right. Since it can't possibly be a fraud, it must be Melodyne.

 

[kreen]

Instead of spending time on uncertain and subjective details like whether or not the vibrato sounds right, whether it resembles Malachi’s or what modern computers can or cannot do – things that even those of you who claim knowledge of those techniques can’t agree on – let’s discuss a bit more one of the basic – if not THE most important – factual information we have: the registration of the “MJ Song Book” with the Copyright Registry Office two days after MJ’S death.

What can we say about this entry? What does it contain? It seems to me it contains one of three things :


1- MJ’s vocals.

2- The songs sung by an imitator (Malachi?), as featured on the album and on the leaked tracks.

3- The original songs sung by somebody else, for instance James Porte, whose vocals were then replaced with those of an imitator.

Option 1 is self-explanatory; nothing to add about it.

Option 2 seems impossible, because it implies that Eddie Cascio had hired an impersonator BEFORE MJ’s death to record his own songs. Not knowing in advance MJ would die, why would he do that? Some have argued that maybe Cascio hired an impersonator to give MJ an idea of what the songs could sound like with him singing, but that is unlikely on several levels : first, one doesn’t need to go to the trouble of hiring an actual impersonator to give a singer an idea of what some songs would sound like with his vocals (if it was necessary, all songwriters would do that, when they in fact usually just sing their own demos, or get any singer to do it); second, the impersonator who went along with the completely legal idea of singing some demos for somebody would them have to ALSO go along with the completely ILLEGAL scheme to sell those songs as the real deal; and third, well Eddie Cascio would have to be either a genius criminal mind or an evil mastermind to conceive of such a thing, and we have no reason to believe he is either of those things.

Option 3 is impossible, because, as no “swap-ups” are possible in the Registry, it would mean that the Cascio songs actually released on the album (or leaked) are not covered by any copyright right now (all the more impossible when we know that sites that put up the leaked songs are immediately told to take them down for…copyright infringement!).

So, what do you guys think?

I'm replying to my own post here, because I think it's revealing that, in the past few pages, people have basically argued over what they think they hear -- some hear MJ, some don't -- which shows it's all subjective.

But this entry in the US Copyright Office is not subjective. And it's telling that none of the pro-fake people here have bothered to answer my question : which of the three possibilities above do you think the MJ Song Book entry contains? Will any of the pro-fake people answer this, or would they rather keep discussing what their imagination tells them they hear or don't?