Rolling Stones are a DISGRACE!!!

[BuffaloBill87]

If you look at that top 10 alone, I would have put MJ above all bar Whitney.

Elvis should have been number 1 in my opinion and he wasn't even top 10.

That's why the list is so messed up!

MJ is at 86 is due to the stigma around the allegations and to spark a reaction, nothing else.

 

[Maxym]

Unless you are being jokey and I just didn't pick up on that, lol.

I was. (And I actually hadn't understood who was the one and only JB for you, but I was thinking James Brown or Bieber.)
I was actually citing random names that hadn't been cited yet. Out of the four the only two that I know quite well are Baez and Brel.

I wonder if MJ hadn't mentionned appreciation for Brel at some point. But I may be confusing with other artists as many (including English speakers) sometimes refer to him.

 

[zinniabooklover]

I was.

oh, that's a relief!

(And I actually hadn't understood who was the one and only JB for you, but I was thinking James Brown or Bieber.)

Yeah, JB is always James Brown for me but, tbf, he really has always been referred to as JB. OK, I'm not sure about the 60's but since the 1970's, for sure.

I was actually citing random names that hadn't been cited yet.

And it was a cool list. Especially bc you included Joan Baez who is always a tiny bit overlooked bc of Bob Dylan. And Josephine Baker who I adore but is not massively well-known in these kind of general conversations. I see a lot of parallels with her and Michael. I would love to know what he thought about her, if he was familiar with her career.

Out of the four the only two that I know quite well are Baez and Brel.

I wonder if MJ hadn't mentionned appreciation for Brel at some point.

Wouldn't it be fascinating to know that? Brel's most famous song If You Go Away (translation, obvs) was covered by SO many people including Frank Sinatra, Dusty Springfield, Shirley Bassey, Scott Walker, Glen Campbell. Loads more but I mention this lot as versions that Michael most likely would have heard - bc they are from the 60's and 70's - and that might have been his way to find out about Brel.

But I may be confusing with other artists as many (including English speakers) sometimes refer to him.

Bowie and Marc Almond were influenced by Brel and have mentioned him often in interviews. Off the top of my head, can't remember anyone else but I know there's more.

 

[zinniabooklover]

to spark a reaction, nothing else.

I think that's the entire reason for the list. I'm sure it was all quite deliberate and they got what they wanted.

Haven't looked at it in detail and have no intention of doing so. These lists are always nonsense but this one seems particularly insane. Any list that includes Glenn Danzig - even if he is only at 199 - is not a list I can take seriously.

 

[Maxym]

(...) If You Go Away (...)

Bowie and Marc Almond were influenced by Brel and have mentioned him often in interviews. Off the top of my head, can't remember anyone else but I know there's more.

One version I really like of If You Go Away is that of Emiliana Torrini (who I know only from this track on a Brel tribute).
Bowie has a really great cover of Amsterdam.

I can confirm that Joe Strummer once spoke about Brel. (When I say maybe MJ too, it may be I'm confusing with the time Strummer talked about Brel... Maybe both did... But it was something I read long ago and both MJ and Strummer have been high in my personal ranking for long.)

Some will say Stromae was influenced by Brel. I think Stromae would say he wasn't, or not to the point that people said. There was a time when it seemed like people "expected" him to cover Brel...

There are really many many more... I think that in French speaking parts, Brel is as highly regarded as Bob Dylan or such.

I also have some personnal hypothesis that Brel's movie "Le Far West" may have influenced Terry Gilliam's (ex-Monty Python) movies style... "Le Far West" has a feeling to it like a low budget prototype of a Gilliam movie... And both made an adaptation of Don Quixote (Brel made a theatre play and Gilliam an aborted movie, and later an actual movie).

 

[Hess]

I can see Elvis had talent - there is no denying that.

BUT - In my opinion he is extremely overrated as a singer... I have never really understood the fuzz...

Freddie Mercury and Whitney Houston had extremely great vocal abilities. - IMO some of the best singers there has ever been. - And MJ of course.

I will say, that I have heard some Lady Gaga with Tone Bennet and she also made a performance at a Stevie Wonder anniversary concert. She has an amazing voice too. I know she seemed a bit weird for many when she first released an album. But her voice and live singing abilities are amazing.

Wasn't Lady Gaga supposed to be opening act for MJ's This Is It shows?

 

[Maxym]

(...) Especially bc you included Joan Baez who is always a tiny bit overlooked bc of Bob Dylan. (...)

Not sure if she's overlook "because" of him. Both can be listened to mostly independently except for a few collaborations (live duets). Though when you know both of their catalogs... I feel some disbalance as she has at least 4 songs referring to him ( To Bobby , Diamonds And Rust , Wind Of The Old Days and just a line in (For the) Children Of The Eighties ) and in addition she also covered many of his songs... which makes it seem like she was really longing for him years after they've been together). While I know only of one Dylan's song referring to Baez ( Visions of Johanna , which I'm not actually sure what it's telling).
Then, Dylan mostly sang his own songs, Baez had a better voice but I think that more than half of her catalog is made of covers.

Same way a lot of (too many for me?) Hole's songs are said to refer to Kurt (who we talked about earlier) ... but they're usually written in way that you can't be sure if that was the intent of the songs or simply people extrapolating interpretation because "Courtney, then Kurt" is an easy shortcut.

 

[Maxym]

BUT - In my opinion he is extremely overrated as a singer... I have never really understood the fuzz...

They wrote in the ranking description that it's not all about the voice but about overall fame, influence, legacy, talent etc. So the title is misleading and the criteria are very hazy.

 

[DangerousGal91]

This may have already been touched on, but from what I can tell, the charges that were leveled against him factored in their rating given what they wrote.
"What we now know about his life makes his music harder to enjoy, and it’s been argued that as his world darkened his voice devolved into a parodic arsenal of tics."

In my mind, it's very very difficult to be one of the greatest entertainers on earth, and have a voice ranked at 86.

Never mind that most of the overhyped dad rock singers that they've listed have all slept with underage groupies. But we get two false(!!!) allegations against Michael Jackson and he's dead to them.

That's what bothers me most of all. It's absolutely hypocritical and shows a degree of bias. Not sure if it's because he's black, a pop artist, has many female fans, any of those three? Either way it's dumb and not an excuse, especially since it's all based on lies.

Apologies to anyone who likes dad rock, not the issue, moreso the elitism associated with it.

 

[BuffaloBill87]

I can see Elvis had talent - there is no denying that.

BUT - In my opinion he is extremely overrated as a singer... I have never really understood the fuzz...

Freddie Mercury and Whitney Houston had extremely great vocal abilities. - IMO some of the best singers there has ever been. - And MJ of course.

I will say, that I have heard some Lady Gaga with Tone Bennet and she also made a performance at a Stevie Wonder anniversary concert. She has an amazing voice too. I know she seemed a bit weird for many when she first released an album. But her voice and live singing abilities are amazing.

Wasn't Lady Gaga supposed to be opening act for MJ's This Is It shows?

Elvis had it all especially the looks but his voice was stunning, so powerful at times.

If I can dream , American trilogy etc

His gospel stuff was phenomenal too.

Freddie amazing too, can't believe he never made the top 10.

The likes Billie Holiday should be nowhere near that top spot either.

Aretha also overrated.

Gaga does have a great voice I agree! Yeah she was supposed to be, (she confirmed it herself)

The whole list is a joke.

 

[BuffaloBill87]

MJ's voice was so bloody versatile too, there's no way in hell he's not making top 10 in real life.

I hate Rolling Stone.

 

[Agonum]

Elvis had it all especially the looks but his voice was stunning, so powerful at times.

If I can dream , American trilogy etc

His gospel stuff was phenomenal too.

Freddie amazing too, can't believe he never made the top 10.

The likes Billie Holiday should be nowhere near that top spot either.

Aretha also overrated.

Gaga does have a great voice I agree! Yeah she was supposed to be, (she confirmed it herself)

The whole list is a joke.

Aretha can not possibly be overrated.

 

[Nite Line]

Elvis had it all especially the looks but his voice was stunning, so powerful at times.

If I can dream , American trilogy etc

His gospel stuff was phenomenal too.

Freddie amazing too, can't believe he never made the top 10.

The likes Billie Holiday should be nowhere near that top spot either.

Aretha also overrated.

Gaga does have a great voice I agree! Yeah she was supposed to be, (she confirmed it herself)

The whole list is a joke.

Agree with everything except Aretha being overrated.

 

[Michaels Lover]

Elvis had it all especially the looks but his voice was stunning, so powerful at times.

If I can dream , American trilogy etc

His gospel stuff was phenomenal too.

Freddie amazing too, can't believe he never made the top 10.

I would make Elvis number 2, and Freddie number 3

 

[BuffaloBill87]

Could Aretha sing Earth Song?

I rest my case

Great signer, no denying that but number 1 in my eyes

 

[Agonum]

Stevie Wonder or Michael at number one. Number two, probably to Aretha.

 

[Nite Line]

Top 5 should be Whitney, Freddie, Aretha, MJ and Elvis in this order.

 

[Agonum]

Top 5 should be Whitney, Freddie, Aretha, MJ and Elvis in this order.

You accidently left out Stevie.

 

[BuffaloBill87]

Top 5 should be Whitney, Freddie, Aretha, MJ and Elvis in this order.

You could juggle those around in any order based on personal preference but admittedly they were all amazing vocalists.

That's why MJ being 86 is so insulting.

 

[Nite Line]

You accidently left out Stevie.

I have him at #6.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Not sure if she's overlook "because" of him.

Fair point. I wasn't explaining myself properly. As per!

Both can be listened to mostly independently except for a few collaborations (live duets). Though when you know both of their catalogs... I feel some disbalance as she has at least 4 songs referring to him ( To Bobby , Diamonds And Rust , Wind Of The Old Days and just a line in (For the) Children Of The Eighties ) and in addition she also covered many of his songs... which makes it seem like she was really longing for him years after they've been together).

oh sure. I'm not denying any of this. I have a problem with some of the media coverage of her but, for sure, it's tangled story.

Same way a lot of (too many for me?) Hole's songs are said to refer to Kurt (who we talked about earlier) ... but they're usually written in way that you can't be sure if that was the intent of the songs or simply people extrapolating interpretation because "Courtney, then Kurt" is an easy shortcut.

And that's the thing I have issue with. I don't want journalists to always take the easy shortcut and yet they so often do. Maybe it's human nature but it's annoying.

 

[zinniabooklover]

One version I really like of If You Go Away is that of Emiliana Torrini (who I know only from this track on a Brel tribute).
Bowie has a really great cover of Amsterdam.

Don't know it. Will check it out. @filmandmusic - do you know this version?

My own fave version is Cyndi Lauper.

I can confirm that Joe Strummer once spoke about Brel. (When I say maybe MJ too, it may be I'm confusing with the time Strummer talked about Brel... Maybe both did... But it was something I read long ago and both MJ and Strummer have been high in my personal ranking for long.)

Yes, the Joe Strummer thing rings a bell but don't have enough interest to chase it down, lol.

There are really many many more... I think that in French speaking parts, Brel is as highly regarded as Bob Dylan or such.

I do believe this is the case.

I also have some personnal hypothesis that Brel's movie "Le Far West" may have influenced Terry Gilliam's (ex-Monty Python) movies style... "Le Far West" has a feeling to it like a low budget prototype of a Gilliam movie... And both made an adaptation of Don Quixote (Brel made a theatre play and Gilliam an aborted movie, and later an actual movie).

Interesting!

 

[zinniabooklover]

Elvis had it all especially the looks but his voice was stunning, so powerful at times.

Aretha can not possibly be overrated.

Agree 100% with all of this.

Could Aretha sing Earth Song?

Do we know that she couldn't? Jessie J has done a fabulous cover of Earth Song - as in, other people might not agree with me but I think it's wonderful. Do I think it's as good as Michael's? No, not even close but I think it's great. If she can do I don't see why Aretha couldn't.

Plus, I'm not sure that you can judge someone's voice on the basis of one song that they might or might not be able to sing. Seems a bit limiting

 

[filmandmusic]

@Maxym I don’t think Stromae is particularly influenced by Brel but he is being called the new Brel by media. Brel is absolutely regarded as high as Dylan in the Francophone world.
@zinniabooklover No I don’t know Emiliana Torrini
@BuffaloBill87 you seem to have some knowledge about Elvis music. Is there anything in particular you would recommend? He made so many recordings I don’t know where to start. I’m obviously very familiar with his dozens of hits.

Lastly my top 5 would be in no particular order: MJ, Marvin Gaye, Tim Buckley, Joni Mitchell and George Michael. But I would also like to mention Townes Van Zandt, Jeff Buckley, Joan Baez, Scott Walker all voices I have loved greatly during my never ending musical odyssey. Also Tom Waits is a very special singer, he puts emotion in his music that nobody can replicate.

 

[Agonum]

Could Aretha sing Earth Song?

I rest my case

Great signer, no denying that but number 1 in my eyes

In her heyday, I could see her pulling that off. I guess you’re mostly thinking about the ad libs? Those are very much gospel, after all, with the call and respond choir (which, by the way, are The Andraé Crouch Choir!), and Aretha lived and breathed gospel.

 

[Agonum]

@BuffaloBill87 you seem to have some knowledge about Elvis music. Is there anything in particular you would recommend? He made so many recordings I don’t know where to start. I’m obviously very familiar with his dozens of hits.

As a Swede, I feel obligated to present to you this little gem:

Elvis Presley / Smorgasbord

1m 57s

 

[BuffaloBill87]

@Maxym I don’t think Stromae is particularly influenced by Brel but he is being called the new Brel by media. Brel is absolutely regarded as high as Dylan in the Francophone world.
@zinniabooklover No I don’t know Emiliana Torrini
@BuffaloBill87 you seem to have some knowledge about Elvis music. Is there anything in particular you would recommend? He made so many recordings I don’t know where to start. I’m obviously very familiar with his dozens of hits.

Lastly my top 5 would be in no particular order: MJ, Marvin Gaye, Tim Buckley, Joni Mitchell and George Michael. But I would also like to mention Townes Van Zandt, Jeff Buckley, Joan Baez, Scott Walker all voices I have loved greatly during my never ending musical odyssey. Also Tom Waits is a very special singer, he puts emotion in his music that nobody can replicate.

I really like his ballads , his live singing was better than the recordings most of the time.

He also did a lot of cover versions which I enjoyed better than the originals.

From the comeback special, he did a song called memories which I really love, very gentle track but it just works.

Cover versions I like are You've lost that loving feeling and bridge over troubled water - pretty famous songs but the vocals are amazing.

Btw, George Michael - one of the best singers ever! Now there's a man who could sing Live!!

His unplugged versions of Praying for time and I can't make you love me are outstanding!

 

[Agonum]

Elvis Presley / Working on the Building

1m 53s

One of my favourites by Elvis!

 

[Nite Line]

I have only recently got into Elvis’ music and I think he was an incredible singer. He does get a lot of hate from some people.

 

[Maxym]

Yes, the Joe Strummer thing rings a bell but don't have enough interest to chase it down, lol.

Ok, I got completely lost in some partly related search and made a brain spaghetti, but you know, all the roads lead to something Michaeel-Jackson-related (I know a forum where all the roads used to lead to Invincible... well that's a little hardcore...).
Talking of Strummer and Brel, I thought of the cover of My Legionnaire by Édith Piaf by the Clash. Well, no by the Clash but it's on Ellen Foley's album Spirit Of St. Louis. Clash members wrote and played almost all the songs on the album (including casual Clash violonist Tymon Dogg). Ellen Foley also sings Hitsville UK on the Clash Sandinista! album, which is a "Motown inspired" tune. So in a sense, I see Spirit Of St. Louis as an extension to Sandinita! *. Ellen Foley was Mick Jones girlfriend back then. He wrote Should I Stay Or Should I Go? after their relationship.
Ellen Foley is also famous for being one of Meat Loaf's vocalists ( Paradise By The Dashboard Light , album version ). I thought that she had done more with him but I'm not sure. And just because I like to link random stuff right now, yesterday after checking the Foo Fighter (previously talked about in this thread), I checked Jimmy Ruffin who also in my artists-to-check list and I need something lighter in my ears... and I thought... that guy sounds like he could be an influence to Meat Loaf (just an hypothesis)... Talking about Meaf Loaf, it's also the same guy who did the Bat Out Hell II and The Very Best Of Meat Loaf and the Jacksons Victory cover (and also a bunch of metal covers including 4 from Sepultura).
I actually made a search on Foley after thinking of My Legionnaire because I had a vague memory that she was related to one of the Jackson brothers... Not sure at all, may be wrong... She was actually on an album by Joe Jackson (NOT the Jacksons' father but the singer) which only makes such a search more difficult.

What I stumbled uponthen is that she has a version of Nightline/Nite Line on her album Another Breath (1983) : https://mljs.evilnickname.org/ellenfoley/nightline.html

So according to this page and to Discogs, there was not 1 version of Nite Line released by another artist in 1983 but actually 3:
- Randy Crawford (the one people usually refer to)
- Ellen Foley
- the Pointer Sisters

* Though I think it was released before.

And she has a live version: