New book: Artworks of Michael Jackson

[passy001]

So you are not denying that you are promoting the unauthorized book.

secondly, I don't expect people who bought the book to understand the nature of the issues involved. This is precisely what the sellers of the book are counting on. They present the book in a deceitful manner as if it had MJ blessing.


why would MJ draw something he does not own? and shame on you to support the unscrupulous exploitation of MJ work. MJ was not a slave!!!

 

[Tygger]

Passy001, there are SEVERAL unauthorized books that have been promoted on this forum by several posters.

I enjoy the book along with the others here who have purchased the book and gave grand reviews. Simple as that.

 

[passy001]

Passy001, there are SEVERAL unauthorized books that have been promoted on this forum by several posters.

I enjoy the book along with the others here who have purchased the book and gave grand reviews. Simple as that.

* DELETED INSULT *

Michael Jackson was NOT A slave !!!

His estate or children should benefit from his work.

Reviews have nothing to do with the unscrupulous exploitation of MJ work.

 

[ivy]

This is a little more than an unauthorized book.

There has been several books/ projects etc. that did not have Estate's blessing or authorization or whatever you call it. That's not the issue. However those unauthorized projects did not come at the expense of MJ's heirs.

 

[Tygger]

Passy001, rules have been broken in this thread at my expense so, I know it will not be an issue that you suggest I "be shot" only because I do not agree with you. Suffice to say, that comment is extreme.

Ivy, no futile argument will encourage guilt within me for purchasing this book. There are others who have purchased the book. You may be able to encourage guilt for them.

By the way, many of those unauthorized books included fabrications which may have upset Michael's beneficiaries that you promoted. I do understand from your post, your focus seems to be mostly on the financials of the beneficiaries and not their feelings. Your stance is hypocritical.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

This book came to be as a collection of stolen artworks by an individual who was clearly abusing the power of the position he had and as soon as Michael realized Tohme was stealing to him and his questionable behavior, he wanted Tohme out of his life. Jermaine achieved what Randall tried to do in 2005 by introducing that crook into his life. He didn't gift his artwork to those thieves. The way the reproduction rights were "obtained" reading the backstory ivy provided, was more likely illegal.

 

[ivy]

Tygger - Guilt? It is obvious that you don't have any guilt if you can argue MJ might not own the art he created. Plus long long ago I said nothing I write here can stop anyone from purchasing the book. I'm just expressing my opinion whether you agree with it or not. Just interesting though. On other threads you were very vocal about Estate holding on to assets. Here you have no problem with a very valuable asset being questionably "gifted".

Can you show a factual upset rather than a hypothetical may have? Of course my focus would be actual and known stuff and not your minds hypothetical may haves.

 

[wednesday]

You should be shot for even suggesting something like that.

MODERATORS, this is downright BULLYING!

No one should get away with a post like that! :no:

Please, do something about this. Thank you!


@passy001: I have reported you for this viscious attack on a fellow mjjcommunity member. You disagree with Tygger or anyone else, fine. You suggest someone should be shot, not so fine. Will be dealt with, hopefully.

 

[Tygger]

NO!

There is absolutely nothing acceptable about another member suggesting physical violence toward another because of a disagreement.

Such outrageous behavior should not be encouraged, supported, or ignored.

Absolutely shameful!

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

I want to think passy didn't state that LITERALLY but none of this would be happening if you Tygger didn't state YOUR OPINIONS as facts and chastise people in general because some of us decided to not buy a book originated in questionable and exploitative circumstances. You're happy with your purchase and the product, that's fine with me, let the rest be.

 

[Daryll748]

Gentle MOD Warning:

Chill guys please! :chillin:
The report hasn't been Ignored.
It's been sorted now through PM.

Back on topic please thanks!

 

[myosotis]

All of the art in this book (according to Brett's dates) predate 2002, except for one watercolour, which has a bracketed date range ending in 2002 (which was the year that Prince was born). According to Brett, Michael did not create this art as an inheritance for his children (or mother, or other family).

According to Brett in his interviews at the time the art collection was revealed, this was the purpose of the Alliance and the art:

'The idea behind their Jackson-Strong Alliance was that Strong would help Jackson manage and exhibit his art.'

'As for the spectacular appraisal of $900 million for Jackson’s art collection, Strong says that it derives from the idea of reproducing prints as well. The figure was originally quoted by Eric Finzi, of Belgo Fine Art Appraisers. “The reason somebody came out with that was because there was an appraisal on if all of his originals were reproduced — he wanted to do limited editions of 777 — and he would sell them to his fan base in order to build his monument, support kids and do other things. You multiply that by 150 originals, and if they sold for a few thousand dollars each, then you would end up with 900 million dollars.” Fair enough, though now Strong says he has gone to an appraiser in Chicago to get that value double-checked, and they arrived at an even higher estimate.'

https://mjjrealrealm.wordpress.com/tag/brett-livingstone-strong/


There seem to be assumptions among fans that Brett will not carry out Michael's wishes. Michael's family does not seem to share these assumptions, for whatever reasons. We can speculate endlesslessly, but I hope that some truths will emerge during the Tohme trial.

For me, the much bigger question is 'Why did Michael not use the value of this art to save himself?' If he had not needed to go to Colony Capital, he may not have agreed to the AEG concerts, and he may still be with us.

My personal wish is that he had used the value of his art to underwrite his own financial needs. I would rather that his children had been able to grow old experiencing his continuing love, than that they inherit multi millions of dollars.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

At the end of the day anything that gets one over on the estate and slips katherine a few bucks is ok by some. Why be upset, bothered when opinions motives agendas were made clear long ago. Its not about mike. Never has been

 

[krikzil]

Passy001, rules have been broken in this thread at my expense so, I know it will not be an issue that you suggest I "be shot" only because I do not agree with you. Suffice to say, that comment is extreme.

Ivy, no futile argument will encourage guilt within me for purchasing this book. There are others who have purchased the book. You may be able to encourage guilt for them.

By the way, many of those unauthorized books included fabrications which may have upset Michael's beneficiaries that you promoted. I do understand from your post, your focus seems to be mostly on the financials of the beneficiaries and not their feelings. Your stance is hypocritical.

Yours is the hypocritical stance. Books written about MJ can't be stopped so people can and will tell their versions about the man and/or their story with him, yes many utter "fabrications." However, the sale of Dieter's book -- before the lawsuit against Tohme is resolved -- with its reproductions of MJ's artwork raises ethical questions due to the very real issue of the rightful ownership of the artwork and all rights attached thereto. A world of difference.

So, yes your cheerleading for this book is rather interesting given your never-ending criticism of how the Estate has handled some of the assets. My guess? If they hadn't pursued legal action against Tohme, you would be in these threads complaining about the loss of this artwork. . Funny too, you're not concerned with the possible "fabrications" in this instance -- Tohme's gifting letter or Dieter's own questionable history concerning MJ. But heh, you got your art and Dieter gets one over on the Estate so it's all good, right? We see you.

 

[ivy]

There seem to be assumptions among fans that Brett will not carry out Michael's wishes. Michael's family does not seem to share these assumptions, for whatever reasons.

I don't think we want to go there - I mean his family. But we know how Jacksons - especially Katherine- are used (and compensated) in attempts to try to legitimize stuff when MJ Estate doesn't. BLS isn't the first or the last to try that.

If the goal of the alliance was to exhibit MJ's art, it's clear that wasn't the initial plan for BLS. BLS tried to sell the art. Selling the art to private collectors doesn't mean the art would be exhibited. Even it did, still the buyer benefits from the proceeds. Global exhibitions and reproductions need to work with the Estate, make this an official release. But that means sharing 50% of the profits.

For me, the much bigger question is 'Why did Michael not use the value of this art to save himself?

I'm pretty sure the valuation BLS showed wasn't realistic. If my memory isn't failing me some of the art was valued at $3 Million , $600,000 etc. That's too high. Even we accept the valuation correct and selling the art would bring $88 Million, that wouldn't be enough.

 

[myosotis]

I don't think we want to go there - I mean his family. But we know how Jacksons - especially Katherine- are used (and compensated) in attempts to try to legitimize stuff when MJ Estate doesn't. BLS isn't the first or the last to try that.

If the goal of the alliance was to exhibit MJ's art, it's clear that wasn't the initial plan for BLS. BLS tried to sell the art. Selling the art to private collectors doesn't mean the art would be exhibited. Even it did, still the buyer benefits from the proceeds. Global exhibitions and reproductions need to work with the Estate, make this an official release. But that means sharing 50% of the profits.


I'm pretty sure the valuation BLS showed wasn't realistic. If my memory isn't failing me some of the art was valued at $3 Million , $600,000 etc. That's too high. Even we accept the valuation correct and selling the art would bring $88 Million, that wouldn't be enough.

I would like to think the best of everyone involved....but you are right that a lifetime of disappointment doesn't bode well for future actions. My worry is that Brett will push the 'MJ monument' (or a gallery or museum) as being the main reason for wanting to raise money from the drawings, as these would likely involve him as sculptor / architect, and as we have seen his work is not inexpensive. He may have been trying to sell the art to raise money for the monument, or to build a gallery to display prints of the art ( it can be difficult to tell the difference between originals and prints, so why not display prints...it would also be 'safer'...ie it would be expensive to secure a building containing $millions worth of art).

As to Katherine...well, I wonder how much of Brett's plans (and the new alliance) has been discussed with Michael's children. we don't know and probably never will. I just feel uncomfortable assuming all is for the worst, when we don't really know. I hope that the trial will help to sort out the truth. I await the papers with interest.

As to the value of the art in Michael's lifetime, I have a feeling that the value of prints could be enormous. They don't have to sell each print for thousands, as Brett seems t be saying. There are enough fans who would buy prints for hundreds of dollars, or less, and the sheer volume of sales would be huge. The copyrights could be sold for use in calendars and all kinds of other illustrative purposes. I still wish that this had been explored by Tohme. I'm sure he would have known of the true value of these drawings and the copyright, and a better deal than the CC deal could have been made. (But then of course Tohme would not have profited.)

 

[ivy]

My worry is that Brett will push the 'MJ monument' (or a gallery or museum) as being the main reason for wanting to raise money from the drawings, as these would likely involve him as sculptor / architect, and as we have seen his work is not inexpensive.

he already did. When the stories about the artwork and his attempts to sell it has became public in 2011, he emailed me saying that he was selling the art to raise funds for a MJ monument. But you understand what it means right? BLS wants money to make a BLS monument so he sells MJ's art. The plan was to sell the art to a single collector and they hoped that collector would exhibit and/or publish the art. However no legitimate buyer would purchase the art without a release or confirmation from the Estate that they can indeed release/publish/print the art. As it didn't happen that sale did not happen. It's also no surprise that this book wasn't released from a major publisher and comes from Dieter.

As to the value of the art in Michael's lifetime, I have a feeling that the value of prints could be enormous. They don't have to sell each print for thousands, as Brett seems t be saying. There are enough fans who would buy prints for hundreds of dollars, or less, and the sheer volume of sales would be huge. The copyrights could be sold for use in calendars and all kinds of other illustrative purposes. I still wish that this had been explored by Tohme. I'm sure he would have known of the true value of these drawings and the copyright, and a better deal than the CC deal could have been made. (But then of course Tohme would not have profited.)

I agree that prints and/or books could be a decent income source. Hard to say how much interest would there be at 2008-2009. Right now it requires Estate's support and partnership to achieve world wide release. And that's something I don't get. Why not these people (such as BLS, Last photo shoots etc) work with Estate, form a partnership and have these stuff released worldwide with estate's support and blessing. That way everyone (Estate, other parties and fans) could benefit. The attempts to remove Estate from the mix only hurts everyone. They get tied in lawsuits for years, items don't get released or get released very limited way and it creates the divided fan reaction. I don't get this.

 

[myosotis]

he already did. When the stories about the artwork and his attempts to sell it has became public in 2011, he emailed me saying that he was selling the art to raise funds for a MJ monument. But you understand what it means right? BLS wants money to make a BLS monument. The plan was to sell the art to a single collector and they hoped that collector would exhibit and/or publish the art. However no legitimate buyer would purchase the art without a release or confirmation from the Estate. As it didn't happen that sale did not happen. It's also no surprise that this book wasn't released from a major publisher and comes from Dieter.

I agree that prints and/or books could be a decent income source. Hard to say how much interest would there be at 2008-2009. Right now it requires Estate's support and partnership to achieve world wide release. And that's something I don't get. Why not these people (such as BLS, Last photo shoots etc) work with Estate, form a partnership and have these stuff released worldwide with estate's support and blessing. That way everyone (Estate, other parties and fans) could benefit. The attempts to remove Estate from the mix only hurts everyone. They get tied in lawsuits for years, items don't get released or get released very limited way and it creates the divided fan reaction. I don't get this.

I guess after working with Michael for over 20 years, BLS feels he knows best what MJ wanted, and prefers to work with others to get there. I agree it flies in the face of rationality, but there are lots of people who take irrational views in life.... I suppose some prefer to take risks and hope for the best, because the 'prize' is potentially worth it.

 

[ivy]

^^
20 years? I think their closest time was between 1984 to 1993. after 1993 I believe they only saw each other once or twice. Even Tohme's "gifting" letter acknowledged that Michael hadn't been to the hangar for long time

-------------------------

also allow me to post this here as well

 

[Bubs]

I guess after working with Michael for over 20 years, BLS feels he knows best what MJ wanted, and prefers to work with others to get there. I agree it flies in the face of rationality, but there are lots of people who take irrational views in life.... I suppose some prefer to take risks and hope for the best, because the 'prize' is potentially worth it.

Did Brett really knew what Michael wanted to do? That monument idea might have been in MJ's mind in the timeline Ivy posted above, but we know for 100% fact that he wanted to build children's hospital, and he didn't say anything about monument for himself.
If Brett is doing this Michael in his mind and not for himself, then he should donate money he makes towards Michael's real dream.

 

[passy001]

MODERATORS, this is downright BULLYING!

No one should get away with a post like that! :no:

Please, do something about this. Thank you!


@passy001: I have reported you for this viscious attack on a fellow mjjcommunity member. You disagree with Tygger or anyone else, fine. You suggest someone should be shot, not so fine. Will be dealt with, hopefully.

You sound like those stupid school teachers here in the U.S who can't tell the difference between a clock and a bomb.

 

[passy001]

no!

There is absolutely nothing acceptable about another member suggesting physical violence toward another because of a disagreement.

Such outrageous behavior should not be encouraged, supported, or ignored.

Absolutely shameful!

Michael Jackson was not a slave.

Stop promoting the unscrupulous exploitation of his work.

His estate or children should be compensated for his work.

 

[passy001]

Did Brett really knew what Michael wanted to do? That monument idea might have been in MJ's mind in the timeline Ivy posted above, but we know for 100% fact that he wanted to build children's hospital, and he didn't say anything about monument for himself.
If Brett is doing this Michael in his mind and not for himself, then he should donate money he makes towards Michael's real dream.

Don't waste your time dreaming. all of these people are crooks.

 

[passy001]

^^
20 years? I think their closest time was between 1984 to 1993. after 1993 I believe they only saw each other once or twice. Even Tohme's "gifting" letter acknowledged that Michael hadn't been to the hangar for long time

-------------------------

also allow me to post this here as well

and some idiot has the nerve to claim MJ does not own his artwork.

 

[myosotis]

^^
20 years? I think their closest time was between 1984 to 1993. after 1993 I believe they only saw each other once or twice. Even Tohme's "gifting" letter acknowledged that Michael hadn't been to the hangar for long time

I mentioned 'over 20 years' because Brett indicates in the book that 'while Michael was preparing for the concerts in London (in 2009), he (Brett) was preparing for Michael's art exhibition.

I don't think that Michael would need to have visited the storage hangars very much after the drawings were finished and stored there ( the latest work seems to be dated 2002). The Alliance owned a house which seems not to have been sold until 2005. Brett mentioned Michael going ' to the house' in an interview.

I came into the house, and I heard this dog barking and thought, Wow, I wonder what that is. I go into the kitchen, and I couldn’t help but laugh when I see Michael up in the pots and pans in the middle of the center island.

(Interview source as before)

As to Tohme, his actions may well be indefensible. I certainly don't wish to defend him. Tohme seems to have done a lot of inexcusable things. I don't know yet whether misusing his Power of Attorney was one of them.

 

[Tygger]

MODERATORS, this is downright BULLYING!

No one should get away with a post like that! :no:

Please, do something about this. Thank you!


@passy001: I have reported you for this viscious attack on a fellow mjjcommunity member. You disagree with Tygger or anyone else, fine. You suggest someone should be shot, not so fine. Will be dealt with, hopefully.

Wednesday, again, your courage to post publicly about a wrong you (and others) witnessed is appreciated and commendable.

Michael referred to Theodore Roosevelt in TDCAU. Roosevelt was quoted as saying: “knowing what’s right doesn’t mean much unless you do what’s right.”

Bravo.

 

[Deleted member 9375]

Michael Jackson was not a slave.

Stop promoting the unscrupulous exploitation of his work.

His estate or children should be compensated for his work.

His kids yeah, his estate? Not so sure. They've been reprehensible concerning several matters and I don't particularly feel any loyalties to an entity that hasn't always shown complete loyalty to Michael's work, not sure about their own morals and ethics to be quite honest. Hey that's me. I'm buying this book. And even if the art was in the possession of the estate I highly doubt it would see the light of day. I'm not suggesting that BLS has any loyalties either, but anyone who seems to be in the business of Michael Jackson in this day and age seem to have zero loyalties, and I include the estate in that. Just because their the offical body, doesn't give them the right to do half of the things they've done. Peace out.

 

[Rhilo]

^Except, the Estate represents him, and is for the benefit of his beneficiaries.

 

[Deleted member 9375]

^Except, the Estate represents him, and is for the benefit of his beneficiaries.

Perhaps, but I have no relationship with the estate, my relationship is purely between Michael's art and myself. And I make no appologies. Financially, his beneficiaries will be ok, I have no doubts, I've bought every single thing thus far including a plagiarised album, TII which in hindsight I'm not entirely sure how I feel about anymore and everything else. Hypocritcal of me? Yeah perhaps, but in hindsight everything is a lot easier to make such a judgment. And I'll probably keep supporting them as I'm going to MJ One in March. I can see both sides of the argument but I don't particularly lean one way or the other. The estate cleared his debt in 3 years which to their absolute credit is remarkable, I can't agree with everything they've done though, they've lied on occasion. Anyways I take your point.

 

[passy001]

Perhaps, but I have no relationship with the estate, my relationship is purely between Michael's art and myself. And I make no appologies. Financially, his beneficiaries will be ok, I have no doubts, I've bought every single thing thus far including a plagiarised album, TII which in hindsight I'm not entirely sure how I feel about anymore and everything else. Hypocritcal of me? Yeah perhaps, but in hindsight everything is a lot easier to make such a judgment. And I'll probably keep supporting them as I'm going to MJ One in March. I can see both sides of the argument but I don't particularly lean one way or the other. The estate cleared his debt in 3 years which to their absolute credit is remarkable, I can't agree with everything they've done though, they've lied on occasion. Anyways I take your point.

When you die tomorrow your estate will take over your assets, debts, and business affairs. Thus, anyone that used to deal with you in life, will now have to deal with your estate. Essentially an estate is an entity acting on your behalf as a dead man. However, since your estate cannot do anything by itself as it is not a natural person, you will need to appoint executors to manage your estate. Think of it as setting up a company and appointing directors and executives. The difference though is that the estate will be for the benefit of the people you nominate through your will and testament as beneficiaries. whereas a company, while you are alive, is for your own benefit.

The exact same thing applies to MJ. No questions about that.

By supporting the unscrupulous exploitation of MJ copyrighted work i.e music, movies, artwork, and so on, you are harming him i.e his estate and beneficiaries since you are depriving him the opportunity to profit off his own work while he's dead. in order words, MJ is a slave working for free. NOBODY on this planet will ever agree to these conditions. NOBODY ever works for free. MJ has liabilities towards creditors, and responsibilities towards his children and beneficiaries. without money his can't attend to those from the grave.

you may have your beef against, the executors. that is your right. but it is WRONG and UNACCEPTABLE to promote or support the UNSCRUPULOUS exploitation of MJ work. That man for all his suffering, deserves at the very least to be compensated. you can't sing in one hand "Oh I'm a proud MJ fan" yet on the other hand deliberately promote the unscrupulous exploitation of his work. this is contradictory. I expect this sort of attitude from the haters. that's all they do. casing harm to MJ, his estate, and children. but why would a fan want to do that?

The people selling the book are keeping all the money in their pockets. Meanwhile MJ, nor his estate or children get NOTHING. Is that fair?