The theory that Michael Jackson wanted to sabotage his ‘Invincible’ album

[dethorro]

About ‘Earth Song’ there is also another interesting thing.

English singer Tony Mortimer (and former member of the English band East 17) claimed that Michael Jackson was about to release in Europe the ‘Earth Song’ single a year earlier (in November 1994), but the huge chart and commercial success of the band’s ‘Stay Another Day’ single in Europe made Michael Jackson delay the single release of his ‘Earth Song’ for one year (November 1995).

If Tony Mortimer is telling the truth about that, then this clearly indicates that the ‘HIStory’ album was originally about to get a release in 1994, with a different order of commercially released singles.

This doesn’t make sense because of a multitude of reasons:

•The song hit Nr.1 on December 4th in the U.K, so not in November.

•Although the song was obviously successful, it wasn’t a Nr. 1 hit in most countries. It hit Nr.21 in Italy, Nr.15 in Iceland, Nr.15 in Finland, Nr.12 in Japan, Nr.7 in France and Nr.5 in the Netherlands.
So, not even close to most of MJ’s singles in terms of success

•Why would Michael delay the single until one year later and not by a couple of months if he was scared of that particular song’s success in Europe?


•Do you really believe that ‘Earth Song’ was going to be the album’s lead single?


•Also, Michael still needed to record the song’s ad-libs in November 1994. In fact, he recorded them in around March 1995 since they were the very last thing he recorded for the HIStory album.

Remember that Michael Jackson had some really bad experiences in the past when his singles, or even his albums, were knocked out of the charts by other artists/bands.

Like, what the American rock band Nirvana did to him few years before, when the band’s ‘Nevermind’ album knocked his ‘Dangerous’ album out of the Billboard Top 200 albums chart category (on January 11th, 1992).

That particular case in 1992 came as a shock to Michael Jackson, when he witnessed his ‘Dangerous’ album to lose the top position because of the ‘Nevermind’ album.

But Nirvana were huge in 1992. I don’t know how shocked Michael was because his album had been Nr.1 for weeks at that point.
I mean, your album can’t be Nr.1 forever.

 

[Nite Line]

Remember that Michael Jackson had some really bad experiences in the past when his singles, or even his albums, were knocked out of the charts by other artists/bands.

Like, what the American rock band Nirvana did to him few years before, when the band’s ‘Nevermind’ album knocked his ‘Dangerous’ album out of the Billboard Top 200 albums chart category (on January 11th, 1992).

That particular case in 1992 came as a shock to Michael Jackson, when he witnessed his ‘Dangerous’ album to lose the top position because of the ‘Nevermind’ album.

I don’t see your point really.

Older songs/albums are normally replaced on the charts by the newer songs/ albums. That’s how charts works. Michael probably understood the dynamic of the charts better than anyone, as he himself knocked off many artists from the top position. Lol at saying that Michael getting knocked off the charts is “really bad experiences.”

No offence, but I find your posts to be quite arrogant in nature. Your posts are simply your opinions, that you try to portray them as facts.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

:trollfacememe:

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

Everyone has different taste. I like the Invincible album.

 

[ChrisC]

To claim something in order to boost your own importance does not necessarily mean that what you claim is not true (like, Tony Mortimer’s claims about that).

Also, when it comes to such a highly chart-oriented artist like Michael Jackson, then anything is possible.

It is quite possible that Michael Jackson felt threatened by the phenomenal chart and commercial success (in Europe) of the band’s ‘Stay Another Day’ single at that time, so he might have changed his plans about the timing of the release of the ‘Earth Song’ single, or even about the ‘HIStory’ album in general.

Remember that Michael Jackson had some really bad experiences in the past when his singles, or even his albums, were knocked out of the charts by other artists/bands.

Like, what the American rock band Nirvana did to him few years before, when the band’s ‘Nevermind’ album knocked his ‘Dangerous’ album out of the Billboard Top 200 albums chart category (on January 11th, 1992).

That particular case in 1992 came as a shock to Michael Jackson, when he witnessed his ‘Dangerous’ album to lose the top position because of the ‘Nevermind’ album.

Keep in mind also that international megastars (like Michael Jackson) are most of time highly insecure as artists, and also in Michael Jackson’s case he along with the record company used to invest a lot of money for marketing purposes in the ‘90s in order to try to secure high chart and commercial success (because that success would allow them to recoup a big part of these marketing expenses).

I didn't use "international megastar" to suggest Michael wasn't insecure. Merely questioning whether one foreign territory's Christmas chart was THAT important to him. Frankly, I doubt he was aware of the significance of it even after he got it.

 

[Electro]

I didn't use "international megastar" to suggest Michael wasn't insecure. Merely questioning whether one foreign territory's Christmas chart was THAT important to him. Frankly, I doubt he was aware of the significance of it even after he got it.

It seems that, what Michael mostly cared about, was his home country, the USA.
Another discussion we just had here seems to back that up: the fact that Michael had David Finchers "Who Is It" video (which Michael supposedly didn't like) blocked/replaced only in the USA. Europe had it, the rest of the world had it.

 

[Mikky Dee]

Kids' immune systems are weaker, whereas adults’ immune systems are more (or fully) developed and thus stronger.

So, it is far less likely for an adult to catch a cold from a kid than a kid from an adult (or a kid from another kid).

And even if Michael Jackson was telling the truth about that (that he would catch a lot of time colds from his kids during that period), then a legitimate question arises here:

Why did he not take certain medicines or did he not use certain herbal remedies that can prevent a person from catching colds, considering that he had to stay healthy and away from colds because of his work on such an important project?

I addressed that issue which, given all that turmoil regarding those recording sessions at the time, looks more like an excuse on his part.

You CAN'T be serious. People get sick regardless of whatever herbal remedies and vitamins they take! It's a part of life. Michael Jackson was human. He wasn't a goddamn machine that was only put on this Earth to WORK and if he didn't feel well at various points in time, it for SURE wasn't an excuse, to get out of working - he legitimately wasn't up to it! The man had a much stronger work ethic than MOST people....beaten into him, as a child, by Joseph Jackson.....no way would he use "having a cold" as an excuse. That is an unfounded slur on his character and I feel insulted on his behalf.

 

[Mikky Dee]

Opinions are opinions, facts are facts. And especially in Michael’s case, it’s important to get the facts straight and indicate opinions clearly as such. If we can’t get this right on a fan forum, how can we expect the outside world to get it right?

Absolutely and it is a constant source of frustration to me, daily.

 

[mj_frenzy]

This doesn’t make sense because of a multitude of reasons:

•The song hit Nr.1 on December 4th in the U.K, so not in November.

•Although the song was obviously successful, it wasn’t a Nr. 1 hit in most countries. It hit Nr.21 in Italy, Nr.15 in Iceland, Nr.15 in Finland, Nr.12 in Japan, Nr.7 in France and Nr.5 in the Netherlands.
So, not even close to most of MJ’s singles in terms of success

•Why would Michael delay the single until one year later and not by a couple of months if he was scared of that particular song’s success in Europe?


•Do you really believe that ‘Earth Song’ was going to be the album’s lead single?


•Also, Michael still needed to record the song’s ad-libs in November 1994. In fact, he recorded them in around March 1995 since they were the very last thing he recorded for the HIStory album.

I didn't use "international megastar" to suggest Michael wasn't insecure. Merely questioning whether one foreign territory's Christmas chart was THAT important to him. Frankly, I doubt he was aware of the significance of it even after he got it.

The ‘HIStory’ album was originally supposed to get a release in June (1994), but it was shelved back some months in order to get a pre-Christmas release (1994).

These meetings that took place in late 1994 (that eventually led to the cancellation of the pre-Christmas release of the album setting now a new date of release for 1995) are the important ones.

Since we do not know what they were thinking and discussing in those meetings in late 1994 (that made them cancel that pre-Christmas release), we cannot really dismiss what Tony Mortimer claimed about that.

Also, in those meetings took part many music industry executives who suggested different things for the album’s cancellation (including obviously also the ‘Earth Song’ single release cancellation).

These music industry executives came both from Michael Jackson’s camp and his record company (such as, Dan Beck, Dave Glew, Polly Anthony, etc) and their discussions covered many different areas and scenarios.

Note also that Michael Jackson aimed at achieving big chart success with his ‘Earth Song’ single especially in United Kingdom, a territory where the ‘Stay Another Day’ single dominated the charts there at that time.

So, these reasons (that the East 17’s ‘Stay Another Day’ single chart success did not play a role at all in the album’s, or in the ‘Earth Song’ single, cancellation) can be seen only as hypothetical.

 

[dam2040]

Absolute nonsense. The idea of this thread was idiotic and it’s not a surprise it’s only gotten worse as the thread goes on. Ridiculous.

 

[mj_frenzy]

You CAN'T be serious. People get sick regardless of whatever herbal remedies and vitamins they take! It's a part of life. Michael Jackson was human. He wasn't a goddamn machine that was only put on this Earth to WORK and if he didn't feel well at various points in time, it for SURE wasn't an excuse, to get out of working - he legitimately wasn't up to it! The man had a much stronger work ethic than MOST people....beaten into him, as a child, by Joseph Jackson.....no way would he use "having a cold" as an excuse. That is an unfounded slur on his character and I feel insulted on his behalf.

I do not doubt his strong work ethic generally, but I am talking specifically about a certain period of the ‘Invincible’ recording sessions where he did not act in a very professional way.

His collaborators have spoken about his behaviour at that time, when for example in many cases he used to abandon planned recording sessions without even telling where he was going.

So, many of the delays of that album had to do with his erratic behaviour at that time, rather than with his claims about catching colds from his kids.

Interesting to hear, because now I just read the book Xscape Origins by Damien Shields and he wrote that Teddy Riley actually joined in the production from Summer/Fall 2000. I thought first he was with Michael from the beginning of Invincible session and also produced x number of tracks by mid-2000.

But judging from that it seems that Teddy and Michael focused on producing tracks from existing demo material made by other musicians. Which is evident with HCW, 2W and WH. Shout must have also been coming from existing material since the chorus was almost the same from Isleys Brothers song (don't remember the name on it). DWA was probably an original song that was produced from scratch but I could be wrong.

Teddy Riley started working on the 'Invincible' album towards the end of the album’s production in summer/fall 2000 (actually, he started working from a studio in a penthouse located in New York).

‘Don’t Walk Away’ is an original song, but it is one of the few original moments in that album.

That is why, many fans have described the ‘Invincible’ album as a mostly cover album.

In another unoriginal moment from the album (non Teddy Riley related), Michael Jackson sings even in the wrong key (‘Butterflies&#8217.

He should have changed the key in that song, because although it is the right key for Marsha Ambrosius (in her singing solo version of the song), yet it is not the right key for Michael Jackson.

About ‘Shout’, it comes from existing material because its chorus is based on the Isley Brothers’ song with the same name (1959).

 

[seanvezina8980]

Ya.. I never heard of evidence backing any truth behind MJ wanting to destroy the album.. 2001 was a difficult year yes but.. I was following everything at the time.. 9/11 was the downfall of everything.. too emotional for ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING...

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

In another unoriginal moment from the album (non Teddy Riley related), Michael Jackson sings even in the wrong key (‘Butterflies&#8217.

He should have changed the key in that song, because although it is the right key for Marsha Ambrosius (in her singing solo version of the song), yet it is not the right key for Michael Jackson.

Edit: Okay now i understand what you mean. But just because you think he should have changed the key doesn't mean he was singing in the wrong key.

 

[Electro]

That is why, many fans have described the ‘Invincible’ album as a mostly cover album.

Speak. For. Your. F***ing. Self. !

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Please, make it stop! :doh:

 

[dethorro]

That is why, many fans have described the ‘Invincible’ album as a mostly cover album.

“A mostly cover album”? The album has only 2 songs that weren’t written or co-written by MJ: ‘Cry’ and ‘Butterflies’.There were 16 songs on that album. How is that “a mostly cover album”?

In another unoriginal moment from the album (non Teddy Riley related), Michael Jackson sings even in the wrong key (‘Butterflies’).

He should have changed the key in that song, because although it is the right key for Marsha Ambrosius (in her singing solo version of the song), yet it is not the right key for Michael Jackson.

What?? He sings in the wrong key?
That’s only your opinion!
I think Michael knew best how to arrange and record songs and in what keys to sing them.
Remember the ‘Keep The Faith’ incident during the Dangerous sessions when Michael’s voice cracked? They had to re-record that one because the key in that case was too high.Had it been the case with ‘Butterflies’, they would have done the same for sure.
Michael absolutely nailed EVERY high note in that song btw!

 

[HOTEL]

How old are all of you people??

 

[dam2040]

delusion

/d??lu??(?)n/

noun

• an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument

 

[mj_frenzy]

“A mostly cover album”? The album has only 2 songs that weren’t written or co-written by MJ: ‘Cry’ and ‘Butterflies’.There were 16 songs on that album. How is that “a mostly cover album”?

Even the songs (from that album) in which Michael Jackson is listed as a co-writer, this can be very misleading.

Here are two examples:

First, there is the ‘Whatever Happens’ song where Michael Jackson took undue co-writing credit.

Here is a relevant quote about that:

BOS: “When listening to your demo [of ‘Whatever Happens’] and the final version on ‘Invincible’, there is no real difference in melody, text, etc. Why are Teddy Riley and Michael Jackson credited? Was it a copyright issue, as in ‘Give us credit, otherwise you will never see your song on the album?’”

Gil Cang: “Exactly”

Gil Cang and Geoffrey Williams are actually the two artists who together wrote that song.

Second, there is also the ‘Heaven Can Wait’ song, which again Michael Jackson is listed as a co-writer, when he did not have any real contribution to the song (other than his vocals).

Michael Jackson listened to these two original demos (‘Whatever Happens’, ‘Heaven Can Wait&#8217 that were handed to him, he liked them and he decided to re-record them with his own voice (but taking also undue co-writing credits for both of them).

 

[Electro]

BOS: “When listening to your demo [of ‘Whatever Happens’] and the final version on ‘Invincible’, there is no real difference in melody, text, etc. Why are Teddy Riley and Michael Jackson credited? Was it a copyright issue, as in ‘Give us credit, otherwise you will never see your song on the album?’”

That's a highly suggestive "question", by that interviewer playing dumb/deaf, making it out to be some kind of blackmail, which is nonsense. A song writer creates and submits his songs to get them redone by proper singers. If anything is altered / added to the lyrics or music, there will be additional writers credits. That's a music industry standard.


And regarding "cover":

It's a bit of a grey zone if a re-recording of a writers demo (with vocals and music in demo state, not intended for release) qualifies as a "cover" or not. Usually it's only considered a "cover" if an original has been commercially released before. (Did anyone ever seriously call "Man In The Mirror" a "cover"? Or The Jackson Five a "cover band"? No.)

It's clear though that if only a few things are changed and added to the composition or lyrics, that it technically is not a "cover" anymore.

On "Whatever Happens" Michael altered the singing melodies at several parts and added all ad-libs. Teddy enhanced the music production a lot. So both fully deserve their writing credits, next to Gil and Geoffry. (Not even mentioning that Santana additionally took the song to another level with his guitar play.)

Same goes for "Heaven Can Wait".

So what are all the other "cover" songs then, that qualify the full Invincible release as a "cover album" for "many fans" other than mj_frency?

 

[SoCav]

^I agree with you that the tracks on Invincible are not covers, but I disagree about the writing credits. I think MJ and Teddy deserved production credits, but not writing credits (at least for some of the tracks). If you listen to the demo for Whatever Happens, everything is already there in terms of songwriting.

Compare it to, for example, the original writer demo of Human Nature. It's very similar in terms of how much it matches the final released track. Yet in the case of Human Nature, writing credit solely went to Porcaro and Bettis (Quincy got production credits). The same goes for Man in the Mirror. The final version differs from Siedah's original demo, but only she and Glen Ballard got the writing credit (and Quincy and Michael production credits).

By all accounts, MJ was wonderful to work with in the studio, being very hard-working, friendly and humble. But this is one small blemish that I personally can't really justify. It's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, it only seems to have occurred a few times and many stars are much worse in this regard than Michael. But that still does not make it right.

 

[Electro]

^I agree with you that the tracks on Invincible are not covers, but I disagree about the writing credits. I think MJ and Teddy deserved production credits, but not writing credits (at least for some of the tracks). If you listen to the demo for Whatever Happens, everything is already there in terms of songwriting.

Yes, (almost) everything of the demo is in the final version. But not everything of the final version is on the demo. They added and altered some things, so writing credit is deserved for that, I think. (Seemingly especially for Teddy, but we don't know how much Michael was involved in redoing the music.)

But I agree that those writing credits should be more specific. Those credited will know what they did and will (hopefully) get their fair % for their specific writing input, but on the outside it's not really clear who did what, it's all just "writing".

And sure, that whole getting-credit-for-things can be shady politics sometimes, and Michael surely was not innocent of that. (e.g. the "Rock With You" story.) But unless we get to know who did exactly what and the exact numbers of how the writing credit is shared in songs like "Whatever Happens", we can't really judge if it was fair. Maybe Michael just has something like 5%, or so. (The order in which names are listed doesn't say anything about that.)

 

[mj_frenzy]

And regarding "cover":

It's a bit of a grey zone if a re-recording of a writers demo (with vocals and music in demo state, not intended for release) qualifies as a "cover" or not. Usually it's only considered a "cover" if an original has been commercially released before. (Did anyone ever seriously call "Man In The Mirror" a "cover"? Or The Jackson Five a "cover band"? No.)

I know the definition of ‘cover’ in music.

And this does not change what I said earlier about it, that many fans get a feel of a mostly cover album when they listen to the ‘Invincible’ album.

It's clear though that if only a few things are changed and added to the composition or lyrics, that it technically is not a "cover" anymore.

That is not true, because generally a lot of cover songs do have a few changes/additions in their composition (melody) and/or their lyrics, as compared to the original songs (and technically are still considered cover songs).

That is perfectly normal and it is allowed for a cover song as long as the artist/band that records or performs the cover song gets a specific, written permission from the owner of the original song.

So what are all the other "cover" songs then, that qualify the full Invincible release as a "cover album" for "many fans" other than mj_frency?

‘2000 Watts’ is another song that falls into this category, because few people who got a chance to listen to the Tyrese Gibson’s original version of the song they found it very similar to the version that later was included on the ‘Invincible’ album.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

deleted

I deleted my post. My energy is better invested in defending MJ over on Twitter. :laughing:

 

[Electro]

I know the definition of ‘cover’ in music.

You have proven that you don't. For the second time now.
It's really become a tiring waste of energy to discuss with you here, as you can't seem to accept to ever be wrong about anything when you clearly are. It's just impossible for you, right?

If it's a writers demo recording that is not intended for release by itself, it is NOT a "cover", if another artist picks it up and re-records it properly. That's within the realm of "work in progress", leading to the finished commercially released product that is the version Michael put out. It's that simple.

And btw, in US copyright law, it's the publisher that green lights the commercial release of a cover version, not the owner. The owner is only asked if there are changes made or things added... meaning that his creation is altered so that it's not a pure "cover". Fact.

So putting your (and allegedly "many fans'") misdefinition of "cover" aside now....

Enlighten us... how many songs of the 16 on that album are there in total that are known to be heavily based on writers demos? And if you do, name them, back it up with sources, quotes, youtube links etc, or just don't bother.