Michael - The Great Album Debate

[144000]

sorry to be blunt but you are dreaming. It's no secret that the music sales have been declining for years and nothing sells as it's used to. Even though a super something is released people are a lot more likely to download it illegally then buying it. Also the world wide sales number is available. Record companies DO know how much copies they printed and sent out. Bad 25 sold 123,000 copies last week, Michael as Sony itself last said several months ago sold 2.5 Million total

But you are all missing the point why the sales number is mentioned on this thread. You might remember one of the main complaints on this thread hasn't only been the "fraudulent" vocals but also the production liberties taken. One side had stated such liberties were normal in posthumous releases , the other side stated it didn't make it acceptable. "Leave the songs as it is" has been a request coming from these discussions. And we have seen Estate go along with this request in Bad25.

This is where the sales numbers of Michael, Immortal and Bad25 comes into play. Not to compare it the sales in the 80s or compare it to the other artists or not to compare the content to other albums. Just plain look into what is selling and what is not selling in posthumous releases in today's world. As I said before their relevance is how the future strategy would be like.

If I was a profit seeking record company executive, I would have changed my focus from the fans (like they did in Bad 25) to the general public (like they did in Michael). I would have finished the songs and made them current with new mixes etc (like they did in Michael) and not leave them incomplete and the way they were decades ago. I would have kept the price low / cheap (less than $10) rather than having boxsets which is expensive.

Of course there's hope that a middle ground can be found such as such releases are accompanied by deluxe editions that also has the songs untouched.

That's what this has been about.

as far as saying i'm dreaming...most great things happen from dreams. that's the way Michael operated. if record companies always operated as you say, they'd be non existent. if Michael Jackson didn't stay in a constant state of dreaming, which he was quoted as saying, Sony wouldn't be where it is, today. record companies cannot know what they are not aware of. nobody knows about people who are not counted officially as consumers. and to predict that everybody will always illegally download, doesn't mean you are going to be right. There are plenty of people out there who support their favorite artist. Again, you said you didn't want to be portrayed as knowing everything.. so..we don't. Outside factors always come into play, that we don't know about. and..by the way, the record company isn't just selling bad 25 cheap. i know there is a version out there that costs over one hundred dollars.

and it is soo not a good idea for a record company not to aim at people who you know will buy MJ music(MJ fans). why would a record company make the critical mistake of not selling to the one group of people who are policing themselves and making an effort NOT to illegally download? i do agree with your middle ground idea of making excuses to keep on re releasing untouched deluxe editions of his classics.

and, to qbee...IMO i think the only good thing coming out of Sony, these days, is that they are making excuses to keep re releasing his seven original albums. these outside demos and stuff can be considered the package surrounding the gift, that can be introduced to multiple generations. although it's hard to believe that Michael was totally out of the loop with those leaked songs. a song like Xscape would be a good one to put on the next project. That sounded like it was a done song and many MJ fans heard it and loved it.

 

[144000]

He didn't say by whom

[youtube]1cym5hwOlm4[/youtube]

yeah..that's funny.

it's pretty bad when i start thinking they all sound the same...i never made that mistake when Michael was overseeing the projects.

 

[AlwaysThere]

I don't agree with you at all. It is your problem that you listened something that was not released. Some thief stole something, put it on the internet and you illegally downloaded it. That is not the reason why those songs should not be released. Those songs are UNRELEASED material, Streetwalker, Fly Away and Todo Mi Amor Eres Tu were already released songs! I would be very happy if they release all those songs on the next album.

Downloading stolen material on the internet for free is illegal and that's why people should pay money for those songs. And amazing songs could never be a "HUGE waste of space". Cascio tracks are HUGE waste of space.

So you're telling me that, of the dozens of leaked songs by Michael widely available online, you've never listened to/downloaded one? Yes, they ARE unreleased material, but it's like spending money on songs that a majority of the fan community had already heard. I'll use an example such as the one Bumper used:

Say you're a casual buyer. You go online and hear the news of a new Michael Jackson album. You're decently excited and plan to purchase the album on its release date. When the track listing finally drops, you take a look. Hey -- don't a few of those songs seem familiar? A quick trip to YouTube discovers that 6 of the 12 songs from the album (going off of Stella's fan made track listing) had already been leaked online. A casual fan would immediately go and take a listen (face it -- if a song by an artist that ISN'T your favorite but you do respect leaks, most people will listen to it), while a HARDCORE fan would probably hold back. In the end, the casual fan realizes that they would be spending $15+ dollars for six songs.

I've purchased EVERY single posthumous release by the Estate up to this point (yes, even the Michael album). But if the track list is composed of mostly leaked songs, I will honestly not spend my money on it. Yes, I understand that the CASUAL fan probably hasn't heard these songs -- hell, a few of my casual friends hadn't even heard You Are Not Alone until I played it for them -- but the fan community would be duped.

1. 2005-9 outtake
2. 2005-9 outtake
3. A Place with No Name
4. I Was the Loser
5. 2005-9 outtake
6. Rodney Jerkins outtake
7. RedOne track
8. Blue Gangsta
9. RedOne track
10. The Future
11. Invincible Outtake
12. Invincible Outtake
13. Slave to the Rhythm (original recording) (Deluxe Bonus Track)
14. Men in Black (Deluxe Bonus Track)
15. RedOne outtake (Deluxe Bonus Track)

THAT is the perfect set up, Blue Gangsta being the ONLY leaked track included (A Place with No Name was only leaked in its 25-second form, and Slave to the Rhythm being the original, untouched recording). It includes a good balance of 2005-9 tracks and Invincible tracks, with a Dangerous throwback for the hardcore fans. This album I would gladly pay whatever amount of money for (within reason).

And the issue with Streetwalker/Fly Away/Todo Mi Amor is the EXACT same as the leaked songs -- even though casual fans haven't heard them (I know casual fans who didn't know these songs existed before Bad 25), the fan community would be paying money for songs they've already heard. And I personally wouldn't spend a single dollar on an album that was built mostly upon already-leaked tracks. Now, if the Estate were to release a SECOND disc called Unrecognized (or something along the lines of that) and included the already-leaked tracks on THAT, I wouldn't have a problem. But on the actual album? No way.

 

[OnirMJ]

So you're telling me that, of the dozens of leaked songs by Michael widely available online, you've never listened to/downloaded one? Yes, they ARE unreleased material, but it's like spending money on songs that a majority of the fan community had already heard. I'll use an example such as the one Bumper used:

Say you're a casual buyer. You go online and hear the news of a new Michael Jackson album. You're decently excited and plan to purchase the album on its release date. When the track listing finally drops, you take a look. Hey -- don't a few of those songs seem familiar? A quick trip to YouTube discovers that 6 of the 12 songs from the album (going off of Stella's fan made track listing) had already been leaked online. A casual fan would immediately go and take a listen (face it -- if a song by an artist that ISN'T your favorite but you do respect leaks, most people will listen to it), while a HARDCORE fan would probably hold back. In the end, the casual fan realizes that they would be spending $15+ dollars for six songs.

I've purchased EVERY single posthumous release by the Estate up to this point (yes, even the Michael album). But if the track list is composed of mostly leaked songs, I will honestly not spend my money on it. Yes, I understand that the CASUAL fan probably hasn't heard these songs -- hell, a few of my casual friends hadn't even heard You Are Not Alone until I played it for them -- but the fan community would be duped.

1. 2005-9 outtake
2. 2005-9 outtake
3. A Place with No Name
4. I Was the Loser
5. 2005-9 outtake
6. Rodney Jerkins outtake
7. RedOne track
8. Blue Gangsta
9. RedOne track
10. The Future
11. Invincible Outtake
12. Invincible Outtake
13. Slave to the Rhythm (original recording) (Deluxe Bonus Track)
14. Men in Black (Deluxe Bonus Track)
15. RedOne outtake (Deluxe Bonus Track)

THAT is the perfect set up, Blue Gangsta being the ONLY leaked track included (A Place with No Name was only leaked in its 25-second form, and Slave to the Rhythm being the original, untouched recording). It includes a good balance of 2005-9 tracks and Invincible tracks, with a Dangerous throwback for the hardcore fans. This album I would gladly pay whatever amount of money for (within reason).

And the issue with Streetwalker/Fly Away/Todo Mi Amor is the EXACT same as the leaked songs -- even though casual fans haven't heard them (I know casual fans who didn't know these songs existed before Bad 25), the fan community would be paying money for songs they've already heard. And I personally wouldn't spend a single dollar on an album that was built mostly upon already-leaked tracks. Now, if the Estate were to release a SECOND disc called Unrecognized (or something along the lines of that) and included the already-leaked tracks on THAT, I wouldn't have a problem. But on the actual album? No way.

I downloaded and heard all of them, but the point is that those songs are unreleased and I want them to be released. I want to pay money for those songs in perfect quality on the official CD. I am a fan and a collector. We are talking about some really amazing songs here like Do You Know Where Your Children Are (one of the best MJ tracks ever in my opinion), Blue Gangsta, Love Never Felt So Good... There are so many amazing songs that have leaked that should be oficially released.

You purchased EVERY single posthumous release by the Estate up to this point (including Immortal which is crap IMO) but you would not spend your money on this wonderful songs that MJ created? I hope the Estate release them as soon as possible, of course mixed with unleaked material.

And about regular people (non-fans) and "casual fans".. Hold My Hand was the biggest hit for them in 2010 although unfinished song leaked 2 years prior. Regular people (non-fans) and "casual fans" don't care about those things and they don't know which song leaked when. If the song is good (and all of these are) they will buy it and listen to it. All those songs are potential hits.

Issue with Streetwalker/Fly Away/Todo Mi Amor is NOT the EXACT same as the leaked songs. That is completely different story. Those songs are previously released songs. And I think they should be on Bad25. Cheater should be on Bad25 too.

 

[WildStyle]

There is not just one single factor that contributed to the lower than expected sales of 'Michael'. It was a number of things all working as one.

1. The underwhelming lead single, featuring more Akon than MJ.

2. The incredibly tacky artwork. Oprah portraits, Prince logo's (which was removed) and all. That thing was just awful IMO.

3. The lame and somewhat embarrassing music video's.

4. The fact that they tried to bill it as a new studio album, and then had material on there from the early 80's to the early 2000's. These weren't the songs that were being worked on or considered for a new album. They were simply songs he chose not to release years ago. There was no Will.I.Am material. No RedOne material.

5. There were only 10 songs.

6. The songs were tampered with in an attempt to modernise them. In most cases, taking too many liberties and going too far outside of Michael's vision (things like auto tune, melodyne etc). The changes made to the songs were in most cases baffling and felt more like the producers trying to insert themselves too much into the mix and have their name in the spotlight as the creative force.

7. The Cascio songs. Simply a giant red stain on this album. Fans were distraught (and still are to this day) over the release of these songs in Michael's name, and the controversy spread far outside of the fan community. Judging by fan forum polls around that time, it seemed to be that the majority of fans felt the songs were not Michael. This turned many fans against the album, and rather than doing their best to help promote the album, they did their best to try to bring it down. I never bought the album and I know I'm far from alone.

 

[AlwaysThere]

I downloaded and heard all of them, but the point is that those songs are unreleased and I want them to be released. I want to pay money for those songs in perfect quality on the official CD. I am a fan and a collector. We are talking about some really amazing songs here like Do You Know Where Your Children Are (one of the best MJ tracks ever in my opinion), Blue Gangsta, Love Never Felt So Good... There are so many amazing songs that have leaked that should be oficially released.

You purchased EVERY single posthumous release by the Estate up to this point (including Immortal which is crap IMO) but you would not spend your money on this wonderful songs that MJ created? I hope the Estate release them as soon as possible, of course mixed with unleaked material.

And about regular people (non-fans) and "casual fans".. Hold My Hand was the biggest hit for them in 2010 although unfinished song leaked 2 years prior. Regular people (non-fans) and "casual fans" don't care about those things and they don't know which song leaked when. If the song is good (and all of these are) they will buy it and listen to it. All those songs are potential hits.

Issue with Streetwalker/Fly Away/Todo Mi Amor is NOT the EXACT same as the leaked songs. That is completely different story. Those songs are previously released songs. And I think they should be on Bad25. Cheater should be on Bad25 too.

I understand that you would like that, as it IS your opinion, but not EVERY fan will feel this way. I was a little P.O'd when I saw that they were including already-released material on disc 2 of Bad 25, because it was three spaces where unheard material could have been added. Yes, I truly think that all of Michael's leaked/unreleased songs are gold, but it would be a waste of money to buy songs that I've already heard just if they were a little bit better quality. I would NOT spend the money on songs that I already have. The issue with the three Bad: Special Edition tracks IS the same as the leaked songs: Streetwalker, Fly Away and Todo Mi Amor were already widely available online (as well as on the Bad: Special Edition album). Michael's leaked songs are ALSO widely available online.

Let me just ask you this. Make only ONE choice; don't combine elements of one choice with another. Let's say that you find out that there is another Michael Jackson album to be released in a few months, and they will be releasing the track listing soon; the album is set to include 12 songs. What would you (along with anyone else who wants to answer this) want more?

1. All twelve tracks (with the exception of one or two) being unheard and unleaked, to be a good refresher to the fan community, as they are all songs that we have not heard head nor tail or before?

OR

2. Five to six tracks included that have already leaked in full online, leaving only six or seven unheard and unleaked songs?

I would without a doubt pick option one. Now of course, we would all kill to have unreleased songs in whatever form (a number of fans went crazy just knowing that Bad 25 had SIX demos). But when it comes to content, more is preferred. I'm honestly thinking about opening a poll to get opinions; not to make you angry or hope that I come out on top, just to see what the community would prefer more.

1. The underwhelming lead single, featuring more Akon than MJ.

I personally think that this could have worked out for the better. Had they taken the Thriller/Bad approach and released a song like Behind the Mask as the second single, it would have been great. (For those of you who don't know what the Thriller/Bad approach is: release a somewhat boring song as the lead single, such as The Girl is Mine or Can't Stop Loving You, then drop a fantastic up-tempo song as single two, such as Billie Jean or Bad.)

2. The incredibly tacky artwork. Oprah portraits, Prince logo's (which was removed) and all. That thing was just awful IMO.

There have been MUCH worse album covers released (not just of Michael's). The artwork didn't matter much to me.

3. The lame and somewhat embarrassing music video's.

Hold My Hand and Behind the Mask were both great IMO, especially Behind the Mask (which called for fan participation). I do agree that Hollywood Tonight was a bit embarassing though.

4. The fact that they tried to bill it as a new studio album, and then had material on there from the early 80's to the early 2000's. These weren't the songs that were being worked on or considered for a new album. They were simply songs he chose not to release years ago. There was no Will.I.Am material. No RedOne material.

Many people have stonewalled the Estate; they don't believe that John Branca or John McClain have what it takes to handle things and won't give up ALL their material until Michael's children, or someone more worthy, takes over. will.i.am was approached about his unreleased material, but he declined because he felt it was disrespectful to release Michael's music without his blessing. RedOne was approached, but he refuses to release his songs with Michael unless all the proceeds of his songs are donated to a worthy charity. But many of these songs WERE considered for a new album while Michael was alive.

Hold My Hand - originally due to be the debut single from Michael's new album.
Hollywood Tonight - last mix was done in October 2008.
(I Like) The Way You Love Me - reworkings took place throughout 2009; one specific one was being shopped around days before Michael died.
Best of Joy - recorded in late 2008/early 2009; easily could have been considered for Michael's new album.

5. There were only 10 songs.

That doesn't matter at all. Some artists nowadays still release 5 to 10 track EPs that sell incredibly well.

6. The songs were tampered with in an attempt to modernise them. In most cases, taking too many liberties and going too far outside of Michael's vision (things like auto tune, melodyne etc). The changes made to the songs were in most cases baffling and felt more like the producers trying to insert themselves too much into the mix and have their name in the spotlight as the creative force.

I personally think that the attempts to modernize the songs were done in good faith, but were a terrible idea. I know many fans were rooting for the untouched demos, but they don't have the same marketing capabilities that the finished versions do, especially to casual fans. The producers of the reworked versions should have been the original producers. (For instance, the reworking of Hold My Hand was done by Akon, who also produced the original track, and that worked out perfectly; however, Hollywood Tonight was originally produced by Brad Buxer and was reworked by Teddy Riley.)

7. The Cascio songs. Simply a giant red stain on this album. Fans were distraught (and still are to this day) over the release of these songs in Michael's name, and the controversy spread far outside of the fan community. Judging by fan forum polls around that time, it seemed to be that the majority of fans felt the songs were not Michael. This turned many fans against the album, and rather than doing their best to help promote the album, they did their best to try to bring it down. I never bought the album and I know I'm far from alone.

Can't say anything more. I totally agree.

 

[kreen]

Wow, the level of denial is strong in this thread.

First, the sales of the "Michael" album WERE disappointing to Sony, as in evidenced by the fact that they shipped 5 million copies, and sold 2.5. The first single barely cracked the Top 40, and no other singles were released. So it underperformed.

Why did it underperform? It pleases the anti-Cascio people to think it's because of those 3 songs, because it validates their opinion that "the people" or "the fans" agree with their position that the songs are fake, and they like to think the Cascios/Sony/the Estate were thus "punished" for their sin of releasing the tracks. But there aren't that many hard-core MJ fans left in the world (they are obviously over-represented on MJ forums), not all of them (despite what the anti-Cascio people like to think) think the songs are fake, and even among those that do think so, many still bought the album. So there's no way that controversy -- which to the general public was a 2-day media item that was just more craziness from the Jackson world -- explains why the album missed expectations by 2.5 million copies.

So WHY did it underperform? I think it's quite simple : by December 2010, the MJ love-in that followed his death was already dying down. If the album had come out in the months following his death, it might have sold more. Of course, some people -- maybe in the tens of thousands -- boycotted the album because of the many reasons cited before, including the Cascio controversy, but not to the extent of 2.5 million copies.

Regarding Bad 25 now. It is not just a flop, it is a HUGE flop. Of course it is a re-release, and must be treated as such. But if I'd told anybody here a few months ago, "you know, that Bad 25 release will only sell 27 000 copies in its first week in the US", you would have all called me crazy. It's not just the regular album : you get a live CD -- the first MJ live CD ever! --, a live DVD, 6 new songs, 3 remixes, etc. You're telling me you're not heartbroken this only sold 27,000 copies?

Of course, maybe the Spike Lee film will spur sales, but I'll go as far as say that ABC would not even have bought the movie if they had known the sales of the album would be so low. I'm pretty sure the Estate didn't not sell ABC on buying the movie by telling them the album would sell 27.000 copies.

 

[Billyjeanplxiv]

I wonder what the last mix of TWYLM sounds like....

 

[OnirMJ]

Wow, the level of denial is strong in this thread.

First, the sales of the "Michael" album WERE disappointing to Sony, as in evidenced by the fact that they shipped 5 million copies, and sold 2.5. The first single barely cracked the Top 40, and no other singles were released. So it underperformed.

Why did it underperform? It pleases the anti-Cascio people to think it's because of those 3 songs, because it validates their opinion that "the people" or "the fans" agree with their position that the songs are fake, and they like to think the Cascios/Sony/the Estate were thus "punished" for their sin of releasing the tracks. But there aren't that many hard-core MJ fans left in the world (they are obviously over-represented on MJ forums), not all of them (despite what the anti-Cascio people like to think) think the songs are fake, and even among those that do think so, many still bought the album. So there's no way that controversy -- which to the general public was a 2-day media item that was just more craziness from the Jackson world -- explains why the album missed expectations by 2.5 million copies.

So WHY did it underperform? I think it's quite simple : by December 2010, the MJ love-in that followed his death was already dying down. If the album had come out in the months following his death, it might have sold more. Of course, some people -- maybe in the tens of thousands -- boycotted the album because of the many reasons cited before, including the Cascio controversy, but not to the extent of 2.5 million copies.

Your level of denial is strong too. Cascio songs are the main reason why the album was a flop. It's not just fans who refused to buy the album. It's not just the fans who knew the songs are fake. This issue was all over the internet, youtube, facebook, newspapers, TV, Oprah Show. People were aware that there might be fake songs on that album. And after hearing Breaking News even the regular public and non-fans realized that those are not just rummors, and that it is something serious.

Why do you keep saying stuff like "anti-Cascio people" when you know that such people don't exist. That is just stupid conclusion created by believers. THERE IS NO "ANTI-CASCIO PEOPLE", THERE ARE ONLY ANTI FAKE SONGS PEOPLE.

If Brad Buxer submitted 12 fake songs (although he would never do that because he is an honest man and a friend of MJ) to the Estate, the situation would be the same. We didn't have anything against Cascio family before Breaking News streamed. Maybe The Jacksons had something against them, but I don't think so. They are, just like us, against fake songs.

 

[Korgnex]

@kreen: 3 million copies were shipped, not 5. MICHAEL sold over 2.5 million as of today.

 

[OnirMJ]

I understand that you would like that, as it IS your opinion, but not EVERY fan will feel this way. I was a little P.O'd when I saw that they were including already-released material on disc 2 of Bad 25, because it was three spaces where unheard material could have been added. Yes, I truly think that all of Michael's leaked/unreleased songs are gold, but it would be a waste of money to buy songs that I've already heard just if they were a little bit better quality. I would NOT spend the money on songs that I already have. The issue with the three Bad: Special Edition tracks IS the same as the leaked songs: Streetwalker, Fly Away and Todo Mi Amor were already widely available online (as well as on the Bad: Special Edition album). Michael's leaked songs are ALSO widely available online.

Let me just ask you this. Make only ONE choice; don't combine elements of one choice with another. Let's say that you find out that there is another Michael Jackson album to be released in a few months, and they will be releasing the track listing soon; the album is set to include 12 songs. What would you (along with anyone else who wants to answer this) want more?

1. All twelve tracks (with the exception of one or two) being unheard and unleaked, to be a good refresher to the fan community, as they are all songs that we have not heard head nor tail or before?

OR

2. Five to six tracks included that have already leaked in full online, leaving only six or seven unheard and unleaked songs?

I would without a doubt pick option one. Now of course, we would all kill to have unreleased songs in whatever form (a number of fans went crazy just knowing that Bad 25 had SIX demos). But when it comes to content, more is preferred. I'm honestly thinking about opening a poll to get opinions; not to make you angry or hope that I come out on top, just to see what the community would prefer more.



I personally think that this could have worked out for the better. Had they taken the Thriller/Bad approach and released a song like Behind the Mask as the second single, it would have been great. (For those of you who don't know what the Thriller/Bad approach is: release a somewhat boring song as the lead single, such as The Girl is Mine or Can't Stop Loving You, then drop a fantastic up-tempo song as single two, such as Billie Jean or Bad.)

Everybody should feel this way because those songs are not released. Those songs deserve to be released. It's not their fault that they leaked. Some thief stole them. And again you shouldn't have listened the leaks if that bothers you. You know that the Estate will release those songs, and when they do I will consider them as new songs. And it would definitively not be a waste of money. A waste of money would be if they release more Cascio songs.

Bad25 CD2 is 59 min long. If they wanted to include more unreleased songs they could have. Streetwalker, Fly Away and Todo Mi Amor Eres To didn't take space on the disc for unheard material. They could have added Cheater and 5 more demos if they wanted to. They have to save unreleased material for the future releases.

I couldn't care less if they release choice 1 or choice 2 because all those songs are unreleased. I would love to have Do You Know Where Your Children Are and Escape on the next album because those 2 are my favourite leaked songs.

 

[OnirMJ]

Hold My Hand and Behind the Mask were both great IMO, especially Behind the Mask (which called for fan participation). I do agree that Hollywood Tonight was a bit embarassing though.

Hollywood Tonight is the best song on that album. And one of the best MJ songs ever in my opinion. Why was it embarassing? The only embarassing thing about Hollywood Tonight was that unneccessary spoken bridge that changed the meaning of the song. Hollywood should have been the first promo single instead of Breaking News and then released as a first single.

 

[Pentum]

Onir, you didn't answer on my question if you had heard Free before it became known when BAD 25 came out.

And HT best song on album? Hmm... Auto tune, copy pasted verses, removed some original vocals, weak BG vocals, lame bridge. A big meh to me. The original demo is great though and shows how huge potentional this song has. I believe MJ could've made this into a classic.

And I wish MJ recorded SW's Free. It's amazing. MJ would've killed it

 

[WildStyle]

Hollywood Tonight has amazing potential as a song, but Teddy butchered it. I've heard a snippet of MJ's demo and it's much better. The original recording quality of the vocal isn't great, but Teddy made it sound even worse. Plus the use of auto tune was just straight disrespectful. If Michael had of finished it, it would have been great.

 

[OnirMJ]

Onir, you didn't answer on my question if you had heard Free before it became known when BAD 25 came out.

And HT best song on album? Hmm... Auto tune, copy pasted verses, removed some original vocals, weak BG vocals, lame bridge. A big meh to me. The original demo is great though and shows how huge potentional this song has. I believe MJ could've made this into a classic.

And I wish MJ recorded SW's Free. It's amazing. MJ would've killed it

I've never said that. Of course I didn't. 144,000 said that.

"Originally Posted by 144,000
i've heard 'Free' before Bad 25 came out. way before."

Agree about everything you said about Hollywood, but it is still my favourite from 'Michael' and the best song on that album in my opinion. I think it is a great song with great story, amazing lyrics, great bass line, catchy chorus, classic MJ. My biggest problem with it is that Teddy changed the meaning of the song.

 

[SoCav]

Hollywood Tonight has amazing potential as a song, but Teddy butchered it. I've heard a snippet of MJ's demo and it's much better. The original recording quality of the vocal isn't great, but Teddy made it sound even worse. Plus the use of auto tune was just straight disrespectful. If Michael had of finished it, it would have been great.

I've heard snippets of the demo too on YouTube and it sounds so much better. It's got a great ominous/mysterious vibe, not unlike tracks like Billie Jean, The Price of Fame and Who Is It.

I still like Hollywood Tonight but it really is sad that a butchered version was released. Apart from the fact that it was still an unnecessary alteration of MJ's original demo, some elements of the mix for the video were better than the album version (the vocals for instance). But I never liked that mix either. The Billie Jean beat was both tacky and mixed badly imo (bad cutting and if I remember correctly, it was lagging behind the rest of the instruments).

I hope the Estate will one day release the original demo.

 

[ivy]

Your level of denial is strong too. Cascio songs are the main reason why the album was a flop. It's not just fans who refused to buy the album. It's not just the fans who knew the songs are fake. This issue was all over the internet, youtube, facebook, newspapers, TV, Oprah Show. People were aware that there might be fake songs on that album. And after hearing Breaking News even the regular public and non-fans realized that those are not just rummors, and that it is something serious.

You are giving too much credit to the public and non-fans. I can assure you that most of them did not care or convinced about authenticity issue. Because although the media reported it they also reported that it was Michael (TMZ and Friedman and so on) or reported Estate / Epic Statements (Oprah). So most of the non-fans / public went with the official statement. To them it was just like "could the vocals not be Michael?" and then "naah it's Michael". Those non-fans and public do not have the knowledge to determine it either way or have the time or investment to try to determine it.

@kreen: 3 million copies were shipped, not 5. MICHAEL sold over 2.5 million as of today.

It sold 2.5 Million as of January 2012. That's when Sony sent me the sales numbers. It could be higher today.

 

[kreen]

Your level of denial is strong too. Cascio songs are the main reason why the album was a flop.

You keep saying that like it's a self-evident truth. It's not like we have census numbers on how many people didn't buy the album because of that controversy. Considering the size of the MJ fan-base (small), the over-representation of the doubters on MJ forums (high), and the importance of this controversy in the "outside" world (minimal), there is no reason to imagine that the Michael album failed to meet expectations because of the Cascio tracks. Even if tens of thousands of people didn't buy the album worldwide because of the controversy, that is nothing when we're talking about an album that sold 2.5 million copies.

Also, don't forget that "all publicity is good publicity": a lot of people must have heard of the album, and possibly bought it, BECAUSE of the controversy.

Some people here really need to realize that as much as this debate CONSUMED the MJ fan community, it died down in the real world after like two days. To the general puiblic, the idea there are fake songs on a MJ album is in the same category as any other crazy MJ rumor, such as that it wasn't him at the TII press conference, or that he faked his own death.

I was shopping on iTunes yesterday, and there is the "Michael" album, still available; an official product for anyone to buy. As far as the world and history is concerned, this is a MJ album with 10 MJ songs on it.

 

[ivy]

^^

ditto

You also need to consider what the public and non-fans were exposed to. It's not like they came to these forums and read these threads.

TMZ and Friedman reported the controversy but at the same time they reported it was Michael and it was just the jealousy and the manipulation of the Jacksons. If the public and the non-fans source was these tabloids they were believed it wasn't true.

Oprah also mentioned the controversy but at the same time read a statement from Epic records confirming the authenticity and presented / played the songs as something Michael loved. Again public had no reason to believe it was true.

Only song perhaps a little bit affected was Breaking News as some of the public tried to listen to it. I know my brother did based on discussions on a Metallica forum and that he was used to be a MJ fan. To this day he has no idea about the names of the allegedly fake songs. My BF is active on rap forums (don't ask why). Monster was a smash hit in rap community - due to 50 cent involvement. They had absolutely no idea that it was one of the questionable songs. I don't think public and non-fans were exposed to this debate or it had much influence on them. At most it was a passing story that there's a controversy accompanied by "nahh it's not true".

Perhaps it had an effect on casual fans but I don't think it would be in the millions. Bad 25 sales showed us that there's perhaps 123,000 hardcore fans around the world. Assuming that all of those fans didn't buy Michael album, I would say the effect of the controversy would be several thousands and not millions.

 

[StellaJackson]

Can we please stop with the anti-Cascio conspiracy theories. There is no such thing. Totally irrelevant where the songs come from. It just so happens that one of the three people involved is Eddie Cascio. I have tremendous respect for the friendship and support that the Cascio family gave Michael over the years. That shouldn't be forgotten and I will always be thankful of them for that. I'm just terribly dissapointed that Eddie sold out and decided to do what he did in order to complete the songs.

Ps - listen to Hollywood Tonight The Reimagining if you can find it. It's as close as possible to the demo and far outstrips Teddy's version.

 

[AlwaysThere]

Hollywood Tonight is the best song on that album. And one of the best MJ songs ever in my opinion. Why was it embarassing? The only embarassing thing about Hollywood Tonight was that unneccessary spoken bridge that changed the meaning of the song. Hollywood should have been the first promo single instead of Breaking News and then released as a first single.

I didn't mean the song; I meant the music video. The song itself IS indeed spectacular, and probably the best song on the album (it's tied with Best of Joy, for me).

So far as Breaking News as a promo single: I'm sure this has been said before, but I think that the release of Breaking News as the first song from the album was to see how the public would react. I'm sure that there was doubt in the Estate's minds regarding the authenticity of the tracks, so they released a Cascio first to see if fans would buy into it or easily recognize Mr. Jason Malachi. The fan community exploded within hours of its release. I don't see why the Estate didn't quickly jump in and rearrange the track listing, even if it meant pushing the release date by a couple of weeks (had the three Cascio tracks been removed, I wouldn't have minded waiting until January 2011 for the album).

As it's been said, the only saving grace of this entire debate is that John Branca confided in a few fans that the Cascios would NOT be used on any future releases. I still call for a complete removal of the tracks from Michael's catalogue.

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

Wow, the level of denial is strong in this thread.

First, the sales of the "Michael" album WERE disappointing to Sony, as in evidenced by the fact that they shipped 5 million copies, and sold 2.5. The first single barely cracked the Top 40, and no other singles were released. So it underperformed.

Why did it underperform? It pleases the anti-Cascio people to think it's because of those 3 songs, because it validates their opinion that "the people" or "the fans" agree with their position that the songs are fake, and they like to think the Cascios/Sony/the Estate were thus "punished" for their sin of releasing the tracks. But there aren't that many hard-core MJ fans left in the world (they are obviously over-represented on MJ forums), not all of them (despite what the anti-Cascio people like to think) think the songs are fake, and even among those that do think so, many still bought the album. So there's no way that controversy -- which to the general public was a 2-day media item that was just more craziness from the Jackson world -- explains why the album missed expectations by 2.5 million copies.

So WHY did it underperform? I think it's quite simple : by December 2010, the MJ love-in that followed his death was already dying down. If the album had come out in the months following his death, it might have sold more. Of course, some people -- maybe in the tens of thousands -- boycotted the album because of the many reasons cited before, including the Cascio controversy, but not to the extent of 2.5 million copies.

Regarding Bad 25 now. It is not just a flop, it is a HUGE flop. Of course it is a re-release, and must be treated as such. But if I'd told anybody here a few months ago, "you know, that Bad 25 release will only sell 27 000 copies in its first week in the US", you would have all called me crazy. It's not just the regular album : you get a live CD -- the first MJ live CD ever! --, a live DVD, 6 new songs, 3 remixes, etc. You're telling me you're not heartbroken this only sold 27,000 copies?

Of course, maybe the Spike Lee film will spur sales, but I'll go as far as say that ABC would not even have bought the movie if they had known the sales of the album would be so low. I'm pretty sure the Estate didn't not sell ABC on buying the movie by telling them the album would sell 27.000 copies.

Actually the singles from "MICHAEL" were not failures

Breaking News: #1 Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs

Hold My Hand: #39 Hot 100

Hollywood Tonight: #1 Dance/Club Play Songs

That is just the U.S charts, and I counted Breaking News as a single since it's a promotional single.

 

[OnirMJ]

You are giving too much credit to the public and non-fans. I can assure you that most of them did not care or convinced about authenticity issue. Because although the media reported it they also reported that it was Michael (TMZ and Friedman and so on) or reported Estate / Epic Statements (Oprah). So most of the non-fans / public went with the official statement. To them it was just like "could the vocals not be Michael?" and then "naah it's Michael". Those non-fans and public do not have the knowledge to determine it either way or have the time or investment to try to determine it.

They have ears and brains. Those songs don't sound like Michael Jackson. And everybody know that, even the believers. And general public and non-fans will believe to their own ears instead blindly believe in everything Estate's statements say.

 

[OnirMJ]

Actually the singles from "MICHAEL" were not failures

Breaking News: #1 Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs

Not true!

"Breaking News" achieved minor success, peaking at number one on Billboard Bubbling Under Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs.

The Bubbling Under R&B/Hip-Hop Singles is a chart composed of 25 positions that represent songs that are making progress to chart on the main R&B/hip-hop chart. Many times, singles halt their progress at this chart and never debut on the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs chart. The Bubbling Under R&B/Hip-Hop Singles chart can also be seen as a 25 position addendum to the chart, but the chart only represents the 25 songs below position #100 that have not yet appeared on the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs chart.

 

[OnirMJ]

I didn't mean the song; I meant the music video. The song itself IS indeed spectacular, and probably the best song on the album (it's tied with Best of Joy, for me).

So far as Breaking News as a promo single: I'm sure this has been said before, but I think that the release of Breaking News as the first song from the album was to see how the public would react. I'm sure that there was doubt in the Estate's minds regarding the authenticity of the tracks, so they released a Cascio first to see if fans would buy into it or easily recognize Mr. Jason Malachi. The fan community exploded within hours of its release. I don't see why the Estate didn't quickly jump in and rearrange the track listing, even if it meant pushing the release date by a couple of weeks (had the three Cascio tracks been removed, I wouldn't have minded waiting until January 2011 for the album).

As it's been said, the only saving grace of this entire debate is that John Branca confided in a few fans that the Cascios would NOT be used on any future releases. I still call for a complete removal of the tracks from Michael's catalogue.

Yeah, I just read your post again. You meant the music video. But I disagree. Hold My Hand was bad in my opinion. Low budget music video - bad promotion. Behind the Mask too. That was not shown on TV once! But it was cool for the fans to participate. Hollywood Tonight was only decent video, although it could have been better and more expensive.

I agree about Breaking News was to see how the public would react. Bad decision.

 

[StellaJackson]

I didn't mean the song; I meant the music video. The song itself IS indeed spectacular, and probably the best song on the album (it's tied with Best of Joy, for me).

So far as Breaking News as a promo single: I'm sure this has been said before, but I think that the release of Breaking News as the first song from the album was to see how the public would react. I'm sure that there was doubt in the Estate's minds regarding the authenticity of the tracks, so they released a Cascio first to see if fans would buy into it or easily recognize Mr. Jason Malachi. The fan community exploded within hours of its release. I don't see why the Estate didn't quickly jump in and rearrange the track listing, even if it meant pushing the release date by a couple of weeks (had the three Cascio tracks been removed, I wouldn't have minded waiting until January 2011 for the album).

As it's been said, the only saving grace of this entire debate is that John Branca confided in a few fans that the Cascios would NOT be used on any future releases. I still call for a complete removal of the tracks from Michael's catalogue.

They didn't do it to test the market. They genuinely thought it was a hit and the type of song fans would want to hear (anti media). They did this despite all the trouble that had been going on behind the scenes for weeks, thinking that it wouldn't erupt into the fan community. But it did, big time and that's why they had a crisis meeting the following day (November 9th) which is where that ridiculous statement came from.

 

[Chamife]

Can we please stop with the anti-Cascio conspiracy theories. There is no such thing. Totally irrelevant where the songs come from. It just so happens that one of the three people involved is Eddie Cascio. I have tremendous respect for the friendship and support that the Cascio family gave Michael over the years That shouldn't be forgotten and I will always be thankful of them for that. I'm just terribly dissapointed that Eddie sold out and decided to do what he did in order to complete the songs.

Ps - listen to Hollywood Tonight The Reimagining if you can find it. It's as close as possible to the demo and far outstrips Teddy's version.

I won't say much about the friendship, because that's not something I can judge. Except that the Cascio children also had much benefit from their friendship with Michael. They traveled around the world and saw a lot of things and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not sure Eddie nor Frank would have achieved very much if it wasn't for their friendship with Michael. It seems (!) the only thing Frank is doing nowadays is promoting his book. So it surely worked both ways.

But again, not commenting too much about it. I can't judge. I only know it doesn't look very good on Frank that he continuously tries to drag Michael's family through the mud. Familyrelations can look different on the outside then what they really are. And loving someone doesn't mean you grant them every wish. On the opposite IMO.

And like you said, Eddie happens to be one of the people involved. Otherwise I wouldn't be mentioning his name in this thread.

And I also believe that the general public isn't aware of the controversy about the vocals. Just another rumour too crazy to be true.

 

[StellaJackson]

Edited.

 

[OnirMJ]

You keep saying that like it's a self-evident truth. It's not like we have census numbers on how many people didn't buy the album because of that controversy. Considering the size of the MJ fan-base (small), the over-representation of the doubters on MJ forums (high), and the importance of this controversy in the "outside" world (minimal), there is no reason to imagine that the Michael album failed to meet expectations because of the Cascio tracks. Even if tens of thousands of people didn't buy the album worldwide because of the controversy, that is nothing when we're talking about an album that sold 2.5 million copies.

Also, don't forget that "all publicity is good publicity": a lot of people must have heard of the album, and possibly bought it, BECAUSE of the controversy.

Some people here really need to realize that as much as this debate CONSUMED the MJ fan community, it died down in the real world after like two days. To the general puiblic, the idea there are fake songs on a MJ album is in the same category as any other crazy MJ rumor, such as that it wasn't him at the TII press conference, or that he faked his own death.

I was shopping on iTunes yesterday, and there is the "Michael" album, still available; an official product for anyone to buy. As far as the world and history is concerned, this is a MJ album with 10 MJ songs on it.

You are missing the point. Cascio tracks are huge stain in Michael Jackson's perfect discography. Majority of hardcore fans will not get over it, they will never forget it, they lost confidence in the Estate and they will not support anything released by the Estate until they remove those songs from MJ's discography, apologize to the fans and clean the mess they created. They will never give up, they will boycott every release and spread the word about fake songs and invite people to boycott. Cascio songs were the turning point in Michael Jackson's posthumous career, nothing will be the same. Those songs triggered all, including poor sales of MICHAEL, Immortal and now Bad 25. Numbers are smaller and smaller with each release. I just hope the Estate will realize that.

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

Not true!

"Breaking News" achieved minor success, peaking at number one on Billboard Bubbling Under Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs.

The Bubbling Under R&B/Hip-Hop Singles is a chart composed of 25 positions that represent songs that are making progress to chart on the main R&B/hip-hop chart. Many times, singles halt their progress at this chart and never debut on the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs chart. The Bubbling Under R&B/Hip-Hop Singles chart can also be seen as a 25 position addendum to the chart, but the chart only represents the 25 songs below position #100 that have not yet appeared on the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs chart.

Oh thank you for correcting that I didn't understand what the "Bubbling" part was.