Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[ivy]

Didn't TJ say leg work rather than legal work to get Kai back?

yes he said leg work and apparently he also said he wasn't aware of this lawsuit up until 4 months ago - which is probably when they got served for depositions.

 

[Vici]

^^ Oh ok, so he said leg work and not legal work? My bad

I find it a bit odd that TJ said he didnt knew about the AEG trial up untill 4 months ago... I mean come on now

 

[LastTear]

yes he said leg work and apparently he also said he wasn't aware of this lawsuit up until 4 months ago - which is probably when they got served for depositions.

It's a stretch to see how that's possible, IMHO

 

[AliCat]

"BRIDGEPORT -- The wrongful death lawsuit brought by the family of Michael Jackson will have two well-known local experts center stage when testimony resumes Tuesday.

Michael Koskoff, a partner in the Bridgeport-based law firm Koskoff, Koskoff & Bieder, is on the Jackson family's legal team and will be questioning a doctor from Westport, Dr. Sidney Schnoll, who is an expert on drug addictions.

Although they are both area residents and both have been brought into the case because of their expertise in medical malpractice and addiction, the two men had never met before they began work on the case.

"We looked around the country for the top specialists, like we always do, and it is a total coincidence that he happened to live in Westport," Koskoff said Monday by telephone from Los Angeles.

"The hitch was that if the tour was postponed or canceled, the doctor would be out of a job," the Bridgeport lawyer said. "That created a conflict of interest and a tremendous amount of pressure on (Murray)," Koskoff said.

The civil lawsuit filed by Katherine Jackson accuses AEG of negligence in retaining Murray and forcing Jackson to agree to be under his care or to risk having the tour canceled. The suit also alleges that AEG participated in allowing Murray to act without adhering to proper medical standards.
http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Conn-experts-in-Michael-Jackson-death-trial-4641351.php

There was pressure on Conrad Murray to make sure Michael Jackson performed. Conrad Murray should have acted like there was pressure put on him. Then Michael Jackson may still be alive. The free enterprise system that America is founded on, makes for a better product, giving one the competative edge and that's how business becomes successful. I do not see that about Conrad Murray at all. There was a trust between doctor and patient and AEG Live had the meetings involving Conrad Murray's care of his patient, Michael Jackson. The negligence is Conrad Murray's fault, not because he was pressured, but because he didn't seem too concerned about his patient, Michael Jackson. That was why Conrad Murray was found guilty!

 

[ivy]

It's a stretch to see how that's possible, IMHO

It sound unbelievable but assuming they don't read media about any stories about them, it can show that there's a communication issue or different camps inside the family. Such as one group if filing and pursuing the lawsuit and the others only become aware of it when they get a deposition subpoena.

 

[LastTear]

It sound unbelievable but assuming they don't read media about any stories about them, it can show that there's a communication issue or different camps inside the family. Such as one group if filing and pursuing the lawsuit and the others only become aware of it when they get a deposition subpoena.

It might well be the truth for all I know, I was thinking if its possible given the amount of time he spends over in their house.

 

[Tygger]

Yes, Michael did want that. So why did he chose Murray?

Michael trusted doctors and we have seen that some have been unethical with him. This was one of very few doctors who said yes to the request. The doctor was not going to admit he was not qualified to anesthetize Michael because he wanted to be paid.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 55m
She’s having the attorneys craft a statement to read to the jury when they come in and HR expert Jean Seawright resumes testifying.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 56m
Panish was also concerned because Palazuelos told the jury the guidance against employment-related credit checks was a law, which isn’t.
Expand
Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 56m
Judge Yvette Palazuelos said questions about the document could be asked, but it wouldn’t be allowed into evidence.
Expand
Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 56m
Plaintiff’s attorney Brian Panish argued the document was a non-binding policy and shouldn’t be raised during trial.

Good. It seems the defense was attempting the race card with a EEO guideline and that is very desperate on their part.

 

[Aquarius]

I find this interesting:

"Anthony McCartney ?@mccartneyAP 4m
For employees' with "safety sensitive" roles (which Seawright believes Conrad Murray qualified as), credit screens were done in 5% of cases.""

So, what's the % when the employee/doctor is recommended by the employer/patient?

 

[Aquarius]

What worried me about Taj's testimony was this bit:
ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 27 Jun
Taj became the person in charge of MJ's storage and belongings.

Is he a person to trust? I asked before, why does the estate is getting some of the J involve in Michael's bus? Did Michael ever involved them in their bus?

Something I'm curious about is when Taj was talking about NL, he said Michael didn't like or eat candy, but I read somewhere he liked it, even when he was a child and I remember seeing Michael with a lollipop in TII. So, did he like it or not?

 

[8701girl]

For $ 40 billion, they would say anything.

Yep sad but true

 

[Bubs]

TJ not knowing about trial untill 4 months ago is more than stretch. According to Katherine and TJ's testimony, he has been around kids and doing things for them since MJ died, and he was named co-guardian after last summer episode.
I doubt that kids didn't say a thing to him about their worries of coming trial.

Then again, if he indeed wasn't aware of this trial, that would explain his complete ignorance of what was going on in Paris life and why he failed to take notice of Paris' suffering. If that is the case, TJ should ask himself whether he is suitable guardian to kids.

Is he a person to trust? I asked before, why does the estate is getting some of the J involve in Michael's bus? Did Michael ever involved them in their bus?

Something I'm curious about is when Taj was talking about NL, he said Michael didn't like or eat candy, but I read somewhere he liked it, even when he was a child and I remember seeing Michael with a lollipop in TII. So, did he like it or not?

I think the executors has someone from 3T to on payroll, but I cannot remember which one, could be Taj, and I think jackie is on payroll too.
I cannot say whether he is trustworthy or not, everybody forms their opinion from what they read or see.
I personally believed when MJ died that most of his members of family were good guys, but one after another, they have dropped off my list of good guys. Now it is just easier for me to put them all into list that are not so good and they get promotion in my eyes if they show or do something good, other words, if they are good for MJ and don't use their family relation to promote their own agendas.
Note this is only me and how it works for me

About MJ involving them to his business, I don't think he did.
"I think he wanted us to earn things in our own," TJ explained, saying MJ would not use his power to benefit the group.

About MJ not eating candy, this is from Oprah interview:
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): I'll let you think about it while I ask you the same question, your favorite memory.
PRINCE JACKSON: When we were on Bahrain, we used to wake up early and walk the beach. OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): When you were in Bahrain?
PRINCE JACKSON: With a Coke.
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Yeah?
PRINCE JACKSON: Yeah, Coca-Cola and Skittles or Snickers.
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Waking up and walking the beach.
PRINCE JACKSON: Yeah.
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Mm-hmm. That's a good one.
PARIS JACKSON: I just have to say spending some "quality time" away from the two, just me and him.
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Mm-hmm.
PARIS JACKSON: The one time we went on the roof when we were in Las Vegas--of our house--and we just saw the Luxor lights. We just saw all the city of lights. We were eating Snickers, and we had some soda, and...

and lastly:

 

[Bubs]

"I disagree. Michael wanted someone that specialized in anesthesia and the cardiologist did not."

Yes, Michael did want that. So why did he chose Murray?

I was back-reading testimonies and came across with this:
Dr. Matheson said the record shows Dr. Finkelstein didn't get the job because MJ wanted to bring his own physician.

I assume that there was talk about other doctors but MJ only wanted CM. We will hear more when Finkelstein testifies.

 

[Bubs]

Was this exhibit talked here?
http://www.psblaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Exhibit-304-JB-16-21.pdf

Lol @ RP saying Joe J is very stupid and Branca saying that MJ needs to take care of himself first before he can help his family.
His family consist grown men and women old enough to take care of themselves :angry:
Why they always relied on Michael to save their sorry arses?

I believe, later AEG will bring out more about how family added stress to MJ.

 

[ivy]

Was this exhibit talked here?
http://www.psblaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Exhibit-304-JB-16-21.pdf

Lol @ RP saying Joe J is very stupid and Branca saying that MJ needs to take care of himself first before he can help his family.
His family consist grown men and women old enough to take care of themselves :angry:
Why they always relied on Michael to save their sorry arses?

I believe, later AEG will bring out more about how family added stress to MJ.

I think Randy's email that say they had a very productive meeting with Murray was mentioned. Not the other parts or the rest of it.

The rest is All Good Entertainments one night only Jackson show and pay per view (ppv) . Allgood had approached Joe & Leonard Rowe, Joe had sent them to Dileo, and Joe and Leonard Rowe was pushing for it. Phillips was right in saying that "these people are litigious" not only they sued Michael and later his Estate but they also served AEG papers to stop TII concerts. Luckily Michael had not signed anything and their "contract" with Dileo was just Dileo promising to talk to Michael and Allgood actually breached their contract first by not paying Dileo for his expenses. Obviously a MJ concert pay per view would bring more money than a Jacksons show and they wanted to keep the ability to be able to release London concerts.

 

[Bubs]

^^ Was Michael's TII going to be on ppv, or are you talking about family show with Allgood was going to be ppv?

On different note, I cannot belive that last summers granny-napping happeded and that Randy's infamous letter was sent out after reading those emails and seeing evidense post-it notes from MJ which included instructions to future business ideas to Branca. Shaking my head @ Randy's stupidity:no:

 

[AliCat]

"LOS ANGELES (CBSLA.com) — A new witness took the stand Tuesday in the Michael Jackson wrongful death trial.

Drug addiction specialist Dr. Sidney Schnoll told the jury many times an addiction can be cured if a doctor gets to the root of the problem.

A human resources expert for the prosecution also finished her testimony Tuesday.

Jean Seawright told jurors AEG “did indeed fail to follow adequate hiring processes” when dealing with Murray.

She testified had officials at the firm done a credit check on the physician, executives would have seen he was deeply in debt and might have been motivated by his $150,000-a-month salary and not his patient’s well-being.

Attorneys for AEG produced guidelines from the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) that said financial background checks on potential employees can be discriminatory and to use caution before doing them.
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013...tand-in-michael-jackson-wrongful-death-trial/

Conrad Murray was not applying for a job in the financial world, working with other people's money, then it would make more sense to do a credit report check on him. Michael Jackson had a poor financial background, including being sued for taking the money and running. AEG Live believed in Michael Jackson. How do we know? We watch the movie, "This Is It." AEG Live wanted Michael Jackson to be happy, so they allowed Michael Jackson to be the Architect of the Shows for London at the 02 Arena. A lot of money was poured into production costs, it was truly the way Michael Jackson loved to do things, the competitive edge he had within him, to produce the very best Shows as the best Entertainer who ever lived!

 

[bouee]

to be clear, I have no intention to convince you. If you read my posts in other threads you'll see that I believe it's futile to try to change a persons opinions when they are already set. I'm just trying to explain you my perspective, nothing more. .

It's not really "nothing more" in my book when you dissect every part of my posts- and not only mine, - twisting what I said , and going back and forth 3 or 4 times about the same things. We disagree , I think I can have my opinions , as much as you can have yours.

Okay and some of them had more & different information than Phillips. To me Kai knowing a doctor is in the house when Michael is sleeping + oxygen tanks is a lot more reasonable to foresee that whatever doctor is doing is associated with sleep.

Kai never asked Murray if Michael was OK, so she never heard Murray saying "Michael was fine" in spite of his health deteriorating. If she had heard that, then maybe it would have made her wonder about Murray.

Passy001 had a wonderful explanation, I'll be brief. According to the coroner Michael was fine. He was healthy. He did not die because of malnutrition, sleep deprivation etc. He died because of Propofol intoxication. If Murray monitored him and did a simple chin lift or called 911 timely Michael would have been alive.

It's exactly what i'v been saying, 2 or 3 times already. No need to explain it again. Michael died because of Murray's negligence. i was here during Murray's trial, taking notes for this forum. I remember what was said.

I don't get how his negligence was foreseeable before Michael's death. Yes criminal trial proved Murray was negligent but that was after Michael's death. I don't get what do you expect people to look before Michael's death and think "this doctor would harm him".

I think it was foreseeable, because Michael's health was deteriorating under Murray's care + Murray, accroding to Phillips since PG doesn't remember, kept telling them Michael was fine+ they keep lying / not remembering about that . Phillips, at least, had enough info to connect the dots. Yet, he pressured Murray to send Michael to rehearsals.

This is an accusation and twisting what I said. I'll explain it below and I'll make a request from you.

There was a question mark at the end of my sentence, so that was a question. You keep accusing others , getting into arguments with people who are usually not confrontational, and it's offensive if I merely answer ?

now my request : you don't know what is in my mind and what I think, so please ask me first before you accuse me of anything.

I'm going by what you post here, I never pretended to read your mind .
And I'm totally tired of this kind of attacks, so I don't think I'll be coming back to this thread.

probably is not enough for me and probably won't be enough for the jury.

twisting what i said again , quoting myself :

Phillips and probably Gongaware too knew Murray was spending the night.

probably was for Gongaware- and due it his memory losses.
I frankly don't remember if Phillips said sleep issues were discussed on the 16th- I know he eventually itdmitted to it on the 20th. But if they were also discussed on 16th, which I believe, PG was there, ins spite of him not remembering. And I believe that after the 16th, they knew what Murray's job was, otherwise it makes no sense for them to hire a nutritionnist. The doctor could have done that.

 

[bouee]

Michael had enough time to think things through if he wanted himself to pull the plug. He did not. Still, Michael Jackson had not signed the AEG Live contract, to ensure that AEG Live would now pay Conrad Murray's salary.

As far as we know, Michael did not sign any contract for the other indep contractors that he requested (For ex Ortega, Karen, Travis... ) The AEG-Murray contract was never sent to him or to his lawyers : how could he know that he was supposed to sign Murray's contract at that point ?

Then he was not well , he was pressured to rehearse, and we know he knew Phillips was talking to Murray behind his back.
What I mean is that it is becoming rellly hard to figure out what he was thinking that particular last week.

 

[AliCat]

As far as we know, Michael did not sign any contract for the other indep contractors that he requested (For ex Ortega, Karen, Travis... ) The AEG-Murray contract was never sent to him or to his lawyers : how could he know that he was supposed to sign Murray's contract at that point ?

Then he was not well , he was pressured to rehearse, and we know he knew Phillips was talking to Murray behind his back.
What I mean is that it is becoming rellly hard to figure out what he was thinking that particular last week.

I have a very different perspective than you do, bouee. Saturday afternoon to Tuesday afternoon, I believe was enough time for Michael Jackson to think if he wanted to not do the Shows. So much money had been poured into production and it was going to be spectacular. If actions speak louder than words, I truly believe Michael wanted to do the Shows. The rest is up to Conrad Murray and if he had been as passionate about his patient, as Michael Jackson was about doing the best Shows, history would be different.

Most of the people surrounding Michael Jackson before he died, preparing for the scheduled Shows at the 02 Arena, had worked with Michael in the past. They didn't take advantage of Michael Jackson beforehand and that's why Michael Jackson surrounded himself with these folk, including the people that are being sued at this time. The new waters that were being explored was the IV sleep medication. This was not something Conrad Murray was an expert in, but since he had not screwed up in the several weeks before Michael died, perhaps this is why he became overconfident!

 

[ivy]

^^ Was Michael's TII going to be on ppv, or are you talking about family show with Allgood was going to be ppv?

All Good was one night only and pay per view. It's apparent from the emails that AEG also planned for a pay per view and /or a DVD release. obviously any other pay per view would reduce the value or income from an AEG / TII pay per view.

 

[crillon]

It might well be the truth for all I know, I was thinking if its possible given the amount of time he spends over in their house.

Maybe he's not spending much time there. He said he deals with the school issues for the kids and I bet that's about it

 

[Vici]

Ivy, Im seeing you RT something about judge mentioning mistrial, what is that all about??

 

[Aquarius]

@Bubs. Thanks for your comment.

It's sad when you have to put all the J in the list of bad people but what can one do with all the things that have happened and I agree with you. It's hard to know who's decent and who is not. We're outsiders, we see how they operate and it bother us, well some of us are bothered by their behavior. Michael was probably hurt.

If I had the chance to ask them one question, I would ask them what does love mean to them. If the Jacksons keep coming to court giving inaccurate statements, AEG might eat them alive.

 

[Ashtanga]

If the Jacksons keep coming to court giving inaccurate statements, AEG might eat them alive.

I'd like to see that. :fear:

 

[ivy]

Ivy, Im seeing you RT something about judge mentioning mistrial, what is that all about??

before trial there were a problem with the experts. Jackson experts all in their depositions said they believed AEG hired Murray. Now as whether or not Murray is hired and who hired him is the questions for the jury, it's not appropriate for the experts to say what they believe who hired Murray. Judge ruled they can give hypothetical such as "If AEG hired Murray" or "if Michael hired Murray" or "if AEG / Michael did not hire Murray" but they can't say stuff like "AEG hired Murray" or "Michael hired Murray".

this happened yesterday

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 7m
Panish then asked Seawright whether she believed AEG Live hired Murray, a question for the jury to decide.


Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 7m
Panish said he asked the question because Stebbins Bina asked a similar question on cross-examination.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 7m
At one point, Judge Palazuelos rubbed her hands over her face and stopped the proceedings. She turned and addressed the jury.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 7m
She explained that one of her pretrial orders was that experts could assume Murray was either hired or not hired by AEG Live.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 7m
She said the experts aren’t supposed to say whether they believe Murray was hired or not _ that was for the jury to decide.

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 13m
"I believe AEG Live hired Dr. Murray," Seawright said. Defendant's attorney objected to the response and judge sustained it.

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 13m
Judge: That's because it is your duty, iyour responsibility to say whether Dr Murray was hired. It's not up to the experts to determine that

It seems judge is still angry about it

 

[crillon]

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 7m
She said the experts aren’t supposed to say whether they believe Murray was hired or not _ that was for the jury to decide.

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 13m
"I believe AEG Live hired Dr. Murray," Seawright said. Defendant's attorney objected to the response and judge sustained it.


Surprised the AEG lawyers didn't raise their objection before Seawright answered. That's an old trick and they should have anticipated it--it's happening in the Zimmerman case, too. Even though the objection is sustained, the jury has heard it and they remember--you can't "un-ring the bell." They just can't use it in their deliberations.


Anthony McCartney &#8207;<s>@</s>mccartneyAP <small class="time"> 2h </small> Palazuelos: &#8220;This is my concern. Nine weeks into this trial and this is getting in a mistrial situation.&#8221; (We&#8217;re in 10th wk of testimony.)7

 

[8701girl]

A mistrial?

 

[jamba]

I think the EEOC guidelines being brought into the question of hiring and credit checks is interesting and puts a new spin on this (Panish got upset about this issue so he fears it IMO). Would Murray have had a fit and claimed discriminatory practices if AEG had asked him to ok a credit check??

What happened to Putnam? Seems Stebbins Bina is there a lot. I think the judge is doing somewhat better at setting some boundaries. She is raising the possibility of a mistrial as a way to keep Panish in check. Good luck with that. I can't believe he asked the expert the very question the jury is supposed to decide!!!

 

[crillon]

Michael Jackson was not abusing pain medication in years leading up to comeback tour deal with AEG Live, says doctor

Dr. Sidney Schnoll based his opinion on medical records stating the King of Pop only needed 100 milligrams of the narcotic pain medication Demerol to knock him out for a dermatology procedure in late 2008.

Michael Jackson apparently was clean and not abusing pain medication in the years leading up to his comeback tour deal with concert promoter AEG Live, a Connecticut doctor testified Wednesday.
Dr. Sidney Schnoll based his opinion on medical records stating the King of Pop only needed 100 milligrams of the narcotic pain medication Demerol to knock him out for a dermatology procedure in late 2008.

Schnoll said Jackson would have built up too much tolerance for that dose to work if he frequently abused opioids during the era of his 2005 molestation trial and subsequent travels abroad. &#8220;He would have to take a much higher dose of Demerol to get the (necessary) effect for the surgery," Schnoll told jurors. The New Jersey-born doctor was acting as a paid expert witness for Jackson&#8217;s mother, Katherine.

Katherine Jackson, 83, is suing AEG Live for wrongful death, claiming the concert promoter negligently hired Dr. Conrad Murray as tour physician and set the stage for her son&#8217;s fatal 2009 overdose on the surgery-strength anesthetic propofol. AEG vehemently denies any wrongdoing, saying Jackson personally hired Murray and begged for secret, bedroom-based infusions of the intravenous drug he called &#8220;milk.&#8221;

During his testimony, Schnoll said he didn&#8217;t believe Michael was an addict who craved and used drugs recreationally. Rather he was a patient who developed an opioid dependence because of legitimate pain related to his burned scalp. He said plenty of celebrities have suffered opioid dependence, including President John F. Kennedy, who had debilitating back pain. Schnoll said Jackson even got a Narcan implant in his abdomen in 2003 that steadily released Naltrexone, a drug that blocks the euphoric effects of opioids.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertain...#ixzz2Y2fz9mDz
​

 

[8701girl]

Thank you dr sidney schnoll for saying the truth! :clap: