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Michael - The Great Album Debate

And also too many melodies taken from previous songs. Not to mention the copy pasted parts from other songs other than those in the middle of the sentences.
 
Ok, i i played Monster for my friends at school. To get their reaction.

Within seconds one of them questioned if that was Michael, and the next one AJ, simply asked "Since when did he sound younger?"
 
The sad thing is what even retribution we get from this trial. It wont bring mike back, and the outcome wont change the fact that he will never moonwalk on this earth again. I keep hoping, and praying that...hes not really dead, and the cascio tracks have evidence, and that mike would be treated fairly in the media and eyes of the public. :/ i believe in miracles, and im waiting for a miracle to happen tonight. Too bad it wont. Sigh. Idk maybe im just ranting but every day a friend of mine disses on mj....i know somefriend...hes like mjs an addict. The news said so. He had alot of different names to get his drugs...honestly i dont know what to say. I tell him hes not an addict and he had some insomnia, and issues sleeping. I tell him to stop listening to one sided media sources....and do his own research. But it hurts me when he says mike was an addict. He wasnt and addict. He wasnt looking for a high. He was looking for a way to escape his troubles, pains and a way to finally get some rest. :/ im still waiting for july to come.
"this is it, and see you in july"
 
^^Billy, don't let the people around you affect you. I know it's difficult. It does take a lot to enlighten people about Michael. The public has been misled by the vicious media for too long. Unfortunately, people are too lazy to think analytically nowadays. They choose the easy way out - eat what the media feeds them, without realizing the news business is for-profit organizations which highest priority is ratings and circulations. Have faith. The truth will slowly unfurl in the future. The people who deliberately lie will disappear one by one. Great artist, like Michael, stays forever. Michael is immortalized by his own arts. Genius is always ridiculed, misunderstood and attacked. The public feels threatened by a genius' difference and talents. But again, have faith. Michael Jackson's place in history is solidified. I totally understand how you feel about the trial. You are absolutely right that no verdict could bring Michael back. But, the significance is a felony conviction. It needs to be official that the doctor's reckless negligence caused tad death of Michael. Not overdose, but deviation of standard of medical care.
 
thiron said:


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This is my table so far. If someone has more infos, arguments, I'd like to hear em :)
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this is nice! i would agree with the birthday boy, you gotta add "similar melodies" to the right side of your chart. Let me let go and monster are practically the same exact song.

Also the fact that they used lyrics/themes from existing mj songs to make it more convincing. then there's also that they released only the first few seconds of breaking news in the first preview (including that aaaoow that i think is michael), and not the questionable vocals. it's almost like they were testing the water.

EDIT: wait, wait, just thought of 2 more you gotta add: "fall in love" and "burn 2nite". nuff said.
 
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I can't sleep for some reason...

... Who likes Tim Curry?

 
Pentum said:
I mean, 3 songs NOT sung by Michael Jackson on his own album??!!
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the minute it's proven with hard proof we'll move it to the news section.

azsummergirl said:
it just seems the board is afraid to take a stand. why should we be good little fans, and stay in our corner for crazy conspiracy theorists?
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it's not that the board is afraid to take stand, it's just because the members aren't in agreement. You don't have to take my word for it. Ask to qbee and ginvid who openly stated that they don't believe the songs to be MJ. They had seen answers to our survey. and they will tell you that opposing views do exist. As I wrote before as much as we got "take a stand" comments, we got "delete and ban that topic for good" comments as well. the reality is that the people that believe the songs and/or have no problems with them is happily spending time on other threads and topics etc.


qbee said:
Just like we dont allow TINI to turn every thread into a conspiracy discussion or belivers to turn every thead into Michael is alive. Or Sony boycotters to bash every kind of merchadise put out for MJ fans. Even now the casico debate comes into other threads to bash new albums - Books etc etc becuase of these 3 songs _ so its best for the fans and peace on the board the Casico song discussions be contained in this forum becuase it does cause arguments, controversy and derails the topic of discussion in other threads on the board.
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and that's the saddest thing. people having fit at Immortal threads or Frank's book threads due to the songs.

Pentum said:
Wow, do even have more believers who are active in this thread anymore?
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no. you can write it's jason 100% a million times and go in circles nonstop. isn't that what you wanted?
 
well maybe if you didn't relegate this thread to the controversy forum, the cascio talk wouldn't be infiltrating other topics.

i'm not advocating going off topic. people should talk about whatever the topic's about, in the thread they're in. those are the rules of this forum, and any other forum, for that matter. how does rightfully labeling this particular topic as what it is rather than controversy affect that?

i agree that people should only talk about these tracks in one thread--it doesn't need to be all over the forum. Same thing with anything else. for example, if you want to talk about the case, it shouldn't be in this thread. so ya, we should only talk about the cascio tracks in here--but it's not a controversy and it shouldn't be labeled as such. if people start going off track in other threads, just do what you would do for anything else--tell them it's OT and move it to the appropriate thread. I don't get what the difference is between this and anything else.

if people don't want to read about the cascio tracks, they don't have to open this debate thread. But this debate thread shouldn't be in the controversy section. that's all i'm saying. it's not a controversy--it's a travesty.

and, not to speak for pentum, but i think what "we wanted" was to not be lied to in the first place.
 
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BUMPER SNIPPET said:
And also too many melodies taken from previous songs. Not to mention the copy pasted parts from other songs other than those in the middle of the sentences.
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Yeah, I forgot about that and will add it. Thanks :) The most adlibs were copy pasted from HIStory/Invincible tracks, weren't they? I can't recall much adlibs that are from the Cascio-leadsinger.




love is magical said:
The table prepared by thiron is more professionally done than any exhibit submitted to court by the Murray defense team. :punk;
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Thats because I didn't ask my secretary to put together the table and having no clue what it means ^^




azsummergirl said:
this is nice! i would agree with the birthday boy, you gotta add "similar melodies" to the right side of your chart. Let me let go and monster are practically the same exact song.

Also the fact that they used lyrics/themes from existing mj songs to make it more convincing. then there's also that they released only the first few seconds of breaking news in the first preview (including that aaaoow that i think is michael), and not the questionable vocals. it's almost like they were testing the water.

EDIT: wait, wait, just thought of 2 more you gotta add: "fall in love" and "burn 2nite". nuff said.
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Yep, I think I'll add the moster/let me let go similarity. And then we have All I Need with the YANA intro. I can't recall a MJ song where he used samples of his own songs/melodies.

And first I thought about adding something like "Hear all 12 songs", but then it would be subjective. I shifted more and more to the doubter's side the more songs leaked. But there are people outside who still don't even begin to doubt after hearing Burn Tonight.


So thanks to the replies :) Does anybody have another argument for the authentic side?
 
WhoIsIt89 said:
Isn't the new thing going around that more songs will be on the new album, accompanied with "proof" (as in images and/or video) showcasing Michael's contributions to the songs?
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The proof is a rumour made up by a fan.

And Pentum, you have my full support. Just ignore the nasty comments.
 
thiron said:
So thanks to the replies :) Does anybody have another argument for the authentic side?
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Do the pros include arguments on the ones making the opinions as well? If so:

The Estate hired the two best forensic musicologists in the world to analyse the songs, and they both confirmed that it was 100% Michael.
The Estate contacted Jason Malachi, and he confirmed that he's not the singer in the Cascio tracks.
The Estate said that six of Michael's engineers (?) confirmed it was him.
The doubters have brainwashed themselves into believing a conspiracy by listening to too many Jason Malachi songs.
The Jackson family planted the seed of doubt into the fans, thus, leading to this whole controversy of allerged fake songs.
Michael was trying a new style of singing.
Michael has his ups and downs in singing as well, he cannot sound 100% perfect all the time.
It's a demo, demos have a tendency to sound bad.
It's a demo, Michael wasn't giving it his best.
The songs were recorded in a basement, which will affect the songs in some way.
A big corporation like Sony would never dare commit a fraud, they'll have a lot more to lose than gain.
The Cascios have work tapes to proof that Michael is singing.
 
wolfrevenant said:
Do the pros include arguments on the ones making the opinions as well? If so:

The Estate hired the two best forensic musicologists in the world to analyse the songs, and they both confirmed that it was 100% Michael.
The Estate contacted Jason Malachi, and he confirmed that he's not the singer in the Cascio tracks.
The Estate said that six of Michael's engineers (?) confirmed it was him.
The doubters have brainwashed themselves into believing a conspiracy by listening to too many Jason Malachi songs.
The Jackson family planted the seed of doubt into the fans, thus, leading to this whole controversy of allerged fake songs.
Michael was trying a new style of singing.
Michael has his ups and downs in singing as well, he cannot sound 100% perfect all the time.
It's a demo, demos have a tendency to sound bad.
It's a demo, Michael wasn't giving it his best.
The songs were recorded in a basement, which will affect the songs in some way.
A big corporation like Sony would never dare commit a fraud, they'll have a lot more to lose than gain.
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I presume your being sarcastic? Because not one of those is a sound argument.
 
I'm trying to make the list as unbiased as possible, so I don't want to hold back arguments for one of the two sides.

@wolfrelevant: Some of these are already included (e.g. recording in basement, MJ was ill, Sony would not do this etc.). I thought about including the message from Sony/Estate with the "we hired the two best forensics and had many former MJ collaborators heard the songs" but I'm not sure about that. Sony never told us who those foresics were, what they did and what came out. But okay, that would be the counterargument^^
Thanks for reply :)
 
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I'm loving this Pros and Cons comparison game. Thiron, thanks for starting it. ;)

Here are my cons:

wolfrevenant said:
Do the pros include arguments on the ones making the opinions as well? If so:

The Estate hired the two best forensic musicologists in the world to analyse the songs, and they both confirmed that it was 100% Michael.
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First, identiy of the two "best" forensic musicologists unknown.

Second, what credentials and experience the forensic musicologists that quality them to be an expert in singing voice recognition? Working musicologists are hired to work on copyright infringement cases most of the time. Singing voice recongnition is still a very elusive discipline.

wolfrevenant said:
The Estate contacted Jason Malachi, and he confirmed that he's not the singer in the Cascio tracks.
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Is Jason Malachi's words absolutely reliable? The Estate's due diligence effort does not equate to investigation effort.

wolfrevenant said:
The Estate said that six of Michael's engineers (?) confirmed it was him.
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Some of Michael's collaborators, such as Rodney Jerkins, expressed doubt.

wolfrevenant said:
The doubters have brainwashed themselves into believing a conspiracy by listening to too many Jason Malachi songs.
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Doubters listen to far more MJ songs than Jason Malachi songs. If anything, doubters, as fans, are more inclinated to believe thes songs are MJ. Who doesn't want more MJ?

wolfrevenant said:
The Jackson family planted the seed of doubt into the fans, thus, leading to this whole controversy of allerged fake songs.
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Many doubters have no idea of the family's tweets prior to listening to Breaking News.

wolfrevenant said:
Michael was trying a new style of singing.
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Could someone educate me about the "new style" featured in the Cascio tracks? I honestly don't recognize any. Just average recycled pop pieces.

wolfrevenant said:
Michael has his ups and downs in singing as well, he cannot sound 100% perfect all the time.
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Does it make sense that Michael would push himself to sing 12 demos if he's sick?
 
thiron said:
Yeah, I forgot about that and will add it. Thanks :) The most adlibs were copy pasted from HIStory/Invincible tracks, weren't they? I can't recall much adlibs that are from the Cascio-leadsinger.


Thats because I didn't ask my secretary to put together the table and having no clue what it means ^^






Yep, I think I'll add the moster/let me let go similarity. And then we have All I Need with the YANA intro. I can't recall a MJ song where he used samples of his own songs/melodies.

And first I thought about adding something like "Hear all 12 songs", but then it would be subjective. I shifted more and more to the doubter's side the more songs leaked. But there are people outside who still don't even begin to doubt after hearing Burn Tonight.


So thanks to the replies :) Does anybody have another argument for the authentic side?
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Michael used more or less the same parts of melody in Is It Scary and Ghosts. However, back in time I also provided the counter argument that it looks rather as a continuation of the song than random copying of the melody. Some artists do that. I gave the example of BROS with their song TOO MUCH and MADLY IN LOVE. But there are also artists like PINK FLOYD and several versions of THE WALL.

In short, the exxaggerated copy-psates of previous melodies isn't justified by any mean.

All I need = you are not alone
Soldier Boy = They Don't care about us
Keep your head up = Earth song (what about us ad-libs)
Water = Heaven can wait
Ready2win = On the line
Alright = Stranger in Moscow
 
Jason has a whiny annoying shaky untrained vocal that is instantly distinguishable, especially once you bond with it for a little while, it has the potential to become a demon and haunt your dreams.

However, Michael's voice is magic and shines light on anything. It's angelic. It sounds far from Jason. MJ was a highly trained top vocalist of the world. He didn't always sound perfect 100%, but like it's been said a hundred thousand times, he always sounded like himself, Michael Jackson.

I believe that if he didn't sound his greatest he would have just sounded more raspy and worn out, not younger whiny and shaky, LESS GRITTY???

He's so distinguishable from Jason that when there's a copy-and-paste it's like "Hey, there was Michael for a split second!" We all notice. None of them sound like they were specifically made for the songs, all of them seem borrowed from previous songs...

It's just all completely ridiculous.
 
Aniram said:
Jason has a whiny annoying shaky untrained vocal that is instantly distinguishable, especially once you bond with it for a little while, it has the potential to become a demon and haunt your dreams.

However, Michael's voice is magic and shines light on anything. It's angelic. It sounds far from Jason. MJ was a highly trained top vocalist of the world. He didn't always sound perfect 100%, but like it's been said a hundred thousand times, he always sounded like himself, Michael Jackson.

I believe that if he didn't sound his greatest he would have just sounded more raspy and worn out, not younger whiny and shaky, LESS GRITTY???

He's so distinguishable from Jason that when there's a copy-and-paste it's like "Hey, there was Michael for a split second!" We all notice. None of them sound like they were specifically made for the songs, all of them seem borrowed from previous songs...

It's just all completely ridiculous.
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I agree. It was disgusting that it was allowed to happen.
 
Aniram said:
He's so distinguishable from Jason that when there's a copy-and-paste it's like "Hey, there was Michael for a split second!" We all notice. None of them sound like they were specifically made for the songs, all of them seem borrowed from previous songs...
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:yes:
 
I'm wondering why we can't mention this is other threads yet it is ok for us to be attacked in other threads?
 
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