So why did Invincible not sell well?

But bragging about wealth or material possessions is only a part of rap/hip-hop thematically.

Rap/hip-hop encompasses a variety of themes, such as:
That has nothing to do with my comment. The other poster said that is what older artists music is about, so teenagers can't relate to it and don't listen to them for that reason. Hip hop is what a lot of teens & young adults listen to, and those songs like Grillz were radio hits. Public Enemy style socially conscious rap songs were rarely as popular with the mainstream audience anyway as gangsta, party songs, or Megan Thee Stallion style sex songs. MC Hammer & Vanilla Ice sold way more than X-Clan. Look at the difference in the early Black Eyed Peas albums with Kim Hill and the ones with Fergie. The subject matter was different, and the early albums weren't big sellers. The Fergie era stuff was party raps like My Humps. The early Peas wouldn't have done a song like that, those early records were more Afrocentric. They would have criticized rappers releasing My Humps & Boom Boom Pow. The Peas did an album a few years ago where they returned to their early style called Masters Of The Sun Vol. 1. It wasn't that successful. After that they went back to their commercial style, doing songs with Shakira & J Balvin, and those were more popular.
 
They should really make a sticky thread for this subject.🄱

Anyway, it was a combination of MJ not being as popular (nasty scandals will do that to a man's career and by 2001, most people were just talking about his face) and Sony not doing enough to promote the album (they sabotaged him to an extent as he was planning to leave them). You can't tell me they gave their all on Invincible when they didn't even release "Butterflies" as a single outside of the US, nor did they air any commercials for the album during the broadcast of the 30th anniversary special. I think they should also released "Whatever Happens" as a single worldwide, but even with full promo, the album was never going to sell 10m in any universe. MJ and pop music in general weren't as popular in 2001; hip hop was taking over at that time.
 
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But bragging about wealth or material possessions is only a part of rap/hip-hop thematically.

Rap/hip-hop encompasses a variety of themes, such as:

- poverty

- religion

- racism

- family

- drugs

- alcohol

- violence

- misogyny

- police brutality

- cultural heritage

- material deprivation

- economic oppression

- social marginalization

- glorification of prostitution

- sexual objectification of women
It used to.:(
Now it's I get high and make money, slide on opps, or have gushy vagina
 
There were many reasons why Invincible didn’t perform as well as MJ’s previous albums. The record dispute, subpar songs, the album’s release date occurring a month after 9/11, MJ’s tarnished reputation and image, only 1 music video, limited single releases, no tour, etc.
 
Lack of live performances didn't help either. Apart from You Rock My World (Which looked like a last minute thing that was slopperly put together) at the 30th Anniversary shows not a single song was performed from the album.

At United We Stand 2001 he could have performed something from Invincible but choose to do Man In the Mirror
From live at The Apollo 2002 he could have peformed something from Invincible but choose Dangerous. Black Or White and Heal The World
And at American Bandstand 2002 he could have performed something from Invincible but choose Dangerous.
 
Mj was not in the best condition at the time at the 30 msg concerts he was exhausted had never been interested in a tour
 
Say what you will about Invincible, but I know one thing for sure. The album gave me auditory satisfaction in 2001.
 
Because it's not that good. And it was 2001, so the music landscape was way different than the 80s or 90s so.
 
He was a 40 year old man tryna keep up with young 20 something year olds in every category, visuals, music, production, in the recording studio.

It was decent for what it was, in a clearly tumultuous time of his life, and not that far off from what he did before.

Maybe the problem for some was it wasn't different enough. If you like more of the same it's fine.
 
The album was bootlegged online weeks before it came out. People noticed it wasn't very good and didn't buy it.
Too many boring soft songs. It was a first for me where there were multiple tracks I wanted to skip.
Released at a strange time of year.... Should have came out weeks before Christmas or summer.
CD sales had died down, but streaming/online digital sales hadn't hit their stride yet. Which put him in a strange moment.
Swapping out 4-5 tracks could have changed everything.
 
Lack of live performances didn't help either. Apart from You Rock My World (Which looked like a last minute thing that was slopperly put together) at the 30th Anniversary shows not a single song was performed from the album.

At United We Stand 2001 he could have performed something from Invincible but choose to do Man In the Mirror
From live at The Apollo 2002 he could have peformed something from Invincible but choose Dangerous. Black Or White and Heal The World
And at American Bandstand 2002 he could have performed something from Invincible but choose Dangerous.
Performing an Invincible song would have meant rehearsing an all-new number — learning a new choreography, new cues, new bits of business, etc. Sadly, that was beyond what he wanted/was able to do at that point in his life. Anything he couldn’t phone in, he wouldn’t do.
 
It was generic, it wasn't very good, it was outdated, it was released in an awkward time and era (between the teen pop boom and the hip hop/R&B boom, when he didn't really belong to any... plus there was 9/11), digital just around the corner, his heart wasn't really into it, he only performed one song off the album once, only one video, Sony f*ckery.

He was competing with his sister, Brandy, Britney, NSync, Usher, Destiny's Child, Mariah, Shakira, Eminem, Pink, Avril Lavigne, Backstreet Boys, Aaliyah, Kylie Minogue, Missy Elliot, Alicia Keys, Jessica Simpson, Sisqo, TATU, Christina Aguilera, Mary J Blige... He was in a hella awkward position and he failed to position himself correctly (unlike his sister with All For You and Madonna with Confessions and Ray of Light). It wasn't the end of the world then because Mariah was awkwardly positioned as well, Janet would see her flop days soon, and Madonna flopped with American Life (although her intentions were good). Prince was living in his own world too, would it be so bad for MJ to have that kind of same release schedule as Prince in the 00s?

The problem was that MJ's world would come crashing down soon and it would be his last album
 
The problem was that MJ's world would come crashing down soon and it would be his last album
This is what makes it a bit more endearing for me.

Invincible gets too much flack as "MJs last album" when it was only supposed to be "MJ's first 21st century album".

As a reinvention of MJ and a introduction to a new era of youth, with entirely different sensibilities to the ones who knew Michael in the 80s and or 90s, Invincible was not so bad.

Certain tracks take on an extra poignancy in hindsight too.
 
The album was bootlegged online weeks before it came out. People noticed it wasn't very good and didn't buy it.
Never happened. Review copies were just sent to the media as with any album and MJ's website streamed the album one day before it came out.

The album sold well enough to debut at No.1 and it sold over 5m by the end of the end of the year despite only being on the market for two months. It's not that people didn't buy it; sales would have been good for most any other album. It didn't sell more because MJ and pop music weren't as popular in 2001, with low promo as a contributing factor.
 
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Never happened. Review copies were just sent to the media as with any album and MJ's website streamed the album one day before it came out.

The album sold well enough to debut at No.1 and it sold over 5m by the end of the end of the year despite only being on the market for two months. It's not that people did buy it; sales would have been good for most any other album. It didn't sell more because MJ and pop music weren't as popular in 2001, with low promo as a contributing factor.
Even Britney Spears only sold 10 million units of her 2001 album Britney.
Her previous albums have sold 20 million copies and 25 million copies.
 
Never happened. Review copies were just sent to the media as with any album and MJ's website streamed the album one day before it came out.

The album sold well enough to debut at No.1 and it sold over 5m by the end of the end of the year despite only being on the market for two months. It's not that people did buy it; sales would have been good for most any other album. It didn't sell more because MJ and pop music weren't as popular in 2001, with low promo as a contributing factor.
I assure you it leaked early. How early, I can't remember... Napster/Limewire/Release groups were huge around that time. Some albums that year leaked months early. To the point some artists were required to record new albums/songs and shelved the leaked versions. It wasn't until Eminem's recent documentary that we learned it was factory/cd pressing plant workers who were leaking the music. Labels would send the masters months in advance for printing and workers were smuggling them out of the plants. I even had an album I produced bootlegged like that. I always wondered how my CD leaked early... Regardless if his album did/didn't leak early, it was for sure posted on release day. I waited until release day to listen to it. Had I listened earlier I'm unsure if I would have bought it. I really think people forget how huge Napster and such was back then. Everyone had an Ipod full of bootlegged music. Every college dorm was practically downloading all day. Then all the lawsuits and such happened which hurt music as a whole... People completely stopped buying/downloading music. It wasn't until streaming/vinyl coming back that there was a resurrection.... There were a couple years there were music sales were kind of dead.... All the money was going towards concerts.... Now that's starting to die too because of insanity prices.
 
All the money was going towards concerts.... Now that's starting to die too because of insanity prices.
Then the record labels started 360 deals where they got some of the touring & merchandising money. They say that artists make little or nothing from streaming. Well, most didn't decades ago from record sales either. At one time, labels even paid artists with cars, furs, jewelry, drugs, women, etc. But the labels were getting all or most of the sales money. Like Tony M said in the Prince song Jughead:

Money minders are like parasites
They pose and wheelers and dealers for your rights. And most companies say that you need 'em!
(Not me...)
But I've kicked back, observed, and
(I'm honest...)
Watched 'em bleed 'em, artists young and old
(I can bring you to the top!)
Where'd this unwritten law come from anyway?
That years after the contract, you should still be getting paid?
Boy, I go broke and hit the skids before I take care of a rich sucker's kids. Hell
(My contract...)
A contract ain't no pension plan
(My contract...)
Years after this, my kids are still gonna make the grands
(Tony, you...)
And you laugh at my brother Little Richard when he says you ain't gave him nothing
(Let's leave him out of this)
Hell, that ain't no joke, his songs are still selling, and that man could die broke
So fellow artists
Push for yours, and watch for
Mr. Money Minder, as we settle the score
 
Then the record labels started 360 deals where they got some of the touring & merchandising money. They say that artists make little or nothing from streaming. Well, most didn't decades ago from record sales either. At one time, labels even paid artists with cars, furs, jewelry, drugs, women, etc. But the labels were getting all or most of the sales money. Like Tony M said in the Prince song Jughead:

Money minders are like parasites
They pose and wheelers and dealers for your rights. And most companies say that you need 'em!
(Not me...)
But I've kicked back, observed, and
(I'm honest...)
Watched 'em bleed 'em, artists young and old
(I can bring you to the top!)
Where'd this unwritten law come from anyway?
That years after the contract, you should still be getting paid?
Boy, I go broke and hit the skids before I take care of a rich sucker's kids. Hell
(My contract...)
A contract ain't no pension plan
(My contract...)
Years after this, my kids are still gonna make the grands
(Tony, you...)
And you laugh at my brother Little Richard when he says you ain't gave him nothing
(Let's leave him out of this)
Hell, that ain't no joke, his songs are still selling, and that man could die broke
So fellow artists
Push for yours, and watch for
Mr. Money Minder, as we settle the score
No wonder they must have hated Michael's guts for having bought the ATV catalog. He was the only one thinking ahead of them, even though they were getting the most out of his record sales and possibly tour grossing. Now it's sold back to them...
 
Invincible gets too much flack as "MJs last album" when it was only supposed to be "MJ's first 21st century album".

MJ intended early on for Invincible to be his last album. He said to the Guardian in 1999 that he might not release another album after it and he was planning to focus on soundtracks as part of his contract.

Had things gone well, MJ probably would have released another album at some point, but he had already accomplished everything in the music industry and his declining popularity didn't give him any incentive to stay. At 43 years old in 2001, MJ was close to becoming a legacy artist; Invincible was basically meant to be one last hurrah to show he could still release another big seller (that he was still "the King of Pop") before moving on to other things.

In 2003, before the scandal hit, MJ was planning to break into film.
 
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MJ intended early on for Invincible to be his last album. He said to the Guardian in 1999 that he might not release another album after it and he was planning to focus on soundtracks as part of his contract.

Had things gone well, MJ probably would have released another album at some point, but he had already accomplished everything in the music industry and his declining popularity didn't give him any incentive to stay. At 43 years old in 2001, MJ was close to becoming a legacy artist; Invincible was basically meant to be one last hurrah to show he could still release another big seller (that he was still "the King of Pop") before moving on to other things.

In 2003, before the scandal hit, MJ was planning to break into film.
Maybe that was the plan but the last few years contradict that intention.
 
I assure you it leaked early. How early, I can't remember... Napster/Limewire/Release groups were huge around that time.

Yes, I'm aware that many albums were hurt by websites like Napsters and Limewire at this time, but Invincible was not one of them. That's not to say it didn't leak at all, but not enough to actually hurt sales.
It wasn't the end of the world then because Mariah was awkwardly positioned as well, Janet would see her flop days soon, and Madonna flopped with American Life (although her intentions were good).

Mariah Carey and Madonna both made comebacks in 2005. They didn't become legacy artists until the 2010s.

I'm sure that MJ's relevancy could have lasted much longer if not for all his scandals.

Maybe that was the plan but the last few years contradict that intention.
Not really. He'd still dabble in the studio, but never finalized any plans to make a new album. All he put out after Invincible were greatest hits albums and Thriller 25. Pretty much all of the songs he recorded during this period, including the ones he did with will.i.am, were unfinished. He didn't even record anything he worked on with Ne-Yo. "Hold My Hand" was an Akon song.

It was obvious after Invincible's disappointing performance and the 2003 disaster that MJ was never going to have a comeback; a new album was never gonna come out.
 
^Like was already previously said, stuff MJ was doing before he died and accounts of people who worked with him at the time totally contradict the idea that he wasn't planning to do anything.
Everyone with common sense and a head in reality knows this lol. No convincing people who are blind.
 
He wasn't seriously planning to do anything lol. The only reason he was even gonna do "This Is It" was because he was in debt.
 
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