Toxicology In The Michael Jackson Manslaughter Trial

Soundmind

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Oh wow, you read AND understood 12 pages of explanations in fifteen minutes? Kudos to you, you might be quite an expert. And it is not relevant because you say so, I completely understand.

I am done talking to you. You are a troll, and a bad one for that matter. Study and come back with a better attitude.

Why r you attacking this poster? I found most of what that nurse said laughable to say the least too, I read it after the preliminary hearing and found it full of errors, and she obviously did not understand the toxicology report!!!

The article Ivy posted is much more accurate. I pointed out that 4.1ug/ml could be achieved also by one bolus injection and that his blood concentration reflects a shorter survival time than the one mentioned in the article but basically everything they mentioned in that article was of great help and informative.

Soundmind, based on three cases? Really? I mean, really?

give me one case ONE CASE of someone who abused propofol for hours or even half an hour before death and the propofol disappeared from his body.

It is you who says propofol does not leave the system that rapidly and I'm asking you where it vanished in MJ's case? WHERE?
 

QuirkyDiana00

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the expert who commented on the toxicology findings and the medical evidence stated that IF bolus injection were used MJ could not do it due to the configuration of the IV catheter . So this is a none issue at this point. We were here more worried about the IV drip because then the defence would have found it easy to blame MJ. thank God the testing of the IV system destroyed that theory.

Selma Calmes said it would be difficult, not impossible. She said that once the IV was set up, anyone could have drawn up and administered medications.
 

ivy

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Soundmind edited the message but I'll respond anyway. The assumption that all the Propofol was used is from the guidelines, which state that any unused substances should be discarded after 12 hours to minimize contamination.

I think I have seen bottles which was partially full. Murray hasn't been the doctor to follow rules and standards.


I read that months ago. If you have studied it hard, you will see quite clearly that it does not make sense because she has not taken into consideration the equipment that was actually analysed and tested. She didn't know what was found at the scene. Yes, it is irrelevant, and i've never been called a troll before.

There's no sense in insulting people. I know her, she actively followed the prelim and did that writing based on the information from prelim. IF any new information came up after she wrote that it's not her error.

as for the troll comment it's unneeded. That being said you (generally speaking) also need to understand that advocating for reasonable doubt would not help you make many friends.
 

QuirkyDiana00

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The article Ivy posted is much more accurate. I pointed out that 4.1ug/ml could be achieved also by one bolus injection and that his blood concentration refelcts a shorter survival time than the one mentioned in the article but basically everything they mentioned in that article was of great help and informative.

The shorter survival time could also be indicative of the 'benzodiazepine effect' mentioned in the AR, which would have compounded the sedating properties of propofol, possibly shortening survival time.
 

Soundmind

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Selma Calmes said it would be difficult, not impossible. She said that once the IV was set up, anyone could have drawn up and administered medications.

That's what she said :


Could the decedent have given propofol to him?

It is unknown where the propofol physically came from. It would have been difficult for the patient to administer the drugs (others besides propofol were administered) to himself, given the configuration of the IV set-up. The IV catheter was in the left leg. The injection port of the IV tubing was 13.5 cm from the tip in the catheter. He would have had to bend his knee sharply or sit up to reach the injection port and push the syringe barrel, an awkward situation, especially if sleep was the goal. If only bolus injections via a syringe were used, sleep would not have been maintained, due to the short action of propofol.


Page 11
Opinion:
Toxicology studies show a high blood concentration of propofol, as well as the presence of benzodiazepines as listed in the toxicology report. The autopsy did not show any trauma or natural disease which would cause death.

The cause of death is acute propofol intoxication. A contributing factor in the death is benzodiazepine effect.
The manner o death is homicide, based on the following:
1. Circumstances indicate that propofol and the benzodiazepines were administered by another.
2. The propofol was administered in a non-hospital setting without any appropriate medical indication.
3. The standard of care for administering propofol was not met (see anaesthesiologist consultation). Recommended equipment for patient monitoring, precision dosing, and resuscitation was not present.
4. The circumstances do not support self-administration of propofol.
Dr. Christopher Rogers. 8/19/2009.

Rogers did confirm at the preliminary hearing that Dr.Salma talked to him and explained to him how it was impossible for MJ to inject that last dose that's when Flanagan brought up the drank it theory. So yes to me it's a none issue at this point if they got one expert to testify MJ could have done it via bolus injections they would not have chosen the absord drinking theory .


There's no sense in insulting people. I know her, she actively followed the prelim and did that writing based on the information from prelim. IF any new information came up after she wrote that it's not her error
.
The toxicology report was published before the preliminary hearing, she ignored the figures mentioned in it .
 
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QuirkyDiana00

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ivy;3508607 said:
I think I have seen bottles which was partially full. Murray hasn't been the doctor to follow rules and standards.

There's no sense in insulting people. I know her, she actively followed the prelim and did that writing based on the information from prelim. IF any new information came up after she wrote that it's not her error.

as for the troll comment it's unneeded. That being said you (generally speaking) also need to understand that advocating for reasonable doubt would not help you make many friends.

Ivy, where in that paragraph did I insult the woman who wrote that blog? I said that her information is incorrect, which is fact. I did not insult her personally. On the other matter, I do not and have never advocated for doubt. I am simply looking at the evidence and discussing what the evidence COULD show. I stated before that I do not think MJ self-injected. That has always been my stance in view of the evidence. But we are discussing scientific technicalities here......what could be *deemed* possible. It is done in a totally objective way, which is how scientific analysis should be done. All of my statements are extremely reasonable and coherent - and justified. I am not here to side with the prosecution or the defence. I'm here to discuss what the scientific evidence shows only, and that is precisely what I have done. In view of this, I notice how you posted an article where the author stated the following in the comments section:

http://lawmedconsultant.com/2575/toxicology-in-the-michael-jackson-manslaughter-trial

Also, for Jackson’s weight, 60-150 mg of propofol was a general anesthesia induction dose. which one should ALWAYS assume will cause breathing to stop. So I jump on my soap box again and say that 100 mg or less of propofol, with or without lorazepam on board, could have killed Jackson…and it would not be surprising.

The author is stating that 100mg or less of propofol would kill Jackson......that is the kind of quantity that can be self-injected. The author is just being factual. This does not take into consideration other evidence of course.

Don't admonish me for scientifically debating the evidence. It's not about making friends, it's about being objective and factually correct.
 
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QuirkyDiana00

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If there was a propofol drip and it had been running, for any length of time, you would see an accumulation of propofol in the urine. We didn't see that. MJ's bladder was quite full. I'm not sure how many hours worth of urine it would equate to, but if the drip had been running you would expect to see more propofol in the urine. If the quantity of urine in the bladder indicates that it was beyond the point at which someone would feel the urge to urinate, it could suggest that this person was significantly sedated.
 

Soundmind

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The author is stating that 100mg or less of propofol would kill Jackson......that is the kind of quantity that can be self-injected. The author is just being factual. This does not take into consideration other evidence of course.

Don't admonish me for scientifically debating the evidence. It's not about making friends, it's about being objective and factually correct.

no quantity could have been self injected due to the configuration of the catheter. Rogers testified to that at the preliminary hearing and if the defense found an expert who would testify MJ could have selfinjected they would not have resorted to the absord drinking theory . Remember before the drinking theory they tried the infused propofol in the saline bag through the long tubing and FAILED , they even retested the upper part of IV system for propofol and lidocaine and found nothing .
 

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@QuirkyDiana

This is a MJ fan forum. I don't know what is your theory of what happened but any theory that might put the blame on Michael would not be well received here - regardless of how objective it is. Because as we are MJ fans we are all very much biased in our evaluations.
 

QuirkyDiana00

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Soundmind - I don't think MJ could have self-injected because I believe he was sedated. What I was trying to point out was that from what I have read in the report, Calmes said it would be difficult, not impossible. However, on this point, if Selma Calmes elaborated further to Rogers about the IV set up then I accept that. I did not hear that in the prelims. I think the coroner also presumes that MJ is sedated and so cannot self-inject.

Ivy - If you are biased in your evaluations then the evidence from the medical experts at trial will be of no interest to you. If you took the time to read what I posted, you will see that I am not swayed either way. You should be mature enough to be able to look at the evidence as it is presented, not how you want it wrapped up. As i said, and you clearly were not listening, I advocate neither for the prosecution or the defence. Now, can we get on with discussing the evidence, without the drama? Your arguments have no standing because I already stated that MJ did not self-inject. We are talking about what can be proved.

Oh, I forgot to post this from the article you posted:

Could Jackson have self injected propofol in the short time Murray claims he was out of the room? Yes. However, Jackson would not have been dead by the time Murray says he returned. He should easily have been resuscitated. If Jackson self administered propofol in his IV, the Murray remained out of the room for at least 8-10 minutes we estimate.

If you don't agree with people objectively debating the evidence, why did you post this?
 
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cinzia

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and what is this "clean IV system" discussion? What am I missing?

look to this picture

w9eckg.jpg


the long tubing (labeled F) didn't have any propofol - which makes sense because it's coming from the saline bag

the short tubing (labeled D) had propofol. So why can't we remove the syringe from the connector and put the Propofol IV to there?

That's what I understood from that article. The IV Bag / propofol was connected to where the syringe was. Murray came in realized what happened to Michael he removed the propofol connection, got a syringe put flumanezil in it and injected it and left the syringe on the Y tubing.

Can't it happen?

Yes, it most def. can happen. IF the propofol bottle is connected to IV tubing just like the NS bag was and the bottle was vented with a needle, it could easily have had a needle placed at the end of the tubing and that needle then inserted into the 'Y' port. The propofol rate of infusion would then be controlled by a roller clamp. It's piggy backed into the primary IV.
There would have to be a propofol bottle with a single ingress hole to support the theory of IV tubing. It would be easy to see.
also...
As was pointed out in another thread: (from the manufacturer)
Propofol has been shown to be compatible with the following i.v. fluids when administered into a running i.v. catheter: 5% Dextrose Injection, USP; Lactated Ringers Injection, USP; Lactated Ringers and 5% Dextrose Injection; 5% Dextrose and 0.45% Sodium Chloride Injection, USP; 5% Dextrose and 0.2% Sodium Chloride Injection, USP.
Not .9 Sodium Chloride.. Why didn't cm order Ringers or D5? or D5RL? Why infuse the propofol, however he did it, into something not listed as compatible? Just another question.

eta: I'm puzzled as to why the one syringe had all three drugs in it: Prop, Lido and Flum. Did cm inject all at the same time? the Flumazenil to counteract the benzos while the prop. went into action OR did he just grab the first handy syringe to draw up and give the Flum. when he found Michael.
 
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ivy

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^^

and we have a needle missing? right?

today from an article


Did Murray give Jackson an injection of propofol then a slow drip to keep him sedated?

Dr. Murray told the L.A.P.D. that he gave 25 mg of propofol which he pushed slowly over 3-5 minutes. He also told detectives that the drug is fast-acting and that he set up a slow drip to keep Jackson sedated. Murray is expected to argue at trial that he did not set up the drip that night. The testimony of security guard Alberto Alvarez and coroner investigator Elissa Fleak regarding a 100 ml bottle of propofol inside a slit saline bag suggests that there was, indeed, a drip set up the day Jackson died. The State could argue that the crude IV drip malfunctioned and the bottle spilled into Jackson.

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/10/conrads-contradictions/

did anyone saw that part from the interview?

2cpz5s8.jpg


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@QuirkyDiana

in which part I said "I"? Please do not put words into my mouth or make it a personal attack on me. It's about the general approach of the board. I will say it again "In a MJ fan forum any implications of putting the blame on Michael would not be appropriate" and that's why you twice had seen messages addressed to you as "stop reasonable doubt" and "troll". Perhaps you should watch your tone as well.
 

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Soundmind;3508614 said:
The toxicology report was published before the preliminary hearing, she ignored the figures mentioned in it .

QuirkyDiana00;3508598 said:
it does not make sense because she has not taken into consideration the equipment that was actually analysed and tested. She didn't know what was found at the scene.

Which is it?


QuirkyDiana00;3508540 said:
Firstly, how do you connect the IV bag (with the bottle inside) to a port that requires a needle?

Secondly, how do you get the bag and the bottle to stand up?

QuirkyDiana00;3508598 said:
I read that months ago. If you have studied it hard, you will see quite clearly that it does not make sense because she has not taken into consideration the equipment that was actually analysed and tested. She didn't know what was found at the scene. Yes, it is irrelevant, and i've never been called a troll before.

Also, which is it?
Study hard or don't know that a Propofol bottle can be hung, as the irrelevant nurse pointed out?


I see that the user realized in the meantime and edited the message to point out that he or she is in fact upset with what I said. It ended with “Yes, it’s irrelevant.” A normal person would of found it offensive before trying to make a point.

My definition of a troll here is someone who is not an MJ fan. I’m also not trying to make any friends amongst non fans. And I’m not taking it back either. It is my personal opinion that this user is not a Michael fan.

I’ll have to get back to the other info tomorrow, it’s getting really late here.
 

Soundmind

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Dr. Murray told the L.A.P.D. that he gave 25 mg of propofol which he pushed slowly over 3-5 minutes. He also told detectives that the drug is fast-acting and that he set up a slow drip to keep Jackson sedated.

nope, he did not say he set up a slow drip THAT DAY to keep MJ sedated. He was talking in general in that paragraph.

But there is no doubt that paragraph is VERY INCRIMINATING to him , he at some point told the investigators he used to inject a 50mg daily of propofol at first then use a drip to maintain sedation and he did so for two months and then realised MJ formed addiction to it.

My opinion he did not do that , my opinion he claimed that because he believed this claim would give credibility to the addiction theory, so the small amounts in the last day would be used in his advantage instead of admitting that was taking place everyday and nothing changed in that last day. However, this statement is no doubt the most incriminating evidence that surfaced so far in this case against him, period.
 

smoothlugar

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I think all of the defense theories are simply impossible. Both the "self-ingestion" or "self-injection" would need the leaving of fingerprints on the syringe to extract the propofol. No fingerprints, no ground for the theory at all.

The lorazepam pills, the newest theory, remains impossible as well since according to Murray himself at 7am that day Michael did not leave his bedroom to go to the bathroom (where the lorazepam was, so simply, no viability at all).

.Remember before the drinking theory they tried the infused propofol in the saline bag through the long tubing and FAILED , they even retested the upper part of IV system for propofol and lidocaine and found nothing .

Just want to remind you that from the very begining Chernoff in the media was talking about the "self-injection" theory explaining that the anestehesiology report stated that it would have been difficutl but not impossible. However, at the same time the defense were trying the "self-ingestion" theory with the retesting of the syringes for quantities. It is in their motions, Walgren said at the time the quantities in the syringes would be irrelevant to determine the cause of death, but Flanagan insisted they would show the "how".

Anyway, all those theories so creative are finished now for something simple: no fingerprints of the victim on syringes, so no self-administration in any way. (But just wanted to state that the self-ingestion was something that though not fully commented by defense until the preliminary hearing they were after for long ago...).
 

ivy

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nope, he did not say he set up a slow drip THAT DAY to keep MJ sedated. He was talking in general in that paragraph.

But there is no doubt that paragraph is VERY INCRIMINATING to him , he at some point told the investigators he used to inject a 50mg daily of propofol at first then use a drip to maintain sedation and he did so for two months and then realised MJ formed addiction to it.

My opinion he did not do that , my opinion he claimed that because he believed this claim would give credibility to the addiction theory, so the small amounts in the last day would be used in his advantage instead of admitting that was taking place everyday and nothing changed in that last day. However, this statement is no doubt the most incriminating evidence that surfaced so far in this case against him, period.

why would that day be any different? he clearly states that to make him "continue to sleep" he needs a slow drip. so why would he only give that injection and think that he will be able to continue to sleep and be comfortable enough to leave him especially if he's not snoring (in deep sleep) and has a tendency to jump and wake up?

another important thing I believe when he did this interview he thought that the cops had the bags. he's surprised in the end that they don't. so when thinking the cops had everything he might be confessing to an injection and a slow drip (that he thought the cops knew)
 

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I think the presence of the apparatus that Alvarez saw and Fleak collected plus Murray's own admission is strong evidence that Murray did indeed use it as a makeshift IV drip, if not on that particular night, then on one of the days immediately before. It's not there just to be there -- there's no reason to dispose of a used propofol bottle by cutting open an empty saline bag, putting the bottle inside, and just leaving them both hanging from the pole. It was also an apparatus that Murray specifically directed Alvarez to dispose of, while leaving the other bag of saline behind.

I also suspect that when Murray spoke to the police, he believed, as the one in the room with the most medical knowledge, that he was going to be able to snow the cops and make the whole thing go away. Perhaps he was arrogant enough to think that his story didn't have to be medically sound, because the police would never be able to second guess him.
 

elusive moonwalker

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Re the 200mg of diprivan. thunder saw it on one of the t.v shows. a person claiming to rep the d.a spoke outside the courthouse and gave that figurere. Was any long tubing with diprivan found in it found? cause thats a question inregards to that night. wheres the tube
 

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Re the 200mg of diprivan. thunder saw it on one of the t.v shows. a person claiming to rep the d.a spoke outside the courthouse and gave that figurere. Was any long tubing with diprivan found in it found? cause thats a question inregards to that night. wheres the tube

I tried to find a better image so we could look at the whole iv stand, I may be mistaken but it looks to me like there are two long tubes, one is connected to the saline but what is the other one for, is it just disconnected and left hanging there? We need to find a long shot of the image.

14schoi.jpg
 

Soundmind

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why would that day be any different? he clearly states that to make him "continue to sleep" he needs a slow drip. so why would he only give that injection and think that he will be able to continue to sleep and be comfortable enough to leave him especially if he's not snoring (in deep sleep) and has a tendency to jump and wake up?

another important thing I believe when he did this interview he thought that the cops had the bags. he's surprised in the end that they don't. so when thinking the cops had everything he might be confessing to an injection and a slow drip (that he thought the cops knew)

it was not different !!! that's the point , there was nothing different from previous nights contrary to what he claimed. That what he was doing, that how he was sedating him. It's Murray who wants people to think that was not a usual night .


snoring, deep sleep, enough period watched then left those were part of his fictional story . The expert in the toxicology report talked about bolus injection , right? that what she talked about, that what they believed killed MJ OK , if you believe that then Murray was present in the room , he did not leave .


you disregarded everything he said and continue to quote him and base your theories on what he said ? how could have he blamed MJ if he did not say I left the room ?

I have perimortem abraisons , I have an expert talking about bolus injections , I have someone who heard coughing and I still insist he left him long enough and returned and found him dead !!!!!!!


Again regarding the 25mg and slow drip, read it carefully, he was not talking about what he did that day , but how he planned to sedate him longer.
 

ivy

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it was not different !!! that's the point , there was nothing different from previous nights contrary to what he claimed. That what he was doing, that how he was sedating him. It's Murray who wants people to think that was not a usual night .


snoring, deep sleep, enough period watched then left those were part of his fictional story . The expert in the toxicology report talked about bolus injection , right? that what she talked about, that what they believed killed MJ OK , if you believe that then Murray was present in the room , he did not leave .


you disregarded everything he said and continue to quote him and base your theories on what he said ? how could have he blamed MJ if he did not say I left the room ?

I have perimortem abraisons , I have an expert talking about bolus injections , I have someone who heard coughing and I still insist he left him long enough and returned and found him dead !!!!!!!


Again regarding the 25mg and slow drip, read it carefully, he was not talking about what he did that day , but how he planned to sedate him longer.

my theory? I really do not have a theory or the medical understanding to form a theory. I'm just trying to make sense of what is being said and written.

btw - I think we need to read between the lines of what Murray said.

For example he mentions when Michael asked for popofol he asked Michael what about the rehearsal don't you have to get up around a certain time (around 12:00) to go to rehearsal. That's such an unneeded question to ask if he was going to give a bolus injection - the effects would be minutes

Murray says Michael said "it doesn't matter when I get up" and Murray switched to Propofol. So again that sounds like - even we believe Murray- Michael hadn't slept all night (only slept 15 minutes) and by that time he was wanting propofol and aiming a long sleep. He was aiming to sleep past 12:00 and even perhaps past 7:00 PM when he goes to rehearsals - as he said he would cancel the rehearsal.

To me that again sounds like the explanation of an IV.

Add to that the fact that Murray was on the phone, simply strengthen the fact that Michael was sleep.
 

elusive moonwalker

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Travis payne said he was on his way to mjs house to meet to have lunch before going to rehearsals together
 

Soundmind

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btw - I think we need to read between the lines of what Murray said.

great


For example he mentions when Michael asked for popofol he asked Michael what about the rehearsal don't you have to get up around a certain time (around 12:00) to go to rehearsal. That's such an unneeded question to ask if he was going to give a bolus injection - the effects would be minutes

true , but from a medical stand point how could have he explained giving someone a bolus injection of propofol at a time MJ usually would be preparying to go down stairs and had his lunch with his kids !!!!!?



Murray says Michael said "it doesn't matter when I get up" and Murray switched to Propofol. So again that sounds like - even we believe Murray- Michael hadn't slept all night (only slept 15 minutes) and by that time he was wanting propofol and aiming a long sleep. He was aiming to sleep past 12:00 and even perhaps past 7:00 PM when he goes to rehearsals - as he said he would cancel the rehearsal.

To me that again sounds like the explanation of an IV.

You assume here Murray was telling the truth and MJ did not sleep all night , right !!!? I believe he did, I believe he wanted Murray to awake him at noon , and I believe he planned to have lunch with his kids at 12:30 pm as usual , and I believe all that sleepless night was a fabricated lie to blame MJ, to say he forced me, he begged for his milk he was mentally addicted , to justify why would he inject propofol into someone who was already sleeping for hours and his time to get up approached. I believe he always sedated him using lorazepam and used propofol immediatley before awakining only to decieve MJ into thinking he was being sedated all night using propofol. That's what Murray does not want people to know.

I'm of those who believe what happened that day was identical to what was taking place everyday and that's how Murray was sedating MJ since day one .

Adams describtion of Murray's actions and motivations is proof of the things this guy was able to do to get the money !!!!


Again and again, he bough boxes of lorazepam and midazolam on April 30th, why?


MJ chose proporol because propofol was not addictive, rapid effect, rapid awakining, within hour no effects would have been observed on him , only disadvantage was the risk factor, so he hired a doctor (wanted two actually)

Murray bought lorazepam, midaolam and FLUMAZENIL as early as April. Highly addictive, cause halluciation, a hot mess mentally and physically, depression still long sedation unlike propofol and less risky and needed less monitoring efforts .

OK, MJ no longer wanted propofol , or to be more precise sacrifiesed all the advantages of taking propofol and agreed "reluctantly" to take the benzos

What was then the point of taking BOTH propofol and benzos ? I know it's normal to give them both in ICU , but I'm talking about MJ here the benzos diverse effects diminished the very same advantages MJ expected from using propofol , but the RISK factor became much higher using both.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

I'm reading between the lines , and always telling myself WHY MURRAY SAID THIS , what he wanted to achieve from this comment , and always have in my mind he WAS LYING , the interview was scripted , behind every LIE there was something he was trying to hide or something he knew would be exposed and trying to put his own spin on it.


It makes no sense from a medical stand point to give someone who slept for hours and was expected to get up minutes later propofol , so innocently you would assume he wanted to sedate him using a drip later , but if indeed MJ slept for hours as indicated by the urine , by the lorazepam concentration ...etc , why would he start to use propofol that late?

when you look at the evidence, at the testimonies you might be able to have a logical explanation for that bolus injection.


Everything in that interview was a lie , there was no one trustful information in that statement.
 

xthunderx2

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^^

and we have a needle missing? right?

today from an article


Did Murray give Jackson an injection of propofol then a slow drip to keep him sedated?

Dr. Murray told the L.A.P.D. that he gave 25 mg of propofol which he pushed slowly over 3-5 minutes. He also told detectives that the drug is fast-acting and that he set up a slow drip to keep Jackson sedated. Murray is expected to argue at trial that he did not set up the drip that night. The testimony of security guard Alberto Alvarez and coroner investigator Elissa Fleak regarding a 100 ml bottle of propofol inside a slit saline bag suggests that there was, indeed, a drip set up the day Jackson died. The State could argue that the crude IV drip malfunctioned and the bottle spilled into Jackson.

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/10/conrads-contradictions/

did anyone saw that part from the interview?

2cpz5s8.jpg


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@QuirkyDiana

in which part I said "I"? Please do not put words into my mouth or make it a personal attack on me. It's about the general approach of the board. I will say it again "In a MJ fan forum any implications of putting the blame on Michael would not be appropriate" and that's why you twice had seen messages addressed to you as "stop reasonable doubt" and "troll". Perhaps you should watch your tone as well.

THANK YOU Ivy,,,,,I dont understand WHY it is SO difficult for people to understand that Murray DID IN FACT have Michael on a drip. Just because it doesn't match up with THEIR theory's it is considered NOT true. Some people that are posting in here as though THEY have medical knowledge are misinforming people. READING things for months about propofol DOES NOT make one a medical professional. And those doing so NEED to STOP. People get all angry when what it is they THINK should be the truth IS NOT the truth ...and they will go to any length to prove it, It gets qiute sickening. Some have ALREADY admitted at one point that they DO NOT have any medical credentials...therefore they SHOULD NOT be trying to post as they do.
 

Soundmind

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did Dr.Calmes in the toxicology report say MJ could not have overdosed himself using a drip ? NOPE, did she even mention an IV DRIP ? NOOOOOOO , ALL THEY TALKED ABOUT WAS BOLUS INJECTIONS and the coroner based on her statement ruled the death homicide indicating MJ could not have self injected A BOLUS INJECTION .

I don't know why people always ALWAYS ignore that .
 

xthunderx2

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Re the 200mg of diprivan. thunder saw it on one of the t.v shows. a person claiming to rep the d.a spoke outside the courthouse and gave that figurere. Was any long tubing with diprivan found in it found? cause thats a question inregards to that night. wheres the tube

yes you are correct I did see that person it was right after court had let out and I was watching one of those stations and he came on camera and the news people were speaking to him and said that there was NO way Michael self injected because the first injection would of put him to sleep and he never would of had enough time to give himself the second to OD himself on propofol.
 

xthunderx2

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did Dr.Calmes in the toxicology report say MJ could not have overdosed himself using a drip ? NOPE, did she even mention an IV DRIP ? NOOOOOOO , ALL THEY TALKED ABOUT WAS BOLUS INJECTIONS and the coroner based on her statement ruled the death homicide indicating MJ could not have self injected A BOLUS INJECTION .

I don't know why people always ALWAYS ignore that .

yes they talked about bolus injections...possibly meaning...as stated there was no way that Michael could of self administered that injection himself...he would of fell asleep instantly.....BUT....a drip would of kept him asleep. As I have stated before...I DO believe that the FIRST dose WAS by bolus ,,administered by Murray,,,,however I also believe that Murray kept him asleep with his makeshift drip;
 

ivy

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You assume here Murray was telling the truth and MJ did not sleep all night , right !!!?

perhaps you should chill a little ?

I never said I believed Murray to be telling the truth - I don't. All I'm saying is even if we take what he said as truth, he's multiple times mentioning an IV.

and very similar to you - combined with the phone calls I do believe that Michael was asleep during all the time.
 

Bonnie Blue

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Actually that quote from murray's interview about the initial injection and drip of propofol does read as though murray is answering the detective's question about how prop is usually administered, not necessarily how it was done at 10.40am. Earlier in the interview murray actually says he injected the 25mg of prop (the only amount he admits to giving) by slow injection - 3-5mins. He does not mention setting up a drip on that partic day. I'm not supporting any theory here, i'm just typing what i read from the interview transcripts.
 
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