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Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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I was told before that Michael didn't wake up and I hope that is true.
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It´s a pity he didn´t wake up.
Had he woken up he had started breathing again and had not died.
I´m sure CM can do CPR but when he came back to Michael after the talk to the girlfriends he saw Michael had died and it was no return it had gone to long.
Screaming for help and doing improper CPR was just a show for the galleries,he panicked and didn´t know what to do.
 
Haven't read the thread much so it may already have been posted sorry if so:

Can someone show me 100% solid evidence Michael Jackson himself went after Conrad Murray for his services and hired him. I have not seen one thing that Michael truly wanted/went after Murray. Only unsigned contracts etc.
 
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 43m
Rowe said she felt Jackson was always open and honest with her.
Chang: “Did he ever try to hide any drugs from you?”
“Not that I know of.”
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 43m
Chang asked whether Rowe remembered Paul Gongaware from the “Dangerous” tour. She did not.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 44m
Rowe: “It wasn't a secret. I used to hang out with the dancers and the people who worked with him.”
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 44m
Jackson’s struggles with pain medications were well-known on his “Dangerous” tour, Rowe said.
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" he did not tell anyone , propofol was his darkest secret .....etc " Rowe was his WIFE , she knew . The nanny knew , his doctor in LA knew , he was the one who organized everything . Puntnm can't be happy with her testimony .


Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 44m
Chang: “He couldn’t be creative?”
“He couldn’t do anything,” Rowe responded.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 45m
She said she saw him in so much pain, he would have cold sweats, grow pale, and couldn’t see or think clearly when this happened.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 45m
Rowe said she would ask Jackson about his pain on a 1-10 scale, and he would get scared if his pain approached reached level 3.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 45m
She said she wanted to make sure her friend was OK, but it wasn’t part of her job to accompany him to treatments outside of Klein’s office.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 45m
Rowe began to break down as Chang asked her to describe her helping Jackson during his medical treatments.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 45m
In the end, the keloids got “even thicker and lumpier.” Rowe said another surgery wasn't an option.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 46m
The aim was to get one keloid to contend with on Jackson’s scalp, but it wasn’t successful, Rowe said. It fell apart in 1996 or 1997.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 46m
That’s why Jackson had to have an implant placed under his scalp to expand the skin. That was done by Dr. Gordon Sasaki.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 46m
After the treatments on Jackson, there wasn't enough skin for plastic surgeon Steven Hoefflin to do a scalp reduction.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 46m
“It’s horribly painful,” Rowe said. She said in some treatments, you can hear the skin popping while the medication is administered.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 47m
Keloid tissue is very hard and dense and it requires regular injections to treat. She said an air gun is used for some of the treatments.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 47m
Rowe said keloids are extremely painful. On Jackson, they started “mid-scalp and went back to the crown,” she said.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 47m
A couple photos were shown. None of the pictures Chang showed Rowe to demonstrate medical conditions were of Jackson.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 48m
She then explained that Jackson had keloids, a series of lumpy bumps on his skin that sometimes happen to burn victims.
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The jurors got to see the pictures of keloids , no wonder AEG's lawyers objected . God forbid the jurors think he was taking meds for legitimate reasons , he was FAKING his pain to get drugs , that what AEG claimed they would prove , so far none of the medical professionals testified he faked anything to get drugs.

Randy , Janet and Rebbie Jackson I bet none of them heard about MJ suffering from keloids .
 
In addition to keloids, for whatever its worth David best said that Michael had to go through the process of ballooning. That would create on going pain for years. Each time they pump that balloon up the skin stretches and is held there.. If he had keloids around that area it must have been verrry painful.
 
MIST;3888368 said:
It´s a pity he didn´t wake up.
Had he woken up he had started breathing again and had not died.
I´m sure CM can do CPR but when he came back to Michael after the talk to the girlfriends he saw Michael had died and it was no return it had gone to long.
Screaming for help and doing improper CPR was just a show for the galleries,he panicked and didn´t know what to do.
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I think the testimony in the criminal trial supports that Michael was already gone when paramedics arrived. Had Michael just had a finger pulse monitor with an alarm on him--a relatively inexpensive piece of equipment--Murray would have heard the alarm when Michael stopped breathing and could have at least tried to save his life. Of course, we are assuming Murray would have interrupted the phone call with his baby mama to do that--which assumes a lot given his lack of integrity--and that he actually knew how to do CPR properly. He deserves no benefit of the doubt on both counts. imo
 
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Soundmind said:
" he did not tell anyone , propofol was his darkest secret .....etc " Rowe was his WIFE , she knew . The nanny knew , his doctor in LA knew , he was the one who organized everything . Puntnm can't be happy with her testimony .




The jurors got to see the pictures of keloids , no wonder AEG's lawyers objected . God forbid the jurors think he was taking meds for legitimate reasons , he was FAKING his pain to get drugs , that what AEG claimed they would prove , so far none of the medical professionals testified he faked anything to get drugs.

Randy , Janet and Rebbie Jackson I bet none of them heard about MJ suffering from keloids .
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According to them Michael didn't have insomnia, not even a sleeping disorder and he loved to tour because ''that's what we love..performing''.
 
ivy said:
I don't think AEG's strategy is to make him unsympathetic, their strategy is to make him responsible for his actions.

for example think about this : yes michael had serious insomnia that made him impossible to sleep. and that makes him extremely sympathetic - not an addict seeking a high but having a problem seeking help.
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And this example is to show that aeg isn't making mj unsympathetic? The reason they're not portraying mj as a high seeking addict is because mj clearly wasn't, there are simply no witnesses or testimony aeg can get to show that he was some junkie looking for highs. Mj's issues were prescription drugs for pain and for insomnia, not with illegal hard core stuff at wild parties. AEg might not be able to alter the facts of mj's drug use as shown in doctors and other witness's testimony, but they have total control over how they presented this case in their opening statements. In that, mj's drug issues were portrayed as 'dark' and 'ugly', how he fooled everyone with his 'deepest darkest secret', how he resisted all attempts to get help. That's the very definition of unsympathetic.

ivy said:
not quite. their stance have always been "we did not know Propofol", they never denied the knowledge of pain addiction. they couldn't Michael publicly announced it in 1993.
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Randy phillips denied knowing about mj's 1993 drug issues. Although i imagine even if mj held press confs everytime he overdid the demoral and had a 'mj goes to rehab' primetime reality show, randy wd still act clueless.
 
twinklEE said:
As far as I'm concerned I hope the Jackson's dont't get a single dime out of this lawsuit. Hopefully they will- along with all the other leeches, hanger on's, backstabber's, crooks, assholes- get what they deserve once they die.
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I hope they don't get anything either, but I do hope the jury will be allowed to evaluate damages for the kids and Katherine separately, and that the kids do get something , because AEG & Phillips deserve to pay something.

In the initial verdict forms , they had a line for Katherine's potential responsability in Michael's death, it looked like they were going to go after her, but they seem to have dropped this line of arguments.

Soundmind said:
" he did not tell anyone , propofol was his darkest secret .....etc " Rowe was his WIFE , she knew . The nanny knew , his doctor in LA knew , he was the one who organized everything . Puntnm can't be happy with her testimony .




The jurors got to see the pictures of keloids , no wonder AEG's lawyers objected . God forbid the jurors think he was taking meds for legitimate reasons , he was FAKING his pain to get drugs , that what AEG claimed they would prove , so far none of the medical professionals testified he faked anything to get drugs.

Randy , Janet and Rebbie Jackson I bet none of them heard about MJ suffering from keloids .
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So far they have been trying to outdo the Jacksons as it relates to exposing every detail about Michael's health, and the result is that they are explaining the situation.

So I agree, they can't be happy. They can't seem to be getting the testimonies they want, and they are way out of line compared to what the Jacksons lawyers were saying.

The situation is weird, at least so far :

-The Jacksons have been showing things that AEG did that were very wrong IMO, with Michael and Murray

-The Jacksons seem divided and to not have a clue about Michael's health.Katherine &Randy Jackson's testimonies appear at the very least completely clueless and out of line after what Debbie and other doctors said. They sound completely riduculous, actually.

-AEG can't seem to disprove the claim against them- the negligent hiring and supervising claim, but they probably did a good job reducing the damages.

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Edit : Debbie mentionned Michael's schedule- she sounded angry with AEG, yet she says she has not discussed the case with the kids. I wonder where she got that info - about his schedule.
 
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It sounds like what Debbie Rowe is testifying about is when Michael Jackson was taking demerol for physical pain, for both dermatological procedures and plastic surgery procedures, which also included Michael Jackson using propofol. Since Michael Jackson was already experienced in the use of propofol, in being knocked out for surgery, dermatological or plastic surgery, Michael Jackson did not see a problem with its usage in being knocked out for sleep issues.

On the one hand, Debbie Rowe exonerates Dr. Allen Metzger and on the other, Debbie Rowe contradicts Dr. Allen Metzger's testimony about not knowing about sleep medication coming from an IV drip.

Judge Pastor excluded Dr. Arnold Klein from testifying during Conrad Murray's trial because there was no demerol in Michael Jackson's system at time of death. Debbie Rowe is implicating Dr. Arnold Klein, her former employer, in this trial.

Looking at the final bill to the Michael Jackson Estate, demerol was used in Michael Jackson's dermatological procedures because of his adverse to medical pain, including Michael Jackson did not like needles, therefore a special needle was used, along with the demerol.

Michael Jackson sure had a lot of injuries due to his profession, dancer. From the testimony we have seen so far, Michael Jackson would wean himself off of pain medication, when he felt he had too much, due to injuries he suffered from his profession. Debbie Rowe was there at times trying to oversee things, especially when it came to Dr. Steven Hoefflin and Dr. Arnold Klein, back in the 1980's and the 1990's. The Jackson family movie explained why Michael Jackson began changing his appearance, because of the fans thought he looked like yuk.


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bouee said:
I hope they don't get anything either, but I do hope the jury will be allowed to evaluate damages for the kids and Katherine separately, and that the kids do get something , because AEG & Phillips deserve to pay something.
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If that happens the Jackson's will end up with $$$. AEG & Phillips deserve to be found liable but Katherine shouldn't be awarded a single dime, because whatever she or the children get, goes straight into the pockets of the ever viscous and greedy cubs o hers.
 
Bubs, Last Tear, Michael was told as long as he was monitored under propofol, he would be safe. He was not told to check for equipment before going under. When anyone of us go for surgery, do we ask specifically what each piece of equipment is, what it will be used for, and IF it will be used or do we trust the doctor to do no harm?

I would like to ask those in this thread: did anyone ever ask themselves what time period Randy was referring to when he said Michael enjoyed touring and slept well or did you assume it was Michael's solo years he was referring to?
 
gerryevans;3888323 said:
I hope this response comes off the right way, but I don’t see why Ivy has to explain any more than she does. If she doesn’t present one side as much as a member likes, then why can’t the member do so.
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thanks. As I said I'm more than happy to explain anything I can. If there are any questions, people can ask. My experience has been that some people ask repeatedly about AEG's defense such as "what is the purpose of this", "why is this relevant", "this doesn't make sense" and so on. Therefore I keep explaining their logic and their arguments. I haven't seen similar questions for Jacksons claims. To the contrary people have been writing stuff like "it makes sense", "wonderfully presented" and so on. So it seem there's no questions or issues in regards to Jacksons arguments but AEG's defense is elusive to some.


also

here's my post that mentions "totality of the circumstances" - http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...-AEG/page263?p=3856748&viewfull=1#post3856748

jury instructions - http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...-AEG/page185?p=3844102&viewfull=1#post3844102

peculiar risk doctorine - explaining Jacksons argument : http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...-AEG/page311?p=3870902&viewfull=1#post3870902
 
Steven Randall was convicted of beating his then wife and their baby, he went to jail and psychiatric ward for it.
Jermaine Jackson was accused by nearly every woman he has had children with of being violent/aggressive toward them. At least 1 other brother was accused of domestic violence but I don't remember which one.
With everything said and done their actions in the past and present, along with their overall behavior speak louder than a million words. If it hadn't been for Michael getting them out of the ghetto, some of these ''cubs'' would have been in jail and/or doing more criminal/shady stuff. They should have been kissing the ground Michael walked on, but they chose to resent and hate him out of jealousy and greed. It wasn't Michael's fault they were inferior to him when it came to talent, charisma, aura and presence. It wasn't Michael's fault that he was hardworking and ambitious and they weren't or not to the extent. Michael despite of everything he had achieved, believed in hard work; in putting your soul into something in order to achieve success, to get somewhere. The brothers however just wanted fame, money, success, love, respect, handed over to them just because they were related to Michael, delusions of grandeur.
 
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Debbie explained a lot... I didn't even know about the keloids but I was aware of the discoid lupus, vitiligo and other things. Poor MJ... I am glad she did explain a lot because the jury now has a clear picture that MJ was not some drug seeking addict wanting meds for the hell of it. He was in legitimate pain and needed some help.. His own family seem like they have absolutely no clue about any of it.. I guess Katherine was cool with 'closing her ears' and then begging for jewelry and 600,000 motor homes instead of worrying about her son and his medical issues. I wonder how she feels listening to Debbie in court?
 
Tygger said:
Bubs, Last Tear, Michael was told as long as he was monitored under propofol, he would be safe. He was not told to check for equipment before going under. When anyone of us go for surgery, do we ask specifically what each piece of equipment is, what it will be used for, and IF it will be used or do we trust the doctor to do no harm?

I would like to ask those in this thread: did anyone ever ask themselves what time period Randy was referring to when he said Michael enjoyed touring and slept well or did you assume it was Michael's solo years he was referring to?
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well, according to Katherine MJ suffered from insomnia since he was a kid . SO?
 
Does anyone know why it was allowed Debbie to talk about the parenting of Prince and Paris? I thought it was not allowed. A few weeks ago when Taj was asked if Debbie is in contact with the childreen the Jackson's made a objection and I think the jury was instructed by the Judge that the relationship from Debbie to the children (if she has one) is not an issue in the process. Sometimes I do not understand the handling of the rules.
 
Soundmind said:
well, according to Katherine MJ suffered from insomnia since he was a kid . SO?
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Exactly, eve without her saying that Michael's issues with sleep or lack of sleep during tours are well documented and go as far back as the 70s, the time frame when they included Randy to play the bongos so he doesn't feel left out and useless.
 
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Soundmind, TwinklEE, I specifically referred to Randy’s video testimony. What time period is he referring to?
 
Rowe: He'd still ask 'how did I do, did I do ok?' Really dude, you didn't hear 55,000 people screaming? I think you did ok.
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ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 56m

Rowe: The show was amazing, the dancers wee amazing, Michael was so physical when he'd do his performance.
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LOL


Soundmind, TwinklEE, I specifically referred to Randy’s video testimony. What time period is he referring to?
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Whatever time period he meant it was a lie because MJ himself said he HATED touring , and pretty much everyone testified to MJ's inability to sleep . Why would I believe a defrauder ?
 
marebear;3887993 said:
I think this whole trial is too much information. Michael's privacy and things you know he would want kept private is all over the place for what? Justice? I don't think so. Other stars and celebrities should be thanking their lucky stars that their business isn't all out there. I am sorry for the rant but everyday I read what is going on in the trial and I feel uncomfortable and this awful feeling in my stomach. It's okay for Michael's life to be dissected when you know his whole family have their own skeletons and issues and that is all protected. AEG are no saints either and their personal business isn't all out there either. Everyday I wish Michael was still here but for this I am glad he isn't here to see this.
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Your rant is my rant. It is SO unfair that the only ones who will benefit from KJ winning (Michael’s siblings and the siblings children) don’t even have to show their face in court and certainly not have their most private secrets revealed. If KJ wins, all of her portion will go into her estate to leave to her 8 living children and their children yet none of them are suffering because of this lawsuit. This will not benefit Michael nor his children. What will the extra money buy them? Happiness? A loving family?

KJ will not need to ever spend any of the money she receives if she wins because she lives off of the money Michael left for her. If he wanted his 8 siblings to get money from him he would have included them in his trust. Who doesn’t understand that?
 
Soundmind said:
LOL




Whatever time period he meant it was a lie because MJ himself said he HATED touring , and pretty much everyone testified to MJ's inability to sleep . Why would I believe a defrauder ?
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"He helped whoever he could" Rowe said. Rowe: In concerts, those girls will kill you to get near the stage -- fans laughed in overflow room
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ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 48m

Rowe: He said you should incorporate horses with your love of animals. He paid for me to go back to school.
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and people wonder why we love him
 
Annita said:
Does anyone know why it was allowed Debbie to talk about the parenting of Prince and Paris? I thought it was not allowed. A few weeks ago when Taj was asked if Debbie is in contact with the childreen the Jackson's made a objection and I think the jury was instructed by the Judge that the relationship from Debbie to the children (if she has one) is not an issue in the process. Sometimes I do not understand the handling of the rules.
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I had wondered the same thing.
 
AP

In addition to testimony, one development this morning was that the plaintiff's rested their case. Attorney Brian Panish didn't want to but Judge Yvette Palazuelos told him she would tell the jury the plaintiff's case was done if he didn't. The judge said it didn't foreclose Panish from calling additional witnesses during his rebuttal case. Plaintiff's resting will allow for argument on an AEG motion to dismiss the case at some point. No word on when those arguments will happen


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I have never seen a lawyer not wanting to rest their case...
 
He's been abusing the law since day one . Still I feel sorry for him having to get instructions from someone like Randy Jackson .
 
Dr. Green said Dr. Murray disregarded the Hippocratic oath, standard of care and probably violated prescribing rules.Expand
ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 19m
"Physicians are under the obligation, regarding any interest, to put their patients first," Dr. Green expressed.
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ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 20m
Dr. Green: Physician's duty to the patient is paramount, and that's the number one priority and what doctors should always be concerned.
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Good to hear this finally.

I think that so far Green has been a very compelling witness, will wait to see how the cross goes.
 
LastTear said:
The difference being between a hotel room set up like a surgery, with a team to monitor him versus Murray on his own and no equipment. If Michael was familiar with this treatment then he would have realised the difference, but he obviously chose to trust him.
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I also think in addition to trusting a doctor with his life, literally, Michael grew to have a high comfort level with propofol. He may never had a close call or bad reaction when taking it before, so he likely underestimated what monitoring was required to safely administer it. Again, he put all his faith in a medical doctor, based on experience--and who among us wouldn't have done the same thing?
 
Bubs said:
I agree with you. Debbie testified that MJ slept 8 hours under German anesthetists, and those German's explained that they always have 2 when someone is under more than 4 hours. I assume MJ was there when those anesthetists explained this to him, so why in earth he though it was safe to be under when CM was just alone?

and especially after this:
Rowe said the doctors had physicians desk reference book with them. They told Michael there was risk, including death.
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Bubs this is what i think: When you are desperate for some relief of pain or sleep you will go that extra mile, even though there are risks. Michael like all of us, take medication that have risks, so if he took it before and lived & got relief, he will begin to put the possibility that the drug can be harmful to the back of his mind. There is so much medication that can lead to death & we don't really die if we are monitored, so he took that risk due to desperation. I know that if I had chronic insomnia & I was in a situation where if I did not sleep I could not earn a living, I would do anything possible to get that sleep. I feel there are billions of people out there who in desperation go that extra mile, but we simply do not hear about it.
 
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