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Michael - The Great Album Debate

In simple terms, for me, I think if the songs were legit, there wouldn't just be a small amount of evidence, there'd be quite a bit of it. While not proof, I don't believe that its a coincidence that not a single iota of proof has been shown supporting the authenticity of these tracks. And not to beat a dead horse, but it seems pretty significant to me that there are a dozen full-length tracks without so much as one single phrase that everyone agrees are authentic MJ vocals. There is not one single sentence, verse, chorus, or line of more than three words on these songs that the majority of people in this thread would agree are authentic MJ vocals.

While the fact that no proof has been shown doesn't necessarily mean there is no proof, I have a hard time believing that if any proof at all existed, it wouldn't have been shown when the Cascio family and Teddy Riley appeared on Oprah to discuss the songs. The controversy need not even be mentioned if they had proof - they could have played an outtake from one of the songs, a vocal that sounded like authentic MJ, a photo, or video clip in passing as an anecdote. All they showed was a pillow and a mic stand. That's the opposite of proof or evidence. Also kind of strange how much proof exists for pretty much every other song that's been released thus far. Even on the Michael album, there were handwritten lyrics, notes, etc. for several other songs. Engineers spoke of how MJ recorded Much Too Soon during the HIStory sessions. Neff-U had a voicemail recording of a song that MJ had already released as a demo but wanted to continue pursuing. There are demo recordings of Hollywood Tonight with MJ's spoken voice. There are notes appearing in documentaries with tons of songs MJ had on his radar... not one of them a Cascio track. Teddy Riley, Neff-U and other people's names appear alongside some of the songs. Nowhere is Eddie Cascio or James Porte mentioned.

For me, I could possibly buy the songs as somewhat authentic even if I disregarded what I hear if there were other things to point to the authenticity of the tracks. But there aren't.
 
Superstition said:
In simple terms, for me, I think if the songs were legit, there wouldn't just be a small amount of evidence, there'd be quite a bit of it. While not proof, I don't believe that its a coincidence that not a single iota of proof has been shown supporting the authenticity of these tracks. And not to beat a dead horse, but it seems pretty significant to me that there are a dozen full-length tracks without so much as one single phrase that everyone agrees are authentic MJ vocals. There is not one single sentence, verse, chorus, or line of more than three words on these songs that the majority of people in this thread would agree are authentic MJ vocals.

While the fact that no proof has been shown doesn't necessarily mean there is no proof, I have a hard time believing that if any proof at all existed, it wouldn't have been shown when the Cascio family and Teddy Riley appeared on Oprah to discuss the songs. The controversy need not even be mentioned if they had proof - they could have played an outtake from one of the songs, a vocal that sounded like authentic MJ, a photo, or video clip in passing as an anecdote. All they showed was a pillow and a mic stand. That's the opposite of proof or evidence. Also kind of strange how much proof exists for pretty much every other song that's been released thus far. Even on the Michael album, there were handwritten lyrics, notes, etc. for several other songs. Engineers spoke of how MJ recorded Much Too Soon during the HIStory sessions. Neff-U had a voicemail recording of a song that MJ had already released as a demo but wanted to continue pursuing. There are demo recordings of Hollywood Tonight with MJ's spoken voice. There are notes appearing in documentaries with tons of songs MJ had on his radar... not one of them a Cascio track. Teddy Riley, Neff-U and other people's names appear alongside some of the songs. Nowhere is Eddie Cascio or James Porte mentioned.

For me, I could possibly buy the songs as somewhat authentic even if I disregarded what I hear if there were other things to point to the authenticity of the tracks. But there aren't.
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Not to forget to mention that although the proofs for all other MJ's songs exist, never ever a fan has been questioning them. Even if didn't have any proof about any of the songs we wouldn't need it. But the Cascio story is a different thing.

Look at Xscape, nobody questions the authenticity of the voice. The only questioning fart I heard was about Chicago. But one gotta be crazy to think that Chicago sounds like the voice on the Cascio songs.
 
Just came here to see if us crazy conspiracy fans think theres an impersonator on this new album.........................No.................okay see ya soon, take car
 
kreen said:
This is a good overview of the pro-hoax arguments, although you're being a bit selective with the quotes (leaving out for instance the people who say it is MJ, like Greg Phillinganes), but there are problems with it, which is why the issue is not settled.

I don't want to go through all of them, but the fact is that in order to believe this version of events, we have to believe that :

A young man (Eddie Cascio), his family, his friend (James Porte), his significant others, and somebody from the outside (Jason Malachi) all conspired to produce 12 fake Michael Jackson songs, at great risk for their reputations, their future and even their safety and liberty if ever found out -- which they would be, since there were people would could provide an "alibi" for MJ, starting with his oldest son, Prince.

They all did this despite none of them ever having done anything criminal, or even less than ethical regarding Michael Jackson, whom they loved as a personal friend.

Sony and the Estate, being warned of the possibility of a hoax, were either unconcerned with the fact that they were selling to the worldwide public a collection of fake MJ songs, to the point where they lied and made stuff up about supposed tests that never happened, or were so invested in the idea these songs were the real deal that they botched said tests and went ahead with the release.

Despite fans later claiming that the singer on those songs is OBVIOUSLY not MJ, "as any observer can attest", the Estate says that a number of people, having listened to the acapella vocals BEFORE the album's release, i.e. when there was still time to pull the songs , said it indeed was MJ. And despite other people present later saying that this is not how the listening session went down, none of the people thus listed in the statement have bothered to clear their names of their association with what they now say are fake songs. Even people who couldn't be sure it was MJ -- Q, for instance -- still admitted it COULD be MJ, thus showing that fans who later said it sounds NOTHING like MJ are overstating their case -- unless they know MJ's voice better than Bruce Swedien and Quincy Jones.

The people who led the public charge against the vocalist being MJ are Cory Sweeney -- whose song had been LEFT OUT the "Michael" album to leave room for the Cascio tracks -- and MJ's nephews, who had a well-documented and perfectly understandable dislike of the Cascios, and who, as Jacksons, stood to benefit from the Estate being labelled as incomptent fools.

Despite the Jacksons having later pursued a legal case against John Branca and John McClain, claiming that the will investing them of the power to run MJ'S Estate was illegitimate, and despite their allegations (from Jermaine, Jackie, even Paris) that the songs are indeed fake, the Jacksons have dropped this line of attack against the Estate, even refraining from clearly reiterating that the Cascio songs are fake when asked about it on this very forum (interview with Jermaine).

Despite the Estate now knowing either that they were fooled, or that their own criminal fraud (releasing fake MJ songs) has been discovered, they STILL reused those songs on subsequent products (Immortal and the iTunes releases).

Despite the sheer number of people who were co-conspirators in the beginning, took part in the cover-up of the fraud, or now know there was a fraud and a cover-up, nobody thus fas -- not one person -- has spilled the beans, confessed sincerely or inadvertantly, released a smoking gun, launched a lawsuit, or put the claims in front of a judge. In the era of the Internet where EVERYTHING comes out, this is one conspiracy that has managed to stay under wraps.

And I could go on... AlwaysThere, you said MJ didn't tell anyone about the songs before they finally were heard about through Friedman, but Frank Dilleo did say, at the height of the controvery, that he had been on the phone with MJ while he stayed in Jersey and that MJ had told him about the songs. He is a co-conspirator too now? But why? Unless I'm mistaken, in their recent book, the bodyguards say they knew MJ was "working on music" while with the Cascios. And Eddie himself had sent out the songs to be mixed in New York BEFORE MJ's death, and told the engineer that the songs were meant for MJ (they had Porte's vocals on them at that time). What means someone in MJ's camp must have at least told him MJ would look at those songs while in London, unless Eddie knew MJ was going to die!

Well, that's enough for now! Again, none of this proves MJ is on the tracks. But questions like these are why the matter is not so clear-cut as some say.
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We should really leave the Cascio family out of this, as they never really co-signed anything as much as they denied it. What they did was go on Oprah and tell tales of how Michael got to know them, and the things he'd do while at their house and how their friendship made him feel, and basically other stories of their relationship. All they did was sit and watch, while Eddie explained, or lack thereof, of how these songs came about with he and "Michael". And sat as he and Teddy Riley tried to convince the world, which later proved to be somewhat of a failure, that the voice on the records was legit, 100% Michael Jackson.

I then remember Frank speaking on this loosely in his book, simply saying that all he knew about the records were that he initially began working on them with another artist, which I think may have been James Porte, for his (Porte's) album. And that was pretty much it. So Eddie really has always been in this thing alone. And because of such, the possibility of such a thing happening increases quite a bit because now it's simply on the shoulders of one family member instead of all of them. And quite frankly, like the TLC song goes, "What About Your Friends?", we've all seen former "friends" of Michael for whatever reason do these senseless acts for money.

As far as the bodyguards saying Michael was "working on music with the Cascio's", well he was, and we know this. He worked with Eddie during the Thriller 25 recordings, we know this. At no point did his security guards ever indicate that those 12 songs were actually what they were working on. So how can we assume that it was? Frank Dileo said these things while the album was circulating, he too had a signed agreement with Sony, he too stood to profit from the success of those songs on not only the "Michael" album, but future albums, had these songs did what the Sony & Co intended on these songs doing. He too had a lot to lose had he just admitted to knowing the songs were fake, being Michael's manager and knowing him for as long as he did. Fans would definitely wonder how he was duped like that or lured to believe such a thing, as the voice being Michael's. Also, we've all seen Michael's "list", which features pretty much all the songs he planned to work on in the very near future. I think there may have been maybe more than one of them, and with all these song titles on those lists, which was handwritten by Michael, not one of them is the title of a Cascio song, not ONE. Coincidence? I think not.

And while Cory Rooney, may have had some "ulterior" motive, in your view. He also knew Michael and worked with him on numerous productions and albums. So there's that. Teddy Riley, who only worked with Michael for one album and had a lot of his stuff rejected even with that, would be seen as less of a reliable source when compared to Rooney, I assume. And you say Michael's nephew's have well-documented cases for "hating the Cascio's", I ask you what these "well documented cases" really are, because I don't really recall hearing anything like that, until it was mentioned during the height of this controversy by the supporters of the records. Surely if they're that well documented we'd be more aware of them? Or maybe it's just me whose never heard of these well documented cases of the nephews flat out hating the Cascio's.
 
kreen said:
A young man (Eddie Cascio), his family, his friend (James Porte), his significant others, and somebody from the outside (Jason Malachi) all conspired to produce 12 fake Michael Jackson songs, at great risk for their reputations, their future and even their safety and liberty if ever found out -- which they would be, since there were people would could provide an "alibi" for MJ, starting with his oldest son, Prince.

They all did this despite none of them ever having done anything criminal, or even less than ethical regarding Michael Jackson, whom they loved as a personal friend.
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This is the sole aspect of this case that has never made sense to me, and you've outlined it well. Eddie and Michael were close friends for two decades, that much has been proven through home videos and photos shown on Oprah way back in December 2010. Why in this world would Eddie fabricate twelve songs? The only explanation that I came up with was the world's favorite ulterior motive, money. But still, I can't explain it, so you got me there. Maybe another user could break it down better than I can.

Sony and the Estate, being warned of the possibility of a hoax, were either unconcerned with the fact that they were selling to the worldwide public a collection of fake MJ songs, to the point where they lied and made stuff up about supposed tests that never happened, or were so invested in the idea these songs were the real deal that they botched said tests and went ahead with the release.
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The estate has an extreme lack of material that was first recorded between 2005 and 2009 for a multitude of reasons. When Eddie came forward with the twelve songs purportedly recorded in the summer/fall in 2007, John Branca and John Doelp (of Sony fame) jumped at the opportunity. It was perhaps a situation where the two were blinded by the concept of having newly recorded songs at their disposal, so much so that their judgment was clouded. Let's not forget that the album was delayed one month because John McClain didn't want the Cascios included, and apparently walked away from the project for a short period, only returning under the pretense that he wouldn't have to work on them.

Despite fans later claiming that the singer on those songs is OBVIOUSLY not MJ, "as any observer can attest", the Estate says that a number of people, having listened to the acapella vocals BEFORE the album's release, i.e. when there was still time to pull the songs , said it indeed was MJ. And despite other people present later saying that this is not how the listening session went down, none of the people thus listed in the statement have bothered to clear their names of their association with what they now say are fake songs. Even people who couldn't be sure it was MJ -- Q, for instance -- still admitted it COULD be MJ, thus showing that fans who later said it sounds NOTHING like MJ are overstating their case -- unless they know MJ's voice better than Bruce Swedien and Quincy Jones.

The people who led the public charge against the vocalist being MJ are Cory Sweeney -- whose song had been LEFT OUT the "Michael" album to leave room for the Cascio tracks -- and MJ's nephews, who had a well-documented and perfectly understandable dislike of the Cascios, and who, as Jacksons, stood to benefit from the Estate being labelled as incomptent fools.
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That listening party was entirely fabricated, as far as I'm concerned. There was a significant number of people who came forward to say that the songs didn't sound real, a number that outweighed the amount of people who claimed their authenticity. Jennifer Batten said they didn't sound like Michael. Rodney Jerkins said they didn't sound like Michael. Cory Rooney, Chucky Klapow, Karen Faye, will.i.am, all said that the vocals sounded off. You are accurate in your statement that none of the folks listed in the estate press release have come forward yelling foul play; however, none of them have come forward to say that the statement was true, either. Not a single one of them. At this point, we can only jump off of what Cory Rooney said.

For the record, Rooney actually pulled his song because he was unhappy with the fact that the Cascio tracks were included. Earlier in 2014, Rodney Jerkins even demanded to hear what material would be included on Xscape before he agreed to work on anything. This comes after he tweeted to fans in 2011 that he felt the songs were fake and shouldn't have been released. Even the producers are concerned.

Despite the Estate now knowing either that they were fooled, or that their own criminal fraud (releasing fake MJ songs) has been discovered, they STILL reused those songs on subsequent products (Immortal and the iTunes releases).
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The iTunes releases included every single song released posthumously by the estate. Not including the Cascio tracks would have been an implied admission of guilt, which would have fueled fan speculation more. Additionally, only 50 Cent's rap verse of Monster was included on Immortal; none of the controversial vocals were included.

Despite the sheer number of people who were co-conspirators in the beginning, took part in the cover-up of the fraud, or now know there was a fraud and a cover-up, nobody thus fas -- not one person -- has spilled the beans, confessed sincerely or inadvertantly, released a smoking gun, launched a lawsuit, or put the claims in front of a judge. In the era of the Internet where EVERYTHING comes out, this is one conspiracy that has managed to stay under wraps.
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Very true. But at the same time, not an ounce of proof that suggests that the vocals are Michael has surfaced either. There have been claims of video footage, audio work tapes, plus the ever famous audio comparisons and statements from Michael's collaborators. No one has come forward to support the songs, no proof has leaked. As far as court viable documents are concerned, there is no viable proof in favor of either argument.
 
They were super smart not to include them on the new album.

I also always thought the craziest thing about it was that the Cascio's were so close to Michael and loved him dearly, yes. That's one of the reasons I believed it was truly Michael at first, because I just couldn't understand it. But unfortunately there is no denying that the songs are fake.

My feeling has been that Michael possibly said he'd record the songs someday, or that he would really consider it, for the Cascios. I don't really think it sounds like stuff that Michael would record, considering he turned down a lot of great songs from people like Pharrell that were much better. But since they were close, I could see him being more polite about it and saying he'd consider it. He could have also just plainly said, 'No.' too though, he's Michael Jackson.

But that's what I think is interesting about this. The Cascios could consider them Michael Jackson songs since they were written and intended for him. Just as "Like I Love You" is a 'Michael Jackson' song because Pharrell wrote it for Michael and Michael sang it back to him over the phone. It's not the full truth, but a huge stretch of the truth, basically a lie that in twisted minds could be considered true. If that makes any sense.

So that's why I think maybe the Cascios genuinely believe they are Michael Jackson songs and that it's his 'spirit' singing, or his energy was there, or they basically are him because he was going to record them soon.

However, he never mentioned the Cascio tracks ever. Curious that his note listing all those songs doesn't include anything about them.

Sorry, just kind of rambling my thoughts. But anyway, I'm just super happy they didn't include them on the new album, which they totally could have, but how much do you want to bet that a lot of people behind the scenes on the album were like 'Nope, those are fake.'
 
Why is it so hard to believe that members of the Cascio family could do such a thing to Michael? Michael's whole life story is FILLED with people who claimed to be his friend, only to betray him at some point or another. It's a depressingly long list. I mean, if people close to Michael can say he sexually abused them for money, is it that much of a stretch for people to claim Michael is singing on songs that he really isn't for money?
 
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Not sure why I felt the need to post these...
 
My opinion is they (Eddie, James, etc) had hired someone to record the lead vocal to sound like MJ as a demo/guide for him to hear what he might sound like on the final product if he ended up choosing to record any of their songs. This all being BEFORE he died.

Once he passed, they already had so many songs damn near finished with guide vocals that already sounded enough like MJ himself that most people wouldn't recognize the subtle (and even glaring) differences..

That's why they were so quick to register/copyright these songs right after his death..

Has anyone ever brought this theory up before in here? I've haven't read through every page aha!
 
CrazyVegasMJ said:
My opinion is they (Eddie, James, etc) had hired someone to record the lead vocal to sound like MJ as a demo/guide for him to hear what he might sound like on the final product if he ended up choosing to record any of their songs. This all being BEFORE he died.

Once he passed, they already had so many songs damn near finished with guide vocals that already sounded enough like MJ himself that most people wouldn't recognize the subtle (and even glaring) differences..

That's why they were so quick to register/copyright these songs right after his death..

Has anyone ever brought this theory up before in here? I've haven't read through every page aha!
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This has been already suggested in this thread. :)
 
What about Michael himself was involved in the production and approved of this guide vocalist? If that is the case, the Cascio tracks are still Michael Jackson the same way One More Time is by Daft Punk or Wake Me Up is by Avicii. A lead vocalist does NOT need to be credited. If this is the case, and the vocals were indeed another singer, the ONLY flaw with the Cascio tracks is them crediting the lead vocals to Michael Jackson.
 
Just speculation, but I reckon all he did there was work on some of his Thriller 25 material and maybe heard some Cascio/Porte demos, maybe instrumentals or versions with Porte's vocals. I doubt he sung on any of the material, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of these songs didn't even exist when he was alive. There are 12 songs with complete vocals sung front to back, almost all of them more complete than some of the songs that appear on Michael and Xscape. He probably listened to some of their ideas and maybe offered some input.
 
Yeah, but why did they had access to Michael's Studio Acapellas?
I hear stolen audio samples, like "Doggone!" or "Huh!"
 
Same reason we'd be able to access them. A lot of them are all over the internet. It isn't out of the realm of possibility that that's what they could've resulted to.

Not saying that's what happened, just saying it could be. I remember reading earlier during this controversy, that Eddie had always had possession of some of Michael's masters or something like that.
 
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^Also remember that Stuart Brawley, who previously worked on Invincible, collaborated on the Cascio tracks with Eddie & co
 
Also, there are so many vocal takes, even on Monster,
in the end (the adlibs)
there is a section, where the singer probably had one take for
"Mons-", and one for "-ster".

Also, at the beginning, (BTW, i'm talking about the Monster Demo which was uploaded on YouTube lately)
there is an oddly pitched breathing sound.
 
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CrazyVegasMJ said:
My opinion is they (Eddie, James, etc) had hired someone to record the lead vocal to sound like MJ as a demo/guide for him to hear what he might sound like on the final product if he ended up choosing to record any of their songs. This all being BEFORE he died.

Once he passed, they already had so many songs damn near finished with guide vocals that already sounded enough like MJ himself that most people wouldn't recognize the subtle (and even glaring) differences..

That's why they were so quick to register/copyright these songs right after his death..

Has anyone ever brought this theory up before in here? I've haven't read through every page aha!
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During the 2005 trial in Santa Maria, myself and several fans listened to a 'demo' that was being played by a friend of Michaels. We were told that Michael would record the song as a thank you to the fans (the song talked about the strength that Michael had gained from the fans). It sounded A LOT like Michael singing but we were assured it wasn't.

My point being that it is very plausible that songs intended for Michael would have been pre recorded using soundalikes... x x
 
OMG, i can't believe that i actually will say that, but:
After i carefully listened to Monster on my new Headphones, i realized that the vocals actually sounding like Michael, but with a higher pitch.
I know, that you will ridicule me for that, but i believe those are actually his vocals on the song.
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After re-listening, i don't believe it's him anymore ;) :blush:
 
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Chris Cadman said:
Creo con todo mi corazón que él nunca hubiera publicado estos temas. Siempre he disfrutado con su música y compraré por ello el disco. Pero creo que hay tres temas con voces falsas. Que triste es que hayan permitido esto. Vergonzoso, vergonzoso, vergonzoso. A la hora de actualizar For the Record tendremos que añadirlas, pero lo haremos acompañadas de nuestra honesta opinión. Recuerdo cuando murió Bruce Lee y había miles de imitadores intentando copiarle, esos temas falsos me recuerdan un poco a aquello.
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Does anyone remember the date Chris Cadman posted this?
 
Just posted on TMZ:
Michael Jackson -- Fan Sues Estate ... I Don't Hear Enough MJ on His Disc

One irate Michael Jackson fan is suing his Estate because she thinks MJ was not the lead singer on 3 of his songs on the 2010 CD, "Michael" ... the first release after his death. The woman filed the suit today in L.A. claiming she bought the disc in 2011, but didn't hear enough Michael on 3 particular tracks. In the suit she claims she hired an audio expert to analyze her CD and he determined it was very likely that MJ did not sing lead vocals on "Breaking News" ... "Monster" ... and "Keep Your Head Up." The woman wants this to be a class action -- meaning if the allegation is true the Estate would owe money to everyone who bought the full album, or any of the 3 tracks in question. The Estate's lawyer, Howard Weitzman, has previously said Michael did provide lead vocals for all the tracks on the album.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2014/06/12/michael-jackson-album-lawsuit-estate-lead-vocals/#ixzz34VjfieGj
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Edit: and here is the paperwork (thanks to ivy):

http://www.scribd.com/doc/229471634/MJ-Fan-vs-Sony-MJ-Estate-Cascio-Porte
 
Well. Good luck. I don't expect to see anything from this but whoever she is, good luck.
God Speed Estate/Sony.
 
SoCav said:
So you're back to thinking the songs are authentic now?
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I think they just like to change there tune to always be against the tide, that way they seem like one of those "cool against the curve" kids. Its awesome really.
 
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