Michael - The Great Album Debate

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

play nice, today I wrote "bumper is right". that should be enough for us to be friendly for a day or two. kidding gotta go for now

Funny, it sounds to me like absolute common sense.

Why don't the Jacksons sue? They would if they could. Why can't they?

Common sense? Why they don't sue? Etc.

First of all, you don't sue when you don't have physical proof, it's suicide. So they are intelligent enough to know that suing will ge tthem nowhere FOR THE MOMENT. When you have a difficult case you need time to build it, you don't sue without preparing yourself. So, we don't know if they gave up or not. We kno wnothing what's behind, yet you draw conclusions that they don't do anything. I say, let's wait and see what happens in the coming years, but let's not hastily draw conclusions.

Now, where is your common sense when it comes to the decision not to release the remaining Cascio tracks despite their "proof" that the tracks are authentic? There is no common sense in preferring to hide the proof and NOT release the tracks. Wouldn't be common sense to do the opposite: release both the track sand the proof, that way fans would be happy.

To me this clearly indicates that their proof is extremely shaky as if built on a sandy beach with cards.

@Ivy,

you know I was half-teasing you and that I didn't mean anything personal. Can I post another picture of a monkey to lighten the mood?

 

[Pentum]

@Pentum : Like I told your friend OnirMJ : that was Ford's quote that I was quoting from your own correspondence with him

I take this opportunity to point out how rude doubters tend to be. Stella blasted me with a nice "You make me sick". Now you tell me off with a "I wasn't interested in your opinion".

You guys won't get far in the real world with that attitude...

Aha, then it seemed a bit like a misunderstanding here.

Anyway, I am doing just fine in my personal life, thanks for caring.


@elapentela: Not fully sure what you mea, but if Taryll was the person who sold these fake songs and betraying his uncle, then yes, I would be anti- him

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

@Pentum : Like I told your friend OnirMJ : that was Ford's quote that I was quoting from your own correspondence with him

I take this opportunity to point out how rude doubters tend to be. Stella blasted me with a nice "You make me sick". Now you tell me off with a "I wasn't interested in your opinion".

You guys won't get far in the real world with that attitude...

How far did you get in the real world?

 

[kreen]

Common sense? Why they don't sue? Etc.

First of all, you don't sue when you don't have physical proof, it's suicide. So they are intelligent enough to know that suing will ge tthem nowhere FOR THE MOMENT. When you have a difficult case you need time to build it, you don't sue without preparing yourself. So, we don't know if they gave up or not. We kno wnothing what's behind, yet you draw conclusions that they don't do anything. I say, let's wait and see what happens in the coming years, but let's not hastily draw conclusions.

Now, where is your common sense when it comes to the decision not to release the remaining Cascio tracks despite their "proof" that the tracks are authentic? There is no common sense in preferring to hide the proof and NOT release the tracks. Wouldn't be common sense to do the opposite: release both the track sand the proof, that way fans would be happy.

To me this clearly indicates that their proof is extremely shaky as if built on a sandy beach with cards.

@Ivy,

you know I was half-teasing you and that I didn't mean anything personal. Can I post another picture of a monkey to lighten the mood?

I'm going to make two predictions.

1- All of the Cascio tracks will be released one day, despite what Branca may have unofficially told some fans at an unrelated publicity event.

2- The Jacksons will never sue the Cascios.

Both predictions are based on the same belief : it is MJ on the damn Cascio tracks.

 

[OnirMJ]

@Pentum : Like I told your friend OnirMJ : that was Ford's quote that I was quoting from your own correspondence with him

I take this opportunity to point out how rude doubters tend to be. Stella blasted me with a nice "You make me sick". Now you tell me off with a "I wasn't interested in your opinion".

You guys won't get far in the real world with that attitude...

When you said that MJ was "a wreck" and a "shell of a man" you made me sick too.

 

[kreen]

How far did you get in the real world?

I'm 33 and have been spending hours every week for the past 2 years discussing a bunch of obscure MJ songs with the same 4 or 5 MJ nerds from halfway across the world.

So I'd say I got pretty far in life...

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I'm going to make two predictions.

1- All of the Cascio tracks will be released one day, despite what Branca may have unofficially told some fans at an unrelated publicity event.

2- The Jacksons will never sue the Cascios.

Both predictions are based on the same belief : it is MJ on the damn Cascio tracks.

That will remeain just a blind belief and nothing else. Because everyone in the music industry admitted that the vocals DO sound different than usual. Now, up to you to "believe" whatever you want.

I also heard a rumor that moon is made of cheese.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I'm 33 and have been spending hours every week for the past 2 years discussing a bunch of obscure MJ songs with the same 4 or 5 MJ nerds from halfway across the world.

So I'd say I got pretty far in life...

You didn't answer my question. I asked you in the real world.

 

[kreen]

When you said that MJ was "a wreck" and a "shell of a man" you made me sick too.

Well, you shouldn't take things so personal. It's sad what happened to MJ in the last years of his life, and we all wish he could have lived to 100, in great health, with his grand-kids on his lap. But that's not what happened, and we have to face up to that historical truth.

It's the same with a lot of other superstars, from Edith Piaf to Elvis to Serge Gainsbourg. It's a hard life.

 

[kreen]

You didn't answer my question. I asked you in the real world.

Married with two kids, and a government job. Can't complain. How about you?

Actually, we SHOULD get to know each other a bit better. It's crazy, when you think about it : we've been spending hours talking to each other for two years, and we don't know anything about each other, save a username.

 

[OnirMJ]

Well, you shouldn't take things so personal. It's sad what happened to MJ in the last years of his life, and we all wish he could have lived to 100, in great health, with his grand-kids on his lap. But that's not what happened, and we have to face up to that historical truth.

No, that is again your own "historical truth" like it is your truth in your head that you can hear Michael Jackson on Keep Your Head Up.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Married with two kids, and a government job. Can't complain. How about you?

Actually, we SHOULD get to know each other a bit better. It's crazy, when you think about it : we've been spending hours talking to each other for two years, and we don't know anything about each other, save a username.

Older than you, married with two children, working closely as a forensic with justice, police, and many other governmental and non-governmental bodies + within the state education system. Can't complain either.

 

[StellaJackson]

So what else he could do over there when wasn't busy with kids and business? Probably doing household job as payment for room and board. LOL.

Well as the evidence tells us, he certainly wasn't recording 12 songs. Just because there was a studio nearby doesn't mean he was automatically recording. Michael wasn't a robot for anybody. You might joke about Michael doing house work but in the Oprah interview the Cascio's indeed claimed that Michael did do house work including taking the bins out.

Just out of interest, what are the Jacksons supposed to sue anybody for? How did it negatively affect them unless they bought the album?

 

[ivy]

Just out of interest, what are the Jacksons supposed to sue anybody for? How did it negatively affect them unless they bought the album?

Do not limit yourself to the consumer fraud / deception lawsuits. Jacksons - actually Katherine and MJ's kids- have the unique position of being a beneficiary of the Estate. It's also known that some Jacksons are against Estate executors and looking for ways to remove them. Joe Jackson filed a legal complaint against Executors, 4 Jacksons went after them asking them to resign, claiming "fake and fraudulent" will.

Estate executors can be removed from their position due to a current fraud, mishandling, wrongdoing of the Estate. So it's really interesting to see that this allegedly "fake and fraudulent" songs is not being used against Branca - and Sony, Cascio etc as a co-conspirator in the probate court.

Common sense? Why they don't sue? Etc.

First of all, you don't sue when you don't have physical proof, it's suicide. So they are intelligent enough to know that suing will ge tthem nowhere FOR THE MOMENT. When you have a difficult case you need time to build it, you don't sue without preparing yourself. So, we don't know if they gave up or not. We kno wnothing what's behind, yet you draw conclusions that they don't do anything. I say, let's wait and see what happens in the coming years, but let's not hastily draw conclusions.

Bumper you are right in regards to normal people but I'll again ask have you met Jacksons? Common sense, intelligence, proof and knowing they would get nowhere hasn't really stopped them in other lawsuits. Joe making legal complaints when he has no legal standing, 4 siblings trying their hand at the media when they have no legal standing and statue of limitations has passed, Katherine by the request of other Jacksons filing a lawsuit against AEG when all they have is hearsay and hoping to find evidence from what AEG gives them? sorry but I think if they had even the slightest chance or evidence this would have been something that they pursue.

As for waiting for the years to come - in regards to fraud the statue of limitations is 3 years. There's not much time left if you are thinking about a legal action.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Do not limit yourself to the consumer fraud / deception lawsuits. Jacksons - actually Katherine and MJ's kids- have the unique position of being a beneficiary of the Estate. It's also known that some Jacksons are against Estate executors and looking for ways to remove them. Joe Jackson filed a legal complaint against Executors, 4 Jacksons went after them asking them to resign, claiming "fake and fraudulent" will.

Estate executors can be removed from their position due to a current fraud, mishandling, wrongdoing of the Estate. So it's really interesting to see that this allegedly "fake and fraudulent" songs is not being used against Branca - and Sony, Cascio etc as a co-conspirator in the probate court.



Bumper you are right in regards to normal people but I'll again ask have you met Jacksons? Common sense, proof and knowing they would get no where hasn't really stopped them in other lawsuits. Joe making legal complaints when he has no legal standing, 4 siblings trying their hand at the media when they have no legal standing and statue of limitations has passed, Katherine by the request of other Jacksons filing a lawsuit against AEG when all they have is hearsay and hoping to find evidence from what AEG gives them? sorry but I think if they had even the slightest chance this would have been something that they pursue.

As for waiting for the years to come - in regards to fraud the statue of limitations is 3 years. There's not much time left if you are thinking about a legal action.

One lawsuit is not another. I think that they've been driven emotionally against AEG. That was their priority and honestly they should think before they act. That's what they've been probably advised for the Cascio issue.

I don't see the Cascio issue over at all. Even if it has to take 50 years to dig out the truth, the truth will come to surface eventually, but this won't be put under the rug. People always end up talking. Soldiers do it, NASA workers do it, and when it comes to MJ, with such a fanbase, I doubt it'll be burried forever.

 

[ivy]

I didn't say the issue is over. I clearly pointed out if you are thinking about a legal action. What was the date that Breaking News streamed and 3T went on Twitter saying the songs are fake? October 8th or something like that? That shows that's at least the date they discovered the alleged fraud publicly (probably as reported they raised the issue in private before). So legally they have a year or so left - for a fraud claim.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I didn't say the issue is over. I clearly pointed out if you are thinking about a legal action. What was the date that Breaking News streamed and 3T went on Twitter saying the songs are fake? October 8th or something like that? That shows that's at least the date they discovered the alleged fraud publicly (probably as reported they raised the issue in private before). So legally they have a year or so left - for a fraud claim.

Yes, but let's face it. Even with strong suspicion any lawyer would advise them not to sue anyone as long as they don't build a case. And when you don't have a proof, then it takes time to build a case. You mentioned Erin Brokowich, but I doubt that she did everything in a heartbeat. She at leats had witnesses who were willing to help her build the case. We have nothing actually.

But on the believers side it's the same case. You are left with nothing else but a blind belief in what the official side tells you.

 

[MusicMan26]

Well, all this talk about not having enough evidence to sue - I honestly don't think the other side has any evidence either. So technically if that's the case then they can't really defend themselves (and yes, I know that it's supposed to be the accuser that starts with the evidence).

And besides, Tom Sneddon didn't have any evidence and he sure got a court case going.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Well, all this talk about not having enough evidence to sue - I honestly don't think the other side has any evidence either. So technically if that's the case then they can't really defend themselves (and yes, I know that it's supposed to be the accuser that starts with the evidence).

And besides, Tom Sneddon didn't have any evidence and he sure got a court case going.

I am surprised Tom Sneddon got away actually. He clearly should have been prosecuted for his personal agenda (with tax payers money) against MJ.

 

[Arklove]

Lovey, I see you lurking.... I miss you

 

[Jesta]

Lovey, I see you lurking.... I miss you

I second that!

 

[love is magical]

Miss you all. :huggy:

 

[kreen]

Stella has said only three people need to be involved for the hoax to be possible : Eddie, James and the singer. Well, that's not true. The recordings supposedly took place in a definite time period, and in a definite place -- and this place happens to be the Cascio family's own home.

So everybody living in that home during that definite time period -- the father, the mother, and unless I'm forgetting someone, at least the younger brother and the younger sister -- would have to be aware either of superstar Michael Jackson spending time downstairs with their own son/brother recording music, OR of superstar Michael Jackson living with them but NOT spending time downstairs recording music.

The following discussion CANNOT have happened in 2009 :

Eddie : "Hi mom and dad! Remember when MJ lived with us for several weeks in 2007?"

Mom and dad : "Of course, son."

Eddie : "Remember how he and I never mentioned then he spent time with me recording, and how you never saw him recording in your own home, and how he was always doing other things than recording with me? Well don't be surprised, but I'm coming out with 12 songs he actually recorded with me while you knew he was not recording with me."

Mom and dad : "Oh, sure, son, whatever you say, we believe you."

That's impossible. If there is a hoax, we have to believe that the Cascio family is aware of it, but chooses not to say anything to protect their son. Which is accusing a whole family of upstanding citizens of being party to a crime. And I'm not doing that.

The same logic applies to James and the impersonator. They must have girlfriends, friends, wives, parents. Can you imagine the following dialogue happening in 2009?

James Porte to his girlfriend : "Hey girl, remember the summer of 2007, when I was with you the whole time, doing nothing but watching TV and writing jingles I hoped to sell to Arby's to move out of my apartment?"

Girlfriend : "Sure, honey."

James : "Well don't act surprised, but all that time I was actually spending weeks in a basement studio recording 12 songs with Michael Jackson, despite you remembering from your own personal knowledge that I wasn't."

Girlfriend : "I believe you, honey, after all my memories of you NOT being in a basement for 6 weeks recording with superstar Michael Jackson 2 years ago might be a bit fuzzy..."

Bottom line is : the fact that the hoax is said to have taken place in a definite period in a definite place means that everybody in those three conspirators' circle of relatives, friends and girlfriends who know where they actually were, and what they actually did during that period of time could blow their cover if they chose to. Since none have blown their cover, it means they're all keeping silent. Which is a pretty unbelievable display of loyalty, if you ask me.

 

[WildStyle]

Just finished reading Joseph Vogel's book 'The Man In The Music'. For the most part a very good read. I got the sense that he didn't believe the Cascio tracks were Michael, even though he didn't explicitly give his opinion one way or the other. Can't say it with certainty, but if you read the whole book in context, you get the feeling he at the very least is not convinced.

 

[144000]

Stella has said only three people need to be involved for the hoax to be possible : Eddie, James and the singer. Well, that's not true. The recordings supposedly took place in a definite time period, and in a definite place -- and this place happens to be the Cascio family's own home.

So everybody living in that home during that definite time period -- the father, the mother, and unless I'm forgetting someone, at least the younger brother and the younger sister -- would have to be aware either of superstar Michael Jackson spending time downstairs with their own son/brother recording music, OR of superstar Michael Jackson living with them but NOT spending time downstairs recording music.

The following discussion CANNOT have happened in 2009 :

Eddie : "Hi mom and dad! Remember when MJ lived with us for several weeks in 2007?"

Mom and dad : "Of course, son."

Eddie : "Remember how he and I never mentioned then he spent time with me recording, and how you never saw him recording in your own home, and how he was always doing other things than recording with me? Well don't be surprised, but I'm coming out with 12 songs he actually recorded with me while you knew he was not recording with me."

Mom and dad : "Oh, sure, son, whatever you say, we believe you."

That's impossible. If there is a hoax, we have to believe that the Cascio family is aware of it, but chooses not to say anything to protect their son. Which is accusing a whole family of upstanding citizens of being party to a crime. And I'm not doing that.

The same logic applies to James and the impersonator. They must have girlfriends, friends, wives, parents. Can you imagine the following dialogue happening in 2009?

James Porte to his girlfriend : "Hey girl, remember the summer of 2007, when I was with you the whole time, doing nothing but watching TV and writing jingles I hoped to sell to Arby's to move out of my apartment?"

Girlfriend : "Sure, honey."

James : "Well don't act surprised, but all that time I was actually spending weeks in a basement studio recording 12 songs with Michael Jackson, despite you remembering from your own personal knowledge that I wasn't."

Girlfriend : "I believe you, honey, after all my memories of you NOT being in a basement for 6 weeks recording with superstar Michael Jackson 2 years ago might be a bit fuzzy..."

Bottom line is : the fact that the hoax is said to have taken place in a definite period in a definite place means that everybody in those three conspirators' circle of relatives, friends and girlfriends who know where they actually were, and what they actually did during that period of time could blow their cover if they chose to. Since none have blown their cover, it means they're all keeping silent. Which is a pretty unbelievable display of loyalty, if you ask me.

There are people who have gone to jail out of loyalty to another, by disobeying court laws.

 

[elapentela]

Well as the evidence tells us, he certainly wasn't recording 12 songs. Just because there was a studio nearby doesn't mean he was automatically recording. Michael wasn't a robot for anybody. You might joke about Michael doing house work but in the Oprah interview the Cascio's indeed claimed that Michael did do house work including taking the bins out.

Just out of interest, what are the Jacksons supposed to sue anybody for? How did it negatively affect them unless they bought the album?

Michael was vacuuming too. And practicing his dance steps. However it's absolutely natural and logical to think that his main activity for at least 2 months would be recording if he had an equipment available. Especially when he didn't even had to take his pjs off. He also had his bed in the basement. It was his bedroom over there.

And except Cascios and MJ's children there was Grace living in the house (in the room with children). Plus the teacher was coming to the classroom every day. They could have some informations. They definitely would remember more.

 

[144000]

Michael was vacuuming too. And practicing his dance steps. However it's absolutely natural and logical to think that his main activity for at least 2 months would be recording if he had an equipment available. Especially when he didn't even had to take his pjs off. He also had his bed in the basement. It was his bedroom over there.

And except Cascios and MJ's children there was Grace living in the house (in the room with children). Plus the teacher was coming to the classroom every day. They could have some informations. They definitely would remember more.

it's not logical to decide we know the activity of another, no matter what we hear. we are challenged to keep up with knowing ourselves, let alone someone else.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Ms and Mr Logicmen,

So MJ recorded 12 songs with the Cascios in 2 months and he was so happy with those songs that he didn't feel the need to record more than roughly as many in his entire career after Invincible 2001?

An entire album without worktape or single trace of any kind. Any.

Joseph Vogel writes a serious book about MJ's work, and Eddie refuses to give a single info to him to contribute.

The Estate's and SONY's only proof is a reported anonymous forensic analysis, which means that they don't have any single trace either except a subjective opinion of experts that they actually hide for some obscure reasons. Nobody knows here why they keep the analysis secret, you are all speculating which leads you to believe what they tell you to believe.

Believers explain that James Porte is there to back or strengthen MJ's lead vocals in those songs, yet fail to clearly dissociate and indicate at what moment James Porte sings and at what moment MJ sings. For example in the song "Monster" so far all the believers have seemed to agree that "too bad" line was sung by Michael Jackson. Now all of sudden, according to Korgnex (a believer) the line's sung by James Porte.

Ms & Mr Logicmen,

MJ dies and the only witness to those 12 songs is Eddie and the vocalist? How convenient.

[@Stella, James Porte may have recorded the vocals before or after the lead vocalist recorded his parts, so James Porte may have not witnessed anything at all, studio magic.]

On top of that Eddie's silence is the only option: the less he tells, the less he risks to tell inconsistencies, hence his vague statement about "pushing buttons" and shower anecdote (which actually may have happened during Thriller 25).

Believers, I am sorry to tell you you are left with nothing else but a "belief" with entirely virtual ground and two gurus: Eddie and the Vocalist(s). The doubters questioning is justified and makes sense in a world of vultures around Michael Jackson who was betrayed and milked so many times in his life. Our questioning is called zero tolerance regardless of who came up with those songs: the Cascios, the Jackson family (remember "Opis None"), or more recently the discussion about Ford remix crediting MJ as a lead vocalist.

 

[elapentela]

it's not logical to decide we know the activity of another, no matter what we hear. we are challenged to keep up with knowing ourselves, let alone someone else.

It's logical to predict an activity of someone in different situations. It's natural for a handy man to fix the things around and is natural
for the recording artist to use the recording equipment when there is opportunity. It's like you are a dancer or musician you usually keep busy with your craft all the time because you have to. The same with the athlete. It's logical to think that basketball player who is staying in someone else house (which include a basketball court) will play basketball for recreation.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

It's logical to predict an activity of someone in different situations. It's natural for a handy man to fix the things around and is natural
for the recording artist to use the recording equipment when there is opportunity. It's like you are a dancer or musician you usually keep busy with your craft all the time because you have to. The same with the athlete. It's logical to think that basketball player who is staying in someone else house (which include a basketball court) will play basketball for recreation.

With such an argument MJ would have left behind him many more than a dozen of songs.