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Thriller 40th Anniversary

AlwaysThere said:
I always thought the “MJ only did remixes because he had to” claim was bogus, even when it came directly from his mouth. His own actions contradict that—releasing them as single B-sides since as early as Thriller, pushing for the T25 remixes in lieu of album outtakes, etc. I wouldn’t call it reluctance as much as an outright willingness.
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The T25 YouTube doc had footage of him in the studio with Will working on the remixes. MJ was rocking. He liked it.
 
Sometimes reading these discussions I feel like people are talking like MJ is still here lol. Him doing something himself is not the same as his estate doing it and it never will be. In the same vein, him doing something I don't like doesn't mean I need to be happy with or think it's right that they are doing it.
 
SmoothGangsta said:
Sometimes reading these discussions I feel like people are talking like MJ is still here lol. Him doing something himself is not the same as his estate doing it and it never will be. In the same vein, him doing something I don't like doesn't mean I need to be happy with or think it's right that they are doing it.
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Well, liking it is not the same as accepting that there is a precedent.

And his estate doing something is not him doing it, true. But again, they have the legal authority, with no creative restraints, because MJ never said anything in his will. Maybe that's a blessing, or it's also a curse, but really, it just sounds no different than MJ in the 2000s. So we're right back to where we start. As always.

Wanna talk about Invincible some more?
 
SmoothGangsta said:
I don't consider Mj personally making remixes with Will.I.Am as a "precedent" for what the posthumous work has been, if that's what you're trying to say.
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That's not really my precedent either. I'd say letting Teddy Riley rework Dangerous (the song) to what it is, allowing the majority of Invincible to be an automated music making process, and the entire function of Blood on the Dance Floor to be better precedents. And the general process of just reworking songs. Barring Xscape, which is perhaps the extreme far right version of what we're talking about and has an entirely different purpose than "completion".
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
That's not really my precedent either. I'd say letting Teddy Riley rework Dangerous (the song) to what it is, allowing the majority of Invincible to be an automated music making process, and the entire function of Blood on the Dance Floor to be better precedents. And the general process of just reworking songs. Barring Xscape, which is perhaps the extreme far right version of what we're talking about and has an entirely different purpose than "completion".
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You keep talking about stuff MJ personally did when he was alive as if it's the same thing as what people are doing with his music after his death.
 
While I’m generally in the camp of finishing the music as opposed to releasing it incomplete, I think it’s a bit disingenuous to say that MJ’s habit of passing existing demos to new producers somehow equates to it being okay to completely rework his music posthumously. That would only qualify as precedent if he wasn’t an active participant in the production process, which he was.
 
SmoothGangsta said:
You keep talking about stuff MJ personally did when he was alive as if it's the same thing as what people are doing with his music after his death.
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I consider it the same because legally, it's supposed to represent his interests. Because yes, he's not alive. But you're saying without the final say so then it'll never be the same. Which is fine, I guess, but then I don't know what you expect from posthumous releases. Genuinely, I would like to understand what you would rather they proceed to do. Just anniversaries and a box set?

Also, I never said they were the same, I said they sound the same. To me they might as well be, Thriller 25 and everything after that basically fall into the same camp, of not being proper work. MJs discography is complete, fully and comprehensively, to me. Everything else is just extra add ONS.
 
AlwaysThere said:
While I’m generally in the camp of finishing the music as opposed to releasing it incomplete, I think it’s a bit disingenuous to say that MJ’s habit of passing existing demos to new producers somehow equates to it being okay to completely rework his music posthumously. That would only qualify as precedent if he wasn’t an active participant in the production process, which he was.
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I was under the impression that at times he was less involved. That wasn't my strongest case of evidence, I admit. I mainly was saying that the music was reworked so it's not alien to the concept, the difference is he's no longer alive to give his final stamp.

A better example would've been that Farewell my Summer Love actually. That was a collection of songs they just kinda cobbled together. Far less high intensity though.

I say it's not, not Okay, because they can't honestly claim that it's the finished work of Michael Jackson. They can alter and rework the songs but they'll never be *the* versions, they're just alternate versions alongside. In that sense, Xscape was more honest than Michael, which was the shoddiest record I've seen, strictly because it tried to pass itself off as the record "MJ would've made", instead of what it was, a bunch of songs put together.
 
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To me, the key is transparency & honesty.

MJ didn't leave specific demands regarding his unreleased & incomplete work, so in the end it will always be anyones guess.

IMHO, we as admirers & lovers of his art are lucky for each & every song & each and every peak into his works that we are getting from MJ's vault.

In regards to releases of new/unreleased material, passed off as "new album" like with the MICHAEL (7 song version) & XSCAPE albums, I'd say this:
- both approaches are fine & understandable
- just be completely transparent about the origins of the songs and process you are applying
- ALWAYS include MJ's original & final/most complete version of the songs

In regards to anniversary editions like Bad25 & Thriller40:
- release the songs that in earnest belong to the respective era, or even better to the respective album sessions
- release the version of the song how it was worked on & sounded in that very era / considered for that very album
- be completely transparent about the origins of the songs and explain if there are earlier or later & more complete versions


What I would propose for the future:

The times have changed & I agree with what Sony CEO Rob Stringer said in his 2018 interview: The music business now is a track based/single based environment. To correspond with that development I would structure new MJ releases differently in the future:

- release one new song at a time
- release not more than 2 to 3 songs per year (can you guys imagine how exciting it would be to get a new song every 4 month??)
- release a digital EP with all the different versions of the song (demos, work in progress, remixes, restructures, whatever, everything)
- all of the above made points regarding transparency & honesty apply of course
- If a song has too few MJ vocals, fill in the gaps with a thoughtful selected duet partner (ALWAYS release the "only MJ" version of the song additionally)
- create or determine one main version of the song (this can at one time be the OG MJ version, if it's complete enough & you wanna go retro, another time it can be the updated version, or even the duet version)


But ONE thing PLEASE:
DON'T let us wait for a new MJ song another 8 years.
And don't let leakers quench the thirst for more/new MJ stuff.
Work with producers & co-writers of MJ to get the material out, that they have. Come to a an agreement , come to a compromise!
 
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MJJuniorSinceMW said:
To me, the key is transparency & honesty.

MJ didn't leave specific demands regarding his unreleased & incomplete work, so in the end it will always be anyones guess.

IMHO, we as admirers & lovers of his art are lucky for each & every song & each and every peak into his works that we are getting from MJ's vault.

In regards to releases of new/unreleased material, passed off as "new album" like with the MICHAEL (7 song version) & XSCAPE albums, I'd say this:
- both approaches are fine & understandable
- just be completely transparent about the origins of the songs and process you are applying
- ALWAYS include MJ's original & final/most complete version of the songs

In regards to anniversary editions like Bad25 & Thriller40:
- release the songs that in earnest belong to the respective era, or even better to the respective album sessions
- release the version of the song how it was worked on & sounded in that very era / considered for that very album
- be completely transparent about the origins of the songs and explain if there are earlier or later & more complete versions


What I would propose for the future:

The times have changed & I agree with what Sony CEO Rob Stringer said in his 2018 interview: The music business now is a track based/single based environment. To correspond with that development I would structure new MJ releases differently in the future:

- release one new song at a time
- release not more than 2 to 3 songs per year (can you guys imagine how exciting it would be to get a new song every 4 month??)
- release a digital EP with all the different versions of the song (demos, work in progress, remixes, restructures, whatever, everything)
- all of the above made points regarding transparency & honesty apply of course
- If a song has too few MJ vocals, fill in the gaps with a thoughtful selected duet partner (ALWAYS release the "only MJ" version of the song additionally)
- create or determine one main version of the song (this can at one time be the OG MJ version, if it's complete enough & you wanna go retro, another time it can be the updated version, or even the duet version)


But ONE thing PLEASE:
DON'T let us wait for a new MJ song another 8 years.
And don't let leakers quench the thirst for more/new MJ stuff.
Work with producers & co-writers of MJ to get the material out, that they have. Come to a an agreement , come to a compromise!
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Everything you've said, I agree with or can otherwise accept.

The Xscape approach was the better approach and one that should satisfy everyone. There really is a lot of confusion on my part why people are debating things so hard. It's the best of both worlds approach pretty much.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Everything you've said, I agree with or can otherwise accept.

The Xscape approach was the better approach and one that should satisfy everyone. There really is a lot of confusion on my part why people are debating things so hard. It's the best of both worlds approach pretty much.
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I’ve noticed three common complaints with XSCAPE:

1.) The remixes are being promoted as the definitive editions of the songs, while the demos are relegated to bonus tracks.
2.) The demos are presented in embarrassingly subpar quality, and were clearly given less attention and care than the remixes.
3.) The demos appear to quite literally be the ORIGINAL demos—meaning, the earliest versions of each song.

I think point #3 is kind of nit picky and ridiculous, but points #1 and #2 are fully valid. XSCAPE had better intentions, but the execution was poor. One of the many reasons why I prefer MICHAEL, faults and all. I’d rather an album that stays (mostly) true to the original recordings, than one that shows outright contempt for them.
 
AlwaysThere said:
I’ve noticed three common complaints with XSCAPE:

1.) The remixes are being promoted as the definitive editions of the songs, while the demos are relegated to bonus tracks.
2.) The demos are presented in embarrassingly subpar quality, and were clearly given less attention and care than the remixes.
3.) The demos appear to quite literally be the ORIGINAL demos—meaning, the earliest versions of each song.

I think point #3 is kind of nit picky and ridiculous, but points #1 and #2 are fully valid. XSCAPE had better intentions, but the execution was poor. One of the many reasons why I prefer MICHAEL, faults and all. I’d rather an album that stays (mostly) true to the original recordings, than one that shows outright contempt for them.
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Without turning this into another Xscape apology thread, I've heard all these complaints and they've never rang true for me, because:

1. That's how the projects always been. We already knew that. And that is the case for every posthumous song that wasn't finished. Is Hollywood Tonight complete by MJ standards because Teddy added poetry on top it? Would half a Minnie Ripperton song be done thanks to another artist singing the other half? Almost all posthumous songs are inauthentic, some simply invite the feeling of "completion" more. Mac Miller's Circles or David Bowie's BlackStar is the quality of release most deceased artists wish they could get. Michael was so far removed from both. But though it's still true, I'll say Akon did the best job of anybody, even if Hold my Hand isn't my favorite song. He truly made the song whole.

I think the bigger argument is that Xscape is not true to MJs style. It's basically a Timbaland album, completely unfamiliar to him. Basically it's the 20/20 Experience 2.5 by Justin Timberlake. But that was by design, and that guy owes everything to Michael, so it goes both ways I guess. Depending on the songs themselves, even in their original incarnations, they're all out there, away from MJs "norm". America samples, a soft ballad right before the hard edged, angular, Bad era, a Paul Anka piano ditty, a Latin Tango Smooth Criminal sequel, a Public Service Announcement sequel to Abortion Papers, a cloudy, atmospheric ballad, a story about a housewife in ailing, and another Invincible outtake about the media. And none of them were on the lists of songs MJ wanted to finish if I remember rightly. But anyway. They are all songs that take a bit of adjustment to getting used to. Musically the new sounds are more uniform and at least, dance oriented. Not that it's great that they are all the same, and still ultimately a bit plain. There were much wilder sounds and artists out there than, Stargate.

In addition, the deluxe means you get all the demoes. Original Versions, as they are called. That's quite a lot of airtime and doesn't suggest they're second string. The standard 8 only version didn't sell much at all. And I heard the original version of A Place With No Name on the radio way more than I heard the new version. But when a song was put to radio, it chatted, and it charted because people flocked to it. Like Chicago, and Loving You, and definitely Love Never Felt So Good.

Now for the other 2 points:

2. I can agree, but at the same time, I don't. This is an audiophile thing, the songs sound fine to me. I do care about the quality, and I get that there's tape warp on Loving You and maybe the mastering isn't always the best, but really, it's silly. All 2000s releases sound bad to adequate. It's no changes here.


3. That actually did bother me, I liked the later versions more. But it's a decent archival project and we'll certainly hear other versions of these songs, you can bet money on that.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Without turning this into another Xscape apology thread, I've heard all these complaints and they've never rang true for me, because:

1. That's how the projects always been. We already knew that. And that is the case for every posthumous song that wasn't finished. Is Hollywood Tonight complete by MJ standards because Teddy added poetry on top it? Would half a Minnie Ripperton song be done thanks to another artist singing the other half? Almost all posthumous songs are inauthentic, some simply invite the feeling of "completion" more. Mac Miller's Circles or David Bowie's BlackStar is the quality of release most deceased artists wish they could get. Michael was so far removed from both. But though it's still true, I'll say Akon did the best job of anybody, even if Hold my Hand isn't my favorite song. He truly made the song whole.

I think the bigger argument is that Xscape is not true to MJs style. It's basically a Timbaland album, completely unfamiliar to him. Basically it's the 20/20 Experience 2.5 by Justin Timberlake. But that was by design, and that guy owes everything to Michael, so it goes both ways I guess. Depending on the songs themselves, even in their original incarnations, they're all out there, away from MJs "norm". America samples, a soft ballad right before the hard edged, angular, Bad era, a Paul Anka piano ditty, a Latin Tango Smooth Criminal sequel, a Public Service Announcement sequel to Abortion Papers, a cloudy, atmospheric ballad, a story about a housewife in ailing, and another Invincible outtake about the media. And none of them were on the lists of songs MJ wanted to finish if I remember rightly. But anyway. They are all songs that take a bit of adjustment to getting used to. Musically the new sounds are more uniform and at least, dance oriented. Not that it's great that they are all the same, and still ultimately a bit plain. There were much wilder sounds and artists out there than, Stargate.

In addition, the deluxe means you get all the demoes. Original Versions, as they are called. That's quite a lot of airtime and doesn't suggest they're second string. The standard 8 only version didn't sell much at all. And I heard the original version of A Place With No Name on the radio way more than I heard the new version. But when a song was put to radio, it chatted, and it charted because people flocked to it. Like Chicago, and Loving You, and definitely Love Never Felt So Good.

Now for the other 2 points:

2. I can agree, but at the same time, I don't. This is an audiophile thing, the songs sound fine to me. I do care about the quality, and I get that there's tape warp on Loving You and maybe the mastering isn't always the best, but really, it's silly. All 2000s releases sound bad to adequate. It's no changes here.


3. That actually did bother me, I liked the later versions more. But it's a decent archival project and we'll certainly hear other versions of these songs, you can bet money on that.
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1.) There is a significant difference between completing songs and remixing them. Posthumous albums by any artist that disregard the artist’s wishes and takes an excess of creative agency usually wind up embroiled in controversy (see albums by Hendrix, 2pac, Biggie, and Juice WRLD, among others). XSCAPE was literally built on the foundation of creating brand-new instrumentals over MJ’s existing vocals, without any consideration for what he did (or wanted to do) to the tracks. It’s not a matter of what songs invite the best feeling of “completion,” it’s how the artist’s estate chooses to navigate their catalog.

I think the actual argument is that XSCAPE purposefully dismisses and disrespects MJ as an artist by erasing his contributions, his preferences, and his intentions—and I say this as someone who generally prefers the remixes. Whether or not the style was authentic or appropriate is irrelevant. Timbaland publicly stated that he stopped listening to the demos at a point because they “threw him off.” XSCAPE isn’t Michael Jackson; it’s Timbaland & Friends (feat. Michael Jackson).

And again, why are we denigrating MJ’s actual work to deluxe edition bonus tracks? Why did fans have to put in effort to locate/purchase the actual songs? This isn’t in the same league as, say, McClain giving “Behind the Mask” a fresh coat of paint, or The Beatles finishing “Free As a Bird”; it’s quite truthfully Reid saying, “MJ’s work comes second, ours comes first.”

2.) I’m not an audiophile in the slightest, but there’s an objective and sharp decline in quality between the main mixes and the original demos. It’s not even “bad to adequate”; some of the songs sound like they weren’t given a proper mix. “Chicago” in particular is one of the worst-sounding songs I’ve ever heard on a major label release. It doesn’t bother me excessively (with the exception of “Chicago”), but when you hear the crisp high end and wide spatial fields of the remixes give way to the dull and narrow demos, it gives off the clear impression of preferential treatment.

3.) I can understand the disappointment, but in my opinion, it isn’t absurd to take the phrase “original version” literally, and thus present the original version of the song, in its earliest incarnation. I just don’t think it’s a sensible thing to hold against an album, but that’s just me.
 
AlwaysThere said:
XSCAPE was literally built on the foundation of creating brand-new instrumentals over MJ’s existing vocals, without any consideration for what he did (or wanted to do) to the tracks.
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I guess the difference is just in whether you look at MJ first as a singer, a songwriter/composer, and/or an entertainer. In the same way MJ sang songs before Off The Wall, and other people's songs written for him after that, that's one way to rationalize it in my mind.

I would prefer they don't go for this approach again, but modernizing the tracks is not a bad idea on paper, as long as people agree with that. What they do or don't prefer is different.

I just don't consider it blasphemous exactly. It only is feasible because MJ is gone, because we're in the wilderness. We make do as best we can. As long as it is chart worthy, that's really it for me.

And again, on sound quality, all I can do is nod and wave. Though I don't like the OG Chicago, and maybe the quality is why. But, alas.

We really got the only versions in most cases. A slight edit/rework of APWNN, Blue Gangsta, and Xscape, and the later vocal of DYKWYCA (which isn't as good), is not being cheated. They still have their place, I don't mind hearing these takes of the songs.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
In the same way MJ sang songs before Off The Wall, and other people's songs written for him after that, that's one way to rationalize it in my mind.
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The problem is that Xscape treated the songs Michael had written and composed himself in the exact same way it treated those by outside writers/producers. Rodney Jerkins can do whatever he wants to the production of Xscape (the song); he came up with it in the first place, and as long as the version he worked on with MJ is also available, I see no problem.

Michael's own compositions, on the other hand, are a whole different story. Who gives some random producer the right to override MJ's original production (which he was not pleased with, hence the lack of release), and present it as the 'definitive' version. MJ wrote a song like DYKWYCA with a specific vision for the song in mind. The fact that he didn't think it was strong enough for release on an album doesn't rationalise the mutation of his art into something entirely different.
 
A high selling tabloid magazine in Belgium had 2 pages on Michael to commemorate the Thriller album. I feared the absolute worst but apart from one sentence they didn't touch the pedophilia controversies. They did talk about his ever changing appearance but respectfully.
There was also an interview with Paul Ambach a famous Belgian concert promotor. He knew the family since the early 70s. He organized concerts for James Brown in Belgium. The Jacksons contacted him for a concert in Brussels but it didn't go through due to a lack of interest at the time.

Anyway the now 74 year old guy has nothing but positive things to say about Michael. He says he saw a lot of artists but MJ was the greatest. He was a better dancer than Prince and James Brown. His shows were perfected to the smallest details.

Furthermore he tells us that he finds it regrettable that the media portrays him as an unworldly figure. His contact with Michael and his entourage was always without problems. He never portrayed an attitude despite being the biggest star, always friendly and polite. He always said "mister Ambach" whenever they spoke each other.
Paul Ambach is delighted that he was able to work with the biggest star of the 20th century.

I love reading this and the one common thread you hear of everyone who knew Michael is how polite and normal he was.
 
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robotchicken14 said:
Who gives some random producer the right to override MJ's original production (which he was not pleased with, hence the lack of release), and present it as the 'definitive' version.
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It's a great point, except they've been doing that since, 2009 really. It started with This Is It. I consider all of it to be not a part of MJs canon proper; that ended with Invincible.


Xscape was just the most drastic version of the process of changing MJs art posthumously. It is in any case, remixes, but they are not called remixes.

As long as they don't consider it a proper Michael Jackson "album", then it's fair. And they don't. Nothing they've done has made it seem like that. The album MJ would've made is nothing like either album that they've put out.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
It's a great point, except they've been doing that since, 2009 really. It started with This Is It. I consider all of it to be not a part of MJs canon proper; that ended with Invincible.


Xscape was just the most drastic version of the process of changing MJs art posthumously. It is in any case, remixes, but they are not called remixes.

As long as they don't consider it a proper Michael Jackson "album", then it's fair. And they don't. Nothing they've done has made it seem like that. The album MJ would've made is nothing like either album that they've put out.
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Another Day and Xscape used the same producer. And the final product sucked ass.
 
Dorian said:
Another Day and Xscape used the same producer. And the final product sucked ass.
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And then there's Neff-U and Teddy Riley who aren't "random producers" and are people who worked with Michael and made most of the songs they've worked on better than the originals. This is why I always say that remixes are a hit or miss because although there are remixes that are better than the originals (Chicago, BTM, BoJ, Neff-U's Hollywood Tonight remix) there are also some that are a downgrade of the originals (Another Day, Xscape, APWNN, TWYLM). It's hard to predict the outcome no matter who the producer can be.
 
I'd say following what MJ was already doing and trying to finish that way is better than just doing whatever you want and changing everything for no reason. Will never understand someone being picked to work on someone else's unfinished work and just doing whatever the hell they want.
 
Nothing to do with the subject but QuestLove just answered to me about the Hot Fun in the Summertime track ft D'angelo & Mary J. Blige.
The track was supposed to be released on the Xscape album but didn't make the cut.... it seems that we might have some info/snippet on the incoming documentary about Sly Stone that is directed by QuestLove
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602080094721286144
 
merouanbal said:
Nothing to do with the subject but QuestLove just answered to me about the Hot Fun in the Summertime track ft D'angelo & Mary J. Blige.
The track was supposed to be released on the Xscape album but didn't make the cut.... it seems that we might have some info/snippet on the incoming documentary about Sly Stone that is directed by QuestLove
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602080094721286144
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I would love if that were to happen but he didn't imply that he'll put a snippet on the documentary, he only said that he's working on the documentary.
 
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