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Question re: IV Pump and screenshots of supplies ordered?

lemon662

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I believe it was from the medical supply company "Sea Coast" (??) that Murray ordered the bulk of medical supplies (IV tubing, IV solution, alcohol prep pads, etc etc). Does anyone know where a person can VIEW screenshots of these invoices that were presented in court?

I recall that on one invoice shown in court, it showed that Murray had ordered an "IV Pump." Did the defense or prosecution ever ask whether this ordered IV Pump had been delivered?

I have a hard time understanding WHY Murray wouldn't have used an IV Pump; it would have made his job so much easier.

I don't recall seeing (maybe I missed it or have forgotten?) in the invoices of things Murray ordered, special IV Pump administration sets....does anyone remember seeing these? If not BUT he did order an IV Pump, perhaps he was stupid enough to originally just assume that he could use basic IV tubing/admin sets with a pump (which of course you cannot; you can only use special tubing that's designed for the particular IV Pump used) and then realized he couldn't use basic tubing and then just didn't bother to use a pump (instead of then just ordering the proper tubing for the pump).
 
Popescu said:
Do you remember the day? I don't think he did order one. Anyways, I hope this is the list you're searching for, it's the 4th photo:
http://www.myfoxla.com/gallery/jackson_dr_trial/conrad-murray-trial-photos-20111005

As I suspected, there is a nurse who backs up my theory on the venting, see the link at the end of the article.
http://muzikfactorytwo.blogspot.com/2011/09/conrad-murray-murder-weapon.html
Click to expand...

It was on Oct 5 of the trial. I found that thread for that date. The info about the supplies that Murray ordered from Sea Coast was provided by Sally Hirschburg who testified. Elusive Moonwalker was making notes on that date, in that thread, about what Sally was stating in her testimony and in response #46, Elusive documented that Sally had stated that an IV Infusion Pump had been shipped to Murray on Apr 24th. So wonder where this pump ever went?

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...ctober-Day-7-Discussion/page2?highlight=sally
 
To me it looks like Murray ordered the Outlook Pump ADDitIV Primary Mini-Drop Administration Set with Backcheck Valve. (60 drops/mL) Universal spike, pressure limited check valve, injection sites, 335 cm., on December 16 2008. But, as we know CM, the credit card was declined and the item was not shipped. It was finally shipped April 24.
She refused to ship the items to a residential address (guy selling Propofol had no such ethical questions), and only agreed to send them at the office in Las Vegas.
http://www.bbraunusa.com/images/bbraun_usa/BBraunCatalog-OutlookPumpSets.pdf

On April 14 (date of shipment) , Murray also bought Excel I.V. Administration Set, this is a simple IV set that I think is used for diabetics. No vent, no nothing. 50/bag. He bought everything on his credit card - he used the simple ones because he did not have 400$ for the regular ones? This does not make much sense.
http://www.buyemp.com/product/1120315.html


Here are the pumps that come in 24/case:
http://www.bbraunusa.com/images/bbraun_usa/BBraunCatalog-OutlookPumpSets.pdf
http://www.bbraunusa.com/images/bbraun_usa/BBraunCatalog-SPACEPumpSets.pdf

and here's how I found them:
http://www.isips.org/Needlefree_IV_systems.php
 
Defense stated that first invoice is Jul 2007, witness confirmed same safe site pump was ordered that date, Oct 5, 2007 ordered another safe site pump set. June 24, 2008, safe site pump set. Does this correlate with the interview CM gave? What is their full story, I wonder...
 
Popescu said:
Do you remember the day? I don't think he did order one. Anyways, I hope this is the list you're searching for, it's the 4th photo:
http://www.myfoxla.com/gallery/jackson_dr_trial/conrad-murray-trial-photos-20111005

As I suspected, there is a nurse who backs up my theory on the venting, see the link at the end of the article.
http://muzikfactorytwo.blogspot.com/2011/09/conrad-murray-murder-weapon.html
Click to expand...

So do you think the Prosecution knows any of this?..........or really wonders WHY the bottle of Propofol was found inside the saline bag? I think this is such critical info, as it supports the fact that Murray was extremely negligent and unethical such that he was jerry-rigging up an IV line, for god's sake! And do you think the Jury has any clue about this? I'm betting not. I'm a nurse and I didn't even catch onto this until reading the other link you'd posted. I'd actually thought that bag of saline had the slit in it because he was trying quickly to empty the contents of the bag (and had just assumed the bottle of Propofol was inside because he had quickly stuffed it in there, for no real reason).
 
Popescu said:
To me it looks like Murray ordered the Outlook Pump ADDitIV Primary Mini-Drop Administration Set with Backcheck Valve. (60 drops/mL) Universal spike, pressure limited check valve, injection sites, 335 cm., on December 16 2008. But, as we know CM, the credit card was declined and the item was not shipped. It was finally shipped April 24.
She refused to ship the items to a residential address (guy selling Propofol had no such ethical questions), and only agreed to send them at the office in Las Vegas.
http://www.bbraunusa.com/images/bbraun_usa/BBraunCatalog-OutlookPumpSets.pdf

On April 14 (date of shipment) , Murray also bought Excel I.V. Administration Set, this is a simple IV set that I think is used for diabetics. No vent, no nothing. 50/bag. He bought everything on his credit card - he used the simple ones because he did not have 400$ for the regular ones? This does not make much sense.
http://www.buyemp.com/product/1120315.html


Here are the pumps that come in 24/case:
http://www.bbraunusa.com/images/bbraun_usa/BBraunCatalog-OutlookPumpSets.pdf
http://www.bbraunusa.com/images/bbraun_usa/BBraunCatalog-SPACEPumpSets.pdf

and here's how I found them:
http://www.isips.org/Needlefree_IV_systems.php
Click to expand...

Good work!

So it would appear that the infusion pump WAS shipped and he did receive it; so I wonder, then, why he never used it?.... though I guess he couldn't have if he had never ordered the proper pump sets. Like I said before, maybe he didn't realize initially that one had to use 'special' pump sets for an infusion pump and he just figured he could use the basic/simple tubing, then found out once pump received that that wasn't the case. I wouldn't be at all surprised for a doctor not to really know diddly about IVs and pump sets and such; it's generally a nurse who would be dealing with them totally.
 
lemon, what is a 'special' pump? Is there some part of the set that didn't work with the tubing he ordered? Isn't this why it is called 'a set'?
I'm asking you this because I'm really confused as to why he wouldn't use this more sophisticated looking tubing and decided to use a regular one. Also, can you think of a reason as to why he ordered the one with three different Y connectors?

(I'm looking at the .pdf and it could of been either the 15 drops/ml or the 60 drops/ml one, they are the same and very similar to what was presented in court.)
 
Popescu said:
lemon, what is a 'special' pump? Is there some part of the set that didn't work with the tubing he ordered? Isn't this why it is called 'a set'?
I'm asking you this because I'm really confused as to why he wouldn't use this more sophisticated looking tubing and decided to use a regular one. Also, can you think of a reason as to why he ordered the one with three different Y connectors?

(I'm looking at the .pdf and it could of been either the 15 drops/ml or the 60 drops/ml one, they are the same and very similar to what was presented in court.)
Click to expand...

Okay, now I'm really confused. None of the links you posted were for an IV infusion PUMP, only for "pump sets" (IV tubing sets to be used in an infusion pump). I misread and thought one of the links was for the actual pump. So none of the invoices showed that a pump was shipped?

Well if he was using an IV infusion pump, he would only use basic IV tubing. The special tubing (and by special I mean infusion pump tubing) would only be used if you're running it through an infusion pump. I'm not even sure if you COULD use it (IV pump set/tubing) if it's just running by gravity and not running through a pump? The only reason one would use the special pump set is because it's got a special censor on the tubing that fits inside an infusion pump...if you're not using a pump, it's really of no benefit (and perhaps even no use).

Not sure why he would have used tubing with 3 ports (aka Y-sites). I suspect it's for 2 reasons:

1. That tubing is very long, probably much longer than tubing that only has one y-site (or none!)....and this would give MJ more 'room to move' (longer length of tubing), particularly if IV inserted into foot.

2. 3 Y-sites seems like overkill, one should have been sufficient....just need one to piggy-back the Propofol drip into (he'd likely have had the main IV line as the one that was hooked up to the plain normal saline bag......then his homemade Propofol drip was connected to another IV line......and there was a needle on the end of that line that was plugged into the lowest y-site on the main line. That's my guess.

It was likely the 60 drops/ml line he was using (a mini-drip set). Easier to monitor the flow rate (how many 'drops per minute' is being infused) if giving only a small volume continuously if using a drip set that delivers more drops per ml......and should be used when it's critical to ensure the flow rate is very precise.
 
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Oh, ok. I googled it and it turns out that we were talking about apples and oranges.

No, there was no infusion pump ordered. I also thought that if one uses the special tubing he ordered, it would work without a pump (I'm not an English native speaker, so I have to google everything technical and this time I didn't).

An infusion pump isn't on any of the invoices. I also didn't know that the IV set wouldn't work without a pump, and there wasn't such a thing discovered in the house. This makes a much better motive of him using the regular tubing than money or anything else I could come up with.

Are you sure they don't work with gravity? I'll repost the specifications:


2mrzad3.jpg
 
This is prob a stupid question as medical stuff confuses me.give me a legal motion anyday. anway the coroner says homicide based on the postion of the iv in mjs leg and it been difficult to get to. was there an injection port on the leg? or are they just talking about the injection port thats
attached to the iv. the one where the needle was left in
 
elusive moonwalker said:
This is prob a stupid question as medical stuff confuses me.give me a legal motion anyday. anway the coroner says homicide based on the postion of the iv in mjs leg and it been difficult to get to. was there an injection port on the leg? or are they just talking about the injection port thats
attached to the iv. the one where the needle was left in
Click to expand...

I looked in the AR and it says that there was no injection port. They are saying that the only thing inserted was the IV catheter and the closest injection port is 13.5 cm from the tip. This is the reason why it would of been difficult to self administer anything, since the IV was in the leg, and I think it was below the knee.
 
Sorry i dont get u.there was no injection port in the attachment nxt to mjs leg?
 
Maybe lemon or someone with expertise in the field could tell us whether an IV catheter is different from an injection port. From the photos it seems that the IV catheter can be hooked only with the long tubing, whereas injection ports can be used to inject any substance with a syringe. But I can be mistaken since this is not my area either.

This is what CM ordered and probably used:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&....,cf.osb&fp=9899f11b977e9c37&biw=1288&bih=673
 
An IV catheter is what is actually injected into the vein to start a peripheral IV...The needle is under a flexible sheath and that needle is removed when the IV is in the vein, so that all that's left is the flexible sheath...

Here is an injection port that is accessed via blunt-tipped syringe...Needleless system....

You can see the green hub from the patient's hand...Attached to that is the flexible sheath in the patient's vein...

2i11tll.jpg
 
Good picture above. An injection port is synonymous with a y-site.........like in the picture, where the needle (on the end of the syringe) is injected into, that's the injection port aka y-site. I guess what they're saying is that if MJ's IV site (the little tube that's inserted into the actual vein) was down his leg (foot/ankle?), the injection port was 13.5cm distance from where the IV went into the vein and that would have been too far for him to reach and administer it himself..........but to play the devil's advocate (not that I think for a MOMENT that he self-injected/gave himself a bolus), all he'd have to do is sit up in bed and bend his knee which would bring his foot/ankle close to him and then he'd have easy access to that injection port.

I was sure, Popescu, that once of the invoices from Sea Coast DID show an IV Pump. Do you have any links to screenshots of those invoices? It's driving me nuts!

I suppose a person could use IV Pump Drip Sets if NOT using a pump.....but it seems kind of silly to me. In my career we'd have never run pump tubing outside of the pump (meaning, just letting it run by gravity) so I guess I don't know for sure. Just seems weird to order tubing that's labeled as "IV Pump Set" if you're not going to be using a pump. It would also be more expensive.
 
lemon662 said:
Good picture above. An injection port is synonymous with a y-site.........like in the picture, where the needle (on the end of the syringe) is injected into, that's the injection port aka y-site. I guess what they're saying is that if MJ's IV site (the little tube that's inserted into the actual vein) was down his leg (foot/ankle?), the injection port was 13.5cm distance from where the IV went into the vein and that would have been too far for him to reach and administer it himself..........but to play the devil's advocate (not that I think for a MOMENT that he self-injected/gave himself a bolus), all he'd have to do is sit up in bed and bend his knee which would bring his foot/ankle close to him and then he'd have easy access to that injection port.

I was sure, Popescu, that once of the invoices from Sea Coast DID show an IV Pump. Do you have any links to screenshots of those invoices? It's driving me nuts!

I suppose a person could use IV Pump Drip Sets if NOT using a pump.....but it seems kind of silly to me. In my career we'd have never run pump tubing outside of the pump (meaning, just letting it run by gravity) so I guess I don't know for sure. Just seems weird to order tubing that's labeled as "IV Pump Set" if you're not going to be using a pump. It would also be more expensive.
Click to expand...

I agree...We have gravity sets and IV pump sets...You can't use the plain gravity sets for the pumps, and the pump sets just don't work properly to try and run by gravity...It'd give an inaccurate dose....We never use gravity for anything...We can't even infuse potassum via gravity...Let alone something like propofol...I shudder...:(
 
lemon662 said:
I was sure, Popescu, that once of the invoices from Sea Coast DID show an IV Pump. Do you have any links to screenshots of those invoices? It's driving me nuts!
Click to expand...

I watched the video that I posted on the previous page thoroughly (there's also a Part 2) and never saw it. It contains the full testimony. I'll re-watch them tomorrow.
 
lemon662 said:
I believe it was from the medical supply company "Sea Coast" (??) that Murray ordered the bulk of medical supplies (IV tubing, IV solution, alcohol prep pads, etc etc). Does anyone know where a person can VIEW screenshots of these invoices that were presented in court?

I recall that on one invoice shown in court, it showed that Murray had ordered an "IV Pump." Did the defense or prosecution ever ask whether this ordered IV Pump had been delivered?

I have a hard time understanding WHY Murray wouldn't have used an IV Pump; it would have made his job so much easier.

I don't recall seeing (maybe I missed it or have forgotten?) in the invoices of things Murray ordered, special IV Pump administration sets....does anyone remember seeing these? If not BUT he did order an IV Pump, perhaps he was stupid enough to originally just assume that he could use basic IV tubing/admin sets with a pump (which of course you cannot; you can only use special tubing that's designed for the particular IV Pump used) and then realized he couldn't use basic tubing and then just didn't bother to use a pump (instead of then just ordering the proper tubing for the pump).
Click to expand...

I can only see the 'Safesite Horizon pump IV set' ordered on 24 april 09.
It is listed on the invoice at 5.03 in the video below:
(I noticed that the previously referenced court video sequence numbered Day 7 part 1 and Day seven part 2 seems to have a gap in it - between part 1 and part 2 - which misses this invoice)

 
Last edited:
I re watched it, it was only the "IV pump set" that myosotis posted (nice name! the pump set pic is on page 1). There was no actual pump neither ordered or delivered.
 
Popescu said:
I watched the video that I posted on the previous page thoroughly (there's also a Part 2) and never saw it. It contains the full testimony. I'll re-watch them tomorrow.
Click to expand...

I went to STKK's videos that are on YouTube to watch that day's trial videos and unfortunately the last 3-4 minutes of that "part" of the trial (when Sally from Sea Coast was on the stand) was missed; STKK has a short apology on that day's video to advise that the last 3-4 minutes of Part 1 weren't taped. So the part where the Apr 24th invoice is shown on the projector and Walgren reviews it with her, it's missing. I don't know where else to watch Part 1 of that day's trial? The end of Part 1 of Day 7, if I recall from watching them again last night, goes from Walgren and Sally discussing an invoice of ?Apr 13th.....then Part 2 starts off with him showing her the blood pressure cuff in the box and talking about stuff ordered in May (May 12th I think?)....so there's stuff missing.

If you go to STKK's website, to Day 7 video, Part 1, when you click on that link beneath the "video screen" on the page you'll see this note added by STKK:

Conrad Murray Trial - Day 6 - 05.10.2011

Between part 1 & part there are about 3 to 4 mins missing from the testimony of Sally Hirschberg. My apologies!
Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/user/JustMeSTKK#p/c/6B093BDCA9E4DB4E/0/lG97gqryR1c

I do know that that invoice DID show a Pump because I'm not the only one who saw it. On that day, in the stickied thread where Elusive Moonwalker was posting all of the info, play by play (for people who don't have access to the live stream during the day), as is done for each day of the trial, he/she (it's post #46 in that thread) noted that on Apr 24 the IV infusion pump was "shipped out."

And considering Murray ordered Pump Set tubing, it makes sense he ordered a pump....but can't for the life of me understand why he didn't use it/why if he did it was never found.

Here's the link to Day 7 of the trial......post #46 is on pg 2 (quoted below):

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/119419-Murray-Trial-5-October-Day-7-Discussion/page2

april 16th bought lidocane

april 21st bought loads more medical equipment catheters ivs blood pressure cuff etc etc.

april 24th iv fusion pump shipped

may 12th 25 lidocane vials t connectors childs blood pressure. tape bandages catherters blood pressure for adult
Click to expand...
 
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myosotis said:
I can only see the 'Safesite Horizon pump IV set' ordered on 24 april 09.
It is listed on the invoice at 5.03 in the video below:
(I noticed that the previously referenced court video sequence numbered Day 7 part 1 and Day seven part 2 seems to have a gap in it - between part 1 and part 2 - which misses this invoice)
Click to expand...

CRAP! You're right. It only indicated an IV PUMP SET, not an IV infusion pump. Dang. I guess Elusive thought it said pump.
 
lemon662 said:
CRAP! You're right. It only indicated an IV PUMP SET, not an IV infusion pump. Dang. I guess Elusive thought it said pump.
Click to expand...

Yes, I thought (during the trial) that the invoice mentioned a pump as well, and I had 'remembered' the invoice page like you....and that's why I went back to look especially. I wasn't 100% sure that the set didn't include a pump, but looking at catalogues, the price for a pump set (IV lines) is less than the price of a pump...I think the 2 together would have come to about $700 - $800.

I think that around the time this pump set was originally ordered, CM was having trouble with his credit card...... maybe he didn't want to add the pump because of the cost. (But as you say, it makes no sense to purchase the 'tubing' without the pump!)
 
I have a question about the IV. maybe im missing somthing so maybe you guys can point it out to me cause the whole set of the IV confuses me. the pros say a drip was usrd and we have the restimony ftom steinberg etc saying one was . but there was no diprivan found in the long tubing. does the set up of the iv allow for another long tubing.i thought u had two iv bags one been
the saline one being the one with the dip bottle in it hanging up on the stand and one piece of tubing that was coming from the saline bag. was there any tubing coming from the diprivan bottle bag?

because of course the evidence points to a drip being used at some point. but the defence argument is gonna be very easy. cause all they will say is no diprivan in the lobg tubing so there was no drip given that night. and the pros will say murray hid it or git rid. was any other tubing foubd and tested? cause i dont think there was.
 
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