Muhammad in the Bible

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Everything I wrote is taken from different sources, I always check before I write, not to make mistakes. I don't make things up. So no, to answer your question, I didn't forget to count. I explained that in my previous post, at the start, Jews referred to those who were from Kingdom of Judah, later also those who practice the religion of the Israelites. Read the bible again then, it is mentioned various times. What's the point anyway? are you saying now that Judaism is not the oldest monotheistic religion? because I don't get why you are repeating yourself with this. It is a fact and both Christianity and Islam were influenced by Judaism.

Well you said yourself that you don't understand Hebrew and Arabic so how can you make this assumption? I already explained in details about all Semitic languages. You should do a research yourself. Its pointless anyway to this thread.

Umm, I also quote from different sources from what I have learned in world linguistics and dialectology. I didn't make up anything.

The point about what I said on the term Judaism (or Christianity or Islam), is that people associate that word in their minds with a group of people and seek to own respectively Moses's, Jesus's or Muhammad's teachings by categorizing and dividing people, whereas the above mentioned prophets and enlighted people such as Ghandi for example did not seek to divide people, but to unite.

Because of those terms every category of people feeling to belong to one or another group seek to own God as if they were the chosen ones and forget that the very same God doesn't care about "nationality", but about deeds.

I've never read in the Bible that Moses called to Judaism or Jesus to Christianism or Muhammad to Mohamedism. However, when I read their respective teachings, I see more similarities in the faith they were preaching --as it is the same message from the same source-- than differences.

My point is, one cannot carry a universal message if that message is addressed only to one part of the people on Earth and not to others. What about people from Far East? Or from Far West? They also should get a message, shouldn't they?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

p.s. Not that I use Wikipedia as a reference when it comes to religious discussion, but here is what I quickly have found there:

Origin of the term "Judaism"

The term Judaism derives from the Latin Iudaismus, derived from the Greek &#921;&#959;&#965;&#948;&#945;&#970;&#963;&#956;&#972;&#962; Ioudaïsmos, and ultimately from the Hebrew &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1491;&#1492;, Yehudah, "Judah";<SUP id=cite_ref-57 class=reference>[58]</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-58 class=reference>[59]</SUP> in Hebrew: &#1497;&#1463;&#1492;&#1458;&#1491;&#1493;&#1468;&#1514;, Yahadut. It first appears as the Hellenistic Greek iudaismos in 2nd Maccabees in the 2nd century BCE. In the context of the age and period it held the meaning of seeking or forming part of a cultural entity, that of iudea, the Greek derivative of Persian Yehud, and can be compared with hellenismos, meaning acceptance of Hellenic cultural norms (the conflict between iudaismos and hellenismos lay behind the Maccabeean revolt and hence the invention of the term iudaismos).<SUP id=cite_ref-59 class=reference>[60]</SUP> The earliest instance of the term in English, used to mean "the profession or practice of the Jewish religion; the religious system or polity of the Jews," is Robert Fabyan's The newe cronycles of Englande and of Fraunce a 1513. As an English translation of the Latin, the first instance in English is a 1611 translation of the Apocrypha(Deuterocanon in Catholic and Orthodox Christianity), 2 Macc. ii. 21 "Those that behaved themselues manfully to their honour for Iudaisme."<SUP id=cite_ref-60 class=reference>http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/#cite_note-60</SUP>

 

[LoveMJackson]

Umm, I also quote from different sources from what I have learned in world linguistics and dialectology. I didn't make up anything.

The point about what I said on the term Judaism (or Christianity or Islam), is that people associate that word in their minds with a group of people and seek to own respectively Moses's, Jesus's or Muhammad's teachings by categorizing and dividing people, whereas the above mentioned prophets and enlighted people such as Ghandi for example did not seek to divide people, but to unite.

Because of those terms every category of people feeling to belong to one or another group seek to own God as if they were the chosen ones and forget that the very same God doesn't care about "nationality", but about deeds.

I've never read in the Bible that Moses called to Judaism or Jesus to Christianism or Muhammad to Mohamedism. However, when I read their respective teachings, I see more similarities in the faith they were preaching --as it is the same message from the same source-- than differences.

My point is, one cannot carry a universal message if that message is addressed only to one part of the people on Earth and not to others. What about people from Far East? Or from Far West? They also should get a message, shouldn't they?

Ok..
You don’t have to go that far..just look in your own religion, whatever if its Islam, Christianity, Judaism..people within the religion are divided. Like Sunnis vs Shiite vs Wahhabi/ Catholic vs protestant and I can go and on and on. You can look at history, Christians killed Muslims and Jews, Muslims killed Jews are Christians in order spread their religion. These 3 monotheistic religions can never be united..we have to be honest here. I, of course agree with you but the reality shows otherwise. People always think their religion is superior and better and they are the chosen people and their GOD only cares about them. Its ridiculous. I find all religions ridiculous, but what is even more ridiculous is their fanatic followers.
I said it is mentioned in the bible, I didn’t say by whom..not Moses. It was later. Again, you have to go to the source..always.

About Wiki, its not always a reliable source, I always check more sources to see if its correct because wiki is full of mistakes. btw, Judaism is not only a religion, you have to keep that in mind.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Ok..
You don’t have to go that far..just look in your own religion, whatever if its Islam, Christianity, Judaism..people within the religion are divided. Like Sunnis vs Shiite vs Wahhabi/ Catholic vs protestant and I can go and on and on. You can look at history, Christians killed Muslims and Jews, Muslims killed Jews are Christians in order spread their religion. These 3 monotheistic religions can never be united..we have to be honest here. I, of course agree with you but the reality shows otherwise. People always think their religion is superior and better and they are the chosen people and their GOD only cares about them. Its ridiculous. I find all religions ridiculous, but what is even more ridiculous is their fanatic followers.
I said it is mentioned in the bible, I didn’t say by whom..not Moses. It was later. Again, you have to go to the source..always.

About Wiki, its not always a reliable source, I always check more sources to see if its correct because wiki is full of mistakes. btw, Judaism is not only a religion, you have to keep that in mind.

I agree with your optimism, but not with your pessimism :cheeky:

I believe that people of different religions can live together. I wear around my neck David's star, a cross and a crescant.

I am not seeking to force people in believing that we should ignore differences, but I am trying to show an example that we shouldn't be afraid of the differences and try to understand them.

As far as religions are concerned, you are right up to a point. Nevertheless let's not forget that it is the governments, the ruling political elite who are trying to program citizens by offering them "official" religious education thanks to which we are... being divided and brainwashed, and ultimately when there is a conflict of interests between governments their citizens are ready to point a gun at their human fellow.

Likewise, when governments agree on political level, their respective countries are "friends" (of interest of course) and are ready to send citizens from their respective countries to "defend" them from the "enemy" of a government which doesn't share the same political view and the manner where and how to spend their money.

 

[Garden]

What I wanted to emphasize is that when you say "an apple" to someone, that someone will understand you, but won't have the same color of the apple in his head as you in your head. That is the difficulty that I was pointing out actually.



In brief, it is actually much more complex than that. Those terms are more different than same. "Ruh" is seen more as Divine's "breath" pouring life into lifeless body, while Christians see the Holy Spirit as one of the three entities from the Trinity concept.

The light that ou are referring to is also different term: Nur.


I can assure you that languages are sometimes amazing when it comes to philosophy and theology.

Food for thought: Aloha & Hawaii. Or, Brahma and Saraiswati

This is OK for me . Bumper with my first paragraph I didn't want to discuss you, I just was telling something, maybe I went out of topic a bit.
Agree for the apples in different colors .


For one word I want to add a bit of explanation. You said "Rûh" has the meaning of breath. Yes you are right.
I think I am too much used to the methaphorical use of words in Sufism... Of course we can't deny the litteral meaning of words.

Sufism has it's own glossary... there, Rûh is a certain modality of Spirit.
Nûr in Sufism glossary is the spiritual flux flowing from a spiritual source.

And there is the use of metaphore.
Many Sufi poems and chants are written as a love song to a beloved (f.i. Layla) but it is a metaphore for the feelings toward The Beloved, Allâh.

Of course it is complicated Bumper, even more in the spiritual use of words (and you know that there are spiritual "schools" in almost every religion).
There you get other similarities than in the everyday use of words....

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

In short, the common point between Moses, Jesus and Muhammad is that they were not interested in any financial gain. They were all three revolutionists in their respective times.

On the other hand, those intellectuals who fabricated division between people were promoted by the political elits to whom the ideas suited the agenda. Look for example what Hitler did. He promoted historians who believed that Jesus was blond and blue-eyed. Ultimately what caused Jewish genocide by the Nazis was not religious ideas, but political promotion of extremism.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

This is OK for me . Bumper with my first paragraph I didn't want to discuss you, I just was telling something, maybe I went out of topic a bit.
Agree for the apples in different colors .


For one word I want to add a bit of explanation. You said "Rûh" has the meaning of breath. Yes you are right.
I think I am too much used to the methaphorical use of words in Sufism... Of course we can't deny the litteral meaning of words.

Sufism has it's own glossary... there, Rûh is a certain modality of Spirit.
Nûr in Sufism glossary is the spiritual flux flowing from a spiritual source.

And there is the use of metaphore.
Many Sufi poems and chants are written as a love song to a beloved (f.i. Layla) but it is a metaphore for the feelings toward The Beloved, Allâh.

Of course it is complicated Bumper, even more in the spiritual use of words (and you know that there are spiritual "schools" in almost every religion).
There you get other similarities than in the everyday use of words....

I'm actually quite familiar with sufism. So I understand what you mean. But I was just pointing out that some people see the same terms completely differently. Yes, you can use the term "Ruh" in Arabic as "Spirit", but then again, don't forget that there are Arab Christians and Arab Muslims. Even if they share the common mother tongue they would disagree on the nature of the Ruh.

 

[MJLoverForEver]

thanks. so heaven is mentioned in the old testament ie torah?.thought the whole concept of resurrection came about through the new testament ie jesus and being a christian.was it around b4 then so to speak. i guess its another example of different religions all claiming they are right when going by whats said they cant be cause they all contridict each other

True, resurrection was brought by Jesus and that is to do with becoming a new person, and body of SIN being dead by accepting Jesus as savior; and this means, believing in Jesus ways of live which reconnect human kind back to God since that relationship was broken when Adam and Eve sinned and for that, death came upon us as panishment. The old testmony of bible really talks mostly history, eg the creation of earth, how and by whom God was communicating with people, other events like punishments he would allow to happens eg Noah and the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah. In other case we see God trying to give guildlines on how to live moral life, we see Moses given the ten commandments. But these didn't work. Sin continue to dominate that is why God sent Jesus to show us by example, to live among us and teach the only way to God. It is not by respecting a written law, but, by Loving every human being, this way you will do no body any harm and this can only be found in our hearts, not mind. The heart is where the spirit dwell. Now, it will depend on whether you allowed a holly spirit to settle into your heart or unholly which will guide do bad

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

True, resurrection was brought by Jesus and that is to do with becoming a new person, and body of SIN being dead by accepting Jesus as savior; and this means, believing in Jesus ways of live which reconnect human kind back to God since that relationship was broken when Adam and Eve sinned and for that, death came upon us as panishment. The old testmony of bible really talks mostly history, eg the creation of earth, how and by whom God was communicating with people, other events like punishments he would allow to happens eg Noah and the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah. In other case we see God trying to give guildlines on how to live moral life, we see Moses given the ten commandments. But these didn't work. Sin continue to dominate that is why God sent Jesus to show us by example, to live among us and teach the only way to God. It is not by respecting a written law, but, by Loving every human being, this way you will do no body any harm and this can only be found in our hearts, not mind. The heart is where the spirit dwell. Now, it will depend on whether you allowed a holly spirit to settle into your heart or unholly which will guide do bad

So if I follow that logic, it would mean that the All-Knowing God sent something that he knew wouldn't work?

Likewise, if Jesus's resurrection "worked", wouldn't we live happily now?

And another food for thought, thanks to whom Romans recognized Jesus before arresting him? In other words, why is Juda considered as a traitor, when actually he was the cause why Jesus is believed to be crucified? Which means that if Juda didn't deliver Jesus to Romans, Jesus would have escaped Romans and wouldn't have been crucified. Shouldn't the Christian teachings praise Juda for having the courage to deliver his master in order to fulfill the mission rather than being regarded as a traitor?

 

[Garden]

From :


Jam


Written and composed by M. Jackson

Nation to nation
All the world must come together
Face the problems that we see
Then maybe somehow we can work it out
I asked my neighbour for a favour
She said later
What has come of all the people
Have we lost love of what it's about
I have to find my peace 'coz no one seems to let me be
False prophets cry of doom what are the possibilities
I told my brother there'll be problems
Times and tears for fears
We must live each day like it's the last
Go with it
Go with it
Jam
It ain't too much stuff
It ain't too much
It ain't too much for me to
Jam
It ain't
It ain't too much stuff
It ain't
Don't you
It ain't too much for me to

The world keeps changing
Rearranging minds and thoughts predictions
Fly of doom the baby boom
Has come of age we'll work it out
I told my brothers don't you ask me for no favors
I'm conditioned by the system
Don't you talk to me don't scream and shout
She pray to god, to buddha
Then she sings a talmud song
Confusions contradict the self do we know right from wrong
I just want you to recognize me in the temple
You can't hurt me
I found peace within myself

 

[Garden]

I'm actually quite familiar with sufism. So I understand what you mean. But I was just pointing out that some people see the same terms completely differently. Yes, you can use the term "Ruh" in Arabic as "Spirit", but then again, don't forget that there are Arab Christians and Arab Muslims. Even if they share the common mother tongue they would disagree on the nature of the Ruh.

Well of course there are disagreements, it's part of reality, it is part of expressing of world-vision and concepts of man and God (and so on)...
Language is a mirror, mirrors will show different images, for each group and for each person.

In Islam we say "There are so many paths as there are sons of Adam", that includes the fact that everyone has his own unique way of experiencing reality (or Reality).

But about coming to-gether now ...
I think when you take a Christian Mystic, an Islamic Sufi, a Hasid Jew, a Bhakti Hindu, a Buddhist.... I think there would be more agreement than you would think for possible .
However, they're human too, there will be some disputes after all ...

But I think spirituality really can make a difference...


Some food for thinking : Dancing The Dream

 

[LoveMJackson]

I agree with your optimism, but not with your pessimism :cheeky:

I believe that people of different religions can live together. I wear around my neck David's star, a cross and a crescant.

I am not seeking to force people in believing that we should ignore differences, but I am trying to show an example that we shouldn't be afraid of the differences and try to understand them.

As far as religions are concerned, you are right up to a point. Nevertheless let's not forget that it is the governments, the ruling political elite who are trying to program citizens by offering them "official" religious education thanks to which we are... being divided and brainwashed, and ultimately when there is a conflict of interests between governments their citizens are ready to point a gun at their human fellow.

Likewise, when governments agree on political level, their respective countries are "friends" (of interest of course) and are ready to send citizens from their respective countries to "defend" them from the "enemy" of a government which doesn't share the same political view and the manner where and how to spend their money.

hehe sorry, I didn’t mean to sound that pessimistic and I didn’t mean to generalize. Of course there are people of different religions that can live together peacefully, I was speaking more generally. Anyway, I'd rather not start a real debate about religion here because it will never end lol I have a lot what to say regarding the matter but its not the place for it. so I better keep my thoughts to myself at this point Peace

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

hehe sorry, I didn’t mean to sound that pessimistic and I didn’t mean to generalize. Of course there are people of different religions that can live together peacefully, I was speaking more generally. Anyway, I'd rather not start a real debate about religion here because it will never end lol I have a lot what to say regarding the matter but its not the place for it. so I better keep my thoughts to myself at this point Peace

Shalom

 

[Garden]

MJloveforever, you write : "It is not by respecting a written law, but, by Loving every human being, this way you will do no body any harm and this can only be found in our hearts, not mind. The heart is where the spirit dwell. Now, it will depend on whether you allowed a holly spirit to settle into your heart or unholly which will guide do bad "

Of course it is Love that matters...
What about living the laws in a "spiritually" way? I mean from within and progressively?
Loving, that means already you respect Spiritual law .
Written laws are necessary, but they are not a goal, just a aid for reaching our spiritual goals.

 

[Garden]

I am sorry but indeed, there has been monotheistic religions before our wellknown three "Abraham-itic" religions. Unfortunately I am not sure of any name of it. Should review my study books or google maybe ...

And don't forget, sorry no offence , there is difference in the time of the name-giving to a religion and the time that it's roots appeared.
For Judaism, Christianity and Islam the roots are with revelations from God to Prophets. Abraham, he is the Prophet that experienced a God's revelation and then brought an end to polytheism (in that part of the world).
So for muslims he is the first Prophet that summited himself peacefully (s-l-m?) to one God. Now, this was accepted by a group of believers, and Jews and Christians might not agree that Islam has its roots so early...

More : religions are indeed rooted in history of human kind in relationship to a God.
And there is Revelation in Thora, Bible and Quran, for each people there is God's Word.
The history of relation men-to-God began with Adam. Maybe our monotheistic religions start already with Adam?

 

[smoothcriminal12]

From :


Jam


Written and composed by M. Jackson

Nation to nation
All the world must come together
Face the problems that we see
Then maybe somehow we can work it out
I asked my neighbour for a favour
She said later
What has come of all the people
Have we lost love of what it's about
I have to find my peace 'coz no one seems to let me be
False prophets cry of doom what are the possibilities
I told my brother there'll be problems
Times and tears for fears
We must live each day like it's the last
Go with it
Go with it
Jam
It ain't too much stuff
It ain't too much
It ain't too much for me to
Jam
It ain't
It ain't too much stuff
It ain't
Don't you
It ain't too much for me to

The world keeps changing
Rearranging minds and thoughts predictions
Fly of doom the baby boom
Has come of age we'll work it out
I told my brothers don't you ask me for no favors
I'm conditioned by the system
Don't you talk to me don't scream and shout
She pray to god, to buddha
Then she sings a talmud song
Confusions contradict the self do we know right from wrong
I just want you to recognize me in the temple
You can't hurt me
I found peace within myself

This has nothing to do with this thread....great song though! unk:unk:

 

[Garden]

This has nothing to do with this thread....great song though! unk:unk:

Yes great song, maybe my favorite of all
Smoothcriminal, you say this has nothing to do with the thread. I agree that not every line in this lyrics have to do with the thread... by thread I mean the posts and answers, not so much the title of this thread, my mistake?
When you read the posts maybe you'll see why I posted this song.

Anyway, jam and enjoy

 

[Bigboo]

i believe that the 3 religions (Islam,Christianity & Judaism) are pretty much connected & sequential

the only different thing in Islam that we believe Jesus (Issa) was a prophet not the son of god

otherwise we have lots of similarities ^^

personally i don't think wars has anything to do with religion .. it's just a political excuse or a propaganda to create hate and intolerance .. cause all religions urges love & peace & good deeds

 

[elusive moonwalker]

From the very beginning. Where were Adam and Eve chased away from?




According to your understanding, would it mean that all the people who had thousands of years across the world died before Jesus's mission were not resurrected?

Only Christians believe that salvation comes through Jesus. In other religions salvation comes through God, the "Father" if you prefer, not the "Son".

p.s. Jesus did not call his teachings Christian. Jesus was a Jew and was reminding the Law (the Torah) and the monotheism among the Romans who were polytheists. The term "Christian" appeared later.

According to your understanding,

its not my undersanding it was a question.and if u were a christian then yeah logically you shouldnt believe anyone was resurected until jesus came along i dont believe in any of it.heaven resurection etc its not logical or heaven must be one over crowded place with all the billions of ppl that have died. just seeing all the contridictions based on interpretations confirms that even though everyone claims they are right and following the right path they obviously arent as everyone cant be right.thefacts should be thefacts it shouldnt need to be intrepretated. but its like for example nostredamus (sp) you can intrepretate anything the way you want it if you see fit.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

its not my undersanding it was a question.and if u were a christian then yeah logically you shouldnt believe anyone was resurected until jesus came along i dont believe in any of it.

Well I don't see where's the logic there. Each individual is responsible for their actions as each individual has the intellectual capacity to make choices in their lives. Why would it be logical that someone else dies for individuals' sins, be tortured on the cross in order to save the humanity instead of simply forgive sins without any torture and putting individuals's sins on someone's else's shoulders. If God is Almighty, he wouldn't need to sacrifice anyone.

heaven resurection etc its not logical or heaven must be one over crowded place with all the billions of ppl that have died.

If space and time don't matter than heaven wouldn't be considered as overcrowded. The logic would be seen from a completely different point of view with other references than what we have in our physical and material world.

just seeing all the contridictions based on interpretations confirms that even though everyone claims they are right and following the right path they obviously arent as everyone cant be right.thefacts should be thefacts it shouldnt need to be intrepretated. but its like for example nostredamus (sp) you can intrepretate anything the way you want it if you see fit.

Well the problem is partially the interpretation, but also due to the fact that many scriptures are not originals, but had been copied or written years if not decades and centuries after some events had taken place. However, the contradictions shouldn't be regarded as proof for stories not being accurate, but rather try to understand why there are contradictions and what would be the best possible explanation and their true origin. Unfortunately some people are sticking to the texts as God's words and don't dare question them. They often forget that all the transcriptions of those supposedly God's (perfect) words have been done by (imperfect) human beings.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Well I don't see where's the logic there. Each individual is responsible for their actions as each individual has the intellectual capacity to make choices in their lives. Why would it be logical that someone else dies for individuals' sins, be tortured on the cross in order to save the humanity instead of simply forgive sins without any torture and putting individuals's sins on someone's else's shoulders. If God is Almighty, he wouldn't need to sacrifice anyone.

it isnt logical.

If space and time don't matter than heaven wouldn't be considered as overcrowded. The logic would be seen from a completely different point of view with other references than what we have in our physical and material world.

still must be overcrowded.. it must be like living in the uk lol.billions of ppl have died if they are all there together it must be slightly packed.

yeah interpretation is defo the problem. is it was so cut and try it wouldnt need to be interpretated. the problem is whats written for the most part is just words that could mean wahtever you want them to mean.