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Rolling Stones are a DISGRACE!!!

BuffaloBill87 said:
Thought so 👍
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Just because people have different opinions than you doesn't mean they hate Michael Jackson.

I know f&m longer than today, he totally adores Michael. I don't always agree with him, but that's no ground for accusing him of being a "hater". I do think sometimes people on here can get overly critical to the point where it's no longer constructive, or go on and on about subjects that have become, in my opinion, overly tired, but "haters"? Come now.
 
DangerousGal91 said:
Just because people have different opinions than you doesn't mean they hate Michael Jackson.

I know f&m longer than today, he totally adores Michael. I don't always agree with him, but that's no ground for accusing him of being a "hater". I do think sometimes people on here can get overly critical to the point where it's no longer constructive, or go on and on about subjects that have become, in my opinion, overly tired, but "haters"? Come now.
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Do you not think I'm aware of that?

Not everyone has to love Michael Jackson and not once have I said that he 'hates' him.

Let's be honest MJ did a lot of questionable things in his life so I'm not gonna portray him as some saint.

I just didn't agree on some of the stuff he was coming out with and that he was trying to make excuses as to why he was 86th which I found laughable.

At the same time, if I get some heat from said poster, I won't sit back and take shit.
 
BuffaloBill87 said:
Do you not think I'm aware of that?

Not everyone has to love Michael Jackson and not once have I said that he 'hates' him.

Let's be honest MJ did a lot of questionable things in his life so I'm not gonna portray him as some saint.

I just didn't agree on some of the stuff he was coming out with and that he was trying to make excuses as to why he was 86th which I found laughable.

At the same time, if I get some heat from said poster, I won't sit back and take shit.
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The irony of this whole thing is somebody was calling you out and giving you grief over something you weren't even saying. So it's a vicious cycle you were almost victim to, and you started to perpetuate yourself. When at the end of the day, freedom of speech is King. You can call him out, he can defend himself, but ain't no reason to try to look down on one or the other. I didn't agree with everything he said either. It gets handled, it doesn't need to escalate, no need for verbal sparring. This isn't YouTube, we have constructive dialogue.
 
Anyway, @filmandmusic was a little more right than I realized. I didn't agree still, but I did forget the almighty "stigma" against MJ post Thriller. They've always downplayed Bad and beyond, especially in certain camps, and RS would absolitely be first in place. Dangerous struggled to get so little kudos, the more urban the music, the less some people gave it credence.

I distinctly remember one day, watching a video with two guys ranking the 10 best MJ songs ever. They both seemed like middle school teachers, definitely, middle aged, let's say that.

They literally just picked 7 Off The Wall songs and like 2 or 3 Thriller tracks. One of the guys was like "Let me be daring, and pick a crazy pick" and said "The Way You Make Me Feel". Like, MJ just stopped existing before Dangerous, after the 80s, to them. Call it the "raspy" style or whatever. They just stopped clicking with him.

Such a strange phenomena.
 
@Mister_Jay_Tee

This song reaction goes even further. He loves MJ's voice of the Motown era the most, I'm really not inventing this there are a lot of people who are not into his later signing style. If he didn't change his style into something different he would never have been this great though so it is what makes his voice unique.
 
Yea, and everybody's got their preferences, obviously, that's fine. Everybody talks enough about 80s vs 90s vs Invincible era, etc. But at the end of the day, music publications have to be non biased. And at the end of the day, all of his albums charted high, and no matter how critical, they couldn't deny that he always made good music. Even if you quibble, and say it went from 99.9 to 25% or whatever. Not to mention that Thriller alone earns him ranking into any and All conversations to do with music, talent, and impact.

Like, he should coast to the Top 25 forever just for that. One album that equals most people's entire careers. Xscape alone even. Come on man.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Yea, and everybody's got their preferences, obviously, that's fine. Everybody talks enough about 80s vs 90s vs Invincible era, etc. But at the end of the day, music publications have to be non biased. And at the end of the day, all of his albums charted high, and no matter how critical, they couldn't deny that he always made good music. Even if you quibble, and say it went from 99.9 to 25% or whatever. Not to mention that Thriller alone earns him ranking into any and All conversations to do with music, talent, and impact.

Like, he should coast to the Top 25 forever just for that. One album that equals most people's entire careers. Xscape alone even. Come on man.
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I think this is a great point. I will also add that there are plenty of people on this list who only had a handful of albums in their life, but warranted inclusion. Between the Jackson 5, Jacksons, Michael's solo Motown work, and his adult albums, the breadth of his career was just insane. For any individual era of his life I think he would deserve inclusion on this list. But the vastness of his musical contributions is part of what makes the whole thing so frustrating.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Yea, and everybody's got their preferences, obviously, that's fine. Everybody talks enough about 80s vs 90s vs Invincible era, etc. But at the end of the day, music publications have to be non biased. And at the end of the day, all of his albums charted high, and no matter how critical, they couldn't deny that he always made good music. Even if you quibble, and say it went from 99.9 to 25% or whatever. Not to mention that Thriller alone earns him ranking into any and All conversations to do with music, talent, and impact.

Like, he should coast to the Top 25 forever just for that. One album that equals most people's entire careers. Xscape alone even. Come on man.
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Well yeah when you put it like that. Kurt Cobain got on this list on the basis of Nevermind and MTV unplugged only most likely so you're right
 
filmandmusic said:
Well yeah when you put it like that. Kurt Cobain got on this list on the basis of Nevermind and MTV unplugged only most likely so you're right
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[Warning: Kurt/Courney digression, not much to do with MJ, but yet a tiny bit]
It makes sense to include Nirvana considering their impact on t-shirt sales alone. (Do they have Metallica in it too?)
Well, it actually makes sense because they got legendary...
Though more or less recently, just completing my audio files collection I think, I re-listened to Nirvana. Some fantastic songs but I found a lot of it actually became difficult to listen to nowadays. On the other hand, on the same move, I also re-discovered Hole/Courtney Love and my verdict nowadays is that her stuff in general is much better. Better lyrics, better compositions, better singing, more albums, more listenable stuff, better stage diving, funnier in interviews (including her YouTube channel *), was in a movie with the Pogues and Joe Strummer and Elvis Costello...
I actually hear/read more artists stating that they were influence by Courtney than by Nirvana... But he's number 36 and she's number 130...
And yet MJ should be much higher than both of them... **

* The MJ Estate is mentionned once on her Youtube channel. I've been told it had to do with the fact that Branca was also managing her/Nirvana's stuff at some point not sure about what happened.
** Now, I think all point of this ranking is to have people about Rolling Stone... quite sure they included some excessive randomness on purpose...
 
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Maxym said:
[Warning: Kurt/Courney digression, not much to do with MJ, but yet a tiny bit]
I also re-discovered Hole/Courtney Love and my verdict nowadays is that her stuff in general is much better. Better lyrics, better compositions, better singing, more albums, more listenable stuff, better stage diving, funnier in interviews (including her YouTube channel *), was in a movie with the Pogues and Joe Strummer and Elvis Costello...
I actually hear/read more artists stating that they were influence by Courtney than by Nirvana... But he's number 36 and she's number 130...
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I don't even like Hole BUT I agree that Courtney was way more interesting / influential than Nirvana but didn't get that level of recognition. I think she is - or should be regarded as - way more significant than Kurt. And she really is great in interviews.

I cannot THINK why this intelligent, sparky, mouthy, confident woman would have been so disregarded. 🤔

And back on topic - still don't care about RS and their little list. Pfff!
 
Maxym said:
[Warning: Kurt/Courney digression, not much to do with MJ, but yet a tiny bit]
It makes sense to include Nirvana considering their impact on t-shirt sales alone. (Do they have Metallica in it too?)
Well, it actually makes sense because they got legendary...
Though more or less recently, just completing my audio files collection I think, I re-listened to Nirvana. Some fantastic songs but I found a lot of it actually became difficult to listen to nowadays. On the other hand, on the same move, I also re-discovered Hole/Courtney Love and my verdict nowadays is that her stuff in general is much better. Better lyrics, better compositions, better singing, more albums, more listenable stuff, better stage diving, funnier in interviews (including her YouTube channel *), was in a movie with the Pogues and Joe Strummer and Elvis Costello...
I actually hear/read more artists stating that they were influence by Courtney than by Nirvana... But he's number 36 and she's number 130...
And yet MJ should be much higher than both of them... **

* The MJ Estate is mentionned once on her Youtube channel. I've been told it had to do with the fact that Branca was also managing her/Nirvana's stuff at some point not sure about what happened.
** Now, I think all point of this ranking is to have people about Rolling Stone... quite sure they included some excessive randomness on purpose...
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Well to be fair, Courtney Love has a much longer career. Nirvana didn't get much time to develop. Dave Grohl also has had a much longer career since then hasn't he. Or am I off base, I don't really consider the Nirvana era due to bias.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Well to be fair, Courtney Love has a much longer career. Nirvana didn't get much time to develop. Dave Grohl also has had a much longer career since then hasn't he. Or am I off base, I don't really consider the Nirvana era due to bias.
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I think I understand what you mean... But if I consider Nirvana from Bleach to MTV Unplugged , that makes 5 years. Hole from Pretty On The Inside to Celebrity Skin that makes 7 years. Not a significant difference... And there already, I find Hole's writings and music more interesting than Nirvana's. Now it's not straightforward to compare as Nirvana had most of their career while Hole was in their Pretty On The Inside (September 1991-April 1994) period and Hole only really started to shine with Live Through This (April 1994), just after Kurt's death. I wouldn't say that a given unit of time is that same for one artist or another... Just think of MJ who took 4 to 5 years to release an album but only released top tier releases that very few can compete with, even now. If there is (/was) a formula for "talent" it's not simply "success divided by career time".
And no one can be sure how Nirvana would have evolved if Kurt hadn't died ... could have got even more legendary, could have got forgotten.

I thought after writing that Dave Grohl's career may be interesting in the context of the Kurt/Courtney comparison, but I think he's not in Rolling Stone's ranking at all... How influential was he actually compared to them? Should he be in that top 200? The thing is I never really got into his music so I can't really say much (I only remember owning the Monkey Wrench single, long ago, and enjoying it).
 
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Maxym said:
I think I understand what you mean... But if I consider Nirvana from Bleach to MTV Unplugged , that makes 5 years. Hole from Pretty On The Inside to Celebrity Skin that makes 7 years. Not a significant difference... And there already, I find Hole's writings and music more interesting than Nirvana's. Now it's not straightforward to compare as Nirvana had most of their career while Hole was in their Pretty On The Inside (September 1991-April 1994) period and Hole only really started to shine with Live Through This (April 1994), just after Kurt's death. I wouldn't say that a given unit of time is that same for one artist or another... Just think of MJ who took 4 to 5 years to release an album but only released top tier releases that very few can compete with, even now. If there is (/was) a formula for "talent" it's not simply "success divided by career time".
And no one can be sure how Nirvana would have evolved if Kurt hadn't died ... could have got even more legendary, could have got forgotten.

I thought after writing that Dave Grohl's career may be interesting in the context of the Kurt/Courtney comparison, but I think he's not in Rolling Stone's ranking at all... How influential was he actually compared to them? Should he be in that top 200? The thing is I never really got into his music so I can't really say much (I only remember owning the Monkey Wrench single, long ago, and enjoying it).
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Qualify over quantity most times, I think that's it. That's a Fair analogy most cases I think. I dunno. Some times there is a counterpart that can afford to be up there. Sometimes I think Janet really was right there with the boys, with her brother. Her albums were pretty good.

And The Foo Foo Fighters were pretty big, actually, I think. You should check em out. I should too, lol.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Quality over quantity most times, I think that's it. (...)
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Yeah, this summarises quite well was I was trying to say and got lost in a complex way. For me Nirvana doesn't retain as much quality as I expected "re-discovering/re-exploring" them, while Hole surpassed my expectations.

Mister_Jay_Tee said:
And The Foo Fighters were pretty big, actually, I think. You should check em out. I should too, lol.
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Yes, they're definitely in a long list of artists I don't know yet and should check out... But should they be in such a wide scope top 200?
 
I've never gotten the Nirvana hype. I've always been a little hateful of them, mostly because they were used as some sort of leverage against MJ in the 90s. But I realize now they actually appreciated him a lot, and I find more of it interesting. Songs like Something in the way and Teen Spirit sound pretty good actually. Maybe they have some filler, but all that is to say, I'm neutral towards them now.



Maxym said:
Yes, they're definitely in a long list of artists I don't know yet and should check out... But should they be in such a wide scope top 200?
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Idk, depends how good they are. I'll take them over Taylor Swift any day.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
I'll take them over Taylor Swift any day.
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I'm not really a Taylor Swift fan. Though we are peers, age wise, and I'm definitely within her target demographic, her music always felt immature for me and my life circumstances at the time she really blew up. I couldn't relate to it even though I was sort of told that I should. I never had any interest in her work. But then she released two albums in 2020 and I decided to check them out. I fell in love with her album Folklore. Listened to it like crazy and genuinely liked almost every song. It's a good album. For real.

That said, venturing into that one album never inspired me to listen to more of her music. I have no interest in her discography and haven't listened to her new album at all. I've heard her new single in passing but, once again, I don't understand the hype. There is no denying that Taylor is a very talented songwriter in that she absolutely knows how to construct a solid pop song. Her lyrics are fine. Sometimes they are great. Her voice, for me, is incredibly average, which is what frustrates me about her inclusion on the RS list. But she is incredibly hardworking which I admire.

All of that said, I watched a documentary on Netflix about her (due to my love of the Folklore album) and found her to be earnest and likeable. She seems like a nice person and is pretty savvy with her career. I wish her all the best. But mostly I just wish the current top 40 market had more unique talents. I think part of the reason Taylor is so big is that she seriously lacks competition. The talent in the female singer songwriter pop star arena in the 70s-90s was so huge, I'm not sure Taylor would have made a big impact if she were doing her thing back then.

Anyway sorry to derail!
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
I've never gotten the Nirvana hype.
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Nirvana were a fine band and Kurt absolutely HATED the hype around them. He really, genuinely hated it. I just find it exasperating the way Courtney's work is taken so lightly compared to Kurt's. She deserves better.

Mister_Jay_Tee said:
I've always been a little hateful of them, mostly because they were used as some sort of leverage against MJ in the 90s.
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That was just media crap. Nothing to do with the band. The media loved the fact that Nevermind knocked Dangerous off the No.1 spot and really went to town with that. My take on it was, I'd rather he lost the No.1 to a good band with some great songs than some pile of rubbish. No shame in Michael being ousted by Nirvana, even if the media tried to turn it into that.

Mister_Jay_Tee said:
But I realize now they actually appreciated him a lot,
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They did. Lots of rock peeps really 'get' Michael and appreciate his work.

Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Teen Spirit sound pretty good actually.
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Teen Spirit is brilliant. The voice of a generation.
 
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