no one can complain about michael lip syncing again

[83magic]

I didn't know that. I only went to small gigs so whatever was happening at big shows clearly passed me by. I thought it came along much later.


tv shows don't count. Miming on pop music shows goes back to the early 70's, at the very least. Most TOTP performances were mimed. Everyone understood that, it's a completely different thing. Although, when someone did perform live, it was massively exciting, imo.


And was also known for insisting on doing many more takes even after people assured him that the first take was 'the one'. 91 vocal takes for BJ. I can't remember how many takes he did for Smile but he went on beyond the first take, afaik, even though that first take is the one that got him the standing ovation from Bruce and the orchestra.


I'm not saying it takes 20 hours for a single song. I'm saying that recording sessions go on until the early hours of the morning, very often, and that's physically punishing and not very healthy. Maybe not quite as bad as touring. At least you get to go back to your own home. But it's still a harsh regime.


Typically 18 months - 2 years to tour a successful record. I'm not saying touring isn't hard on everyone, especially the singer. It is really hard. But recording is also punishing. Musicians seem to enjoy it more bc they are at home and they are creating new and different stuff whereas on tour they are slogging through the same set list each night. Otoh, they get the energy exchange with the audience and they love that, also.


But he didn't have to. He didn't have to dance to SIM. He could have just stood there and performed the song.


I'm aware of this. I don't really want to discuss specific tours or shows that Michael did. I'm saying he could have made different decisions. He could have sung SIM live, ditched the dancing just for that one song.

I didn't know that. I only went to small gigs so whatever was happening at big shows clearly passed me by. I thought it came along much later.


tv shows don't count. Miming on pop music shows goes back to the early 70's, at the very least. Most TOTP performances were mimed. Everyone understood that, it's a completely different thing. Although, when someone did perform live, it was massively exciting, imo.


And was also known for insisting on doing many more takes even after people assured him that the first take was 'the one'. 91 vocal takes for BJ. I can't remember how many takes he did for Smile but he went on beyond the first take, afaik, even though that first take is the one that got him the standing ovation from Bruce and the orchestra.


I'm not saying it takes 20 hours for a single song. I'm saying that recording sessions go on until the early hours of the morning, very often, and that's physically punishing and not very healthy. Maybe not quite as bad as touring. At least you get to go back to your own home. But it's still a harsh regime.


Typically 18 months - 2 years to tour a successful record. I'm not saying touring isn't hard on everyone, especially the singer. It is really hard. But recording is also punishing. Musicians seem to enjoy it more bc they are at home and they are creating new and different stuff whereas on tour they are slogging through the same set list each night. Otoh, they get the energy exchange with the audience and they love that, also.


But he didn't have to. He didn't have to dance to SIM. He could have just stood there and performed the song.


I'm aware of this. I don't really want to discuss specific tours or shows that Michael did. I'm saying he could have made different decisions. He could have sung SIM live, ditched the dancing just for that one song.

in that video I posted, janet was miming at a concert tour in 1990. it wasn’t just tv shows that this happened on.

it’s also the type of act that needs to be taken into consideration. michael was a dance act for the most part (or at least he became one). dance was something that he spoke more passionately about than any of his other talents. he did it because he wanted to, not because he felt he had to. he couldn’t even stand still when he performed ‘music and me’ in ‘75. it was something that was innate within him. his way of becoming one with the music. it was central to his performances and what myself, and many fans, came to expect and loveasking him not to dance is like asking sonic the hedgehog not to run. ‘stranger in moscow’ is a uniquely percussive song, despite being a ballad. the movements work very well with it, and add an extra layer to the story. michael was a fan of mime artists such as marcel marceau, and he was inspired by bob fosse.

I know I’m in the minority (probably *the* minority), but I would feel cheated if michael didn’t dance during a show. I certainly wouldn’t be interested if he stood onstage playing a guitar like countless other artists.

 

[83magic]

Elton has always been a bit bitchy tbh. I'm not a fan of Madonna good songs but (crap singer) so I'm glad he called her out.

I don't think he was too big for the headline slot on say a Sunday at Glastonbury - it would have been brilliant for his career. Look at the response Beyonce got from Coachella.

I appreciate you're a staunch defender of Michael but it feels like no matter what we say, you will have an excuse for MJ not performing live.

I am not a staunch defender of michael. my posts calling him out for planting stories in the media, prove this. I’ve even been accused of not being a ‘real fan’ because my preferences don’t go beyond ‘we are the world’.

michael could have, and did perform at a variety of events. janet played glastonbury, and she initially received good editorial reviews. it was twitter that made an issue of some miming and sound issues that created a backlash. had it been michael’s show, I feel it would have been a lot better.

I attended the ‘history’ concert in wembley in ‘97. it was the only concert I’ve ever been to. I didn’t know or care if michael was miming. that was the last thing on my mind. in fact, I don’t remember anyone other than the fans making such an issue out of it. michael did what he felt he needed to for the betterment of his show. he didn’t need an excuse to mime, and I’m not making any for him. I’m just saying that it’s not a bad thing (it’s actually better in my opinion), and that there are other elements that make the experience as a whole entertaining.

 

[mj_frenzy]

I mean, a series of shorter live shows where he just showed off his beautiful voice.

Michael Jackson was not that type of artist.

If one wants to watch such shows, then there is Rod Stewart, Eric Clapton, and so on.

that's not what fans expect from a concert
they want the real thing, even if it's not perfect

There are also many music critics who are going to disparage an artist in case during the concert his/her live vocals are not good.

That is also why many artists choose to lip-sync their songs on stage (so as to avoid bad reviews).

It would be worse for an artist to be criticized (on reviews, newspapers, magazines, etc) for his bad, live singing voice than to be criticized for lip-syncing.

 

[Blues_Away2023]

Michael was a SINGER!!!

Saying that Michael was not that type of artist is silly.

The whole smoke and mirrors big show spectacle is a lame excuse that the reality was his live singing voice was not up to scratch as he got older. The BAD tour was perfect, the odd lip syncing a few numbers isn't the issue here - it's the complete lack of real live singing as the 90s went on.

Beyonce sings live and puts on a huge show, what's her excuse?

For what it's worth, after the Dangerous tour, Michael's vocals were a screechy painful weak mess live.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Michael Jackson was not that type of artist.

He was any type of artist he wanted to be. His talents were many and varied. No reason for him to restrict himself to one approach.

If one wants to watch such shows, then there is Rod Stewart, Eric Clapton, and so on.

Meaningless statement. Many of us are capable of imagining how brilliant Michael would be if he did a low-key show. Mainly bc we have the footage of him performing at Live in Mexico to use one obvious example. Yes, he was younger then but that's not the point. He never lost the ability to perform like that. He chose not to, which is disappointing. Michael was loved and he had a huge fan base. It absolutely would have worked, I am sure of it.

There are also many music critics who are going to disparage an artist in case during the concert his/her live vocals are not good.
That is also why many artists choose to lip-sync their songs on stage (so as to avoid bad reviews).
It would be worse for an artist to be criticized (on reviews, newspapers, magazines, etc) for his bad, live singing voice than to be criticized for lip-syncing.

This is all meaningless. Michael had a beautiful singing voice. A low-key show would have been a great showcase.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Michael was a SINGER!!!
Saying that Michael was not that type of artist is silly.

I'm bailing out of the convo bc they tend to go round and round in circles, ime. The other thing that happens - and we have it here - is I think there are really two separate conversations going on. I'm actually not arguing about HWT bc that's quite complicated. I'm all about, I wish Michael had shown an interest in doing some low-key unplugged type of shows, completely separate from the stadium shows. Actually, it's really a problem linked to him dying at such a young age bc round about now would have been a nice time for him to start doing shows in a different way. I mean, he didn't have to wait this long. Madonna's Madame X tour - which I think was 2015 - was a theatre tour. She didn't do the big stadiums for that one. So Michael absolutely could have approached things differently. Not copying Madonna, of course. But he didn't always have to do huge shows in huge stadiums. His fan base is huge but Madonna's fan base must be pretty big and she still did the theatre tour. Kylie Minogue (who is 55) is doing a Las Vegas residency which starts in November and she's capped the audience at 1,000. There's a lot of scope in how to present a live show.

He isn't here so we'll never know what decisions he might have made. We'll never know if he would have changed his mind. We have the Live In Mexico footage. If we had even one show like that with his mature voice that would be beyond awesome. We have a few little fragments from TII. He had the voice. It was there and it was beautiful. A performance that showcased his voice above anything else would have been such a gift.

 

[83magic]

Michael was a SINGER!!!

Saying that Michael was not that type of artist is silly.

The whole smoke and mirrors big show spectacle is a lame excuse that the reality was his live singing voice was not up to scratch as he got older. The BAD tour was perfect, the odd lip syncing a few numbers isn't the issue here - it's the complete lack of real live singing as the 90s went on.

Beyonce sings live and puts on a huge show, what's her excuse?

For what it's worth, after the Dangerous tour, Michael's vocals were a screechy painful weak mess live.

you’ve just proved @mj_frenzy point. you complained about michael miming, yet you claim his live vocals in the 90’s were a mess. every artist/performer reaches their peak before declining. no one stays on top forever. would you prefer for michael to retire from touring after the 80’s? what are your other solutions? you already claimed that he couldn’t pull off an intimate setting.

beyonce mimed her performance of ‘star spangled banner’ at the obama inauguration. she received backlash and explained her reasons for doing that. again, people are not machines. there are circumstances for why these things happen.

whitney houston mimed her performance of ‘the star spangled banner’ in the previous years. only most people didn’t notice, and her rendition is recognised as being the best, to the point where it was released as a single in america.

neither of those situations involved the energy it takes to dance. yet michael is singled out and made to look worse.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

After a certain point, we had just hoped MJ would have done anything. He was thoroughly exhausted of all that though, even as early as his 30s.

He was forced to do it out of obligation, he didn't get to say no. Until he did. Then, he did. Then they forced him all over again, and look at it.

It's a contractual obligation, it was a job, at the end of the day. Plenty of people have done worse to get out a job. The average person will go crazy and commit violent acts before staying in a job they hate. MJ wanted to move on from that stuff, live performing for wages. The way he did, he made guaranteed money of it at least. It's a lotta talk, but would people have really gone for a Clockwork Orange Bad and tap dance Thriller?

Does that mean he had to lip sync? Again, that made it as easy as possible for him.

I just watched singing in the rain recently, and lemme say, that movie did make a big impression. I'm sure MJ imagined a vision for himself more like that, singing dancing, making theatre and cinematic art. That's where his passion was and that was the vision he wanted to give. Why deny him that.

 

[zinniabooklover]

After a certain point, we had just hoped MJ would have done anything. He was thoroughly exhausted of all that though, even as early as his 30s.

He was forced to do it out of obligation, he didn't get to say no. Until he did. Then, he did. Then they forced him all over again, and look at it.

It's a contractual obligation, it was a job, at the end of the day. Plenty of people have done worse to get out a job. The average person will go crazy and commit violent acts before staying in a job they hate. MJ wanted to move on from that stuff, live performing for wages. The way he did, he made guaranteed money of it at least. It's a lotta talk, but would people have really gone for a Clockwork Orange Bad and tap dance Thriller?

Does that mean he had to lip sync? Again, that made it as easy as possible for him.

I just watched singing in the rain recently, and lemme say, that movie did make a big impression. I'm sure MJ imagined a vision for himself more like that, singing dancing, making theatre and cinematic art. That's where his passion was and that was the vision he wanted to give. Why deny him that.

I don't disagree with any of this and it's why I'm reluctant to stay in these convos bc it always ends up looking like you're saying you want Michael to flog himself half to death. I've said it before, I'll say it again. I would not want Michael to be drained of his lifeblood just to perform for his audience. My fantasies about all of this revolve around Michael wanting to do this type of show bc he wants to try something different. If he didn't want to do it, no problem. He's not a machine.

 

[Blues_Away2023]

I'm bailing out of the convo bc they tend to go round and round in circles, ime. The other thing that happens - and we have it here - is I think there are really two separate conversations going on. I'm actually not arguing about HWT bc that's quite complicated. I'm all about, I wish Michael had shown an interest in doing some low-key unplugged type of shows, completely separate from the stadium shows. Actually, it's really a problem linked to him dying at such a young age bc round about now would have been a nice time for him to start doing shows in a different way. I mean, he didn't have to wait this long. Madonna's Madame X tour - which I think was 2015 - was a theatre tour. She didn't do the big stadiums for that one. So Michael absolutely could have approached things differently. Not copying Madonna, of course. But he didn't always have to do huge shows in huge stadiums. His fan base is huge but Madonna's fan base must be pretty big and she still did the theatre tour. Kylie Minogue (who is 55) is doing a Las Vegas residency which starts in November and she's capped the audience at 1,000. There's a lot of scope in how to present a live show.

He isn't here so we'll never know what decisions he might have made. We'll never know if he would have changed his mind. We have the Live In Mexico footage. If we had even one show like that with his mature voice that would be beyond awesome. We have a few little fragments from TII. He had the voice. It was there and it was beautiful. A performance that showcased his voice above anything else would have been such a gift.

Yeah same here , it does feel like we're going round in circles and it's not fair to keep at it.

Speaking of TII , the best part of the film was listening to MJ sing Human Nature so beautifully LIVE!!

That's what live singing is all about. Like me, I bet you loved the acapella part at the start and then the growl into the I like loving this way lyric during it.

 

[dethorro]

This whole miming thing wasn't quite so widespread back then. I mean, I don't like it even now but it's become standard, afaik. But in the 90's I don't think it was standard.

We have practically moved on from lip-synching being standard at live concerts, in fact. Most singers nowadays have the "luxury" of performing with live auto-tune, which means that their voice gets corrected in real time. Lip-synching to lead vocals from original studio recordings is not really something that's being done anymore. In the odd case where a singer lip-synchs, they will re-record vocals, specifically for live shows, so as to at least give the impression that they are singing live.

 

[zinniabooklover]

We have practically moved on from lip-synching being standard at live concerts, in fact. Most singers nowadays have the "luxury" of performing with live auto-tune, which means that their voice gets corrected in real time. Lip-synching to lead vocals from original studio recordings is not really something that's being done anymore. In the odd case where a singer lip-synchs, they will re-record vocals, specifically for live shows, so as to at least give the impression that they are singing live.

I know but I didn't want to get into all of this.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I don't disagree with any of this and it's why I'm reluctant to stay in these convos bc it always ends up looking like you're saying you want Michael to flog himself half to death. I've said it before, I'll say it again. I would not want Michael to be drained of his lifeblood just to perform for his audience. My fantasies about all of this revolve around Michael wanting to do this type of show bc he wants to try something different. If he didn't want to do it, no problem. He's not a machine.

Well around here we insist on restating ourselves repeatedly. Because people seem to live in denial and in the past.

But yeah, MJ would revolutionize the concept of intimate shows.

 

[filmandmusic]

There is no doubt imo that Michael would be doing more intimate shows post "This is it". He expressed that interest in 1995, he wanted to be closer to the fans and he wanted to do things differently after 2 decades of huge shows. I also think he wouldn't be making pop albums anymore. He might have surprised many people and critics with what else he had in his locker.

This is what he said in 1995:

“I think that is the mark of a true performer, to be able to reach any audience around the world, any size, said Jackson when asked about the notion of performing a more intimate show."
“If you can directly relate to a small group, magic starts to happen. I started out playing those kinds of concerts. [The HBO special] is intimate. It’s close-up. It will allow me to do a lot of things I’ve never done before.”

This matches a lot of what Prince said in an interview I read here a week or two ago.

But we all know what happened, I think he wasn't sure all would have worked perfectly, the rehearsal time was too short, the perfectionist in him created too much pressure and he collapsed.

Why it then got ditched altogether I have no idea but Michael was constantly creative so he always had other plans and I guess he lost enthusiasm for it at the time.

 

[analogue]

The "he wanted it to sound just like a record" argument is really overdone guys

I always hated that excuse. If I wanted something to sound like the record then I'd just listen to the record

 

[FallingFree]

Kylie Minogue (who is 55) is doing a Las Vegas residency which starts in November and she's capped the audience at 1,000.

Since you mention Kylie, is the man on the right the **** who think it is at her show last night...

Is so, then thank God, I didn't get tickets for that date.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Since you mention Kylie, is the man on the right the **** who think it is at her show last night...

Is so, then thank God, I didn't get tickets for that date.

Why would he be at a random Kylie Minogue show?

 

[FallingFree]

Why would he be at a random Kylie Minogue show?

The same as anyone else goes to watch a show.

But it does look like him, no?