Susan Fast: Michael Jackson's Dangerous (33 1/3) - the book is released

[HIStory]

<header> [h=1]Musicologist Susan Fast on dissecting Michael Jackson&#8217;s Dangerous[/h] </header> Hamilton writer Susan Fast is the author of Michael Jackson: Dangerous, the 100th volume of Bloomsbury&#8217;s hip pocket-book music series, 33 1/3.
A musicologist and cultural studies professor at McMaster University, Fast is the first Canadian woman to contribute to the series, which turns 10 this year. She is launching the book this evening at Toronto&#8217;s Type Books. The event will be hosted by fellow 33 1/3 author Carl Wilson (Let&#8217;s Talk About Love: A Journey to the End of Taste).
Fast spoke to Q&Q about her new book and the appeal of Michael Jackson and his 1991 album, Dangerous.
Why this album? It was my favourite Michael Jackson record before he died, but I had never thought about writing about him until after his death.
I lost myself in his work after he died, and then started looking around for material that had been written on him. Even now, five years later, there&#8217;s really little quality stuff that looks at Michael Jackson like an artist.
After I listened to Dangerous a lot, I came to understand it as a concept album. When you think of Michael Jackson&#8217;s early work, &#8220;concept album&#8221; is not something you would think of. Albums like Thriller were so much about producing songs that could be released as the maximum number of singles.
The first sentence I wrote in the book is &#8220;Dangerous is Michael Jackson&#8217;s coming-of-age album,&#8221; because I really think that this is the moment that he presents himself to his audience as an adult who is interested in politics, especially racial politics, and is engaged in what I consider to be spiritual reflection, and certainly where he presents himself as a really hot sexualized adult guy.
Do you see a connection between Michael Jackson and Led Zeppelin, the subject of your first book (Houses of the Holy: Led Zeppelin and the Power of Rock Music)? I&#8217;ve thought about this. In the book I say, &#8220;I like my music bloody.&#8221; I am a rock girl, but I do like pop music. I think what draws me toward certain music is an intensity in the music, really good craftsmanship, music that has something deep to say, and an artist who can really lose themselves in the music. Led Zeppelin and Michael Jackson are examples of that. In both cases, the music is so intense.
Can you talk a little about the 33 1/3 series&#8217; notoriously challenging submissions process? The process is very rigorous. I think there were 450 proposals and they selected 18.
They want a long and involved proposal. You have to write part of what could be your introduction to the book and a synopsis for each proposed chapter. I came to it a week before the deadline, but I really, really wanted to do this, and so pushed ahead.
What is the appeal of writing for the series? From an author&#8217;s point of view, it&#8217;s the kind of writing that you rarely get to do &#8211; who gets to write about an album of music? It&#8217;s such a tidy way to think about a project.
In the past, the 33/13 series has predominately featured male writers covering male musicians. Is this changing? If I had a critique of the series a few years ago, it was absolutely that the albums they were choosing were so mainstream white male rock &#8211; Dylan and that kind of thing. This series is one way of producing a canon of popular music, so I think it&#8217;s really important that it starts to open up. I know that the series editor, Ally Jane Grossan, is absolutely aware and wants to address it, and I think that&#8217;s reflected in the latest round of proposals that were accepted.
This interview has been edited and condensed.

http://www.quillandquire.com/book-c...ast-on-dissecting-michael-jacksons-dangerous/

 

[jamba]

To me he looked hotter in Bad than Dangerous.

&#8221; because I really think that this is the moment that he presents himself to his audience as an adult who is interested in politics, especially racial politics, and is engaged in what I consider to be spiritual reflection, and certainly where he presents himself as a really hot sexualized adult guy."

 

[HIStory]

Yes, he had some hot videos during Bad era and very hot stage presence. But this is about the album. I can't think of such a sexy song as ITC from earlier.

 

[metermaid]

i went to see susan fast speak about this book in toronto. first of all, when she read from the desire chapter in the book, she referenced all those mike is sexy you tube videos that people lose their minds over. me and my friend looked at each other and almost burst with laughter. i could have provided some links for the unbelieving audience lol. also the interviewer mentioned he knew MJ fans loved michael but never thought that people actually want to "f*ck him"...again, me and my friend burst into giggles. susan talked about the comments in the youtube videos (guys i couldnt stop thinking about michael's manhood thread lmaooo) and then the interviewer said that maybe we should stop looking at michael through the eyes of white male middle aged music critics because it's VERY CLEAR that many many many women find him sexy as HELL. ahem...moving on...


the person interviewing her kept referring to allegations and how we can separate those from the artist, mentioned woody allen and said "things will always be muddy" and that she tries to "exonerate" him. well susan wasn't having it!! she said "WELL ACTUALLY FACTS ARE NOT MUDDY" and tried to explain how michael is in fact innocent without going too much into the cases. i pretty much shouted THANK YOU. the ignorance! it seems like susan caught the mike fever while researching him. she seemed rather smitten, who can blame her

i got a chance to talk to her after. i laughed about the you tube videos, she asked if i make any LOL no...just a devoted watcher she hinted that joe vogel may be writing one of these for the history record. i knew susan was completely taken with mike when she mentioned she loves heal the world. because let's be honest, not one music critic will ever admit to liking that song! her books is fantastic but she also truly seems to love and respect michael. i was really happy to hear everything she had to say about him. she even signed my book "l.o.v.e susan"

 

[HIStory]

and then the interviewer said that maybe we should stop looking at michael through the eyes of white male middle aged music critics

Music critics should actually take this advice. I often see yes, those middle aged white music critics comment on how MJ is "not credible" in sexy roles and I'm like: "how would you know?" I mean, you being a presumably straight middle aged man, are probably not the target group of such actions so why would you want to decide whether he achieves his goal or not? Millions of women think otherwise. Critics always played blind to that phenomenon - which is pretty much an elephant in the room. Fast argues in her book and I tend to agree with her, that this is because MJ's non-conventional masculinity is threatening to mainstream norms. So they either mock it (by deeming it not credible) or totally ignore it.

(BTW, I just read an old critique about Dirty Diana today. It's on the song's Wikipedia page: "Jackson was never convincing in this kind of role, a boy-child trying to write a song about the kind of woman he never meets in the kind of places he's certainly never been to."[SUP][5][/SUP]
What a totally dumb and ignorant comment! MJ was around these kind of women since he was a child - with his brothers and father sleeping with groupies and all, so what is this critic even talking about? But critics go out of their way to dismiss him as someone who is totally removed from every human experience and thus he is not credible about the themes he is singing about, especially if it involves women and sex.)

 

[metermaid]

susan also mentioned that music critics tend to see anything with too much commercial success as an immediate write off and spoke of the how much kurt cobain and michael jackson actually had in common when it came to lyrical content. she said that if michael was a penniless avant garde artist alot of his "eccentricities" would have been praised not shun. the mainstream likes their artists cookie cutter and safe imo. michael was not cookie cutter and still had tremendous commercial success, it's like they didnt know what to do with that so they just called him a freak. i hope academics like susan fast and joe vogel can start to change the direction of the discourse regarding michael jackson as an artist. and also moving it way past the bad album.

(BTW, I just read an old critique about Dirty Diana today. It's on the song's Wikipedia page: "Jackson was never convincing in this kind of role, a boy-child trying to write a song about the kind of woman he never meets in the kind of places he's certainly never been to."[SUP][5][/SUP]
What a totally dumb and ignorant comment! MJ was around these kind of women since he was a child - with his brothers and father sleeping with groupies and all, so what is this critic even talking about? But critics go out of their way to dismiss him as someone who is totally removed from every human experience and thus he is not credible about the themes he is singing about, especially if it involves women and sex.)

LOLLLL you would have to blind to not notice that all of michael's dancing was RAW. that's how he expressed it. boy child...ok, with a thrust that basically never quit. give me a break!

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

I haven't been able to buy the book but I can say on Michael's unrecognized sexappeal in the media, music critics, I'm pretty sure racism played a key role again. How come they praised David Bowe's androgynous phases during his career and even considered him so attractive but Michael's unconventional masculinity got shun, his sexuality and gender questioned? Damn, I've been called a lesbian because "I love/adore a white woman!" ::doh: :rant:

 

[barbee0715]

To me he looked hotter in Bad than Dangerous.

&#8221; because I really think that this is the moment that he presents himself to his audience as an adult who is interested in politics, especially racial politics, and is engaged in what I consider to be spiritual reflection, and certainly where he presents himself as a really hot sexualized adult guy."

Although I'm sure her book is great, and I'm eager to read it, I don't agree that this is the moment that he presents himself as a really, hot sexualized adult guy-

THAT moment was in the "BAD" premiere, when he suddenly dropped out of the ceiling of the subway station platform, all in studded black leather with gorgeous, wild curls and stood there-and at that moment I felt for the first time (what I realized later)was out of control lust.

 

[jamba]

Although I'm sure her book is great, and I'm eager to read it, I don't agree that this is the moment that he presents himself as a really, hot sexualized adult guy-

THAT moment was in the "BAD" premiere, when he suddenly dropped out of the ceiling of the subway station platform, all in studded black leather with gorgeous, wild curls and stood there-and at that moment I felt for the first time (what I realized later)was out of control lust.

agree 110% re your comment! He was hot hot hot then! He was super hot in Speed Demon video too. The video for DSTYGE is also smoking hot--and there is SEX all over the lyrics--'don't stop til you get enough'--"the Force has a lot of power!" (oh, yeah) has a sexual/sensual dimension IMO! MJ is just hot--for sure before Dangerous IMO.

 

[jamba]

I haven't been able to buy the book but I can say on Michael's unrecognized sexappeal in the media, music critics, I'm pretty sure racism played a key role again. How come they praised David Bowe's androgynous phases during his career and even considered him so attractive but Michael's unconventional masculinity got shun, his sexuality and gender questioned? Damn, I've been called a lesbian because "I love/adore a white woman!" ::doh: :rant:

Agree re racism--absolutely. Also just plain old Jealousy--probably these critics could never imagine being as gorgeous, as talented, as brilliant, as hot in a million lifetimes as MJ was naturally.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

I have nothing against David Bowie, I really like many of his songs in fact. I just mentioned him as an example how many if not all in showbiz get a pass but Michael. And to see the people who are considered the sexiest men alive by the media are white media darlings in most cases, proves there's still racism in the industry.

 

[metermaid]

the press has a really funny way of dictating what they consider "sexy". led zeppelin have some pretty disgusting stories about groupies and this makes them some sort of bastions of masculinity and sex appeal. meanwhile, i've seen women (and men) fawn over a 0.05 second clip of michael *just* licking his lips in an interview for decades and it gets ignored.

i dont this susan is suggesting that michael was never sexually appealing before the dangerous record, she's saying that his music started taking a more adult direction in the subject matter, including sexuality, amongst others. as respect77 pointed out, a song like ITC was pretty ground breaking.

 

[HIStory]

the press has a really funny way of dictating what they consider "sexy". led zeppelin have some pretty disgusting stories about groupies and this makes them some sort of bastions of masculinity and sex appeal. meanwhile, i've seen women (and men) fawn over a 0.05 second clip of michael *just* licking his lips in an interview for decades and it gets ignored.

Right. And I think it's interesting to think about where this value system comes from. IMO it's the same that dictates things like rock music is usually put on a pedestal while R&B, disco etc. are looked down on by many rock fans and critics. This is generally the value system and taste and aesthetics of the straight white man - ie. the most privileged social group. And when we think about it it's still given privilege and is treated in many of these rock magazines as the "right" value system, the "good" taste etc. Eric Clapton playing guitar on stage is considered higher art than Michael Jackson dancing on stage. Why? Because that is straight white male aesthetics. In white culture dancing isn't as important as in black culture. And to be honest that also has to do with the fact that most white artists cannot dance like black artists (some can, but speaking generally), so when white people adopted black music styles dancing wasn't really a part of that, because they could not really emulate black people like James Brown etc. on that area.

Same with this image of sexy that you mentioned. What you described - rock stars sleeping with groupies - is the straight white man's daydream. So they look up on that lifestyle and put it on a pedestal. Any other kind of rock star sexiness is deemed "non-credible". Apparently you can only be credibly a sex symbol as a rock star if you are promiscuous, living the ultimate rock star dream, sleeping with all the groupies etc. But that's the straight white man's idea of sexy. Other people may have other ideas. This is not to say that all women find MJ sexy, of course not, but it's a fact that millions do and the media simply refuses to even acknowledge it which is very strange. Like I said I agree with Fast that it's probably because MJ's non-conventional masculinity which is unconsciously considered somewhat threatening to mainstream taste and norms (ie. the straight white male's idea of masculinity and sexy). I actually think that much of the harassment MJ suffered throughout his life from society (law enforcement, media, public etc.) ultimately comes down to this on a sub-conscious level.

ETA: This is not to stereotype races and people. Of course, there are straight white men who find nothing admirable in sleeping with hundreds of groupies or do not even like rock music and the lifestyle associated with it etc. Michael was straight but he did not find value in such a lifestyle. But it's more about this heteronormative "value" system which makes people question you if you are a pop/rock star and you could sleep with hundreds of women but you don't. It's more about behaviour that is generally considered "normal" and desirable in certain circles. For example, because MJ did not follow that lifestyle, he was questioned on many levels. They claimed he could not credibly convey sexiness (BS) or assumed he was asexual or gay. And then we all know where those assumptions headed to when it all got out of hand. The root of all this was that he did not behave in a certain way that certain people considered "normal" for a straight man.

 

[jamba]

MJ was 34 years old when he did Dangerous--I don't think it's helpful to try and claim that 'this is the moment' that he presents himself as a "really hot, sexualized, adult guy." It implies that he wasn't before--even if that was not the intention, and it demeans his masculinity to imply that. As another comment pointed out, he was very hot and sexualized and adult in other songs and videos, esp. Bad--which is the first explicit crotch grab too.

I am stating my opinion about that one comment only. I hope she is not going to continue making statements like that if she wants to defend his sexualized, adult male hotness. Actually, I would argue that implying he did not "present himself to his audience' as someone who was "interested in" politics, racial politics, or spiritual reflection before Dangerous is not helpful either.

When you say 'this is the moment when'--it implies some kind of unveiling or breakthrough that wasn't there before and that's what I take issue with b/c I see that MJ was hot and sexy in, for example, Rock with You, etc. and I would rather see his artistic development as a continuum rather than an a moment where things suddenly changed. As far as racial politics or politics, I think BJ certainly talks about "the law was on her side" and "the lie becomes the truth" which relates to facing lies and false accusations. Spiritual reflection is shown in Can You Feel It, for ex. I just see these elements as being part of MJ's entire adult career,and by adult I don't mean it just appeared at age 34. In fact, the whole idea that Dangerous is a 'coming of age' for MJ doesn't give him enough credit for coming of age before. When MJ fired Joe and went solo against his family's wishes, to me that is more a time he declared his independence. When he sang in DSTYGE

&#8220;Lift your head up high
And scream out to the world
I know I am someone
And let the truth unfurl
No one can hurt you now
Because you know what&#8217;s true
Yes I believe in me
So you believe in you.&#8221;

that is a huge declaration of coming of age IMO. He told the world a lot about his unfurling truth in Moonwalk in 1988 too--about the abuse he experienced as a child.

 

[HIStory]

^ While crotch grabbing and various hip movements on stage are sexual, but here we are talking about his albums. Can you name before ITC a song in his catalogue that is so obviously and openly about sex? DSTYGE was mentioned but while being a metaphore for sex is a possible interpretation, it is is not that obvious and is very much possible to interpret it in another way (like MJ himself interpreted it in another way when his mother asked if it was about sex). ITC however is very much straightforward.

 

[barbee0715]

Maybe it's not so "straightforward" but that's the way I like and love songs.
I prefer the innuendo.
Michael himself said 'Rock with You' was a song about gently coaxing a shy introverted girl on to the dance floor-but it's a thinly veiled metaphor for coaxing a shy girl into bed. Especially the way he sings it.
It certainly seduced me.

 

[HIStory]

^ Michael did not write Rock with You.

@Jamba

You can consider Off The Wall Michael's coming of age album and it makes sense, especially strictly speaking: he was 21-years-old (the age when people become legally adult in every sense in US law), his first adult solo album etc. But I also understand what Susan Fast is saying.

While with Off The Wall he broke away from his father and brothers, with Dangerous he also broke away from his musical "father", Quincy Jones and fully became the captain of his ship. On OTW you have three songs written and co-produced by Michael. On Dangerous almost all songs were written and co-written by him and all were produced or co-produced by him. Here no one dictates to him any more. He is fully grown and whatever you have on the album he is strongly connected to it creatively. On OTW not everything is.

One can argue that on Bad he already wrote 90% of the album. That is true. But I think he needed to make that step towards independence with leaving Q. This is one aspect of reading Dangerous as a coming of age album.

And I also think that when he talks about sex and even romance on Dangerous it sounds a lot more steamy, a lot more serious than ever before. Well, with one exception and that is Eaten Alive by Diana Ross which MJ co-wrote and in which he sounds very passionately sexual. But that's not on an MJ album and he only sings background vocal.

So I personally get it why Fast would call it his coming of age album. In many ways it is IMO though if someone prefers to view OTW his coming of age album I understand that too.

 

[HIStory]

When you say 'this is the moment when'--it implies some kind of unveiling or breakthrough that wasn't there before and that's what I take issue with b/c I see that MJ was hot and sexy in, for example, Rock with You, etc. and I would rather see his artistic development as a continuum rather than an a moment where things suddenly changed.

OK, you added to this post, so let me react to this as well. It seems you think coming of age means that "things suddenly change". It doesn't IMO. Coming of age is a process. We do not suddenly become new and different people. I definitely did not wake up on my 18th birthday being a totally different person, interested in totally different things than before. So of course, you can find similar themes in MJ's earlier catalogue. Calling Dangerous a coming of age album does not mean that MJ was suddenly a different guy than before. But as an album I think a case can be made for Dangerous as his coming of age album. Yes, a case can be made for OTW as well (or Bad) - but from other aspects. OTW is a fun album from start to finish, while Dangerous is more reflective, there are more serious themes on it, darker tones and moods too. I think he definitely has more to say on Dangerous about the world and also about himself than on OTW. So again one could argue that it makes it more "adult".

 

[jamba]

See a review of Susan Fast's book (and a book on MJ impersonators) in the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/20/a...on&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0

I agree re coming of age can be a process (or it can be a moment in time such as when you are legally able to do certain things and are no longer a minor) but the way it is presented in that article as "THIS IS THE MOMENT WHEN" makes it sound IMO as if it is a sudden breakthrough--a defining moment. If there was such a moment in MJ's career in terms of dramatic self-presentation to his audience I would say it was Motown 25's BJ performance in May 1983. I just think Fast needs to be careful not to play into the usual BS re asexual man-child and not say things like 'This was the moment when" he became a hot sexualized adult, got interested in politics, etc.

It doesn't matter if MJ did not write Rock with You b/c Fast is talking about how he presented himself to his audience, and in RWY he is extremely sexual and HOT! In fact, although he is indeed hot and fantastic in ITC, I find Naomi Campbell's writhings on the ground etc somewhat embarrassing. MJ doesn't need to show his sexuality in such a graphic way. To me the very hottest he ever was was in his performance of Come Together, Dirty Diana and his dancing in HIStory Tour. My point is that his hotness, etc goes further back than Dangerous/ITC and is something that was inherent in him and that he always projected. The moment where he goes onstage with Diana Ross in those tight jeans and sings UpSide Down is amazingly hot too..

However, I have ordered the book and am looking forward to reading it. Some of the comments in the NYT review are somewhat disturbing--like 'the prosthetics of the human"--what does that mean? Using the word prosthetics is not helpful IMO as it makes people think he had all these plastic body parts, as the tabs accused him of having.

 

[jamba]

No, we are not just talking about albums divorced from the videos or the performances onstage. Fast explicitly says 'the moment he presented himself to his audience' as . . . etc etc. She discusses videos in her book so we can't just look at the music detached from the performances. MJ's art was visual as well as aural (auditory ears and all).

 

[jamba]

Maybe it's not so "straightforward" but that's the way I like and love songs.
I prefer the innuendo.
Michael himself said 'Rock with You' was a song about gently coaxing a shy introverted girl on to the dance floor-but it's a thinly veiled metaphor for coaxing a shy girl into bed. Especially the way he sings it.
It certainly seduced me.

Yes, I like the innuendo too. I like the subliminals in lyrics--such as "I'm melting like hot candle wax"--these are very seductive. I mean, being courted or seduced in a gentle loving way is very very sexy (much sexier than someone saying, for ex, "do you wanna f***k?") Of course, MJ was never that way and I agree ITC is more explicit than other videos--and the lyrics are very easily read as explicit ("you've got to rub it" but that line is said by Princess Stephanie not MJ). MJ's lyrics re "no matter what we say or do to each other" is not quite so explicitly sexual but certainly the dancing in the video is very sexual. In terms of lyrics being explicitly sexual Break of Dawn is the most IMO b/c he specifically sings about making love all night.

I am not saying OTW was his 'coming of age' album b/c I see his artistic development as a continuum. I actually don't care for trying to find a coming of age moment when it comes to MJ, but, as I said, if there is a defining moment in terms of self-presentation to his audience IMO it is Motown 25 (or even the BJ video shown in January 1983)--but there were other very sexy moments that viewers saw if they caught him on TV shows, as with D. Ross and Upside Down--where he rocks with her in a much sexier way than he does with Naomi IMO.

 

[jamba]

Check out MJ and Diana--MJ so sexy and hot--1980

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jImFqAwYV7o

lyrics to DSTYGE seem pretty sexual to me--as much if not more so than ITC:

"Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough"

[1st Verse]
Lovely Is The Feelin' Now
Fever, Temperatures Risin' Now
Power (Ah Power) Is The Force The Vow
That Makes It Happen It Asks No Questions Why (Ooh)
So Get Closer (Closer Now)
To My Body Now Just Love Me
'Til You Don't Know How (Ooh)
[Chorus]
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough

[2nd Verse]
Touch Me And I Feel On Fire
Ain't Nothin' Like A Love Desire (Ooh)
I'm Melting (I'm Melting)
Like Hot Candle Wax Sensation (Ah Sensation)
Lovely Where We're At (Ooh)
So Let Love Take Us Through The Hours
I Won't Be Complanin'
'Cause This Is Love Power (Ooh)
[Chorus]
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
(Ooh)

[3rd Verse]
Heartbreak Enemy Despise
Eternal (Ah Eternal)
Love Shines In My Eyes (Ooh)
So Let Love Take Us Through The Hours
I Won't Be Complanin' (No No)
'Cause Your Love Is Alright, Alright

[Chorus]
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
[Refrain]
Lovely Is The Feeling Now I Won't Be Complanin' (Ooh Ooh)
The Force Is Love Power
[Chorus]
Keep On With The Force Don't Stop
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough (etc)

 

[HIStory]

See a review of Susan Fast's book (and a book on MJ impersonators) in the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/20/a...on&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0

And the rewiever proves Susan Fast's point about the media doing everything to undermine, discredit and question MJ as a sexual being:

She&#8217;s also interested in the normative aspects of Jackson&#8217;s masculinity, an area of his identity that she says is often outright ignored, noting that Jackson&#8217;s &#8220;sexualized performances&#8221; were, for many, &#8220;too stylized to be believed.&#8221; But talking about the video for &#8220;In the Closet,&#8221; in which he cavorts &#8212; somewhat awkwardly &#8212; with the model Naomi Campbell, Ms. Fast notes: &#8220;It seems, perhaps too oddly for some to contemplate, that he knows his way around a woman. Failure? I don&#8217;t think so. Threatening? Probably.&#8221;

:doh:

Maybe this reviewer read the book, but it does not seem like he understood it as he felt the need to do add that word "awkwardly" just to discredit a very sexual performance between MJ and a woman. This is exactly what Fast points out in her book about the media and this review just proved her right.

There is nothing awkward in In The Closet - in fact there is great chemistry between MJ and Naomi.

 

[jamba]

And the rewiever proves Susan Fast's point about the media doing everything to undermine, discredit and question MJ as a sexual being:



:doh:

Maybe this reviewer read the book, but it does not seem like he understood it as he felt the need to do add that word "awkwardly" just to discredit a very sexual performance between MJ and a woman. This is exactly what Fast points out in her book about the media and this review just proved her right.

There is nothing awkward in In The Closet - in fact there is great chemistry between MJ and Naomi.

I agree the reviewer was doing the usual media discrediting (sigh)--however, IMO while there IS chemistry between MJ and Naomi I wouldn't say it was great. It's there but not as real as the chemistry between him and Diana Ross in the Upside Down clip I posted before--it really is worth seeing for how much they enjoy each other, and I don't think you see that kind of real delight in the ITC video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jImFqAwYV7o

 

[HIStory]

^ Does it have to be "either or"? What I mean is we all know that he was really in love with Diana and he was not with Naomi in real life. But it's odd that you make it out to be some kind of competition and pit these performances against each other. I love the Upside Down snippet and I agree there is great chemistry but it's a small stage cameo that lasted for about 10 seconds. It's not an MJ video, not an MJ song, not an MJ album. Apples and oranges as far as I am concerned. So what is the point in bringing it up here in order to put down ITC? Yes, we know what Diana meant for him. Does that mean he cannot have great chemistry with other women? I think he did have great chemistry with Naomi in ITC.

 

[jamba]

^ Does it have to be "either or"? What I mean is we all know that he was really in love with Diana and he was not with Naomi in real life. But it's odd that you make it out to be some kind of competition and pit these performances against each other. I love the Upside Down snippet and I agree there is great chemistry but it's a small stage cameo that lasted for about 10 seconds. It's not an MJ video, not an MJ song, not an MJ album. Apples and oranges as far as I am concerned. So what is the point in bringing it up here in order to put down ITC? Yes, we know what Diana meant for him. Does that mean he cannot have great chemistry with other women? I think he did have great chemistry with Naomi in ITC.

Actually, I just went and saw again the ITC video and took special note of the chemistry etc between Naomi and MJ and these are my conclusions

1. Naomi can't dance!!
2. Most of the time she is touching HERSELF
3. Most of the time they are dancing separately and not together (probably b/c Naomi can't dance)
4. The only time I see tenderness or chemistry coming from MJ is when his hand strokes her chin (that's it)

Now does this mean, as you said, that I am somehow putting down ITC?? NO way. I love MJ in that video and I think he is very hot. Naomi not so much (but I am not into her and maybe some guys are going to go crazy for her.)

This is not about putting down MJ or his videos but about whether it is accurate as Fast claims that Dangerous is the moment when he shows himself to his audience as a hot sexualized adult.

As far as the Ross Upside Down performance with MJ--that is true chemistry and she can dance too--IMO it proves my point that he had demonstrated hot sexualized adultness way earlier than Dangerous.

But no big deal--just my opinion not God's truth here!!

 

[HIStory]

Actually, I just went and saw again the ITC video and took special note of the chemistry etc between Naomi and MJ and these are my conclusions

1. Naomi can't dance!!
2. Most of the time she is touching HERSELF
3. Most of the time they are dancing separately and not together (probably b/c Naomi can't dance)
4. The only time I see tenderness or chemistry coming from MJ is when his hand strokes her chin (that's it)

Now does this mean, as you said, that I am somehow putting down ITC?? NO way. I love MJ in that video and I think he is very hot. Naomi not so much (but I am not into her and maybe some guys are going to go crazy for her.)

This is not about putting down MJ or his videos but about whether it is accurate as Fast claims that Dangerous is the moment when he shows himself to his audience as a hot sexualized adult.

As far as the Ross Upside Down performance with MJ--that is true chemistry and she can dance too--IMO it proves my point that he had demonstrated hot sexualized adultness way earlier than Dangerous.

But no big deal--just my opinion not God's truth here!!

To me chemistry is not about how well Michael's partner in a video could dance. Not even about how many times they touch each other. It's not like Diana and MJ touch each other a lot during Upside Down either - except for the hug at the end.

And IMO now you are mixing Michael's private life into the whole thing, which I'm not sure about. Let me tell me why. I'm sure if he had filmed everything in his life we could say that in those home movies where he is with his real lovers he shows more chemistry than with his on-screen partners. But that's only natural. I guess everyone has more chemistry with a person who they are truly in love with than with those who they aren't in love with.

Michael had deep feelings for Diana and it shows, but it's still just a 10 second spontaneous cameo appearance - to a Diana Ross song during a Diana Ross concert. If there is better chemistry there than in ITC it's because MJ really had feelings for Diana, unlike for Naomi. But then that is not because of something having to do with his art, more something having to do with his private life. With your arguments actually you are getting closer and closer to his critics who say that MJ is not able to convey credible sexiness and attraction to a woman in a video - only you add: unless she is someone whom he is attracted to in real life. I respectfully disagree with that. Totally.

 

[metermaid]

Maybe this reviewer read the book, but it does not seem like he understood it as he felt the need to do add that word "awkwardly" just to discredit a very sexual performance between MJ and a woman. This is exactly what Fast points out in her book about the media and this review just proved her right.

There is nothing awkward in In The Closet - in fact there is great chemistry between MJ and Naomi.

awkward is about the last word i would use to describe that video. michael seems almost delighted in his obvious pull over naomi...who was very much trying to pull she tried, bless her heart.
i really enjoy how susan holds her ground against endless interviewers insisting michael's sexual appeal is some oddity and turning the mirror back on them....what exactly are they so scared of? ---- &#8220;It seems, perhaps too oddly for some to contemplate, that he knows his way around a woman. Failure? I don&#8217;t think so. Threatening? Probably.&#8221; <-- exactly

i've had this in my own life for years, when people are like, "wait, you find him hot?". in one instance, i presented the evidence, concert footage and my friend was like whoaaa i never saw it before. the default for the public is to see michael as this peter pan man boy (which he, to a certain extent, crafted) but when they finally take a good look, they see it. can't deny it. how can you!?

i wanted to add, that susan fast was not a big fan before he passed away. she approached michael the subject as a fairly objective researcher and, in my opinion, she truly got it after delving into this body of work from this objective POV. now can you imagine if everyone approached michael the artist from this point of view? as these old crusty baby boomer rolling stone like critics hit retirement, i truly feel the conversation on michael will finally be re-centred. it is no coincidence, imo, that the two great pieces on michael's work out recently are by a younger-ish gen. x writer (joe vogel) and a woman (susan fast).

 

[jamba]

How am I bringing in MJ's PRIVATE life by referring to a PUBLIC video/performance--a concert that was broadcast on TV?? OMG.

How am I becoming one of the critics who can't see him as sexy with a woman??

This is nuts.

I am expressing what I don't see so much in the ITC but that does not mean he was not capable of being sexy with or without a female onstage in public. In TWYMMF he runs after a hot babe on stage, scantily clad, etc--and it is hot, yes, but I don't need that to know that MJ is hot--he is hot without that other female strutting around on stage. I think the chemistry in the video w. Tatiana was better than with Noami--but I guess saying that is going to cause another claim thst I am an MJ hater or getting close to one--LOL.

This is getting way too personal and an attack on me, which is totally uncalled for and inappropriate.

I merely questioned--ages ago--the claim by Fast that MJ reached a sexualized adult hotness in Dangerous b/c IMO he showed that before. Get it????

Sigh.

 

[jamba]

awkward is about the last word i would use to describe that video. michael seems almost delighted in his obvious pull over naomi...who was very much trying to pull she tried, bless her heart.
i really enjoy how susan holds her ground against endless interviewers insisting michael's sexual appeal is some oddity and turning the mirror back on them....what exactly are they so scared of? ---- &#8220;It seems, perhaps too oddly for some to contemplate, that he knows his way around a woman. Failure? I don&#8217;t think so. Threatening? Probably.&#8221; <-- exactly

i've had this in my own life for years, when people are like, "wait, you find him hot?". in one instance, i presented the evidence, concert footage and my friend was like whoaaa i never saw it before. the default for the public is to see michael as this peter pan man boy (which he, to a certain extent, crafted) but when they finally take a good look, they see it. can't deny it. how can you!?

i wanted to add, that susan fast was not a big fan before he passed away. she approached michael the subject as a fairly objective researcher and, in my opinion, she truly got it after delving into this body of work from this objective POV. now can you imagine if everyone approached michael the artist from this point of view? as these old crusty baby boomer rolling stone like critics hit retirement, i truly feel the conversation on michael will finally be re-centred. it is no coincidence, imo, that the two great pieces on michael's work out recently are by a younger-ish gen. x writer (joe vogel) and a woman (susan fast).

Just to say that Armond White--probably now in his 60's--wrote a fantastic book about MJ called Keep Moving: The Michael Jackson Chronicles that was based on his reviews of MJ's videos going back to when they were released. He wrote a wonderful one on Black or White. He published before Vogel and Fast. He is a film critic, an African-American, and one of the few critics who defended MJ's genius with enthusiasm while MJ was alive. Vogel quotes from White a good deal in his book. To me it's better to look at what the critic says rather than how old he/she is.