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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Grent said:
But as I said, Melodyne just doesn't affect the vibrato, if you don't mess horribly around.
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isn't that the issue here?

when I was discussing this with my friends , all I kept hearing was the level of processing, the level of change - similar to over 10% being problematic etc. I know and understand that normally melodyne and similar program is used to do minor corrections that wouldn't result in obvious differences. and I know that musicians would prefer to record again rather than doing extensive changes. But we aren't dealing with "normal" conditions here.

for a second forget what Teddy/ Eddie said or didn't say, assume that you got one take of vocals, isn't it possible to terribly mess the vibrato if you do a combination of stuff such as pitch correction, note duration changes, speed ups, fitting the vocals to the new rhythm and so on and so on?
 
ivy said:
isn't that the issue here?

when I was discussing this with my friends , all I kept hearing was the level of processing, the level of change - similar to over 10% being problematic etc. I know and understand that normally melodyne and similar program is used to do minor corrections that wouldn't result in obvious differences. and I know that musicians would prefer to record again rather than doing extensive changes. But we aren't dealing with "normal" conditions here.

for a second forget what Teddy/ Eddie said or didn't say, assume that you got one take of vocals, isn't it possible to terribly mess the vibrato if you do a combination of stuff such as pitch correction, note duration changes, speed ups, fitting the vocals to the new rhythm and so on and so on?
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That would mean that Michael would have sung like this in the original ----> [youtube]m-vvVspJALc[/youtube]
 
ivy said:
isn't that the issue here?

assume that you got one take of vocals, isn't it possible to terribly mess the vibrato if you do a combination of stuff such as pitch correction, note duration changes, speed ups, fitting the vocals to the new rhythm and so on and so on?
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Theoretically, yes. In this case, no. Because you would have to shorten every note, that contains vibrato in order to reach that fast vibrato. Every single note. If you reverse-engineer that, you get fluent singing with slow notes inbetween. Those slow notes might have normal vibrato speed, still got a tremolo that MJ never had (and you don't edit tremolo in Melodyne in either way) and just do not fit. And it's not that you got 50/50 vibratos that fit and vibratos that are off. You got almost every vibrato off - at the same speed. On 12 songs!! So this is how the songs were sung.

At Take me away and so forth, you notice parts that fit and parts that are off. Because the whole vocal was rearranged in tempo, pitch and so forth. This was not done with the Cascio vocals. You would notice.

As I explained: normal vibrato speed = song would be extremely slow and/or low.

And if we assume, not the whole vocal, but only those notes containing the fast vibrato have to be slowed down, the whole song falls apart.

Fast vibrato = shortened notes or different singer

I'm planning to do a video about this, because I believe the vibrato is the key to all this. You can define it by numbers. And numbers are easier to believe than opinions/ears. I will scientifically take samples of various MJ songs from all eras and compare the vibrato speeds in Hz.

Then we wil compare those speeds to those found at all Cascio tracks.

Then we will take samples of all available Malachi songs to get the numbers.

Then again, comparison with Cascio.

We will see, what the numbers say. And to back it all up, we try to reverse engineer the possibility of the fast vibrato being caused by processing. We slow down / pitch down the Cascio songs as a whole to show that they were beyond doubt not sang that way. We will also try to just lengthen those particular notes that have vibrato in them, to show, that everything falls apart.

I hope, this will be of help to decide whether those vocals are MJ or not.
 
kreen said:
Friedman says those worktapes exist, so maybe we'll get to hear them someday.
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Not quite. Roger Friedman says "work tapes" exist of Michael Jackson discussing "what was going on with Eddie Cascio and other members of the Cascio family."

What we're asking for—and what Cory Rooney and 3T have understandably asked for—are the missing song-related outtakes.

kreen said:
Maybe Cascio is keeping [the work tapes] for some future project. Maybe he wants money for them.
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Even still, that doesn't explain why such audio evidence would go completely unmentioned here, here, here, and here.

kreen said:
Maybe [Eddie Cascio's] so insulted strangers would call him a liar that he doesn't want to give them the satisfaction of having to prove he's not (kinda like what Obama did with his birth certificate for a while!).
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Then Eddie needs to get over it. His songs are ripping apart his friend's fan community. He should feel obligated to clear the air.

Besides, even if Eddie was that petty, there's still the Estate and Sony Music. Why haven't they said a single thing about the supposed tapes?

kreen said:
Friedman says those notes exist.
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Friedman is vague in his description, and just like with the missing audio, none of the big three (Angelikson Productions, the MJ Estate, Sony Music) have ever publicly acknowledged the existence of any handwritten notes. (Again, not here, here, here, or here.)

kreen said:
Beause they were guide vocals, recorded by a MJ who was not in top form, by producers who didn't know what they were doing.
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What do you mean by "not in top form"?

Anyway, it's very clear to my ears that the vocalist is the young, grit-less Jason Malachi. Furthermore, it genuinely sounds like he's giving it his all on these "guide" tracks.

kreen said:
Who else here never wants to hear the word "vibrato" again in their entire lives? FORGET about the vibrato. It's either a concidence, an artefact of some clumsy recording/singing/post-production, or just your mind playing tricks on you.
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Or it's simply Jason Malachi's vibrato throughout all 12 songs. The exact same vibrato he drenches all his recordings in.

kreen said:
If [Jason Malachi] were to put his web site back on, he'd immediately get hundreds of threats/demands/accusations from half-crazed MJ fans who think he's the devil. He probably doesn't need the aggravation.
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Jason's been receiving heat from MJ fans since 2007. It wouldn't be anything new to him.

kreen said:
As for him not capitalizing on this free publicity to kick-start his career, maybe he's decided, as indie musicians usually do at some point, that he won't make it after all. Maybe his wife finally said, enough with the singing, just stick to your day job.
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Ever heard the saying, "strike while the iron is hot"? Why would Jason decide to throw in the towel just as people are beginning to actually talk about him?

Also, where's James Porte been in all this? He supposedly recorded an entire album with the legendary King of Pop, yet hasn't said a word about it. (For some reason, even his four year old "Last FM" profile—which highlighted his connection to Frank DeLio—was deleted just a couple hours before the premiere of "Breaking News.")

kreen said:
Again, a coincidence, or your mind playing tricks on you. When we're told to look for something, we often see it, even when it's not there. It's the power of the imagination.
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The former argument isn't believable. (Really, a mere coincidence that Michael Jackson sounds identical to Jason Malachi throughout a whopping 12 ballad and uptempo songs?)

Whereas the latter argument can very easily be flipped around and used against every "believer" out there. (Example: People of authority have told you to see Michael in the music, and so you do, even though he's not actually there. Example 2: You desperately want the songs to be Michael, therefore you've tricked yourself into hearing him over the true vocalist.)

Now, as a big MJ fan, why would I choose to hear a lousy imitator's voice on the Cascio tracks? For what reason would I want to deny myself a whole album's worth of recently recorded material?
 
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So basically, after reading all of that technical discussion about Melodyne, vibrato and the likes, can we conclude it is.. inconclusive at best?

Here's something that's not inconclusive : if amateur musicians on message boards think they have found pretty solid proof that 3 songs on an official Sony profuct are fraudulent, I think the Estate/Sony/even the Jackson family must have managed to come to the same conclusoin. Yet they haven't, because they haven't sued/disavowed the songs.
 
kreen said:
So basically, after reading all of that technical discussion about Melodyne, vibrato and the likes, can we conclude it is.. inconclusive at best?

Here's something that's not inconclusive : if amateur musicians on message boards think they have found pretty solid proof that 3 songs on an official Sony profuct are fraudulent, I think the Estate/Sony/even the Jackson family must have managed to come to the same conclusoin. Yet they haven't, because they haven't sued/disavowed the songs.
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just because they havent sued does not mean that they have not come to the same conclusion as those who believe the songs are fraudulent, you do not know their reasoning and have no grounds to make assumptions.
 
the songs will be left as they are. no lawsuits or anything, they would have to put different things on the album. too much effort for those muppets
 
Instead of spending time on uncertain and subjective details like whether or not the vibrato sounds right, whether it resembles Malachi’s or what modern computers can or cannot do – things that even those of you who claim knowledge of those techniques can’t agree on – let’s discuss a bit more one of the basic – if not THE most important – factual information we have: the registration of the “MJ Song Book” with the Copyright Registry Office two days after MJ’S death.

What can we say about this entry? What does it contain? It seems to me it contains one of three things :


1- MJ’s vocals.

2- The songs sung by an imitator (Malachi?), as featured on the album and on the leaked tracks.

3- The original songs sung by somebody else, for instance James Porte, whose vocals were then replaced with those of an imitator.

Option 1 is self-explanatory; nothing to add about it.

Option 2 seems impossible, because it implies that Eddie Cascio had hired an impersonator BEFORE MJ’s death to record his own songs. Not knowing in advance MJ would die, why would he do that? Some have argued that maybe Cascio hired an impersonator to give MJ an idea of what the songs could sound like with him singing, but that is unlikely on several levels : first, one doesn’t need to go to the trouble of hiring an actual impersonator to give a singer an idea of what some songs would sound like with his vocals (if it was necessary, all songwriters would do that, when they in fact usually just sing their own demos, or get any singer to do it); second, the impersonator who went along with the completely legal idea of singing some demos for somebody would them have to ALSO go along with the completely ILLEGAL scheme to sell those songs as the real deal; and third, well Eddie Cascio would have to be either a genius criminal mind or an evil mastermind to conceive of such a thing, and we have no reason to believe he is either of those things.

Option 3 is impossible, because, as no “swap-ups” are possible in the Registry, it would mean that the Cascio songs actually released on the album (or leaked) are not covered by any copyright right now (all the more impossible when we know that sites that put up the leaked songs are immediately told to take them down for…copyright infringement!).

So, what do you guys think?
 
I could understand the interest within the fan community on the desire on coming to a conclusion of the truth of these songs.. But reaching almost 1350 pages? DAMN!! We do realize that the general public does not care or even give it any thought anymore right??
 
^ what exactly does any of this, from a dedicated fans' perspective, have anything to do with the general public? I couldn't care less what the general public think! It's Michael's musical legacy that I care about....THAT is why this thread has accumulated to 1300 pages.
 
KOPV said:
I could understand the interest within the fan community on the desire on coming to a conclusion of the truth of these songs.. But reaching almost 1350 pages? DAMN!! We do realize that the general public does not care or even give it any thought anymore right??
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In total, there are many thousands og pages discussing the songs. Including the deleted ones and closed ones.
 
It has to do with general public because the general public was mentioned numerous of times within this thread.. If these were leaked songs like several "fake" leak songs it would not have made it to 1350 pages.. It's because it was released..
 
So whats your opinion on these amazing, amazing songs that sounds so much like Michael Jackson and not Jason Malachi, KOPV?

Have you heard all of the 12 songs?

Calisto: PM.
 
Of course, forced vibrato, a noticeably younger timbre (that even my Music teacher and a non-MJ fan noticed) and a visibly worse singing technique make it Michael all right... ¬_¬

Those aren't warning signs that something is up!?
 
Breaking News and Keep Your Head Up were reregistered by Warner-Tamerlane Publishing Corp six weeks ago at the US Copyright Office.
 
My opinion about the songs honestly I debate to myself all the time.. there are sertain things that I hear that Jason CANNOT do!! But some of the other leaks too sound even less like Michael..

I would of course prefered the songs to be left out of the album.. Even if they were Michaels!

And I have been in recording studios that have completly made people sound so different than the actual person.. have it to be melodyne and other productions that have ultered vocals.. The cascio tracks leave the voice sounding good but very empty at points..

I do not believe hat Jason (if it really is him) is the sole vocalist because he has NEVER pulled off that agression sound of Michaels anywhere near what I hear on the released audio... They could have used Jasons vocals over dubbed with Michael vocals at specific parts..

It is too difficult to come to a point of FACT!!

When we first learned about Jason before Michael passed away, I was one that was out saying he does not sound like Michael.. The tracks that made the album sound much more like Michael than any Malachi song.
 
KOPV said:
My opinion about the songs honestly I debate to myself all the time.. there are sertain things that I hear that Jason CANNOT do!! But some of the other leaks too sound even less like Michael..

I would of course prefered the songs to be left out of the album.. Even if they were Michaels!

And I have been in recording studios that have completly made people sound so different than the actual person.. have it to be melodyne and other productions that have ultered vocals.. The cascio tracks leave the voice sounding good but very empty at points..

I do not believe hat Jason (if it really is him) is the sole vocalist because he has NEVER pulled off that agression sound of Michaels anywhere near what I hear on the released audio... They could have used Jasons vocals over dubbed with Michael vocals at specific parts..

It is too difficult to come to a point of FACT!!

When we first learned about Jason before Michael passed away, I was one that was out saying he does not sound like Michael.. The tracks that made the album sound much more like Michael than any Malachi song.
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Have you heard Fall In Love - who do you think is singing the opening lines of that song?
 
StellaJackson said:
Breaking News and Keep Your Head Up were reregistered by Warner-Tamerlane Publishing Corp six weeks ago at the US Copyright Office.
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Yeah, I noticed that too last time I checked. Could it mean that Cascio/Porte have signed with Warner?
 
^ dont think I've heard it.. ill look for it now!! I hope I find it
 
Jesta said:
See, that's what I originally said due to his insulting of us, but calling him that when he's here is taboo. Pentum, he hasn't heard the comparisons, he probably hasn't even heard Malachi enough to tell the differences between the voices. WE know what's happening, and the type of production these Frankenstein songs have speak for itself. These are pitiful, PITIFUL excuses for songs regardless of who they're song by, they only SOUND pretty. It doesn't challenge us or give us depth, they're only there for a quick distraction.

Monster being in IMMORTAL was decided by Cirque BECAUSE THE RAP FIT THE THEME, The Estate had no say in what Kevin Antunes did. Would he have been aware of the magnitude of what he was doing? Probably not, that's why it was limited down to JUST the rap, no questionable vocals.

Bottom line, I'm sick of this and I'm just going to say it. You want to ban or place infractions on my account, then fine.

If you honestly, HONESTLY believe Michael Jackson, one of the greatest vocalists of all time with a vast knowledge of music, recorded these poorly-written songs in such a whiny, inexperienced boy-scout way, you must not have a lot of faith in his vocal ability. Even when he wasn't trying, he could still sing something beautifully and not goaty. When collaborating, Michael - the quintessential perfectionist - would never allow anything poorly written to pass his lips unless he was mumbling and improvising. He had a plan for every song, these songs are evidently never even thought of as being part of the plan. Eddie said that they were going to finalize vocals in London, so why isn't any tracks on his list of songs for an album? Judging by what I've read, Frank was MJ's golden boy and there was conflict between Eddie and Frank because of it. You don't think that he would be bitter if he never got to work with his friend and idol when his brother literally spent his entire adult life as Michael's servant?

Why was Neff-U and Barry Gibb so quick to show us Michael working in video/note form when Eddie hasn't provided a single shred of evidence that he worked on those songs? Why did Michael become so emotionless and whiny for these songs when his philosophy on music was that he never sang what he didn't mean? Why did he record numerous media songs when he said he was done with those songs a year earlier? I really want answers to these questions and I'm waiting for a believer to answer them to a satisfactory degree.
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Anyone want to consider these? Anyone? At all?
 
I just heard away, and my opinion about the song would be the same as the others that I said.. Is that its so over done that it leaves the voice empty where you can't hear what I'd call the "truth".. Melodyne was WAY over used in the song.. I will say that melodyne tactics are very simular to jasons, but then we are asuming he helped with production too..

The vibratto in most of the Cascio tracks are way too tightly waved as Cascio tracks are.. the vocal does sound more authentic than Jason tracks..

Now If I were to make a honest opinionated guess.. I would educatedly guess that they fused edited audio of Michael with Jasons..

Then I would have to state this.. WHY? There is really no real reason to use Jason.. There is technology where you can take a vocal of someone and make a complete fake song using that persons voice.. For example someone sitting at home could take vocal ranges from previous Michael songs, sing the song and will litterally paste Michaels voice to those words sung by another artist.. I've seen it done! A buddy of my brothers records music all the time, and as a prank call took his brothers voice, and talked left a rude message to my brother just to mess with him..

I think why we keep linking this to Jason is not just on the vocals, but the way the voice has been edited is SO simular to how Jason edits his voice.. sharpening and tightning the vibratto.. Also singing arangements are simular too.. It's like Jason takes the vocal relations to a melody of Butterflies and puts it to all his songs..

All Cascio tracks have the same vocal restraint style as Butterflies.. Not using full breath, witholding energy behind it..

I personally think its just as possible theory that it is Michaels voice but Michael never sang the lyrics at all or in full and they created the song with previous vocals.. And thats why they don't sound fully authentic, but closer than any Malachi song that he's released as a Malachi song.. Many options remain
 
KOPV said:
I just heard away, and my opinion about the song would be the same as the others that I said.. Is that its so over done that it leaves the voice empty where you can't hear what I'd call the "truth".. Melodyne was WAY over used in the song.. I will say that melodyne tactics are very simular to jasons, but then we are asuming he helped with production too..

The vibratto in most of the Cascio tracks are way too tightly waved as Cascio tracks are.. the vocal does sound more authentic than Jason tracks..

Now If I were to make a honest opinionated guess.. I would educatedly guess that they fused edited audio of Michael with Jasons..

Then I would have to state this.. WHY? There is really no real reason to use Jason.. There is technology where you can take a vocal of someone and make a complete fake song using that persons voice.. For example someone sitting at home could take vocal ranges from previous Michael songs, sing the song and will litterally paste Michaels voice to those words sung by another artist.. I've seen it done! A buddy of my brothers records music all the time, and as a prank call took his brothers voice, and talked left a rude message to my brother just to mess with him..

I think why we keep linking this to Jason is not just on the vocals, but the way the voice has been edited is SO simular to how Jason edits his voice.. sharpening and tightning the vibratto.. Also singing arangements are simular too.. It's like Jason takes the vocal relations to a melody of Butterflies and puts it to all his songs..

All Cascio tracks have the same vocal restraint style as Butterflies.. Not using full breath, witholding energy behind it..

I personally think its just as possible theory that it is Michaels voice but Michael never sang the lyrics at all or in full and they created the song with previous vocals.. And thats why they don't sound fully authentic, but closer than any Malachi song that he's released as a Malachi song.. Many options remain
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There isn't a Cascio song called away.
 
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