Michael - The Great Album Debate

[ADKIc3mAnX]

Could easily be that there are much more songs in similar state to the Cascio ones. Why weren't they released instead of Cascios? Maybe for the same reasons they chose the C-songs to appear on the last album instead of completely former unknown songs like DYKWYCA or STTR: They seemed to have more mainstream-appeal and are younger.



And I hope you won't leave this thread/MJJC forever, Bumper. I've been a lurker here for quite a long time and like your discussions with some other members. Still one of the most interesting threads here.

I heard that Monster replaced Do You Know Where Your Children Are when Sony and the Estate were deciding which songs to release.

 

[Lucilla]

Looool

Isn't it?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

p.s. Just to untwist some things before leaving, because I find this situation just unbelievable.

Gaz shows his enthusiasm for the number of replies and views. Nobody questions his enthousiasm. Why would actually anyone question someone's enthusiasm anyway?

Is this officialy the end of the debate, wow 15 months 24,153 replies and 878,621 views, this is by far a world record in the 12 year history of MJJC. good going guys

I jokingly illustrate Gaz's enthusiasm:

How Gaz sees Cascio tracks :

It sets good atmosphere and triggers a smile:

LOL,

Don't worry guys we will not be closing it any time soon. I wanna get it to a 100,000 views then it will be the biggest ever viewed thread on MJJC,

I propose to re-ignite the debate, but warn that some attitudes are sometimes sad to see making people run away (stella, love is magical, jesta, pentum? and some others,...):

We can arrange that by re-igniting the thread, but some people are clearly disgusted by some attitudes unfortunately.

Gaz made a mistake in the number, I lighten it up and suggest him to get faster to his 1,000,000 as he expressed his enthusiasm for:

How are you going to reverse the number of views?

p.s. on a more serious note, imagine how many views you would have had if this thread had been in the visible-to-all section
which ultimately would have led to many more new members, just saying...

I clarified that if it were visible on Google, more people would have access to view the thread (implying not only last pages, but any page among 1600):

Oooppss left of a zero I did mean a mil,

As for the second part, this forum is open for all to see and not password protected so not sure where your coming with that one.

No, I meant visible on Google.

Gaz clearly expresses that his objective was never to make this thread an avenue of sign-ups, indicating also that we can use this thread how we see it fits:

But in all honesty I've never for one minute thought of making this thread an avenue for sign ups, its here like all the others you guys can use it to how you see fit or you don't, for me there is never an agenda. but I am sure lots will totally ignore what I have just said and come up with their own interpretation of things like they always have and always will.

I clearly expressed that my idea was to help and give a little boost to MJJC by making this thread visible on Google and help some potential readers with info already contained in the 1600 pages, increasing the number of views that way, and ultimately, why not hope, increasing the number of potential members. I didn't have any agenda or any cause:

As far as I am concerned I don't have any reason to doubt your words. I just wondered, once the rule was clearly established that not a single (unreleased) Cascio leak was allowed in this thread, nor in the whole forum, why this thread was not visible on Google. It has nothing to do with any agenda, but sometimes we did have some valuable info in this thread. It could have helped other MJ fans (non-MJJC members) out there to read it, enrol on MJJC, and ultimeately add some precious info that they might have had, rather than narrowing it down to few memebers. But, that's just my opinion without any agenda or any conspiracy idea behind.

And here, I don't know for what reason, Gaz thinks I/we have a cause or an agenda (where did the info of an imaginary cause or agenda came from?):

Never even crossed my mind, did not know it did or didn't, very much like any forum/thread here.

One thing is for sure, I do not run this place based on google pages or anything the like, I work to service the fans within our space only, outside of that space I have very little interest.

Yes for you, you want your cause seen I can understand that but what is your cause may not be mine, but then I would never run this forum based on what my causes are that would be unfair,

There are many forums here that are not visible unless you become a member that's how forums that are for general members operate.

I was indeed surprised to see that I am told in the above post that I have a cause to be seen knowing that all started by Gaz's enthusiasm for the views and hope to establish world record in 12 years of MJJC reaching to million viewers. In order to avoid confusion and misunderstanding I explained that I have actually (in ten years of presence on this board) had no other interest than Michael Jackson. So, for me Gaz's and/or mine causes have always been the same: Michael Jackson, not Frank Cascio, not Eddie Cascio, not Teddy Riley, not John Branca, nor anyone else.

Yes I am familiar with forums and their respective threads on the net, I was myself a moderator on one of them (non-MJ related).
Usually when you type some subjects on Google, if the threads are not confined in a specific part of the forum, any MJ fan guest could read it.

Regarding the cause, I honestly don't have any cause. I consider myself as a MJ fan and I was just talking in the interest of all MJ fans, to gather, discuss and share views.

Gaz expressed his concern regarding the rules of the leaked songs, and I completely agreed and said I understood the reasons. We all have understood it and respected that rule so far, so that was never really the issue of the matter at all. And again I explained that my suggestion to make the thread visible is to increase the number of outsiders' views and who knows more members (knowing at the back of my mind that they'd be able to see any of the 1600 pages, not only the last ones):

I perfectly understand why, and tbh we have all respected that rule. That was not the issue at all. I was just saying to bring in more people who would potentially have more info.

Anyway, it doesn't matter any more

Then, I go back on topic of this thread by posting this:

I just wondered, if any believer could answer:

given the fact that Michael loved what he did, recording music, songs, etc, if Michael had the time to record 12 songs (= a whole album) in a matter of months in a friend's home studio, how many dozens of songs (= albums) did he record in his/a professional studio in a matter of years?

No reply, nut instead there are some random talks (nothing unusual for the thread). Anyway I re-try to re-ignite by posting this:

Aside from hanging out and enjoying family dinners with the Cascios, Michael did something else in their home: He recorded music. Eddie, who is now a music producer, says Michael was a mentor to him. The two used to create music together in the Cascios' home studio—a makeshift room in the family's basement, which included a wooden dance floor that was put in just for Michael.

"He was training every morning," Eddie says. "He'd dance, and I would be right here next to him dancing. Years later, fast forward to, I would say, the beginning of '07, he came ready to work. And that's what we did. We spent long hours working in the studio, recording."

Eddie says he and Michael recorded 12 songs together. On December 14, 2010, some of those songs will be released on Michael Jackson's posthumous album,​

MICHAEL. Some have speculated that the vocals on it are not really Michael Jackson's.

"I can tell you that it is Michael's voice. He recorded right there in my basement," Eddie says. "It was a home studio and, you know, we worked. I was there pushing the buttons. He was right there directing, and that's Michael Jackson."

Read more: http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Michael-Jacksons-Second-Family/5#ixzz1mlux6GvI

---------------------------------------------------

After re-reading Eddie's words, it doesn't sound as if MJ was either sick or as if he did it for fun...

Long hours of copy-pasting from Invincible, yup.


​

Ivy finds it funny that nobody reacts to my on-topic posts, but doesn't tell others to get back on topic. Anyway, I didn't take it personal as I've been quite used to be ignored when asking some questions to the believers:

bumper -

everyone either talks about something else or says that they got nothing new to say but you come posting Cascio related stuff. It's funny.

Musicman reacts by saying that it was normal to have on-topic questions and Lucilla points out what I said above, that most of the time some of my questions have been ignored by the believers:

Well, I think it's funny that the believers most of the time ignore his questions.
Just saying

Gaz, after some thinking I suppose decides to open up the thread (challenging my perception??? Why? It was a simple suggestion with intention to help increase the number of views from outside as he, remember, initially expressed with enthusiasm as he wanted to reach 1,000,000 views and have a 12-year record):

I then challenge your perception,

I have now opened up the controversial section to guests and any one who wants to view this forum and threads in the big wide world of the net,

Lets now see if this in fact makes an impact.

In the meantime Ivy explains that many people don't want to discuss the on-topic subject any more, including herself:

...

I don't think many people want to discuss it anymore. Me included.

After opening up, apparently there was a slight rise as indicated by Chamife:

Woooo.....15 viewers! Coincidence?

Now, I don't understand why Gaz uses "we". Who is "we"? As if there were "we fans" and "you fans". Among staff there are also believers and doubters, so I didn't quite get who was this "we". I've always thought that we were all one community of MJ fans, but anyway, I felt some kind of unnecessary challenge in "my perception" when there was no need for it at all. Remember, I just wanted to help with his initial idea of reaching to the million of viewers. Again, we are told to do it as we would:

Well contravening the public's perception of us, we have now handed you the very thing you all craved, do with it as you will

All we do is wish you luck in your quest to get it to the masses

I also felt that in the above post there was a heavy dose of scepticism. But, anyway, I didn't want to attach much importance to this "we" or scepticism as for me it was not a challenge, but just a suggestion as in "give it a try and let's all see what happens". By the way, I insisted again that I didn't have any cause or agenda, but that I wanted above all outside MJ fans to find the info on this thread:

I was rather seeing it as a tool to bring in more curious (non-MJJC members) MJ fans to this forum than getting it to the masses per se.

In the meantime Lucilla reacts to Ivy's post of not staying on the topic and then suggests to change the subject then. What other options are left? At the same time she thanks Gaz for opening up the thread:

...

Ok then, let's change subject

Thank you Gaz ;D

I re-try to stay on-topic which is again left ignored and at the same time I point out that there seems to be some kind of impact since the opening out as the numbers were getting higher and higher:

I guess that mocking MJ's music by inserting copy-pastes from Invincible without any explanation is more easily accepted than mocking the doings of the one who claimed he pushed the buttons in response to the questionings of the Cascio tracks.

By the way, it'st been the second day now that this thread is visible and it already has 903 000 views. Not bad after one day of visibility.

After Pentum's little joke and surprise, I clarified how many people, roughly, viewed the subject in less than one day actually:

Nah lool! Yesterday it had 800 000 and something (I don't know the exact number). This morning it had 890 000ish, and now already 903 000 views.

Pentum then reacted the same way I had reacted when Gaz expressed his wish to get it to the million:

Wow! Imagine how many views if it always was visible.

That was exactly what I had said yesterday to Gaz. It has already 905 000 views now.

SoCav confirmed what Gaz had said earlier:

Gaz posted this on the 17th.

Still, that's quite a lot of views in a short time. Does that mean there are many readers or are we just a bunch of F5 addicts in here. In any case, massive shout out to all the lurkers out there! :lol:

I was also quite surprised by the numbers actually, so I wondered if the views were counted per individual or per different IP addresses:

I don't know if the system recounts our own re-views, but when I enter and go out, the number remains the same. So I suppose it counts per IP address. The fact, however, is that the views increase quite rapidly.

In actually one day of being opened up there were more than 20,000 views. I posted the observation:

910,000 views...

I don't know how Pentum calculated from 890,000 to 900,000, but indeed it was much more than 9,000, it was 20,000. Anyway, to me it wasn't really important, be it 9,000 or 10,000 or 20,000 was not really what mattered. What mattered was that we try to reach the million as initially expressed by Gaz. And it seemed that the impact that Gaz seemingly sceptically (which is understandable) mentioned (see the post above) was starting to take its effect as showed by the rapid increase of views (outsiders or not, visiting the last pages of the thread or not, we don't know):

It's over 9000!!

And all of sudden, regarding the number of views, people's positive observation was replaced by cold shower of reproach:

Why are you getting so excited over the view numbers?

I don't know Ivy. Why didn't you ask Gaz why he was excited to see +800,000 views in this thread and why didn't you question his enthusiasm to get it to 1,000,000 views?

Furthermore, Ivy's tone of reproach degenerated the atmosphere of the discussion from my jokingly posted telephone book (how Gaz sees the Cascio thread, see above) to:

If anyone is reading the most recent discussion they are seeing Chuck Norris, Bruce Lee and Dumb and Dumber and we aren't seeing anyone registering to be part of the "discussion" which is non -present.

Yup, here is were the smile disappears. When we post on-topic questions and when they are ignored it seems to be funny. When I post Chuick Norris, Bruce Lee or other things, the discussion is non-present, even though we were told by Gaz to do it the way we see it fits, remember? Unless Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris were not the real issue, but the increase of numbers that "we? (who is that "we" again?) challenged us with. (Again why? What challenge? It was a simple response to help Gaz to reach 1,000,000 from the very beginning).

SoCav, surprisingly asks Ivy whether she's not however surprised to see 10,000 views in only one day (in reality it was 20,000, but nevermind):

So you don't find it surprising that a thread with a non-present discussion gets over 10,000 views in one day?

And here's Ivy's reply:

no. Tohme lawsuit averages 20,000 a day, even the boring lawsuit file had 5,000 hits to it. This thread hasn't shown over 10 people viewing it. currently there's only 3 guests. this section now shows 9 people viewing it, trials and tribulations has 60 people viewing it. and it also depends on how many times you have refreshed it. I alone have been in this thread 15-20 times today. so it's not that surprising if someone is googling for Cascio and coming to this thread.

From Gaz's initial enthusiastic post when he was mentioning how he wanted to get to 1,000,000 posts we get a reply as if anyone was trying to compete with other threads. Relax, it's only a thread and it's only an increase of number, nothing else. No need to write a thesis of how other threads gets 20,000 views daily in order to prove anything. We're one fan community for heaven's sake and if people want to show enthusiasm, let the people show their enthusiasm. If however you question their enthusiasm, start by questioning from the beginning when Gaz expressed it first.

And here is how from a nice atmosphere in this thread starting from telephonebook (illustration of how Gaz sees this thread, see above) we come to an atmosphere where we don't want to come back:

furthermore contentwise I don't see any reason to be happy. Assume that I have found this thread and wanted to look to the latest discussion. What do I see? Dumb and Dumber. What did you achieve with that in regards to Cascio songs?

Yup, when people don't react to on-topic posts that's "funny". When people react to off-topic posts, well that doesn't make happy... contentwise. So yup, let's continue having fun by posting on-topic subjects which are going to be ignored, despite the fact that we've been told by "we" that we could do it the way we see it fits... apparently not.

Also in response to "excitment" and latest off-topic regarding the the thread views I clarified some things:

Who's getting excited? I was merely observing the change from yesterday? By the way, the increase in views of the thread doesn't mean that people are viewing the last posts with Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee. There are many more pages with much more interesting info than that. Google it and you'll find it out. It's not my fault if believers avoid my questions.

Although I don't see it as any kind of competition and I don't know why you are comparing this thread's views to Thome's lawsuit views at all, we'll see if Thome's lawsuit will have as many views as this one one year later.

It seems that 10,000 (which in reality is 20,000) is the result of intensive refreshes:

to show 10,00 is not that much as some tend to think. btw - I at least visited / refreshed 10 times since my last post.

And the above post shows, once again, how the whole thing from the initial Gaz's enthusiastic post which brought quite good atmosphere turns into nihilism debate shifting from good mood to scpetical mood and from sceptical mood to bad mood because of which people don't want to stay here. It's certainly not Dumb and Dumber that make people go away.

Furthermore, I remember enthusiastic Gaz saying not wanting to close the thread any soon (see above) when we were having good atmosphere. And herunder, after the bad mood has been injected, Gaz changes his mind from "not closing the thread any soon"/"do it the way you see it fits" to "risk of this thread being closed"/"keep it on topic":

Keep it on topic guys or you run the risk of this thread being closed.

And to be honest if you want to be taken seriously the last five pages are a bit of an embarrassment to your cause.

Again, Gaz mentions "our cause". What the hell is that cause I just wonder and who gave the idea of having any cause at all other than what had been discussed from the very beginning regarding the boosting of the views and making it easier for non MJJC memebers to find info within the 1600 pages, and not on the last few pages.

And voilà a support in favor of such a measure which is the risk of closing the thread and staying on topic (although a few posts back it was all funny how nobody stayed on-topic and how Ivy herself had no interest in taking part into a on-topic discussion, see above):

That's what I was trying to say The goal was to educate the public who might not know about the issue with this songs and make this a common knowledge. If I'm new and found this thread through google, I'll read the first and the last pages, I wouldn't spend time reading 1600+ pages. And if I was interested in discussion about these songs but came and saw off topic talk I wouldn't bother to participate.

Gaz's expressed a goal to reach 1,000,000 people. Never did he say that his goal was to educate people. I suggested it to open up to others and indeed, if people were looking for some info they won't be directed to the last page, but to the particular info contained anywhere within this thread. The last few pages don't make any difference. I had impression that my suggestion of initial help to get to 1,000,000 views had all of sudden turned into a "challenge", "competition", "cosa nostra", ... Wake up guys. I am just a MJ fan and have been here for MJ defending his legacy first. If there is any cause, it is Michael Jackson. But some people are more adamant to defend or prise the Cascios and Branca that starts to make me sick.

I, once again, explained the initial "cause":

Gaz wanted to reach a million views. I suggested to make the thread visible. It got 10 000 views in one day (including your 10 refreshes), but my proposition sucks I guess. Let's hide it back and keep on pressing F5 from dusk till dawn.

Regarding on-topic subjects, I, once again, pointed out what happened, but expressed also the surprise and concern why on-topic posts which were ignored and found funny -because ignored-, all of sudden had to be back on-topic despite people ignoring on-topic subjects and despite Gaz saying to do it the wxay it fits us. The good atmosphere has clearly gone in a heartbeat:

I asked a few questions on topic, but they were ignored. There is no agenda or cause other than share views as they come along. If you wanna close the thread, well it's your decision, not anyone else's.



Umm, if you were new and googled the info you were interested in you wouldn't be directed to this particular last page, but to the keywords of the posts in any of the pages in this thread, be it page 300, 500 or 1000. What's this all of a sudden concern to get back on topic when the topic itself is contained within the 1600 pages?

I simply didn't understand this reaction from Gaz:

And that is your appreciation for me wanting to give you guys a voice,

Nice one.

Here, after finding it funny that no one was on-topic, all of sudden again we had to be on-topic. And I don't know where she saw monkey balls on the last page. It had been posted a year ago:

Well technically all of our threads have to be on topic. We kinda relaxed on this one as we had little moderation on this thread. However if this thread will be accessible to everyone and can affect anyone's opinion about MJJC , I think that the thread has to be on topic and free of any possible defamation and insults towards the parties.

It's one thing that our members understand how this thread works, it's another a random person finds this thread and then finds a picture of monkey balls on the last page.

Anyway I said what I wanted to say.

I wanted to clear up things with Gaz in order to avoid any misunderstanding, and that's why I am also writing this whole post before leaving:

Don't misunderstand Gaz, we are all MJ's fans and come here for MJ, not for the Cascios, not for Malachi, not for anyone else. If you say in your own post that if we don't keep going this thread on topic and that there is a risk of closing it, what options do we have left?

By the way, aren't you glad to see more views?

I reacted to Ivy's post regarding off-topic indicating that the last pages don't make any difference and that if people have access to the 1600 pages they could any time find out monkey balls or whatever off-topic picture or discussion there is:

Then I suggest you to start cleaning the 1600 pages, because they're all accessible regardless of what's on the last page.

Since the change of mood, from Gaz's enthusiastic "+800,000 views" and wish to get to 1,000,000, suddenly Gaz was not happy to see the increase in numbers. Also, suddenly his words letting us do the way we see it fits transformed into:

The whole point of this thread is the cascio debate so yes people do come here just for that however looking at the last few pages no one is doing the real debate justice infact I think you have let down the remaining 1600 pages and those who posted including yourself.

And no I'm not glad, to me it was more important for outsiders to read the debate rather than thread view numbers.

So, I am sorry, but when people try to initially help and when you see that the genuine effort to help is turned into some kind of reproach of "cosa nostra", challenge, competition, on-topic - off-topic change of mind, unnecessary change of mood, contradictions and belittling, what else is left to do than to retire.

I am happy to have met many good people inhere and I hope that Michael Jackson is not going to be forgotten and substitued by Frank, Eddie or Branca.

Peace and out.

Well ok, I don't know what kind of change you had expected in only one day, but I guess I have nothing more to add, nor to propose. I'll erase my last posts with Spongebob, Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee. My proposition and my posts are probably lame I guess. Sorry Gary, but as much as I tried to infuse positivity and smile into this thread when it was let down by many, it backfires to me as if everything we discussed and posted summed up to a funny trivial picture of monkey's balls that I jokingly had posted a year ago.

I also tried to help MJJC as much as I could with reporting some dangerous ads like Scientology that appeared on MJJC banner generated by Google, helped Ginvid with her public letter against Aaron's ill promotion tarnishing MJ, translated some parts of the Murray trial into Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian languages and invested my precious time, professionally and personally, in trying to understand what happened to those Cascio tracks by sharing my views and also learning from others. I am not saying this to have any kind of thanks in return, but just to say that I was there for Michael as much as I could in any way I could despite my busy life, family life, two kids and a huge number of things that I have to deal with. I was suggesting some kind of boost when yesterday you were talking about number of views. But today it's another story: "Thome's lawsuit average is 20,000 views" and "I am not happy about 10,000 views". Well, fine, although I am getting allergic to anything and anyone that has to do with supporting the Cascios (the source of the problem) and Branca (the one who allowed the spreading of the problem), I guess my work is done here.

Bye all, if some of you want to stay in touch with me, add me as a friend on facebook BUMPER SNIPPET. In case there are other Bumper Snippets, here's my avatar on fb for the moment:

Interesting this is the only thread that people feel like they need to leave the whole forum when you disagree with them in regard to some issue.

Perhaps it's indeed the time to close this thread for good , if it's creating the need to leave the forum.

People don't go away because of off-topic discussion, but because of the mood. Follow Arklove's piece of advice, smile a bit. Smile is contagious. Bad mood too.

nobody did such thing btw. We were generally talking about the off topic talk coming from multiple people and Bumper decided to take it personally.

Lol

Looool

Indeed lol.

Isn't it?

Indeed it is.

Bye

 

[ivy]

wow you have a lot of time at your hands. I'll keep it short and simple. and honestly I won't read the above post in full.

for a long time a lot of doubters complained that this thread was put in a section not as popular as others (such as news and happenings) and it was closed to public. The argument was that if it was open to public, more and more people will see it and will become more knowledgeable about this subject and hence would represent their unhappiness. Gaz opens up the thread to the public. What do we get? Unrelated off-topic talk and insults towards Executors. People point out now that it's open to public and if the goal was to educate people about this issue why not now stick to the topic. and the response you get is "let them find it in the 1600 pages" and turn it to a personal issue. Honestly we as moderators cannot win on this thread, because suddenly we insulted individuals personally by saying "hey let's stay on topic". Oh the horror. You give a lot of importance to this topic and we say let's talk about this topic. How evil of us.

As for the views : sure we would like to have more members and more views but we want that to be based on merit as well. For us to be proud the views have to come from an ongoing and strong debate and not because we were randomly chatting on it and posting off topic funnies. Even in his first post Gaz says "this debate is ongoing for 15 months" So perhaps you misunderstood the posts.

 

[Lucilla]

Not fair Ivy, I stopped reading your post after reading you didn’t read Bumper’s, what’s the point in reading yours then?

You can disagree with Bumper all you want, but his post at least it was written with respect and you couldn’t help write: “you to have a lot of time at your hands”?

Not fair at all.

 

[ivy]

care to show me where I said I didn't read bumper's post? I said I didn't read it in full that's a whole different than not reading it at all. and my plainly writing it is a lot different then Pentum's mockery.

why that remark you ask?

- was there a single moderation on this thread? No. It was just a discussion, brainstorming about the on topic and off topic posts and hits, yet Bumper had to take it personally. I mean why? Was he the only done doing the doing the off topic posts? No. Did anyone address the posts directly towards bumper? No. Yet suddenly it became all about Bumper. I mean why? Why can't we even discuss it without someone being offended?

- yesterday I took the time to do a little "let's be clear" posts saying that no one ever questioned what Bumper brought to this thread or the forum as a whole and it was welcomed by "lol" comment. Well the evil attitude me tried to say this has got nothing to do Bumper and no one ever questioned his contribution - actually it was defending Bumper and all you could reply was "lool". Yeah stupid me trying to correct misconceptions - if any - about how we see Bumper.

- and finally why the hell are we still discussing this issue on this thread? The rule clearly says any problems with moderation has to be either addressed in help section or through private message.

and you know what I'm really tired about this thread.

- you can't even write an opinion on this thread (such as let's keep it on topic) without it being seen as an personal attack and someone deciding to leave. I mean there have been even accusations of disability discrimination or the need to write personal goodbye's. Really? It's a discussion for God's sake.

- however the same people have no issues attacking to you and not realizing their own attitudes and how disrespectful and how hurtful they can be

- there's absolutely no respect to any staff or any rules on this thread either. We want it to be public, we want it to be off topic, we want no one to say anything contrary, we'll complain on this thread as much as we want, we want this we want that. there's no middle ground. As a staff we are doomed if we do, doomed if we don't.

I'll be honest and say that I believe it's time for this thread to be closed - either for a while or until something new comes up.


ps:

You can disagree with Bumper all you want, but his post at least it was written with respect

I guess you didn't read the jabs to approach, attitude and degeneration on my part in Bumper's post and putting the staff on the public criticism either. Well I read that much. And not limiting this to Bumper but where's the respect if people need to take jabs at you at their goodbye message, if they reply to something you wrote seriously as "lol", if they respond with stupid gifs. Before accusing someone of taking jabs please look carefully other people taking jabs as well. Where were you when for example Stella was accusing people of disability discrimination and putting a paragraph in his goodbye post that was a jab at me? Where was the respect police then? Why didn't you defend me and said not cool? Don't kid yourselves. No one is without fault here in regard to jabs to each other - including me, including you. You just complain about the ones addressed to your friends and people think similar to you.

 

[SoCav]

wonderful.. and if the above doesn't make my point I don't know what does.

Sorry ivy, but I am just dumbfounded that can you say this after doing the same thing yourself just one post above?

wow you have a lot of time at your hands. I'll keep it short and simple. and honestly I won't read the above post in full.

No, the gif is not nice. But neither was your remark.

Honestly we as moderators cannot win on this thread, because suddenly we insulted individuals personally by saying "hey let's stay on topic". Oh the horror. You give a lot of importance to this topic and we say let's talk about this topic. How evil of us.

I do not think people are insulted by the fact that they are asked to stay on topic. I actually agree that this debate can get very offtopic sometimes, but must admit that I found it surprising that it was mentioned. This debate has been going offtopic semi-regularly for months now and I do not remember it being a problem before. But I understand that request better now that there seems to be a misunderstanding, as Bumper described - with Gaz thinking that Bumper discussing the possibility of the thread being visible publicly was like a rallying cry, an attempt to promote his cause, whereas Bumper did not have this intention.

The frustrating thing is that you say the above after doing the opposite of saying "let's talk about this topic" just a few pages back. You said that you are not interested in discussing the topic anymore and when Bumper posted something that was ontopic you laughed about it (and you did not ask people to follow him and stay on-topic when you made that comment).

bumper -

everyone either talks about something else or says that they got nothing new to say but you come posting Cascio related stuff. It's funny.

I think this, rather than the request to stay ontopic itself, is just what frustrated people - at least me. And don't get me wrong, I am very appreciative of your posts in this debate - without your input, often as the only active believer, this topic might have died down a long time ago. I think this issue is just the result of both the misunderstanding I mentioned above and the fact that things can get a bit heated in here sometimes.

Hope we can all just relax, take a deep breath, and get, dare I say it, back on-topic.

 

[ivy]

Dear SoCav,

Seen this in my previous post?

No one is without fault here in regard to jabs to each other - including me, including you. .

Don't worry I'm not acting like a faultless angel. I actually can acknowledge my mistakes. I'm just dumbfounded that some think it's one sided. Where were any of you when Stella was writing that I was "disability discriminating", did you defend me against those jabs? Do you see in Bumper's post about approach, attitude and mood degeneration claims? Do you tell him to keep those out of his posts?

and that's my problem. I'm fed up with a million jabs aimed at me and when I dare to respond being portrayed like the bad guy.Funny that you can all be offended and I don't have that right. God forbid if I complain.

For the rest I don't see anything surprising honestly. This was a thread in a members only section and that every member knew that it's not really moderated and almost anything goes. When the thread got opened to the public and yes when the viewership numbers and people increased the staff got worried about how the thread and especially the off topic talk was representing MJJC and there was the discussion of whether it will be better if this thread is kept strictly as a discussion about the topic at hand so the new readers can see the intellectual debate.

That was all. It got nothing to do with Bumper or anyone for that matter. Unfortunately it snowballed to where it is now.

 

[SoCav]

Dear SoCav,

Seen this in my previous post?

I did not, because you posted it as I was typing mine.

Don't worry I'm not acting like a faultless angel. I actually can acknowledge my mistakes. I'm just dumbfounded that some think it's one sided. Where were any of you when Stella was writing that I was "disability discriminating", did you defend me against those jabs?

No, because I have no idea what disability Stella has and why he felt that whatever went on was a case of disability discrimination. Also, I do not deny that people are more inclined to defend those that they agree with or like (and of course the two are also correlated), for varying reasons. I am not sure if that was the case with the issue you mention as well, but in any case, I think I saw kreen defend you there (who is of course a believer as well).

Is this (always) fair? No, but it is something that is unavoidable, especially in a debate that is so polarizing. And I think it happens on both sides of the debate.

and that's my problem. I'm fed up with a million jabs aimed at me and when I dare to respond being portrayed like the bad guy.Funny that you can all be offended and I don't have that right. God forbid if I complain.

Of course you have the right to be offended and I can understand that some of the things that have been said have offended you. But now you are making it a one-sided thing in a way, by saying that you are just responding to other people's provocations. I realize that this is how it may seem from your perspective, but I am pretty sure Bumper felt that he was the one who was provoked. I do not think people are purposely being selective when it comes to you, let alone purposely wanting to aim jabs at you. I do think the fact that you are a moderator might make people more sensitive when you make a negative comment, even more so when they concern matters of moderation like they did now. I just do not think there is anything sinister behind this.

For the rest I don't see anything surprising honestly. This was a thread in a members only section and that every member knew that it's not really moderated and almost anything goes. When the thread got opened to the public and yes when the viewership numbers and people increased the staff got worried about how the thread and especially the off topic talk was representing MJJC and there was the discussion of whether it will be better if this thread is kept strictly as a discussion about the topic at hand so the new readers can see the intellectual debate.

Fair enough, I can understand that concern and things make more sense now. I think that it might not have been communicated clearly to the members in this topic though. There was just the unexpected (given the way this topic was previously moderated) request to stay on-topic, but without the above explanation about a change in course now that the topic is open to the public. I guess this might have caused some confusion, coupled with the misunderstanding about there being a cause or not.

Unfortunately it snowballed to where it is now.

Yup, that I agree with.

 

[kreen]

It is sad to see this thread die down...I know a lot of people have become disheartened in this thread and about this topic, myself included lately....But I just can't let it go...I feel like I would be abandoning Michael if I abandon this topic..I just really hope we never see anymore Cascio songs being released again...If they are, I guess this thread will once again be reignited!

Of course all the Cascio songs will be released at some point : Sony and the Estate are not going to just sit on 9 MJ songs they paid for, especially when you consider that the total amount of MJ unreleased songs is a finite resource. And Eddie Cascio would not be happy with his songs with MJ never being released and him never making royalties from them. He'd be entitled to ask Sony to sell the rights back to him, so he can sell them to another company.

 

[André89]

Sony and the estate has already alienated a large part of the fanbase. Rather successfully too, I might add. By all means, if they want more resentment towards themselves, more boycotts, and more pirating, then be my guest. Go ahead and release Fall In Love, Soldier Boy, Burn Tonight and all the other "masterpieces". Alltough these songs imo is a disgrace to Michael Jacksin, his legacy is already rock solid. For the most part, they are just hurting themselves.

They are most likely gonna keep on doing whatever they please, but quite frankly I don't even care about posthumous releases anymore. "Michael" was just so unbelievably bad. Even the songs by the real Michael Jackson was dumbed down remixes of the original demos, in order to please the "mainstream" audience. Michael left us so many great songs in his lifetime, and personally I am fine with those.

The last thing we need, is any more of this Cascio crap.

 

[WhoIsIt89]

Even if they put these songs on future albums, I'd still by the album to support Michael and his children. Really, we're no better than the Estate, we say the Estate is destroying his legacy by letting his songs out, I don't buy that, Michael has an entire back catalog spanning well over 30 year's that have and will continue to preserve his legacy as perhaps the greatest musician/entertainer of all time. We know Michael the human being, are these songs going to make us think any less of him? No. But boycotting and illegally downloading future albums because of three songs (that's what it will be, just like MICHAEL, they aren't releasing an album full of Cascio material) isn't doing any good for his children. They make money off album sales, they make money off merchandise sales and whatever else the Estate decides to put out. Boycotting and pirating an entire album effectively takes money out of THEIR pockets.

 

[SoCav]

Sony and the estate has already alienated a large part of the fanbase. Rather successfully too, I might add. By all means, if they want more resentment towards themselves, more boycotts, and more pirating, then be my guest. Go ahead and release Fall In Love, Soldier Boy, Burn Tonight and all the other "masterpieces". Alltough these songs imo is a disgrace to Michael Jacksin, his legacy is already rock solid. For the most part, they are just hurting themselves.

They are most likely gonna keep on doing whatever they please, but quite frankly I don't even care about posthumous releases anymore. "Michael" was just so unbelievably bad. Even the songs by the real Michael Jackson was dumbed down remixes of the original demos, in order to please the "mainstream" audience. Michael left us so many great songs in his lifetime, and personally I am fine with those.

The last thing we need, is any more of this Cascio crap.

Definitely agree André, although I personally do still care about posthumous releases (despite my expectations being extremely low as well ever since "Michael"). There are so many wonderful songs, concerts, and other things they could release. Michael left things behind that can still inspire people all over the world. I know that nothing will ever compare to the things Michael personally got to finish and release, but it would still be a pity for all this amazing material to go to waste or be misused. They have done a very good job on some things (e.g., This Is It film), hopefully this level of quality can be extended to other future release as well. It would be an understatement to say that I am a bit sceptical though.

Furthermore, I know that Michael's legacy is rock solid, but it nevertheless really irritates me that this has happened.

 

[Lucilla]

You can't even write an opinion on this thread (such as let's keep it on topic) without it being seen as an personal attack and someone deciding to leave.

That's not the reason why people leave.

I'll be honest and say that I believe it's time for this thread to be closed - either for a while or until something new comes up.

Yes, you said it before. It seems like you love that idea.

Anyway, I said what I wanted to say for now and I hold to my last post, except for the lacking “in full”.
See you guys around.

 

[qbee]

OK guys please lets all calm down take a R& R .. Give this thread a rest and come back on topic later
but please stop the mockery and disrespectful tones. The future of this thread is under review so I hope
you are listening to my GOOD advice and dont throw a wrench into the works .. DONE .. OK Thanks

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

Okay so as I was reading I thought it was kinda funny how now people are blaming the Cascio tracks for piracy when we all know very well piracy will never die, there are those who pay for our stuff and those who steal it and it is not the Cascio tracks fault.

Also talking bad about Michael Jackson's songs are not going to do anything and boycotting is free promotion as it was with the album "Michael" which was on pretty much all news channels before it's release and did it help ? I will say no as it sold almost 300K copies in the U.S alone in the first week and debuted at #3.

In my opinion going against Michael Jackson now without proof is just as it was in 2005.

 

[André89]

1. There's a huge difference between blaming the Cascio tracks for piracy in general, and pointing them out as an explanation for piracy related to the Michael album.

2. These creations are not* Michael Jackson's songs.

3. How on earth can you compare the greedy Arvizo family with dedicated fans trying to protect Michael's legacy? No one in this thread - from either "side" - are "going against" Michael Jackson. That's a fact.



*In my opinion..

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

1. There's a huge difference between blaming the Cascio tracks for piracy in general, and pointing them out as an explanation for piracy related to the Michael album.

2. These creations are not* Michael Jackson's songs.

3. How on earth can you compare the greedy Arvizo family with dedicated fans trying to protect Michael's legacy? No one in this thread - from either "side" - are "going against" Michael Jackson. That's a fact.



*In my opinion..

I was actually talking about how people reacted to Michael being accused of child molestation again people said he was guilty without proof, and now we have fans saying it's not him without proof.

 

[André89]

Two things that imo are way too different to compare.

The Cascio tracks are out there. 3 of them are released, and several more can be found online. Anyone can listen to them, consider what they hear, and form an opinion. The people who jumped to conclusions during the trial were for the most part misled by the media. They didn't have anyting concrete to evaluate, and believed the stories they were fed.

In this case, the smoking gun are the songs themselves.

Allthough we still doesn't have conclusive evidence, that can be said for both sides. There are absolutly no evidence that Michael even knew that these songs existed. No hand-written lyrics, no pictures, no video footage. Nothing.

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

Two things that imo are way too different to compare.

The Cascio tracks are out there. 3 of them are released, and several more can be found online. Anyone can listen to them, consider what they hear, and form an opinion. The people who jumped to conclusions during the trial were for the most part misled by the media. They didn't have anyting concrete to evaluate, and believed the stories they were fed.

In this case, the smoking gun are the songs themselves.

Allthough we still doesn't have conclusive evidence, that can be said for both sides. There are absolutly no evidence that Michael even knew that these songs existed. No hand-written lyrics, no pictures, no video footage. Nothing.

Okay but how about if he did record them and since it was recorded in a basement studio with his long time friend Eddie Cascio they never filmed it or took pictures since Michael himself said on Moonwalk that he does not like being filmed recording songs.

And some people say it don't sound like him well how do we the fans know it was not caused by the microphone they used or the processing.

 

[T.N.A.]

...Michael himself said on Moonwalk that he does not like being filmed recording songs.

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[youtube]lC8niFZ_Rus[/youtube]

[youtube]w5b0m-ZlWs8[/youtube]

[youtube]Xxd_PSjUwW4[/youtube]

 

[dam2040]

[youtube]53T7XC__kZk[/youtube]

[youtube]CeitXK1jKaw[/youtube]

[youtube]5Sv1o-ar3cw[/youtube]

[youtube]lC8niFZ_Rus[/youtube]

[youtube]w5b0m-ZlWs8[/youtube]

[youtube]Xxd_PSjUwW4[/youtube]

Well, this just proves the point really. He was never recorded.

 

[thiron]

Out of an interview with Jerkins:

Interviewer: "I heard you videotaped the Invincible studio sessions. Have you released that yet?"

Rodney: "I'll just say Michael asked me to document everything. And I did. And I'm sure one day it'll see the light of day. I got to make sure it's made in the way Michael would want to see it. "


Source: http://www.vibe.com/mt/2009/09/rodney-jerkins-talks-mjs-last-studio-album-invincible/


So yeah, MJ seemed to have changed his mind since Moonwalker.

 

[kreen]

So any song that MJ sang for which there is no recorded footage is fake? Funny.

By the way, you guys do realize that while staying at the Cascios', MJ was probably not exactly looking his best, in terms of putting on makeup and his wig and everything? There's several pictures in Frank Cascio's book where MJ's nose is all messed up -- not ready for prime time! Not sure he would have liked to be filmed in that situation.

 

[T.N.A.]

So any song that MJ sang for which there is no recorded footage is fake? Funny.

Yes indeed! I'm pretty sure most of the tracks on Dangerous and HIStory are fake. There's just something about them, you know what I mean? Then again, so are all of the tracks which I haven't seen footage from the studio of them being recorded. It actually makes A LOT of sense if you think about it... And yes, that is exactly what everybody here was implying... *obvious sarcasm is obvious*


Here's another quote from Bill Bottrell (who worked with Michael in the studio over the years). It's from the Gearslutz forum.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/4582574-post719.html (single post)

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-m...rked-michael-jacksons-dangerous-album-24.html

I am dying to know, were any of the HIStory recording sessions filmed at all? .....

There was often a hand-held video camera shot by a trusted employee, like Brad. Occasionally, a full film crew would come in, as in the Andre Crouch choir session for "Earth Song"

So yeah, Michael might have said what he said in Moonwalker but then again, everybody lies. Either that or he just changed his mind all of the sudden... Or he just lied about it, no big deal.

 

[teli-mj]

I was actually talking about how people reacted to Michael being accused of child molestation again people said he was guilty without proof, and now we have fans saying it's not him without proof.

What you are bringing as an example are two completely different situations.

 

[André89]

By the way, you guys do realize that while staying at the Cascios', MJ was probably not exactly looking his best, in terms of putting on makeup and his wig and everything? There's several pictures in Frank Cascio's book where MJ's nose is all messed up -- not ready for prime time! Not sure he would have liked to be filmed in that situation.

First of all, I can't really imagine Michael walking around the Cascio home looking messed up and/or bald. The man used to wake up before his wife in order to apply his makeup, for Gods sake. Even in his PJ's, his hair was flawless. He cared about his appearance.

But to be frank, I do not have the faintest idea how Michael looked during these alleged recordings, and neither do you. Point is, the scenario you just described is pure speculation. No one knows how Michael looked during the alleged sessions because there are no pictures. No videos. No handwritten lyrics. No demos. No funny anecdotes or stories from the recording process. Nothing.

I wonder why.

 

[Calisto]

So any song that MJ sang for which there is no recorded footage is fake? Funny.

Straw man.

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

First of all, I can't really imagine Michael walking around the Cascio home looking messed up and/or bald. The man used to wake up before his wife in order to apply his makeup, for Gods sake. Even in his PJ's, his hair was flawless. He cared about his appearance.

But to be frank, I do not have the faintest idea how Michael looked during these alleged recordings, and neither do you. Point is, the scenario you just described is pure speculation. No one knows how Michael looked during the alleged sessions because there are no pictures. No videos. No handwritten lyrics. No demos. No funny anecdotes or stories from the recording process. Nothing.

I wonder why.

Maybe because he was there to work not take pictures or videos or any of that stuff.

And maybe there are hand written lyrics but as a friend Eddie keeps it private or simply does not want to share it, also when he said that his computer broke and there's no files of the songs I understand that why ? Because Sony/MJ estate purchased those songs from him they don't want him to have something that is not his you cannot trust anyone with MJ material look what happened in 2008 with Hold My Hand.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hv9DAiZ5e64" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Also when This Is It was being edited in Sony headquarters there were armed guards outside the doors of the editing room, Sony is taking MJ music and videos serious.

 

[kreen]

No funny anecdotes or stories from the recording process. Nothing.

I wonder why.

Actually, there are funny anecdotes and stories from the sessions : MJ singing in a PVC pipe, recording vocals sitting on a stool in the shower because there wasn't enough room in the basement for all the equipment. Pro-fake people just choose to ignore as lies everything Eddie Cascio says.

I wonder why.