Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[ivy]

Given that we are 76 days into this trial, I get highly surprised whether it's media or fans who ask the relevancy of an argument. Regardless of whether you agree or not , I kinda expect everyone to understand the main claims in this lawsuit.

Of course Jackson's aren't denying Michael's issues with drugs because their main argument is AEG known and should have known. The only way AEG could have known Murray in debt could be drug supplier is if they knew Michael had issues with drugs. If Jacksons argued Michael had no problems with drugs then we wouldn't have this case to start with. Jacksons positioned themselves in the middle of the road type of position which can be summarized as Michael's issues with drugs was common knowledge and should be something to keep everyone alert about a relapse but it wasn't as bad as to cause any reduction in life expectancy.

AEG on the other hand taking the drug issues and adding to that to use it to their advantage. For example life expectancy. I posted partial depositions of 3 experts and they all agree that drug addicts tend to early deaths due to accidental overdose. low life expectancy = less income possibility = less damages. Addiction discussion is also relevant to responsibility argument. If AEG can convince the jury that Michael was addict and this accidental overdose was waiting to happen, the jury might not think AEG is responsible and put the responsibility on Michael. less responsibility put on AEG = less damages. Finally comes the secretive part to counter the known or should have known part.

So as I said you might not agree with it but why they are mentioning it is kinda obvious to me.


Also a note: we still have some money in our transcript fund but I have been holding back. I personally definitely want to get the closing statements and I'm holding on to see if there will be testimony that we would not want to miss. Up to now either the testimony hasn't been that interesting or the media did a decent job in reporting. I'm still waiting to see if anything we don't want to miss come up.

 

[Soundmind]

Actually I am bored. In the beginning AEG was moving swiftly and I was paying attention. They were scoring some good points for their claims even though some of the experts were too extreme. Now with another addiction expert on the stand AGAIN, I am now Super bored. I mean I have heard that testimony so many times by different people, that I could say it in my sleep. Yes I know they want to show reduced life expectancy & therefore damages, but they already had someone or was it 2 who already talked about how Michael would die soon. This is over kill to me. I think the jury GOT it. I want to see some new evidence soon, because if I am bored, then the jury has to be too. Maybe that was one of the reasons that jury got sick.

By the way, this last expert today who talked about Michael having a stash of medicine for when he could not get it from the doctors, what documents he say that told him that, and who was supposed to inject Michael with the demerol?

That's how he knew MJ was addicted from 1993 till 2009

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 16m
MJ showed evidence of physical and social consequences - he passed out at a meeting and his brother Randy tried many times to intervene.
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ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 18m
MJ tried to cut down on his drug use but relapses. In 1993 goes to rehab in England - evidence of demerol use in 2003 and in 2009
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There is evidence of demerol use in 2003 and 2009 plus Randy's so called attempts , you get he was an addict for 16 years non stop . Go figure

 

[Soundmind]

the jurors have heard about doctors competing to control their patient ,doctors putting him under for hours for no reason , doctors arranging for him to be given propofol , doctors contrary to what they claimed told him it was safe to use propofol as sleep aid and medical experts who are so willing to sell their credentials to one party or the other for $$$ , the jurors will think a lot before they trust a doctor again .

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 6m
At least a couple jurors were still walking out, and plaintiff's lawyer Brian Panish complained about Strong trying to comfort Lee.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 6m
Strong had been sitting in the audience, and she brought up two of Lee's relatives who had accompanied her to court.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 7m
"It is so unfair," Lee said. "I'm so tired."
At this point, AEG Live defense attorney Sabrina Strong went up to witness box.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 7m
Lee continued to talk and cry as the jury shuffled out of the room.
"I can’t do this anymore. I really can’t do this anymore," she said.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 8m
She said testifying was "so stressful for me because of what I have gone through."
Cahan suggested they recess and the judge agreed.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 9m
Her mother died, Lee said "because she believed her doctor."
She started bawling, at one point putting her head in her hands.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 9m
... about all the medications that she'd been prescribed. Lee said she told her mom that she couldn't take all those medication.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 10m
Lee started to break down, saying it was a difficult subject because her mother had died in 2010 and she'd tried to warn her (cont) ...
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 11m
Lee started talking about how all medications have side effects and how doctors tell patients that they'll be safe on certain medications.
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Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 11m
She said Jackson kept telling her that doctors had told him he'd be safe as long as he was monitored. Lee said he wouldn't say which docs.
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[gerryevans]

Given that we are 76 days into this trial, I get highly surprised whether it's media or fans who ask the relevancy of an argument. Regardless of whether you agree or not , I kinda expect everyone to understand the main claims in this lawsuit.
.

I personally see the relevancy of every argument, but I'm also seeing less argument on a very critical aspect of the case, which is the negligent hiring. The HR people have been on the stand for a minimal amount of time in comparison to all the addiction specialist, a sleep specialist, and specialist, specialists. I fully see what they are attempting to do on all sides, but for this suit to be on its 76th day, no case has been sufficiently made for either side as they've mired it all in a lot of extraneous and/or redundant information.

ETA: And I know AEG is just starting their defense, but their cross examinations weren't as concise as I had expected them to be with the plaintiffs witnesses. I've been really surprised by the lawyers on both sides in how they've presented their cases and their selves.

 

[ivy]

I personally see the relevancy of every argument, but I'm also seeing less argument on a very critical aspect of the case, which is the negligent hiring. The HR people have been on the stand for a minimal amount of time in comparison to all the addiction specialist, a sleep specialist, and specialist, specialists. I fully see what they are attempting to do on all sides, but for this suit to be on its 76th day, no case has been sufficiently made for either side as they've mired it all in a lot of extraneous and/or redundant information.

I personally think - and mentioned it before - whether Murray was hired by AEG and what they should have done as a background check can truly go either way. It's really 50-50 in my mind and you really cannot know how the jury will think. I mean there could be group of jurors who thinks no signed contract no agreement, but it's equally possible for them to think oral agreement is enough. Sure Michael wanted Murray but who hired him can go either way. Similarly whether they should have done more of a background check or not could go either way. Both sides had their opposing expert witnesses in that regard, neither one having an extremely stronger argument over the other, and it's toss up. Anything is possible.

I think that is also what makes Jacksons job hard as well. They need to establish negligent hiring first of all before it even comes to responsibility and damages. They had their arguments - and there have been counter arguments. Just as AEG , in my opinion Jacksons did not have a real strong argument in that regard as well.

So AEG has clearly focusing their efforts on other places.

I did post the jury instructions for negligent hiring and the "known or should have known" part has to be proven. So AEG is attacking that with "secretive drug use" as well as "Demerol versus Propofol". They are also focusing on responsibility and damages part.

You might remember sometime ago I asked what would people think if it the verdict is like AEG has hired Murray even negligently but they did not have any responsibility and/or zero or minimal damages. At least to me for some time that seems to be AEG's focus.

 

[jamba]

Maybe they are going with the testimony re earlier propofol/demerol requests b/c it is something concrete and verifiable. Drs. and nurses can testify this happened on this date. But other issues are harder to pin down--for example, the pressure AEG put on CM or MJ, how ill/thin was MJ, who noticed what, when, where--and meetings with multiple participants. Some of the testimony on these issues is full of potholes. I doubt a big bucks award to plaintiffs due to the lack of clarity on these other issues. For example, what Prince (grabbed his elbow) or Kai Chase (broken vase) saw is rather murky re who, what and when, so is a jury going to make a big award on that evidence or that kind of unclear evidence? I would say not. Even what Ortega said re the 19th--MJ was a mess when he arrived, says Ortega, but by the time he left he was not chilled and incoherent any more.

Speculation will not produce the big bucks IMO, only verifiable facts. So these drs who treated MJ are helping AEG (even though it does get repetitious for sure) by presenting verifiable facts that MJ was asking for and knowledgeable about propofol from the late 90's up to 2009 but that AEG did not know about it.

 

[Ashtanga]

More, more, more.... Poor Michael .... every piece of man's life is being dissected by the press. It will never stop. :no: I hope one day leave Michael alone. ray: This judgment seems to take forever to reach the end. :bugeyed errin:

 

[Tygger]

I just wish we had full transcripts. For example, this dr. now on the stand is not being covered in detail in the media (the media seems to have lost interest).

Agreed.

I feel the media coverage has slowly dwindled especially the ABC7 and McCartney tweets. The doctors testifying to the secretive addict theory is becoming more feeble with each testimony and is less newsworthy. Testimonies from Levounis, Quinn, and a very theatrical Lee were wasted efforts in my view.

I was extremely suspicious of the tweets from Tuesday as that was a full day in court. The discussions with the judge and the lawyers before Levounis took the stand were not discussed by ABC7 or McCartney. I will not state what has been suggested about the details of those conversation however, if it was indeed true, it is very suspicious that it was not considered newsworthy enough for neither ABC7 or McCartney to tweet the details.

 

[gerryevans]

I personally think - and mentioned it before - whether Murray was hired by AEG and what they should have done as a background check can truly go either way. It's really 50-50 in my mind and you really cannot know how the jury will think. I mean there could be group of jurors who thinks no signed contract no agreement, but it's equally possible for them to think oral agreement is enough. Sure Michael wanted Murray but who hired him can go either way. Similarly whether they should have done more of a background check or not could go either way. Both sides had their opposing expert witnesses in that regard, neither one having an extremely stronger argument over the other, and it's toss up. Anything is possible.

This is what surprises me, that AEG didn’t stack the deck with expert after expert to sway the jury so it wouldn’t be 50-50. That whatever leanings a juror might naturally have, they would present info to them to change their perspective. It just seems they have been lax in TRYING to present persuasive argument in this very critical area (as I don’t remember seeing a lot of these kind of specialists on their witness list)

I think that is also what makes Jacksons job hard as well. They need to establish negligent hiring first of all before it even comes to responsibility and damages. They had their arguments - and there have been counter arguments. Just as AEG , in my opinion Jacksons did not have a real strong argument in that regard as well.

Exactly, the fact that the Jacksons didn’t have a strong argument in this regard as well to me was missed opportunity for AEG to make a strong one for themselves. Maybe, there just aren’t as many HR experts or independent contract law experts out there to make the case either way.

So AEG has clearly focusing their efforts on other places.
I did post the jury instructions for negligent hiring and the "known or should have known" part has to be proven. So AEG is attacking that with "secretive drug use" as well as "Demerol versus Propofol". They are also focusing on responsibility and damages part.
You might remember sometime ago I asked what would people think if it the verdict is like AEG has hired Murray even negligently but they did not have any responsibility and/or zero or minimal damages. At least to me for some time that seems to be AEG's focus.

Understood and agree. But I do believe that more EFFORT could have been put in other places and that would perhaps have given them a better edge.

 

[Soundmind]

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 44m
On recross, Dr. Levounis was asked if MJ is an addict despite no drugs, no symptoms, no sign of use? Dr. say addict with no evidence..
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ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 47m
He said the term Addiction is widely used in the field.
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ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 47m
Dr. Levounis also said that a person can be addicted to opiates without having to take them every few hours. Still have withdrawl symptoms

These experts are pathetic to say the least

 

[jaydom7]

an addict with no evidence and no drugs or damage to the body? these experts are pathetic

 

[ivy]

Speculation will not produce the big bucks IMO, only verifiable facts. So these drs who treated MJ are helping AEG (even though it does get repetitious for sure) by presenting verifiable facts that MJ was asking for and knowledgeable about propofol from the late 90's up to 2009 but that AEG did not know about it.

well if they want to paint an addict picture they need to put doctor after doctor. one doctor here and there won't be enough to make a point.

This is what surprises me, that AEG didn’t stack the deck with expert after expert to sway the jury so it wouldn’t be 50-50. That whatever leanings a juror might naturally have, they would present info to them to change their perspective. It just seems they have been lax in TRYING to present persuasive argument in this very critical area (as I don’t remember seeing a lot of these kind of specialists on their witness list) But I do believe that more EFFORT could have been put in other places and that would perhaps have given them a better edge.

perhaps there isn't much more to say. AEG had an expert that said credit checks are done in limited instances (jobs handling money), and it's even more rare to be done for independent contractors. Jacksons had an expert saying that Murray's high risk position required a full background check. So what else can they say? I think HR is a specialty that doesn't have written rules but has some common practices and even those could differ.

AEG might also be banking on some sort of common experience. for example for the people in US, have any of your employers ran a credit check on you? did you ever ran a background or credit check on any of your doctors? and it was discussed before, majority of the Americans have some sort of debt, most Americans experienced hardship during last economic crisis, I personally don't think the average person would agree with person with debt are unsuitable for employment logic.

 

[jamba]

I agree that nurse Lee is "theatrical"--she has broken down every time she has testified. Others have cried on the stand who were much closer to MJ than she was but have been able to keep going. I just wonder about her mental stability and why she gets so upset that she has to stop her testimony. After all, she went on a gazillion talk shows after MJ died and did not get upset (CNN, Larry King, Gretta, etc). She seems to hold herself in some way responsible maybe ? I am just trying to understand her level of upsetness. Also--how did MJ get in touch with her in the first place (OK, she was another one who came to help the kids and then MJ asked her to help him like CM). And if he was going to work on his sleep issues, why would he turn to a nurse (no offense) but they have less training than a dr/specialist.

 

[jamba]

I agree re negligent hiring issue that they have pretty much said what they can:

MJ wanted CM and would not be deterred and was personally involved in the hiring and the setting of the salary/contract

a check on CM's credentials/clinics was done by Jorrie with no red flags such as reprimands, suspensions

HR experts testified that a credit/background check was not usual for drs and that CM's job did not fall under the 'high risk" category

AEG testified they did not do credit/background checks on independent contractors

I agree, Ivy, that AEG needs to show as many drs as they can re past propofol/prescription meds request/use to make their case as strong as they can. It's in their best interest, even if it is boring etc for some or all of us.

 

[Bubs]

Ivy, do you have any information about this: Jackson's motion for leave to amend?
Judge was to decide that 29th?

 

[Vici]

Lee's handwritten notes from that day described their conversation: "I went as far as to say I understand you want a good night sleep -- want to be 'knocked out' -- but what if you don't wake up," she wrote. "He said 'I'll be ok. I only need someone to monitor me with equipment while I sleep.'"

“When I said it is only used by anesthesiologists (he said), ‘Why don’t you bring one, you can bring an anesthesiologist and you can come too… so I could be monitored.’ He wanted me to know that he was going to be safe,” she continued.

This is so sad to read. MJ thought he was being monitored and had all the equipments you need

"After his passing, a young lady walked up to me at an event and she just stared crying," Lee said. "She said, 'I wouldn't be here today if Michael hadn't come to the hospital and paid for my brain surgeries and he didn't want anyone to know.'"

Although called as a witness by AEG Live, Lee attacked their lawyers' contention that Jackson was "doctor shopping" for drugs. "All he was doing was looking for the best doctor to help with his insomnia," Lee said. "It just breaks my heart for people to label someone as doctor shopping when they're only trying to find the best doctor to give them the best care."

 

[ivy]

Ivy, do you have any information about this: Jackson's motion for leave to amend?
Judge was to decide that 29th?

looks like judge made her order "08/29/2013 Order ( tent. adopted as final order ) Filed by Judge"

however the document isn't available yet, as I mentioned before it takes some time for them to scan it. They haven't updated the document system in a week (I've been waiting for deposition transcripts lodged as well) and there's a holiday coming up. So unless media reports what happened, it will probably take some time before they will be on the online system.

 

[Bubs]

looks like judge made her order "08/29/2013 Order ( tent. adopted as final order ) Filed by Judge"

however the document isn't available yet, as I mentioned before it takes some time for them to scan it. They haven't updated the document system in a week (I've been waiting for deposition transcripts lodged as well) and there's a holiday coming up. So unless media reports what happened, it will probably take some time before they will be on the online system.

Thanks Ivy. Nothing about it in the news, and Randy didn't tweet anything so I quess judge threw it out


Few more doctors to testify, then it is over from doctors (I hope). I'm quite frankly had heard enough of them, it starting to be mind numbing to listen then day in day out.

 

[jamba]

Does anyone know what was going on March 24th and April 18th specifically b/c Lee said there were lots of cars when she went to Carolwood on the 24th and on the 18th she said MJ was stressed and didn't seem himself. Just wondering if anyone knows re these 2 dates what was going on?

 

[Tygger]

Alan Duke did a very kind article commemorating Michael’s birthday using Katherine’s trial testimony.

The defense has time to reassess their defense. Levounis, Quinn, and Lee’s testimonies were abject failures for the defense. Lee was the most damaging to the defense on cross and assisted the plaintiffs without much effort.

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
Dr. Lee said if she were treating him she would be beyond concerned.
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
She was shown a picture of MJ days before he died where he looked very thin. She asked if they were sure it was him?

From Duke's trial coverage article:

Although called as a witness by AEG Live, Lee attacked their lawyers' contention that Jackson was "doctor shopping" for drugs. "All he was doing was looking for the best doctor to help with his insomnia," Lee said. "It just breaks my heart for people to label someone as doctor shopping when they're only trying to find the best doctor to give them the best care."

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
After MJ died, she heard so many terrible things about MJ drug use so she came forward.
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
And he hadn't had a good night's sleep. Dr. Lee gathered her things, MJ hugged her and she left. She never saw him again.
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
She told MJ that any Doctor that would do that would only do it for money. On April 19th he said it would not be a good day - long rehearsal
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
He did not tell Dr. Lee who gave it to him. He asked her to find someone who would give to him at the house. She said no
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
MJ said he was stressed because of rehearsal and had to get a full night sleep. He wanted Diprivan (propofol). Said he took it before.
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
She made a note in her medical records that March 24 was a very stressful day for MJ. She got to the house and there were many cars
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
MJ went to London for a press conference about his tour and when he came back he changed. He wasnt' as jovial.
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
She never saw evidence of another Doctor treating MJ. She never saw Dr. Murray.
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
She said from the time she started treating him January 28 to her last visit at the house early April 19 she never saw any medical equipment
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
MJ decided he would like her to treat him. She said MJ really wanted to be healthy. He followed her holistic plan and felt better.
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
She told the jury how impressed she was the close relationship she had with the children. She said you could feel the love in the house
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
Under cross examination, Dr. Lee said she first met MJ on January 28, 2009 when she went to the house to see the children who had colds.

Jamba, I still find Lee to be theatrical however, I was unaware her mother passed so closely to Michael. I believe she is trying to handle quite a bit of grief mix with guilt she does not have to shoulder. She may feel responsible for Michael and her mother's passing because she warned both. However, she is not responsible for either passing.

 

[Tygger]

Brian Joseph Panish @panish31: Happy Birthday Michael Jackson. Everyone misses you MJ. You accomplished so much working to make the earth a better place!!

 

[Mneme]

Does anyone know what was going on March 24th and April 18th specifically b/c Lee said there were lots of cars when she went to Carolwood on the 24th and on the 18th she said MJ was stressed and didn't seem himself. Just wondering if anyone knows re these 2 dates what was going on?

Jamba:

MAYBE (!), both dates have something to do with this so-called hiring from Leonard Rowe.
This piece of rough paper what he has copied in his book has the date 03.25., 2009.
In his book Rowe writes he got a first call from Michael at 03.21., 2009; Michael said he would need the Rowe.
With date 03.25., 2009 Michael wrote allegedly in a letter to Randy Phillips that Rowe from this day on was his authorized representant and financial advisor.
And with date 03.26., 2009 was faxed out a release via Champion Management Agency saying that Rowe would be representing Michael.
I don't have Rowe's book. Are there any user who has this book and read about?

or

MAYBE (!), it could be something in connection with the Julien Darren auction?


The same is with April 18th..again: Rowe
In his book he writes at 04.15, he and Joe Jackson were at Carolwood and Michael undersigned this piece of paper (with the date from 03.25.) That is the visit how was Frank DiLeo speaking about that Michael was saying that his father has compeled him.


I don't know wheter you can understand my chaotic sentences and wheter they are a help for you.

 

[marebear]

I just want to say that I like how no matter what is being talked about that people still mention what a great relationship Michael had with his kids. It just shows that to Michael his kids were top priority.

 

[Bubs]

Jamba:

MAYBE (!), both dates have something to do with this so-called hiring from Leonard Rowe.
This piece of rough paper what he has copied in his book has the date 03.25., 2009.
In his book Rowe writes he got a first call from Michael at 03.21., 2009; Michael said he would need the Rowe.
With date 03.25., 2009 Michael wrote allegedly in a letter to Randy Phillips that Rowe from this day on was his authorized representant and financial advisor.
And with date 03.26., 2009 was faxed out a release via Champion Management Agency saying that Rowe would be representing Michael.
I don't have Rowe's book. Are there any user who has this book and read about?

or

MAYBE (!), it could be something in connection with the Julien Darren auction?


The same is with April 18th..again: Rowe
In his book he writes at 04.15, he and Joe Jackson were at Carolwood and Michael undersigned this piece of paper (with the date from 03.25.) That is the visit how was Frank DiLeo speaking about that Michael was saying that his father has compeled him.


I don't know wheter you can understand my chaotic sentences and wheter they are a help for you.

Jetzi has Rowe's book http://jetzi-mjvideo.com/books-jetzi-04/10wrh/10wrh119.html

 

[LastTear]

@Tygger I always find it interesting when two people read the same words but have a slightly different impression of them. I agree that the plantiffs did score some points though. IMO the defence did put across to the jury the point that Michael appeared to be doctor shopping, he already had Murray by the 18th April but was still asking CL to find him a doctor.

Also she testified that Michael knew the risks but still went ahead.



I know that you (Tygger) are keen to discuss points on the plantiffs side, could you pin point and give your opinion in how some of the testimony helped the plantiffs and we can discuss it from there.

 

[ivy]

I had been really busy with work therefore late with testimony summaries. I'm hoping to catch us up over the weekend.

unfortunately no documents were added to the court system (they are now more than a week behind) and monday is a holiday in USA. So unless media reports judge's decision , we won't know about it until sometime next week.

 

[Soundmind]

@Tygger I always find it interesting when two people read the same words but have a slightly different impression of them. I agree that the plantiffs did score some points though. IMO the defence did put across to the jury the point that Michael appeared to be doctor shopping, he already had Murray by the 18th April but was still asking CL to find him a doctor.

Also she testified that Michael knew the risks but still went ahead.



I know that you (Tygger) are keen to discuss points on the plantiffs side, could you pin point and give your opinion in how some of the testimony helped the plantiffs and we can discuss it from there.

The jury also heard from Adams that MJ was looking for an anesthesiologist to work WITH Murray , they also heard Lee say he asked her for an anesthesiologist

 

[AliCat]

The medical records of Murray's treatment of Jackson between 2006 and 2008 -- when the singer lived in Las Vegas -- showed no painkillers prescribed during seven visits. Murray's notes did show he treated Jackson's complaints of insomnia with a sedative in 2008.

Under cross examination Wednesday morning, Levounis conceded that he never saw evidence that Jackson injected himself with narcotics, ever sought or used illegal drugs such as cocaine, meth or heroin, or abused drugs to produce euphoria or get high. There was also no evidence Jackson used more painkillers than doctors prescribed, he said.

Opioids played no role in Jackson's death, according to the Los Angeles County coroner.

Jackson's drugs of choice were opioids -- painkillers given to him by doctors repairing scalp injuries suffered in a fire and during cosmetic procedures to make him look younger, Levounis testified.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/29/showb...paign=Feed:+rss/cnn_latest+(RSS:+Most+Recent)

I can see why us fan's are becoming bored. There are no new revelations in the claim that Michael was doctor shopping or needed drug's outside of dental work, cosmetic surgery or from the burn on his scalp from 1984. The fact that even Dr. Arnold Klein was excluded as a witness during Conrad Murray's trial shows this to be true. It is a fact that Michael enjoyed sleeping while sedated under propofol, especially when he was under a lot of stress, which he was during rehearsals of "This Is It."

Kenny Ortega made a valid point about blood work being done just before Michael died, in reference to getting to the bottom of what was wrong with Michael. Perhaps this may have saved Michael's life, but it is a maybe. Conrad Murray hid his secretive life, if you ask me. I think only a private investigator what have found out about Conrad Murray's charm with the ladies, which contributed to his lack of paying his bills. Even if a credit report had been pulled up on Conrad Murray, would this have proved anything out of the ordinary? Conrad Murray was licensed. Conrad Murray had no red flags as a practicing medical doctor. I think the Jury will come to the same conclusion, after all we are just like a jury of our peers!

Dr. Petros Levounis MD and MA is a male Psychiatrist, has 15 years of experience and practices in Psychiatry and Addiction Psychiatry.

 

[LastTear]

The jury also heard from Adams that MJ was looking for an anesthesiologist to work WITH Murray , they also heard Lee say he asked her for an anesthesiologist

Yes and that's up to Panish to highlight this to the jury, maybe he already has its hard to tell by the tweets sometimes.

It does show that it was Michael himself looking for a certain treatment from a doctor and not AEG.

 

[jamba]

Jamba:

MAYBE (!), both dates have something to do with this so-called hiring from Leonard Rowe.
This piece of rough paper what he has copied in his book has the date 03.25., 2009.
In his book Rowe writes he got a first call from Michael at 03.21., 2009; Michael said he would need the Rowe.
With date 03.25., 2009 Michael wrote allegedly in a letter to Randy Phillips that Rowe from this day on was his authorized representant and financial advisor.
And with date 03.26., 2009 was faxed out a release via Champion Management Agency saying that Rowe would be representing Michael.
I don't have Rowe's book. Are there any user who has this book and read about?

or

MAYBE (!), it could be something in connection with the Julien Darren auction?


The same is with April 18th..again: Rowe
In his book he writes at 04.15, he and Joe Jackson were at Carolwood and Michael undersigned this piece of paper (with the date from 03.25.) That is the visit how was Frank DiLeo speaking about that Michael was saying that his father has compeled him.


I don't know wheter you can understand my chaotic sentences and wheter they are a help for you.

Yes, this is very helpful and I will go and check Rowe's book (thanks, Bubs, for the link--I think I read it there before but did not take notes).

Basically, for these crucial time periods, IMO we need (meaning anyone who really wants to understand what was going on) an accurate timeline, as detailed as possible, on the day to day events and the actions of MJ and people around him.

I have tried to get one together (just for myself) for the 93-94 events, and for the 2002-05 events, but one is really needed for 06-09 IMO, esp all of 09. The problem is there was always a lot going on in MJ's life and in the surrounding events that impacted him, so it gets rather complicated (!). The whole LR/AllGood/family pressure for reunion concert (s) merged with the comeback tour/financial pressure. So its the whole picture that needs mapping in an accurate timeline. One day . . . .