Latest on MJJC

Michael - The Great Album Debate

I should have thought it was obvious that it's the same idiot singing on all the tracks. Keep your head up is awful. There are no lead vocals from Mj on that song at all.
 
^^ Some may agree and I do but not everyone shares your opinion, I see what your saying though.
 
Cascio soup (you don't (wanna) know what's in it):

IMG_4037.JPG
 
ivy said:
I think the issue is what people hear as the "other vocal". and as I have said multiple times before if you believe the other vocal to be credited on the album (such as Porte) there's nothing fake about it.
Click to expand...

The other vocal if credited is not fake, but the whole album being wrapped as a Michael Jackson album then is.

ivy said:
and as the time goes on with the posthumous albums we will see more of the "additional vocals" to complete the songs.
Click to expand...

Although your statement is completely logical, we are not debating whether it is right or wrong to have additional vocals. We are debating the manner they wrapped the album "Michael". There are three entire songs that are questionable. Nobody is aganist additional vocals when necessary, see the example of Hollywood Tonight, Another Day, etc. So let's not drag into debate another debate and let's focus on what the hell happened to those Cascio songs.

All the unorthodox copy-pastes in those Cascio songs are fabrications and not additional vocals.


ivy said:
of course there could be experts among the fan but like you say we haven't seen them come to the forums or even write their expertise any where. so you want to believe there's one forensic musicologist out there that would say "it's not Michael". and I'm saying where is he?
Click to expand...

You won't ever see one. Because forensic musicologists basically deal with plagiarism issues. Vocal recognition will never be an exact science and not a single serious musicologist could ever claim that the vocals are 100% genuine or fake. The Estate's statement uses exaggerated terms to convince the public opinion that we hear MJ. Their report is absolutely vague.

Curiously they mentioned people who affirm it is Michael and not people who might have said it is not Michael.

As I explained earlier if they have nothing to hide, knowing fans' reactions and scepticism, they should have publish at least a partial forensic detailed report.


ivy said:
You also know that most of my posts are written on the basic of law and business. stella asked me why fans concerns wasn't given equal importance. I looked to that from the perspective of a business person - they had these people that worked with michael, they had these expert reports so business wise and legal wise they didn't need to give importance to random fans that they didn't even know the names and credentials, when they had the experts on their side.
Click to expand...


I never denied they didn't do it for business. I further on said that they actually advertize their own business by sticking Michael Jackson to their product and not the other way round. They use Michael jackson's name for their business, I've always been saying this. Read my first posts about SONY's business strategy.

ivy said:
again look to the recent tribute concert event that the fans have been very vocal but the event still goes on. why? well they have a venue with 75,000 seats, If they sell it they would be achieving what they want - profits. and that's all that matters to them as a business.
Click to expand...

Just like the album "Michael". Fake vocals or not, as long as they are legally protected they go on with projects.

ivy said:
the question assumes a perfect world where everyone is seen as equals and their opinions are equally valued. and I'm saying when you step out of a forum and go into the real world of business of law you'll see that doesn't always happen.
Click to expand...

I am very well aware of that.



ivy said:
I wouldn't. and I don't need to. If experts of the same caliber are disagreeing it would show me that it's a divided topic and either one is a possibility. I wouldn't act either opinion as a "fact".
Click to expand...

But you did stated it a fact Bruce > fans. Fans are not a herd of primitive subhumans with no expertise and no names. If there is a case, you don't know if fans of same caliber as Bruce would give their opinion in court. So I just would be more careful when putting fans into the inferior category of calibers.

ivy said:
and again to be clear I didn't say Swedien's opinion was the absolute truth. I just said that in reality (which includes law) he would have more weight than a random fan. Because in the cases of he said - he said, it's all about the credentials and the expertise of the person.
Click to expand...


See above.



ivy said:
acceptance by silence. :) legally you cannot use people's names on the statements without their consent. for example in my line I review books and the publishers ask me to sign a form to allow them publish my name as a reviewer. they can't do that without permission. and even if they do you can ask your name to be removed saying that you didn't give permission. As he never denied the statement or asked to be removed or asked for a redaction / correction, you can be sure that the people mentioned on the statement said what they are reported.
Click to expand...

Agree. But the question remains though "what exactly did he say?"
 
ivy said:
the soup example is an "inferior" product. fake is a whole different thing. in this thread people have been accused of fraud - that requires a fake product. If the product isn't fake but also isn't up to your liking that just makes it an inferior product and you can refuse to buy it.
Click to expand...

A big no-no. The soup example is not an "inferior" product. Let me explain what I meant by my soup example. First of all I'd name it "deteriorated product". As a matter of fact, you can have the best soup in the world in the best restaurant in the world, but if there is hair in your soup the product becomes deteriorated.

In my analogy with the Cascio soup, I said that their soup is PLENTY of hair. Which means that the product is extremely deteriorated. Indeed, if I hear MJ at moments in their songs I recognize my high quality soup, but from the moment I hear a voice that sounds fake (hair), the soup has been deteriorated for me. What is more, the Cascios are seeling and wrapping the soup as if it was my usual best soup from my best restaurant in the world. That's what makes it fake, i.e. they don't care if there is hair in it or not and make me believe it looks and tastes the same. That's what I said, sorry but for me there are too many hairs in the Cascio soup for me. Those copy pastes are nothing else but fabrication and certainly not additional ad-libs or vocals or what not.
 
Sometimes I feel my musically trained ears are worth nothing as I am not able to differentiate between the "Michael Jackson+James Porte"-supervoice on 6 Cascio songs and the nobody-lamo-voice on Burn 2 Night.

These differences must be extremely subtle.
As far as I know only one person is able to hear the difference.
And that person hears so much difference that the conclusion these are two different persons and not one person singing slightly differnt comes up first.

If you believe Michael Jackson's voice changed and combined with Porte became the Cacio voice - how come the Burn 2 Night voice is out of this Jackson+Porte range? Maybe more Porte this time? Maybe more ... oh, how I love this buzzword ... "processing" ? Maybe more shower, more tube, more buttons, more sickness, more pills, more basement ...

The other way round: I also find it extremely difficult to understand, that when you hear the differences between Malachi and the Cascio singer, the only conclusion is that these are 2 different people. I mean you come with showers, tubes, buttons to explain why MJ sounds so different, but you immediately can tell it's not Malachi due to small timing differences?

Those ears must be worth millions. :bugeyed

And remember: this "MJ+Porte"-supervoice is just a theory presented as fact by some userx :pirate:. Based on nothing. The theory says, words sounding too off MJs voice to explain them by [insert BS excuse], are Porte alone (just like, events we can't explain, are devine miracles) whereas everything that slightly resembles MJ are MJ+Porte mixed and matched so extremely well that it sounds like one voice - in 12 songs. Well ... Burn 2 Night must be mostly Porte then ...

This theory by the way contradicts most of Eddie's, Teddy's and Roger's informations about the songs. :wacko:
 
ivy said:
you already know my explanation of "reality of posthumous releases". previous examples has shown to us that in most cases some questionable and controversial artistic decisions have been made. after hearing Branca saying that there's only materials for 2 albums, Randy Taraborelli saying 17 songs, and Teddy Rily saying that Michael only recording parts (one verse) I don't think there are many complete songs.
Note: complete meaning all the lyrics sang and not finished/ not in final stage ready to be released.
Click to expand...

I am not denying anything, but that just does not sound logical at all. Cascio possesses allegedly 12 tracks and Michael almost as much? We can only speculate here. Time will tell.


ivy said:
so that makes me think that as the times goes on and more and more songs being released we will see these copy pasted adlibs,vocals and additional vocals thing more and more. and if that happens then all of these songs can be explained by the reality of posthumous releases.
Click to expand...


I said it earlier, nobody is questioning that. What is questioned is the lead vocals on the Cascio songs. Burn Tonight sounds from the beginning to the end fake. So why shifting the focus of the debate from "who's singing" to "are there additional vocals to MJ's"? In both cases we should not even ask ourselves these questions if the Estate and SONY were more explicit with credits who deoas what.

ivy said:
sure inferior products wasn't michael's thing but he's not here to finish the albums and these should not be compared to the works released at his lifetime. I think it was Akon that said that these albums/ videos should be evaluated as "tributes" and not MJ albums. and he's correct. this is not a MJ album because he didn't finish it. for example if Akon has finished Hold My Hand that's Akon's tribute to MJ.
Click to expand...


It is not wrapped as such, so that is what irritates some fans. They are pushing the legal obligations to the maximum in order to sell their products. They haven't shown slightest ethics towards the fans. It's purely unexcusable even if they are doing it legally.

"That's life" you'll say. But to me it's more than just "that's life". They're touching, altering and deteriorating MJ's art in an extremely disrespectful manner. Either they clearly state who sang what in a booklet or something and explain to the general public what they did or they don't touch it and release MJ's product unfinished.
 
Last edited:
Grent said:
Sometimes I feel my musically trained ears are worth nothing as I am not able to differentiate between the "Michael Jackson+James Porte"-supervoice on 6 Cascio songs and the nobody-lamo-voice on Burn 2 Night.

These differences must be extremely subtle.
As far as I know only one person is able to hear the difference.
And that person hears so much difference that the conclusion these are two different persons and not one person singing slightly differnt comes up first.

If you believe Michael Jackson's voice changed and combined with Porte became the Cacio voice - how come the Burn 2 Night voice is out of this Jackson+Porte range? Maybe more Porte this time? Maybe more ... oh, how I love this buzzword ... "processing" ? Maybe more shower, more tube, more buttons, more sickness, more pills, more basement ...

The other way round: I also find it extremely difficult to understand, that when you hear the differences between Malachi and the Cascio singer, the only conclusion is that these are 2 different people. I mean you come with showers, tubes, buttons to explain why MJ sounds so different, but you immediately can tell it's not Malachi due to small timing differences?

Those ears must be worth millions. :bugeyed

And remember: this "MJ+Porte"-supervoice is just a theory presented as fact by some userx :pirate:. Based on nothing. The theory says, words sounding too off MJs voice to explain them by [insert BS excuse], are Porte alone (just like, events we can't explain, are devine miracles) whereas everything that slightly resembles MJ are MJ+Porte mixed and matched so extremely well that it sounds like one voice - in 12 songs. Well ... Burn 2 Night must be mostly Porte then ...

This theory by the way contradicts most of Eddie's, Teddy's and Roger's informations about the songs. :wacko:
Click to expand...

In the case of Burn Tonight, MJ's vocals (still to be discovered) are filling Porte's gaps in the song :D That's the explanation.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
You won't ever see one. Because forensic musicologists basically deal with plagiarism issues. Vocal recognition will never be an exact science and not a single serious musicologist could ever claim that the vocals are 100% genuine or fake. The Estate's statement uses exaggerated terms to convince the public opinion that we hear MJ. Their report is absolutely vague.

Curiously they mentioned people who affirm it is Michael and not people who might have said it is not Michael.
Click to expand...

I really want to know whether there is any dissenting opinion. Was it an unanimous affirmation? Unlike the U.S. Supreme Court ruling and the Federal Reserve meeting minutes, the Estate's statement did not mention whether there is any conflicting opinion. The statment led people to believe that all of Michael's collaborators believe the lead vocals are sung by Michael. But, it might not be true.

Regarding musicologists, I agree with you there may not be anybody in the world who is qualified to authenticate the songs. Even after all the resources put into speech recognition technology, there is still a long way to go. The human voice is too dynamic. Singing voice recognition is even more challengiing. I'm of the opinion that the singing voice recognition expert not only needs to be a good electronic scientist, s/he also needs to have a good working knowledge in music, language, and, in our case here, a MichaelJackonologist.

Also, as I mentioned before, the analysis run by the audiologists hired by the Estate is not as reliable as people think. There are many limitations in singing voice recognition. One of the most important criteria is that the vocal samples used need to be clean, high quality a capella. So, I always want to know what materials were given to the audiologists for them to perform their analysis.
 
Guys, I really love your sense of humor. You guys are awesome! I think we really have come a long way. Despite our different opinions, we don't attack one another. I feel the most comfortable in this thread. :huggy:
 
abba_you_can_dance_2_605x.jpg


So Ubisoft has finally done it... C'mon! Not only does it have the same engine and aesthetic, it also has MJ's single glove! It's crazy...
 
love is magical said:
Guys, I really love your sense of humor. You guys are awesome! I think we really have come a long way. Despite our different opinions, we don't attack one another. I feel the most comfortable in this thread. :huggy:
Click to expand...

If you like humor, I just started a new thread with "misheard lyrics" here :D

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/118572-Misheard-lyrics-thread?p=3472849#post3472849


[youtube]MLoBFFs03WU[/youtube]

And for thoise who understand German and Turkish, there is also some written English :D

[youtube]Cz4ARqw1bJk&feature=fvwrel[/youtube]
 
dam2040 said:
Have you ever seen Jason dance? It's SO good :)


This is some of the best dancing I have ever seen,after me of course.
Click to expand...

Here is some snort dance:

[youtube]Gyeper7FrxY&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]m2_l9Y8U8JI&feature=related[/youtube]
 
After the many comparisons of Malachi's songs compared to the Cascio tracks, and then compared to MJ's songs, how can people even still believe it's him? I just can't understand that. I know what i hear and i dont hear MJ at all. Completely different voice. Bruce Swedien can tell me a million times it's MJ..i won't believe it.
 
Staffordshire Bullterrier said:
After the many comparisons of Malachi's songs compared to the Cascio tracks, and then compared to MJ's songs, how can people even still believe it's him? I just can't understand that. I know what i hear and i dont hear MJ at all. Completely different voice. Bruce Swedien can tell me a million times it's MJ..i won't believe it.
Click to expand...

Your guess is as good as ours.
 
Grent said:
Sometimes I feel my musically trained ears are worth nothing as I am not able to differentiate between the "Michael Jackson+James Porte"-supervoice on 6 Cascio songs and the nobody-lamo-voice on Burn 2 Night.

These differences must be extremely subtle.
As far as I know only one person is able to hear the difference.
And that person hears so much difference that the conclusion these are two different persons and not one person singing slightly differnt comes up first.

If you believe Michael Jackson's voice changed and combined with Porte became the Cacio voice - how come the Burn 2 Night voice is out of this Jackson+Porte range? Maybe more Porte this time? Maybe more ... oh, how I love this buzzword ... "processing" ? Maybe more shower, more tube, more buttons, more sickness, more pills, more basement ...

The other way round: I also find it extremely difficult to understand, that when you hear the differences between Malachi and the Cascio singer, the only conclusion is that these are 2 different people. I mean you come with showers, tubes, buttons to explain why MJ sounds so different, but you immediately can tell it's not Malachi due to small timing differences?

Those ears must be worth millions. :bugeyed

And remember: this "MJ+Porte"-supervoice is just a theory presented as fact by some userx :pirate:. Based on nothing. The theory says, words sounding too off MJs voice to explain them by [insert BS excuse], are Porte alone (just like, events we can't explain, are devine miracles) whereas everything that slightly resembles MJ are MJ+Porte mixed and matched so extremely well that it sounds like one voice - in 12 songs. Well ... Burn 2 Night must be mostly Porte then ...

This theory by the way contradicts most of Eddie's, Teddy's and Roger's informations about the songs. :wacko:
Click to expand...

One of the best posts so far. Sums it all up. Nothing but ridiculous excuses as to why these songs sound nothing like Michael yet it can't possibly be Jason because of a few timing or flow differences. Completely ignoring the fact that on these songs, for the first time, Jason is actually trying to fool people. And, as the evidence shows, he did multiple takes of these songs to get it right. We dont have one song from the last forty years of Michael's catalogue where he sounds like he does on these songs. The only place we can find not only an identical vocal, but one that shares all the characteristics of the Cascio vocals is in the music of Jason Cupeta. We are supposed to believe that in less than 10 weeks, Michael recorded his new vocals for WBSS 2008, worked on the new keyboard stuff for For All Time with Eddie, then helped to write and record 12 songs. And record them over and over again, allowing the songs to be cut from multiple takes. He then doesn't leave one single trace of evidence behind that he was involved.
 
Ain't no easy justify, ooh come on and let me light the fire, we can make this burn tonight, rain and thunder when you burn tonight

I'm bored
 
You gotta get your skills ready
The beats ready for you
Oh oh
I can feel the power in my skin
It feels like you've been
Running around bragging for a while
So show my what you've got
Make a love, then tie it with a knot
The powers all in my skin
That's when I know i'm ready 2 Win
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top