Michael - The Great Album Debate

Ivy, since you brought the motion up, how trueful is that document? It seems the defense just took the pages from tabloids. If the info is obtained from the official record, then Grace was either fabricating stories, or Michael was in chronic bad shape. I asked the same question in the hearingthread, but people kept saying Grace is a liar. But, can the defense really be that oblivious?I don't trust Grace. But, does it make sense for someone risking being charged criminally just to make herself look good?
 
@stella

there was one video as well but sorry I can't find it now. It was a video of Michael shopping in NJ with Eddie. I somewhat think I saw Grace in that video too. but I'm not sure. she may or may not be there.

The whole point u know how some people says "no one knows" sometimes, if true it might mean that other people "know" the truth actually.

@love is magical at one point they say that it's from her interview with the police andI don't think they are lying about it. because the cops give copies of the interviews to both sides and we haven't seen much of the stuff being written in the tabloids before (such as heavy drug use during the stay with Cascio's). so I think it's from the police interview. but if grace is telling the truth or not is another question.
 
While we are on the subject, a few other tidbits about Michael's stay: he was there from mid August to around November 7th. His first appearance after that was on November 8th for Jesse Jackson's 66th birthday party in LA. He was spotted at a restaurant owned by the Cascio's in Wyckoff New Jersey. I believe that is one of the two restaurants owned by Aldo Cascio. This is their website. http://www.aldosofwyckoff.com/ (She works in a restaurant night and day?) Also, here is a news report from when Michael was spotted at the NJ Halloween Store. I believe this is the first reported sighting of him in NJ, so it's possible that this is what tipped Friedman off at the time. Ignore the typical ignorant comments of the reporters. http://popdirt.com/michael-jackson-makes-a-visit-to-nj-halloween-store/65297/
 
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Oh my god.. look what I just found. Michael wasn't with the cascio's that whole time. http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/jacko_wigs_out_lion_king_ksCPHESbmTjmr7CCpwZXkJ (ignore the disgusting comments.) Look at the date! He was in New York. Here is a pic of him with the cast http://en.michaeljackson.ro/photo/m...e-cast-of-the-lion-king-show-in-new-york(350) That was when he did the photo shoot for L'Uomo Vogue. So he wasn't holled up in their house the whole time like we've been led to believe.
 
If Grace was lying, what's her incentive? I don't ever believe it makes sense to lie to the police? What did she have anything to gain?

well she was fired. she could be a disgruntled ex-employee. she could have exaggerate. it's endless.

also on the other hand she could be telling the truth and it could have been a time period that had drug usage - not saying addict , there could be medical reason, it could be treatment etc. if you think it's true then coming back to this topic , it might have been a factor that might be considered.

Oh my god.. look what I just found. Michael wasn't with the cascio's that whole time. http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/jacko_wigs_out_lion_king_ksCPHESbmTjmr7CCpwZXkJ (ignore the disgusting comments.) Look at the date! He was in New York. Here is a pic of him with the cast http://en.michaeljackson.ro/photo/m...e-cast-of-the-lion-king-show-in-new-york(350) That was when he did the photo shoot for L'Uomo Vogue. So he wasn't holled up in their house the whole time like we've been led to believe.

who made you believe that he was holed in the house? even your earlier posts quoting roger friedman had him in restaurants and shopping in stores (such as for halloween) etc. I haven't seen anyone say that he was holed up the house whole the time.
 
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btw - let me add there's nothing strange about such beliefs. I guess Birchey's issues are pretty much known by this time as he mentioned them on his twitter but before such events he believed "black widow" to be 100% michael and backgrounds to be Michael.

so there had been a third group actually in addition to "not michael" and "michael" groups. this third group believed Michael was doing at least some vocals but to them "how much" and "where" was an issue. and to those people some song were more michael and some were less.

I never said there is anything wrong with that belief. Such group, I put it on the non-believer side because it means that they don't believe MJ sings 100% the lead vocals and that they hear an impostor voice anyway.

As love is magical said, it doesn't matter if you hear 40% or 90 % of fake vocals, what matters is that they tried to deceive us with those fake vocals and lead us to believe that it is MJ when it's not.


By the way I explained this in my earlier post, but apparently you didn't read it or else you wouldn't quote me now and post what you posted. I said that the reason why some people sway from one group to another (the third group) is because they hear both vocals. So they're in between. But again, the fact that they hear one genuine one fake vocal doesn't put them into the believer's group as they believe there is a fake one anyway, which mostly pisses off the non-believers group.

I personally believe that the doubters who say that it's 100% not MJ are so disgusted by even 1% of fake lead vocal that they refuse to consider the songs as genuine.

It's like a hair in the soup. Some people will not see it, some people will see it and remove it and continue eating it and some people will refuse to eat a single further drop of the soup.

In the Cascio soup there are many hairs and I don't feel like eating it at all.


and that's exactly my point. I mean look people sit across their computers and assume that swedien has just recorded with michael for a few months and then put everything aside and didn't listen to michael for years. but the reality is they just don't know. perhaps he listens to michael from break of dawn to sunset, he could have done a lot of detailed examination etc etc. we just don't know. people create scenarios and reject other possible ones if it doesn't fit to them.

I am sorry but behind your computer you assumed the opposite by stating it as a fact Bruce Swedien>fans without knowing if among fans there are also sound engineers, singers, and other experts who don't necessarily come to this forum. So it has nothing to do with fitting one's theory. You actually created your own theory with that inequation although there are many people who worked with Michael too and who are his fans but didn't voice themselves.

What if Seth Riggs contradicted Bruce? How would you equate?
 
So regarding Bruce Swedien there is only ONE source which is the well-known Estate statement?
Bruce NEVER said something in public about it? Or to a newspaper? Or on the internet?
 
The general consensus has been that Michael spent three months in New Jersey. That's what has been implied all along. He didn't.
 
I never said there is anything wrong with that belief. Such group, I put it on the non-believer side because it means that they don't believe MJ sings 100% the lead vocals and that they hear an impostor voice anyway.

As love is magical said, it doesn't matter if you hear 40% or 90 % of fake vocals, what matters is that they tried to deceive us with those fake vocals and lead us to believe that it is MJ when it's not.


By the way I explained this in my earlier post, but apparently you didn't read it or else you wouldn't quote me now and post what you posted. I said that the reason why some people sway from one group to another (the third group) is because they hear both vocals. So they're in between. But again, the fact that they hear one genuine one fake vocal doesn't put them into the believer's group as they believe there is a fake one anyway, which mostly pisses off the non-believers group.

I personally believe that the doubters who say that it's 100% not MJ are so disgusted by even 1% of fake lead vocal that they refuse to consider the songs as genuine.

It's like a hair in the soup. Some people will not see it, some people will see it and remove it and continue eating it and some people will refuse to eat a single further drop of the soup.

In the Cascio soup there are many hairs and I don't feel like eating it at all.

I think the issue is what people hear as the "other vocal". and as I have said multiple times before if you believe the other vocal to be credited on the album (such as Porte) there's nothing fake about it. and as the time goes on with the posthumous albums we will see more of the "additional vocals" to complete the songs.


I am sorry but behind your computer you assumed the opposite by stating it as a fact Bruce Swedien>fans without knowing if among fans there are also sound engineers, singers, and other experts who don't necessarily come to this forum. So it has nothing to do with fitting one's theory. You actually created your own theory with that inequation although there are many people who worked with Michael too and who are his fans but didn't voice themselves.

of course there could be experts among the fan but like you say we haven't seen them come to the forums or even write their expertise any where. so you want to believe there's one forensic musicologist out there that would say "it's not Michael". and I'm saying where is he?

You also know that most of my posts are written on the basic of law and business. stella asked me why fans concerns wasn't given equal importance. I looked to that from the perspective of a business person - they had these people that worked with michael, they had these expert reports so business wise and legal wise they didn't need to give importance to random fans that they didn't even know the names and credentials, when they had the experts on their side.

again look to the recent tribute concert event that the fans have been very vocal but the event still goes on. why? well they have a venue with 75,000 seats, If they sell it they would be achieving what they want - profits. and that's all that matters to them as a business.

the question assumes a perfect world where everyone is seen as equals and their opinions are equally valued. and I'm saying when you step out of a forum and go into the real world of business of law you'll see that doesn't always happen.

What if Seth Riggs contradicted Bruce? How would you equate?

I wouldn't. and I don't need to. If experts of the same caliber are disagreeing it would show me that it's a divided topic and either one is a possibility. I wouldn't act either opinion as a "fact".

and again to be clear I didn't say Swedien's opinion was the absolute truth. I just said that in reality (which includes law) he would have more weight than a random fan. Because in the cases of he said - he said, it's all about the credentials and the expertise of the person.

So regarding Bruce Swedien there is only ONE source which is the well-known Estate statement?
Bruce NEVER said something in public about it? Or to a newspaper? Or on the internet?

acceptance by silence. :) legally you cannot use people's names on the statements without their consent. for example in my line I review books and the publishers ask me to sign a form to allow them publish my name as a reviewer. they can't do that without permission. and even if they do you can ask your name to be removed saying that you didn't give permission. As he never denied the statement or asked to be removed or asked for a redaction / correction, you can be sure that the people mentioned on the statement said what they are reported.
 
well she was fired. she could be a disgruntled ex-employee. she could have exaggerate. it's endless.

also on the other hand she could be telling the truth and it could have been a time period that had drug usage - not saying addict , there could be medical reason, it could be treatment etc. if you think it's true then coming back to this topic , it might have been a factor that might be considered.

True. Grace could be a disgruntled ex-employee. Sometimes, when people are emotional, they may say something they later regret. However, I cannot just assume she lied like many others do because I cannot imagine the level of bitterness she had in order to justify committing a crime (lying to the police). Lying to the media for money and attention is one thing, lying to the poice (she's not involved in any litigation against Michael) is totally different.

Anyway, even if what Grace said is true. It has no bearing to the Murray case. Like you said, drug use does not necessary mean drug addiction. Prescription drug dependency could be resulted from medical reason. If Michael was not physically well during his stay in the Cascio household, then does it make sense that he worked on twelve demos? I guess we can argue it both ways. One can say he's not well enough to even record a single note. Other may say his bad health condition explains the lackluster vocal quality.

I think the issue is what people hear as the "other vocal". and as I have said multiple times before if you believe the other vocal to be credited on the album (such as Porte) there's nothing fake about it. and as the time goes on with the posthumous albums we will see more of the "additional vocals" to complete the songs.

Even there is nothing fake about the songs, there is nothing genuine about the songs. I like the "soup sample" given by Bumpy. We all go to a reputable restaurant hoping to enjoy tasty soup. We place our order and eagerly wait for our soup to come. When the soup comes, some notice there is hair in the soup. We are disappointed. Some think "soup with hair" is better than no soup, so they remove the hair and start eating. Some are grossed out and refuse to eat a spoonful. Some might not even see the hair and eat the hair together with the soup. Some might just accept that the soup is way of life in the imperfect world and keep eating. So, there is nothing fake about soup with hair. It's still soup. But, soup with hair is still a disgrace.
 
Like you said, drug use does not necessary mean drug addiction. Prescription drug dependency could be resulted from medical reason. If Michael was not physically well during his stay in the Cascio household, then does it make sense that he worked on twelve demos? I guess we can argue it both ways. One can say he's not well enough to even record a single note. Other may say his bad health condition explains the lackluster vocal quality.

it's all possibilities. grace might have been there or not. she might know some stuff or not. she might be telling the truth or not. I simply think perhaps there's more to this debate then we know.

plus : if you chose to believe Grace and think his health condition might explain the vocal quality, that might also explain Cascio's unwillingness to explain why. Unlike some other people they don't seem like the people that would go around painting an addict portrait.

Even there is nothing fake about the songs, there is nothing genuine about the songs. I like the "soup sample" given by Bumpy. We all go to a reputable restaurant hoping to enjoy tasty soup. We place our order and eagerly wait for our soup to come. When the soup comes, some notice there is hair in the soup. We are disappointed. Some think "soup with hair" is better than no soup, so they remove the hair and start eating. Some are grossed out and refuse to eat a spoonful. Some might not even see the hair and eat the hair together with the soup. Some might just accept that the soup is way of life in the imperfect world and keep eating. So, there is nothing fake about soup with hair. It's still soup. But, soup with hair is still a disgrace.

the soup example is an "inferior" product. fake is a whole different thing. in this thread people have been accused of fraud - that requires a fake product. If the product isn't fake but also isn't up to your liking that just makes it an inferior product and you can refuse to buy it.
 
it's all possibilities. grace might have been there or not. she might know some stuff or not. she might be telling the truth or not. I simply think perhaps there's more to this debate then we know.

plus : if you chose to believe Grace and think his health condition might explain the vocal quality, that might also explain Cascio's unwillingness to explain why. Unlike some other people they don't seem like the people that would go around painting an addict portrait.

Okay, let's say Grace was truthful. Michael was in bad physical shape during his stay in the Cascio household. For some reasons, Michael managed to record twelve demos. Both Eddie and Michael knew the vocals are not up to par and plan to replace them later. Years later, why Eddie changed his mind and decided to release the vocals recorded when Michael was sick? When people hear the vocals, people would ask questions. The difference is not even subtle. Doesn't it make more sense to let the vocals stay in the vault if the Cascios do not want to give any explanation and paint the addict portrait?

the soup example is an "inferior" product. fake is a whole different thing. in this thread people have been accused of fraud - that requires a fake product. If the product isn't fake but also isn't up to your liking that just makes it an inferior product and you can refuse to buy it.

Of course I can refuse to buy an "inferior" product. By now, I hope you know that I don't accuse people of fraud. I think I have remained quite respectful to the Cascios. I dislike blatant character attack and find such behavior appalling. The reason I am still so upset about this whole thing is because the word "inferior" has never been associated with Michael. In Michael's career, the word "inferior" does not exist. Why are people so upset about the tribute? If fans do not like the organizers, people do not need to buy tickerts. As far as I know, Global Live does not point a gun to fans' heads and forces fans to buy tickets. Why are fans still advocating against the tribute? Because people think the tribute is everything Michael against. It's distasteful. It's disrespectful. It's not doing Michael justice. We all think Michael deserves better. Likewise, I'm as upset about the Cascio songs as the tribute. I see Michael as a human being who made unspeakable sacrifices to his arts. To me, his music is what makes him immortal. It hurts to see what people are doing with his music now. I hope the album Michael is not an indicator of future releases.
 
The voice is too different to be Michaels when he was "sick". I imagine Michael's voice, even when he's sick, would still make us all light up with joy.
 
you already know my explanation of "reality of posthumous releases". previous examples has shown to us that in most cases some questionable and controversial artistic decisions have been made. after hearing Branca saying that there's only materials for 2 albums, Randy Taraborelli saying 17 songs, and Teddy Rily saying that Michael only recording parts (one verse) I don't think there are many complete songs.

Note: complete meaning all the lyrics sang and not finished/ not in final stage ready to be released.

so that makes me think that as the times goes on and more and more songs being released we will see these copy pasted adlibs,vocals and additional vocals thing more and more. and if that happens then all of these songs can be explained by the reality of posthumous releases.

sure inferior products wasn't michael's thing but he's not here to finish the albums and these should not be compared to the works released at his lifetime. I think it was Akon that said that these albums/ videos should be evaluated as "tributes" and not MJ albums. and he's correct. this is not a MJ album because he didn't finish it. for example if Akon has finished Hold My Hand that's Akon's tribute to MJ.


you know how I feel about the tribute and you should also know that I was involved in both statements. If you read it carefully you'll realize that there wasn't any demands and it didn't call for a boycott. Because the realistic in me knew that they could and would do the concert if they ensure the sales, artists and profits and covered themselves from legal ramifications. and that's what I kept referring as "it's life" on this thread. I have been getting the questions of why did they release it against the fan concerns, why don't they show the proof despite of fan concerns etc etc. and that's why because they don't have to and you can't make them. sure you can voice your concerns about these songs just as we did with the tribute but you have to accept that you won't always get what you want just as the tribute hasn't been cancelled.
 
Trust me, I know the reality of posthumous release. I have already lowered my expectation. Frankly, I considered the album versions of Hollywood Tonight and Another Day to be far below Michael's standard. But hey, I still enjoy the songs and consider them to be appropriate posthumous releases.

I don't know if I can wholeheartedly agree with Akon that posthumous release should be viewed as "tribute". Okay, HMH is Akon's tribute to Michael, fine. So, Monster, KYHU and Breaking News are supposedly Eddie Cascio, James Porte and Teddy Riley's tribute to Michael? So, the album Michael is not a Michael Jackson album, but a tribute album? If so, should we still consider Michael to be the lead vocalist, if he's not credited? Isn't it true that it's implied that Michael Jackson was the lead vocalist becasue the album bears his name?

With the recent events, I start to doubt whether people understand what "tribute" means.
 
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hair10.jpg
 
^^^good one... good one... :lmao:

may be you want to replace pentene with l'oreal (the YANA "because you're worth it" gif)
 
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^^^good one... good one... :lmao:

may be you want to replace pentene with l'oreal (the YANA "because you're worth it" gif)

:lol: I wish I could but I didn't make that, I just found it on Google.

Why all this debating? Listen to Burn 2Nite. Debate over.

If you don't want to debate anymore, feel free to leave this thread. You need to understand that not everyone has the same opinion as you.
 
I think you'll find that pretty much everyone is of the opinion that Burn 2 Nite is not Michael. So I think I'll stay. Are the protests still being organised for Cirque? Will it be an outside protest on the opening night or just a dsruption of the show when they play Monster?
 
^^ Do we know for sure that Monster is on the setlist? I wasn't aware of any protests....I've been trying to avoid thinking about them playing that song...I go on November 1st...
 
I think you'll find that pretty much everyome is of the opinion that Burn 2 Nite is not Michael. So I think I'll stay.

Someone's opinion of Burn Tonight does not necessarily reflect someone's opinion of Keep Your Head Up. Stop telling us there is nothing to debate and realise there is, which is why we have a 1087 page thread which still gets posted in daily.
 
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