MJ and global music?

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I see a pattern of MJ adapting music from non western countries in his work. Especially in the 2000s, Working with RedOne, crafting songs with a more Latin influenced rhythm, adapting more eastern instruments and melodies in songs like RedEye, working and making albums in the middle east, making songs about other countries (Days in Gloucestershire), and even gifting a song to J-Friends (People of the World). And even more than that throughout obviously. He was multinational.

I Could see MJ get away with making global music, eschewing entirely western trends. I think he predicted how popular music from other cultures would be.

Likewise, people of all nationalities pay respect to MJ in their music.

This song has so much MJ flair.

 

[DuranDuran]

I think he predicted how popular music from other cultures would be.

About this subject I think more of Peter Gabriel & Sting, George Harrison's Indian songs in The Beatles, or 1970s bands like War, Earth Wind & Fire, & Santana than Mike. Or even the Exotica & bossa nova crazes & the popularity of Harry Belafonte in the 1950s & 1960s.

 

[filmandmusic]

It is not surprising or far fetched. Michael used to study charts from al over the world to find out what was popular .
Supposedly "dark lady" has a middle eastern rhythm or beat. There is the Brazilian percussion band (Odulum?) playing on TDCAU.

The prime example next to the Beatles and their Indian influences for me is Paul Simon with Graceland (African chanting) followed up with The Rhythmn of the saints (Brazilian percussion). Two fantastic albums btw.
There is also Natalie Merchant with her 2010 album "leave your sleep" which has Chinese instruments on some songs. It's a wonderful record as well.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

About this subject I think more of Peter Gabriel & Sting, George Harrison's Indian songs in The Beatles, or 1970s bands like War, Earth Wind & Fire, & Santana than Mike. Or even the Exotica & bossa nova crazes & the popularity of Harry Belafonte in the 1950s & 1960s.

Going more in depth, I think MJ knew latin music would be a dominant thing. You had J.Lo and Shakira, sure, but now we got Bad Bunny, Kali Uchis, and other big names from other countries. That style of music is very popular now.

K-Pop and Japanese Pop as well, they're dominant. I think he predicted that for the next decade. I was not saying he's the first person to play from other countries.

 

[DuranDuran]

Going more in depth, I think MJ knew latin music would be a dominant thing. You had J.Lo and Shakira, sure, but now we got Bad Bunny, Kali Uchis, and other big names from other countries. That style of music is very popular now.

K-Pop and Japanese Pop as well, they're dominant. I think he predicted that for the next decade. I was not saying he's the first person to play from other countries.

K-pop is basically Beyoncé & Rihanna era R&B with Korean singers, some has hip hop elements. BTS is not really much different from New Edition, Menudo, & *NSYNC. It's not the same as Korean traditional music. It's like Lisa Lisa is Puerto Rican, but she didn't release salsa or tropical music, she was R&B.

 

[Victorious]

About this subject I think more of Peter Gabriel & Sting, George Harrison's Indian songs in The Beatles, or 1970s bands like War, Earth Wind & Fire, & Santana than Mike. Or even the Exotica & bossa nova crazes & the popularity of Harry Belafonte in the 1950s & 1960s.

I love War, such an amazing band! I feel this song might have also influenced 'Another Part of Me' btw:

 

[zinniabooklover]

Jazz being built on blues which was built on musical ideas that emerged from the Sahara and the Middle East. Jazz seems to have been influenced by Islamic modalities.

Michael growing up in the 60's and 70's would have been hearing all the eastern influences that were so prominent in pop music. The Doors with eastern influences on 'The End' which was a huge hit in the late 60's. The Byrds, Curved Air, Ritchie Blackmore also in the 60's. Psychedelic rock in general was influenced heavily by eastern ideas and instruments. Led Zep in the 1970's, quite a few prog rock bands in the 70's. After all, the guitar originated in the Middle East, afaik.

I would love to know what music the brothers heard when they went to Senegal in the 70's. I know they weren't there very long but they must have heard something.

Anyway, I bet Michael would have heard Jah Wobble in the 90's. Timbaland in the 90's and 2000's sampling middle eastern sounds.

Paul Simon, on Graceland, was using South African street music. Africa is a huge continent with endless musical styles and sounds.

Plus, what does 'world' or 'global' music even mean? The 'West' used to be just Europe. North and South America used to be distinct regions that were not considered part of the 'West' and they had their own cultural and musical practices. In the North, Native American and First Nations people didn't use stringed instruments, afaik. It was mostly vocal and percussion. The increasing influence of European music and culture is what brought North America into what we now call the 'West'.

It is not surprising or far fetched. Michael used to study charts from al over the world to find out what was popular .
Supposedly "dark lady" has a middle eastern rhythm or beat. There is the Brazilian percussion band (Odulum?) playing on TDCAU.

Olodum. They played with Paul Simon and Sepultura before they played with Michael. They were on SNL with Paul Simon, dunno what year that was. Michael definitely gave them a bigger platform than the other two, no question.

 

[Agonum]

Jazz being built on blues which was built on musical ideas that emerged from the Sahara and the Middle East. Jazz seems to have been influenced by Islamic modalities.

Blues in the Middle East?

 

[Agonum]

Jazz being built on blues which was built on musical ideas that emerged from the Sahara and the Middle East. Jazz seems to have been influenced by Islamic modalities.

Michael growing up in the 60's and 70's would have been hearing all the eastern influences that were so prominent in pop music. The Doors with eastern influences on 'The End' which was a huge hit in the late 60's. The Byrds, Curved Air, Ritchie Blackmore also in the 60's. Psychedelic rock in general was influenced heavily by eastern ideas and instruments. Led Zep in the 1970's, quite a few prog rock bands in the 70's. After all, the guitar originated in the Middle East, afaik.

I would love to know what music the brothers heard when they went to Senegal in the 70's. I know they weren't there very long but they must have heard something.

Anyway, I bet Michael would have heard Jah Wobble in the 90's. Timbaland in the 90's and 2000's sampling middle eastern sounds.

Paul Simon, on Graceland, was using South African street music. Africa is a huge continent with endless musical styles and sounds.

Plus, what does 'world' or 'global' music even mean? The 'West' used to be just Europe. North and South America used to be distinct regions that were not considered part of the 'West' and they had their own cultural and musical practices. In the North, Native American and First Nations people didn't use stringed instruments, afaik. It was mostly vocal and percussion. The increasing influence of European music and culture is what brought North America into what we now call the 'West'.


Olodum. They played with Paul Simon and Sepultura before they played with Michael. They were on SNL with Paul Simon, dunno what year that was. Michael definitely gave them a bigger platform than the other two, no question.

The guitar is most likely of European origin.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Blues in the Middle East?

Not blues as we know it now and I'm definitely not trying to set myself up as an expert. Far from it. I've never bothered to research this properly bc I can't sustain enough interest in it. Whenever I dip into it, though, I do see people putting forward theories about the influence of Islamic sound on the development of the blues. How accepted / contested these theories are I couldn't say. It has been standard in the past to connect the blues with the musical traditions of West Africa. What seems to be happening in recent years is people are saying, 'hang on, West Africa was a region that had been heavily influenced by Islam for centuries.' I've seen people suggest that you can clearly hear the similarity between 'Levee Camp Holler' and the Islamic call to prayer. I haven't checked it out myself although it does sound intriguing.

You're the musicologist not me so I'm just throwing out ideas here. But I've seen enough stuff supporting this particular theory to think it might well be true. Some of the slaves brought to America from West Africa were Muslim, or so I believe, and thus had different musical and cultural practices to other groups of slaves.

Blues in the Middle East? Not exactly but the sounds and ideas from Islamic music might well have influenced the blues. If the music and culture of West African slaves influenced the birth and development of the blues in the US then surely those West African slaves who happened to be Muslim would also have had some influence on it.

The guitar is most likely of European origin.

Not really going to get into this and, again, not an area I have any expertise in. All I can say is, based on random bits of reading I've done, some people think otherwise. Maybe it depends on how you define 'guitar' and how much the oud feeds into the development of the guitar. I believe Muslims brought the oud to Spain, Europeans invented the frets which turned it into a lute which eventually turned into the guitar. Or maybe it didn't. Actually, ngl, I see conflicting and confusing stories about this lute/guitar thing so I might leave this to one side, lol. But stringed instruments were definitely part of Islamic culture. And the American banjo originated with African slaves, afaik.

None of this is about downgrading the development of music in Europe, it's more about acknowledging that influences move easily back and forth and are not trapped behind tight boundaries.

Bringing it back to Michael, one of my fave quotes from him:
"The rhythms of Africa, which is the roots of rhythm, that's my favourite music. I think that's the favourite music of the world. Because all music is derived from that."

 

[Agonum]

Not blues as we know it now and I'm definitely not trying to set myself up as an expert. Far from it. I've never bothered to research this properly bc I can't sustain enough interest in it. Whenever I dip into it, though, I do see people putting forward theories about the influence of Islamic sound on the development of the blues. How accepted / contested these theories are I couldn't say. It has been standard in the past to connect the blues with the musical traditions of West Africa. What seems to be happening in recent years is people are saying, 'hang on, West Africa was a region that had been heavily influenced by Islam for centuries.' I've seen people suggest that you can clearly hear the similarity between 'Levee Camp Holler' and the Islamic call to prayer. I haven't checked it out myself although it does sound intriguing.

You're the musicologist not me so I'm just throwing out ideas here. But I've seen enough stuff supporting this particular theory to think it might well be true. Some of the slaves brought to America from West Africa were Muslim, or so I believe, and thus had different musical and cultural practices to other groups of slaves.

Blues in the Middle East? Not exactly but the sounds and ideas from Islamic music might well have influenced the blues. If the music and culture of West African slaves influenced the birth and development of the blues in the US then surely those West African slaves who happened to be Muslim would also have had some influence on it.


Not really going to get into this and, again, not an area I have any expertise in. All I can say is, based on random bits of reading I've done, some people think otherwise. Maybe it depends on how you define 'guitar' and how much the oud feeds into the development of the guitar. I believe Muslims brought the oud to Spain, Europeans invented the frets which turned it into a lute which eventually turned into the guitar. Or maybe it didn't. Actually, ngl, I see conflicting and confusing stories about this lute/guitar thing so I might leave this to one side, lol. But stringed instruments were definitely part of Islamic culture. And the American banjo originated with African slaves, afaik.

None of this is about downgrading the development of music in Europe, it's more about acknowledging that influences move easily back and forth and are not trapped behind tight boundaries.

Bringing it back to Michael, one of my fave quotes from him:
"The rhythms of Africa, which is the roots of rhythm, that's my favourite music. I think that's the favourite music of the world. Because all music is derived from that."

I’m struggling to see how blues could have gotten anything major from the Middle East, to be honest. I’m sure you are familiar with the fact that they don’t use our twelve tones, but microtonality.

Thinking of the guitar as an evolution of traditional antique Middle Eastern instruments is a mistake, in my view. It’s rather a matter of convergent evolution, where for instance the Greek kithara is a more likely ancestor.

 

[filmandmusic]

This is no place for an illiterate peasant like me

 

[zinniabooklover]

I’m struggling to see how blues could have gotten anything major from the Middle East, to be honest. I’m sure you are familiar

Nope.

with the fact that

Nope.

they don’t use our twelve tones, but microtonality.

Mate, I'm not a musicologist. No point in getting all technical on me, it means nothing to me. I read stuff aimed at the layperson and there are persuasive articles arguing that Islamic influences can be detected in American blues. I did say that I don't know how much argument there is over these theories and I'm sure the debate is a lively back-and-forth. But, to reiterate, since most people accept that the musical traditions of West Africa have contributed to the birth and development of the blues it doesn't seem too far fetched, imo, to assume that those other slaves, also from West Africa but who happened to be Muslim, might also have influenced the blues.

And I could be wrong. And I don't even care that much. I think it's a really interesting theory. Whether it is plausible, I'm not qualified to say. One thing I do know is, boundaries between music and culture are much more porous than people seem to appreciate. That is really the basic point I was trying to make.

Thinking of the guitar as an evolution of traditional antique Middle Eastern instruments is a mistake, in my view. It’s rather a matter of convergent evolution, where for instance the Greek kithara is a more likely ancestor.

I've seen arguments going both ways on this one and, again, I don't really care. I'm not qualified to judge whether one side of this argument or the other is the most likely. To me, as a layperson, they seem evenly weighted. However, I do find it mildly interesting to speculate on the development of the guitar bc it often seems to be written about as if it just sprang into being in Spain, almost out of nowhere. Which makes no sense to me. I've seen the articles about the Greek kithara. But I've seen just as many referencing the oud. I don't really care which one is the ancestor since my interest in the guitar more or less begins and ends with Jimi Hendrix. I was trying to make the point that, although the guitar, as we know it, might well be an entirely European instrument, it's history might be more complex than we think. And when I say 'we' I really mean a layperson with no more than a vague interest in all of this, not a musicologist. That's a whole separate thing.

This is no place for an illiterate peasant like me

Let me join you over there, mate, just as soon as I've listened to some Hannah Montana. I'm exhausted, lol. I wish I'd never jumped into this. That'll learn me, lol.

"I guess I never got the memo"
(Jessie J lyrics)