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Correction 1: anti-Cascio songs, not anti Cascio people.
Correction 2: so basically you want us to hear MJ's voice by lying to ourselves what we really hear only by accepting your angle without any other proof than some people's claims -- (people who worked on the songs and who are trying to sell the songs)?
deadcarpet
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Maybe. 
Calisto
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Frankyboy5
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Anybody else feel that Xscape is the very opposite of Michael album?
In Michael album, even the three Cascio tracks had musical influence of Michael. (not gonna get into a debate about it here) You could say at least the album was "musically Michael Jackson"
With Xscape, it's the total opposite. Yes, it's Michael's voice, but the overprocessing, I'm really not getting Michael's MUSIC. APWNN remix, as bad as it might be, with the Leave Me Alone bassline it DOES have MJ influence rather than America's influence. But I really can't imagine MJ singing that mix of She Was Lovin' Me or Lovin' You. Demos are definitely a different story, but we're dealing with the normal "Xscape" album. It really is an Xscape from Michael's music...
In Michael album, even the three Cascio tracks had musical influence of Michael. (not gonna get into a debate about it here) You could say at least the album was "musically Michael Jackson"
With Xscape, it's the total opposite. Yes, it's Michael's voice, but the overprocessing, I'm really not getting Michael's MUSIC. APWNN remix, as bad as it might be, with the Leave Me Alone bassline it DOES have MJ influence rather than America's influence. But I really can't imagine MJ singing that mix of She Was Lovin' Me or Lovin' You. Demos are definitely a different story, but we're dealing with the normal "Xscape" album. It really is an Xscape from Michael's music...
WhoIsIt89
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Here's the original question:
So Teddy Riley may have actually seen the forensic musicologist/tests.
Teddy didn't see anything. Dunno why you're posting old tweets since Teddy said much later after the premiere of Breaking News, that he was lied to by the Estate and said that he'd be writing a book to clear his name and tell his side of the story in regards to why he continued working on "Michael" tracks, knowing they weren't Michael at all. Implying the Estate knew much more than they "let him in on", and had him unwillingly working on phony songs.
WhoIsIt89
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Lol be real with yourselves. They used a mere line "all hail the King has risen", and I think that was it. They made no acknowledgement of the singer on the same song, and "his" voice was never heard throughout any of those shows.
And as for, your statement dismissing that Branca telling people the songs won't see any future releases, and other "circumstantial" types of proof, being any indications that the songs are fake and won't be released in the future, I'll tell you this...If they are released in the future, it won't be by Sony Music or The MJ Estate, you can bank on that.
Albion
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Hi sorry I come to this late in the day but I've seen lots of reasons why the songs are considered fake but I'd be really interested to know what the argument is for the songs being Michael. I'm sure there must be something other than Eddie and his family knew Michael really well.
kreen
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Yeah, except that... that's not really what he said. He didn't say "yeah, that's not MJ after all" : instead he spoke in vague, enigmatic terms : "you'll see, I have my reasons, it will all come out".
Again, it's always the same problem : how about people actually coming out and saying what they think, and why? Instead everything is always left to the imagination and open to mysterious interpretation, like somebody in the mafia who's afraid to get whacked by the Godfather, or a wizard in a fantasy movie : "you shall find out the truth if you solve these riddles three".
This is what would allow us to move forward : Teddy Riley saying : "yeah, I always had my doubts regarding the authenticity of those songs, but I was convinced at first by Sony and the Estate. Now that I've thought about it, I realize I was right at first, and shouldn't have defended the songs. They should now be removed from iTunes. And there was never any test done; I lied about that because I didn't want to hurt the project."
But no, that's never what we get. And I think that's what we would have gotten by now -- in spades -- if there really had been a hoax.
kreen
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Yeah, but it's still more royalties for Eddie. Why, WHY would the Estate willingly give even more money to somebody that fooled them? And why, WHY would they include even one second of those fake songs on a second CD if they really live in fear of the fans finally finding proof of the whole fraud?
kreen
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Sorry, but a few months ago, I would have given you a complete run-through of the whole argument from both sides, but I don't have the energy anymore. I've written about it too many times. I realize it's daunting to go through this "monster" thread (hah!), but I guess if you skim over StellaJackson's posts and mine, you'll get a good idea of the reasons invoked by both sides of the "great debate".
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WhoIsIt89;3999163 said:
“Teddy didn’t see anything.” How are you so sure?
I’ve been following this controversy since day one, and nobody has publicly addressed or even really acknowledged Teddy Riley’s personal testimony about the forensic tests. That’s why I finally bothered to post the “old tweets" myself -- to get it out in the open. And yes, Teddy later changed his stance on the songs, but that doesn't just write off everything he said previously.
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deadcarpet
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Well, Jason reacted quickly and got his three new leaked songs removed from Soundcloud.
deadcarpet
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I am not for sure. I just know that the longer a page is on the Internet, the higher the chance it will be able to be saved on the Wayback Machine.
Kapital77
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Oh God, that is' EMBARRASSING. It's in Norway, if I was at that party, I would leave immediately after telling them that song is not Michael Jackson and it's a shame.
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@deadcarpet
So what's the story behind your screen name lol.
So what's the story behind your screen name lol.
WhoIsIt89
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I never said Teddy said "It wasn't Michael after all". I said that's what his tweets implied, stating that he'd clear his name and that he was duped. Which IS pretty much what he said on Twitter before said tweets were deleted.
WhoIsIt89
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Calisto;3999330 said:
That isn't true. It does...Like Katt Williams said about a week ago on Arsenio Hall, if you're driving on a long road, and you hit a pole, that pole negates all of your pleasant driving experience from the miles before you met that pole. It's an analogy just in case you're wondering. Teddy later coming out and changing his stance, and saying he'd clear his name and that he was lied to, negates everything he said that previously endorsed said tracks. Because either way it turns you out to be a liar, neither thing you said can be held as the certain truth of the matter until supporting "proof" of sorts come out.
I know Teddy didn't see any "forensic analyst" and the FBI and all that bullshit. Based on his own statements, based on the statements of those also involved, like Cory Rooney & Taryll Jackson, who both said, that Teddy's initial claims went against whatever actually happened. Corey Rooney also stating that the said names who were there and co-signed the voice being Michael, according to the Estate, never actually said it was Michael at all, he in fact said the quite opposite, also being their himself, stating he doesn't recall such concrete proofs being presented to him or anyone else that it was Michael's voice.
Teddy didn't see shit...AND THE SIMPLE FACT, is this, IF Teddy did witness such hi-tech, discrete, government authentication practices like a FBI backed forensic audio analysis, then how the hell did we get here? How did said tracks pass said forensic test? What DID they actually test? And still where the hell are the results people have been asking for ever since this said forensic audio test was first mentioned by the Estate?
kreen
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You can't just take Cory Rooney's word for it, the same we can't take Teddy's. By the way, Cory's song is now on an official Estate project. Doesn't that make him a hypocrite? First he accuses them of being liars and crooks, now he happily reaps royalties from a project they put together -- even though they've never acknowledged wrongdoing or removed the songs.
ShipOfFools
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If they actually tested the songs, why wouldn't they come out with that evidence? Makes me think, where there's smoke, there's fire...
I wish they had been more careful, rather than trusting, "Oh, it's Michael Jackson on those tracks." If it was MJ, it should be marked officially...so was it? If this wasn't Michael Jackson on the Cascio tracks, surely somebody had to know?
I wish they had been more careful, rather than trusting, "Oh, it's Michael Jackson on those tracks." If it was MJ, it should be marked officially...so was it? If this wasn't Michael Jackson on the Cascio tracks, surely somebody had to know?
deadcarpet
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@deadcarpet
So what's the story behind your screen name lol.
It is my Youtube channel name that I made in 2008.
Since then, deadcarpet has become to mean something that is like the red-carpet but for zombies.
http://phillyfunguide.com/special-events/walk-the-dead-carpet-halloween-event
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=41520
Also, a episode of 1000 Ways To Die is called Deadcarpet. LOL
http://www.spike.com/video-clips/mdetrx/1000-ways-to-die-dead-carpet
AlwaysThere
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I decided to forgo reading through the several pages I missed in the past few weeks. But for those of you believers out there, please read the following and explain to me how these songs are Michael:
The Cascio tracks are not Michael Jackson. Not a single vocal on those songs (of course barring the vocal samples) come from his mouth. Every single iota of "proof" Eddie Cascio or Teddy Riley tried to spew about why they sounded off can be discredited by the simplest of observers. An overview follows:
Almost every song samples a previously-released MJ song, musically OR vocally, ranging from Heartbreak Hotel to Heaven Can Wait, to an extent Michael himself never reached. (He was not 100% original, but he was never this desperate for ideas.) The isolated vocal tracks don't feature any of Michael's trademark finger snaps, music bleeding from the volume he preferred music to play through his headphones, foot stomps, hand claps. The songs are considered blemished demo recordings, even though there are numerous instances in which the vocalist clearly sings with full strength and reaches to the height of his vocal range, as well as the undoubted fact that, vocally, every song is finished. Over the next year and a half, Michael never mentioned the Cascio tracks to anyone he was working with. When he put together songs he planned to work on in London, he suspiciously ommited every Cascio title.
Roger Friedman first reported the songs existence in April 2010, a whole ten months after Michael died, fueled by rumors that Michael's ad libs ("Water, water, water") in This Is It were sourced from an unreleased song. John Branca encouraged their inclusion on Michael, which caused extreme fan backlash across the globe. Numerous family members, collaborators and fans cried foul play. Cory Rooney exposed a lie the estate conjured about everyone at a listening session agreeing that the vocals were real, when, according to him, it was general consensus that they were not. Brad Sundberg, will.i.am, Chucky Klapow, Karen Faye and many others have expressed similar sentiments.
One of Eddie Cascio's first face-saving arguments was that the songs were recorded in less-than-stellar conditions, despite the fact that Michael recorded dozens of songs in hotel rooms with just a microphone placed in a corner and Pro Tools, which is much less equipment than the Angelikson studio acquires. He went on to argue that the songs were recorded without Michael's typical vigorous vocal warm ups with Seth Riggs, which may explain a lack of ability to hit the highest possible note but will not justify the off-putting pronunciation and vocal strength. Teddy Riley later claimed he used Melodyne to fix the existing vocals, which makes little sense: (a) Michael had absolute pitch and, as many have said around the time, was rarely off-key; (b) Michael would not have approved of vocals that were that terribly off pitch; and (c) assuming such vocals did exist, why did the Cascios save them over possible on-key versions? Numerous other excuses have been made, ranging from Michael's health issues affecting his vocals (though it is confusing as to why Michael would record with such health issues) to claims that it is a guide demo, and thus won't feature the trademarks (even though every other guide demo Michael has ever released/that has leaked does), though they were all miscredited.
Fans, meanwhile, did an investigation of their own. Hundreds of audio comparisons putting the Cascio songs against Jason Malachi vocals (both isolated and in his music), and the results were strikingly similar. Interestingly, none of the "believers" have ever attempted such a comparison with Michael's vocals. Eddie Cascio, Jason Malachi and James Porte have all fallen off the face of the earth since the controversy, with the former two attempting to resurrect their careers in the past year or so; the latter has yet to do anything that we are aware of.
I go on to ask the believers, then. With all of this staring us in the face, how in this world can it be claimed that the songs are real?
The Cascio tracks are not Michael Jackson. Not a single vocal on those songs (of course barring the vocal samples) come from his mouth. Every single iota of "proof" Eddie Cascio or Teddy Riley tried to spew about why they sounded off can be discredited by the simplest of observers. An overview follows:
Almost every song samples a previously-released MJ song, musically OR vocally, ranging from Heartbreak Hotel to Heaven Can Wait, to an extent Michael himself never reached. (He was not 100% original, but he was never this desperate for ideas.) The isolated vocal tracks don't feature any of Michael's trademark finger snaps, music bleeding from the volume he preferred music to play through his headphones, foot stomps, hand claps. The songs are considered blemished demo recordings, even though there are numerous instances in which the vocalist clearly sings with full strength and reaches to the height of his vocal range, as well as the undoubted fact that, vocally, every song is finished. Over the next year and a half, Michael never mentioned the Cascio tracks to anyone he was working with. When he put together songs he planned to work on in London, he suspiciously ommited every Cascio title.
Roger Friedman first reported the songs existence in April 2010, a whole ten months after Michael died, fueled by rumors that Michael's ad libs ("Water, water, water") in This Is It were sourced from an unreleased song. John Branca encouraged their inclusion on Michael, which caused extreme fan backlash across the globe. Numerous family members, collaborators and fans cried foul play. Cory Rooney exposed a lie the estate conjured about everyone at a listening session agreeing that the vocals were real, when, according to him, it was general consensus that they were not. Brad Sundberg, will.i.am, Chucky Klapow, Karen Faye and many others have expressed similar sentiments.
One of Eddie Cascio's first face-saving arguments was that the songs were recorded in less-than-stellar conditions, despite the fact that Michael recorded dozens of songs in hotel rooms with just a microphone placed in a corner and Pro Tools, which is much less equipment than the Angelikson studio acquires. He went on to argue that the songs were recorded without Michael's typical vigorous vocal warm ups with Seth Riggs, which may explain a lack of ability to hit the highest possible note but will not justify the off-putting pronunciation and vocal strength. Teddy Riley later claimed he used Melodyne to fix the existing vocals, which makes little sense: (a) Michael had absolute pitch and, as many have said around the time, was rarely off-key; (b) Michael would not have approved of vocals that were that terribly off pitch; and (c) assuming such vocals did exist, why did the Cascios save them over possible on-key versions? Numerous other excuses have been made, ranging from Michael's health issues affecting his vocals (though it is confusing as to why Michael would record with such health issues) to claims that it is a guide demo, and thus won't feature the trademarks (even though every other guide demo Michael has ever released/that has leaked does), though they were all miscredited.
Fans, meanwhile, did an investigation of their own. Hundreds of audio comparisons putting the Cascio songs against Jason Malachi vocals (both isolated and in his music), and the results were strikingly similar. Interestingly, none of the "believers" have ever attempted such a comparison with Michael's vocals. Eddie Cascio, Jason Malachi and James Porte have all fallen off the face of the earth since the controversy, with the former two attempting to resurrect their careers in the past year or so; the latter has yet to do anything that we are aware of.
I go on to ask the believers, then. With all of this staring us in the face, how in this world can it be claimed that the songs are real?
deadcarpet
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Could CJ Livermore aka ICONIC be a possible Cascio vocalist?
deadcarpet
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This one of CJ is of You Are Not Alone. That vibrato is very similar to the Cascio songs. At 4:59 he says, "Say it again." almost exactly like in Ready 2 Win.
kreen
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This is a good overview of the pro-hoax arguments, although you're being a bit selective with the quotes (leaving out for instance the people who say it is MJ, like Greg Phillinganes), but there are problems with it, which is why the issue is not settled.
I don't want to go through all of them, but the fact is that in order to believe this version of events, we have to believe that :
A young man (Eddie Cascio), his family, his friend (James Porte), his significant others, and somebody from the outside (Jason Malachi) all conspired to produce 12 fake Michael Jackson songs, at great risk for their reputations, their future and even their safety and liberty if ever found out -- which they would be, since there were people would could provide an "alibi" for MJ, starting with his oldest son, Prince.
They all did this despite none of them ever having done anything criminal, or even less than ethical regarding Michael Jackson, whom they loved as a personal friend.
Sony and the Estate, being warned of the possibility of a hoax, were either unconcerned with the fact that they were selling to the worldwide public a collection of fake MJ songs, to the point where they lied and made stuff up about supposed tests that never happened, or were so invested in the idea these songs were the real deal that they botched said tests and went ahead with the release.
Despite fans later claiming that the singer on those songs is OBVIOUSLY not MJ, "as any observer can attest", the Estate says that a number of people, having listened to the acapella vocals BEFORE the album's release, i.e. when there was still time to pull the songs , said it indeed was MJ. And despite other people present later saying that this is not how the listening session went down, none of the people thus listed in the statement have bothered to clear their names of their association with what they now say are fake songs. Even people who couldn't be sure it was MJ -- Q, for instance -- still admitted it COULD be MJ, thus showing that fans who later said it sounds NOTHING like MJ are overstating their case -- unless they know MJ's voice better than Bruce Swedien and Quincy Jones.
The people who led the public charge against the vocalist being MJ are Cory Sweeney -- whose song had been LEFT OUT the "Michael" album to leave room for the Cascio tracks -- and MJ's nephews, who had a well-documented and perfectly understandable dislike of the Cascios, and who, as Jacksons, stood to benefit from the Estate being labelled as incomptent fools.
Despite the Jacksons having later pursued a legal case against John Branca and John McClain, claiming that the will investing them of the power to run MJ'S Estate was illegitimate, and despite their allegations (from Jermaine, Jackie, even Paris) that the songs are indeed fake, the Jacksons have dropped this line of attack against the Estate, even refraining from clearly reiterating that the Cascio songs are fake when asked about it on this very forum (interview with Jermaine).
Despite the Estate now knowing either that they were fooled, or that their own criminal fraud (releasing fake MJ songs) has been discovered, they STILL reused those songs on subsequent products (Immortal and the iTunes releases).
Despite the sheer number of people who were co-conspirators in the beginning, took part in the cover-up of the fraud, or now know there was a fraud and a cover-up, nobody thus fas -- not one person -- has spilled the beans, confessed sincerely or inadvertantly, released a smoking gun, launched a lawsuit, or put the claims in front of a judge. In the era of the Internet where EVERYTHING comes out, this is one conspiracy that has managed to stay under wraps.
And I could go on... AlwaysThere, you said MJ didn't tell anyone about the songs before they finally were heard about through Friedman, but Frank Dilleo did say, at the height of the controvery, that he had been on the phone with MJ while he stayed in Jersey and that MJ had told him about the songs. He is a co-conspirator too now? But why? Unless I'm mistaken, in their recent book, the bodyguards say they knew MJ was "working on music" while with the Cascios. And Eddie himself had sent out the songs to be mixed in New York BEFORE MJ's death, and told the engineer that the songs were meant for MJ (they had Porte's vocals on them at that time). What means someone in MJ's camp must have at least told him MJ would look at those songs while in London, unless Eddie knew MJ was going to die!
Well, that's enough for now! Again, none of this proves MJ is on the tracks. But questions like these are why the matter is not so clear-cut as some say.
ShipOfFools
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I guess the question to ask is...
Are they good songs?
I particularly like the Cascio tracks. I used to have Jason's album, and I disliked most, if not all of the songs on that album...yet I like songs like Soldier Boy and All I Need.
Do I believe 100%, one way or the other? Not really. I'm categorizing all the Cascio tracks as Michael Jackson songs, since they are under his name. I can't just go off a hunch, because if I did, I would think some songs from the Invincible period weren't Michael. But I'm not trusting that it's his voice, either.
Are they good songs?
I particularly like the Cascio tracks. I used to have Jason's album, and I disliked most, if not all of the songs on that album...yet I like songs like Soldier Boy and All I Need.
Do I believe 100%, one way or the other? Not really. I'm categorizing all the Cascio tracks as Michael Jackson songs, since they are under his name. I can't just go off a hunch, because if I did, I would think some songs from the Invincible period weren't Michael. But I'm not trusting that it's his voice, either.